Topic: Field recorder + mics for producing a CD of flute music?

[Justinasia]

Hi everyone. I am new to this forum, and hoping that you guys can help me out with your advice. I'm a musician living in Japan. I play the Japanese bamboo flute, which has subtle a subtle sound, complex tone colour. I want to make a CD to sell publicly, some of which to be duets with another player of said flute. For duets, we sit on the floor and play can play quite close together if needed. (tips on positioning also appreciated!) I want to record in a countryside temple as I expect a more natural sound than a studio - some natural reverb, and acceptable background noise (bells birds and no traffic, no problem). Too inconvenient/expensive to have a pro come with us to record, so I want to try to do it myself. With no experience, this will be difficult but I am prepared to learn. Could you guys help e understand what I will need?

For a recorder, I am thinking about these:
Korg MR-1, Fostex FR-2LE and Sony PCM D50.

If I don't need more than 2 mics, will any of the above be high enough sound quality (with external mics) to make a CD? (I don't need top quality but I want it to sound non-amateur, acceptable as a proper CD.) How do they compare to each other in terms of sound quality?

If you think I need more than 2 mics, should I consider the Edirol R-44? Or could I use my old microtrack usefully for 2 mics while one of these better devices for the other 2?

As for mics, I have the SONY ECM-MS957. Is that totally unacceptable for a proper CD? Someone is also suggesting I buy DPA 4060 pair. They look great for carrying around, but would they be good enough for this CD? If both of these are unacceptable I think I should better hire some mics rather than spend too much.

Many thanks
Justin

[shaggy]

Not sure if I can be helpful.  I live in the Tokyo area and have alot of portable gear and mics well suited for this task.  I would be happy to help for the cost of transportation and a small fee.  I PM'd you but if you want to get a hold of me...just email 'dwonk' at hotmail.

[Justinasia]

Hi Shaggy
Thanks very much for your PM. I tried to reply by my reply function is not working (gives me 2 separate boxes for verifying letter pictures but even filling them out never lets me send the PM). Have sent you an email.

In the meantime still eager to hear people's opinions, especially on the DPA 4060 and Sony PCM D50.

Justin

[WiFiJeff]

I have not used the Fostex, but I like both the Korg M1 and Sony D50.  The biggest drawback to the Korg is that its internal batteries have a rather short runtime, anything over 1 1/2 hours and you risk having it die on you.  It also runs really alarningly hot.  But if you are using an external power supply or the wall wart you should be okay.  The biggest soound difference will be from the mics, I think you will find lots of variation and should listen to see what sound you like best.  The DPA4060s are about the best, in my opinion, for tiny mics, but if you are using a mic stand and large setup you might want to listen to full size mics like the DPA4006.  The only reason I can see to use more than two mics is to do surround sound, I have not tried that but am tempted by the Josephson C700S or Soundfield (both VERY pricy, not that even the DPA4060s are exactly cheap).

Jeff

[shaggy]

As far as micing techniques and depending on the type of sound you are after, a direct as opposed to ambient style recording, the technique will vary.  With the DPAs placed in a baffle or jecklin disc type set up, you can get a great ambient style recording to capture more of the natural setting you seem to be after.  Those recordings play back well on headphones but are a bit thin for speaker style listening.  IF it is more a direct sound you are after and if it a small group of players, maybe a close mic'd coincident type set up (if done in MS it can mixed in post to taste).  Spaced if you are truly a pair of players only, maybe stepped back a meter or two.  With four tracks, I can imagine using a lav for each instrument on tracks 1/2 and mixing in a pair of card or omni outriggers near by on 3/4 would also give alot of flexibility in post.  I sent a email to you just now...

[guysonic]

Hi everyone. I am new to this forum, and hoping that you guys can help me out with your advice. I'm a musician living in Japan. I play the Japanese bamboo flute, which has subtle a subtle sound, complex tone colour. I want to make a CD to sell publicly, some of which to be duets with another player of said flute. For duets, we sit on the floor and play can play quite close together if needed. (tips on positioning also appreciated!) I want to record in a countryside temple as I expect a more natural sound than a studio - some natural reverb, and acceptable background noise (bells birds and no traffic, no problem). Too inconvenient/expensive to have a pro come with us to record, so I want to try to do it myself. With no experience, this will be difficult but I am prepared to learn. Could you guys help e understand what I will need?

For a recorder, I am thinking about these:
Korg MR-1, Fostex FR-2LE and Sony PCM D50.

If I don't need more than 2 mics, will any of the above be high enough sound quality (with external mics) to make a CD? (I don't need top quality but I want it to sound non-amateur, acceptable as a proper CD.) How do they compare to each other in terms of sound quality?

If you think I need more than 2 mics, should I consider the Edirol R-44? Or could I use my old microtrack usefully for 2 mics while one of these better devices for the other 2?

As for mics, I have the SONY ECM-MS957. Is that totally unacceptable for a proper CD? Someone is also suggesting I buy DPA 4060 pair. They look great for carrying around, but would they be good enough for this CD? If both of these are unacceptable I think I should better hire some mics rather than spend too much.

Many thanks
Justin

Suggest my headworn/HRTF baffled DSM-1S/H that is perfectly powered by Sony D50 for recording very natural stereo-surround of exactly what is heard from your perspective.  Specifications and various HRTF array mounting/use suggestions at: www.sonicstudios.com/dsm.htm

Lowest costing array configuration is to simply headwear these mics for recording your solo instrument, and any other instruments when working in a close group.  The results of this mic/method are consistently more than good enough for highest definition audio projects.

FWIW DPA 4060 series (these are essentially well made lapel mics with unnatural sounding hyped response characteristics)and most directional/omni types of mic arrays are NOT consistently natural sounding to most accustomed to hearing pure acoustic instruments sounds. 

And there's a general lack of wide variety of acoustic instrument sample recordings made with these under numerous enough varying working circumstances for having adequate idea for what to expect if trying these in your situation.

However, there's a multitude of acoustic instrument recordings using my HRTF DSM mics on page www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm with full ambient working condition and gear notes for having confidence to having found the best suited mic/array method for your purposes.


IMAGE OF DSM MIC + 'STREET-STYLE' HEADBAND MOUNT MOST SUITABLE FOR INDOOR SESSIONS

[Justinasia]

Hi Guysonic
Thanks about those "headworn/HRTF baffled DSM-1S/H". Does anyone else have opinions on those vrs the DPA 4060? Also if you think the DSM are better, then which ones? It's difficult for me to judge as the recording are different from mine and I am inexperienced. There are some clips of my music here:

http://justinshakuhachi.googlepages.com/gakki

By the way I can't wear the mics on my head, as I am the one playing the music.

Thanks very much
Justin

[TNJazz]

Not sure if I can be helpful.  I live in the Tokyo area and have alot of portable gear and mics well suited for this task.  I would be happy to help for the cost of transportation and a small fee.  I PM'd you but if you want to get a hold of me...just email 'dwonk' at hotmail.

I would imagine this is going to be your best bet.  You'll probably want someone running the gear while you're playing anyway.  I'm pretty sure his gear will be more than up to the task and will likely exceed the results of either the Sonic or the DPA mics.

Just my .02

[ghellquist]

There are in mind two parts to this story. One is about equipment, the other about the operator. As you deifnitely know, a really good flute player can make a not-so-good flut sound fantastic. So one part of the story would be for the person doing the recordings (you) to acquire knowledge and experience. Only way in my knowledge is to go out there and test a lot. It would help if you could get a mentor or teacher to help out.

One part of the experience things is for you to create an ideal sound image you are striving for. Listen to many different recordings and decide on which sound you really preferr. Keep this image as a reference when you look for the equipment.

Second part, the equipment. You will find that recording this kind of music is quite different from the typical rock concert. Things like the noise floor of the mics really comes into play, not an influence at all in a rock setting. I really like the DPA4060, but to me they are on the borderline when it comes to noise floor. It might come into play, or not. You really have to try it out. My guess though is that you would like to go with a pair of cardioid mics instead of omnis. These take in a little less of the room (but then again, you need to work towards your own sound ideal). A typical setup is called ORTF (google that). And typical mics might be Neumann KM184 or Schoeps MK4 (MK4 is the capsule, they mate into a head amp, CMC6). There are some at a lower price, but again, these might be on the borderline of acceptable in your application.

One point though. You will record with two mics, direct to stereo. There will never be any need for more in your application.

Basically, what I try to say about mics is that go ahead and rent them. Don´t buy mics until you know more about how they will work in your actual useage. Renting or borrowing from friends saves you from beeing sorry twice. (First by getting the wrong thing, and then paying for the right ones. Better then sorry only once, when you pay for the right thing).

As far as recorders, noise is an important factor here as well. Some recorders has rather bad internal microphone preamps. You sort of get what you pay for as a mic preamp costs more and either takes more place or draws more current. You can get around this by having an external preamp and then running a simpler recording machine. Or you could get a more expensive machine with better builtin preamp. Again, you really need to test it out yourself in your application.

// Gunnar

[guysonic]

Hi Guysonic
Thanks about those "headworn/HRTF baffled DSM-1S/H". Does anyone else have opinions on those vrs the DPA 4060? Also if you think the DSM are better, then which ones? It's difficult for me to judge as the recording are different from mine and I am inexperienced. There are some clips of my music here:

http://justinshakuhachi.googlepages.com/gakki

By the way I can't wear the mics on my head, as I am the one playing the music.

Thanks very much
Justin

Actually headworn gives exactly the instrument sound you hear while playing. 

So, if you like what you hear when playing, then the HRTF headworn mics records exactly that perspective.

[Justinasia]

Thanks everyone for all your comments. I am finding it very useful. Also thanks very much Shaggy, I am really excited about that possibility and greatly appreciate that. I am also still interested in the posibility of getting my own gear, as I sometimes collect field recordings of other players around the country, me in different settings, and I would like to gather other recordings when abroad too. I won't be able to get too heavily into this hobby though as being a musician I don't make money to get more than a little gear!

It seems like you guys think the Sony PCM D50 will be good enough for this kind of project right? Then even if I would hire mics for this project, for future projects I am still interested in having mics. The DSM and the DPA 4060 sound exciting because they will not add much to my luggage. I would love to hear more about these.

Things like the noise floor of the mics really comes into play, not an influence at all in a rock setting. I really like the DPA4060, but to me they are on the borderline when it comes to noise floor. It might come into play, or not.

Which of the 2 has a lower noise floor? I am actually not worried about getting the most acurate-to-life sound, but just the nicest sound result. I know that must be very subjective so difficult to talk about. But at least the noise is clearly not wanted. I think for a good sound for this instrument, the mics do not want to be up close, for example up at one foot away from my mouth would be really too close I think. With that in mind, do you know which of these two mics would be have less noise?

To give you an idea of the instrument (just hand held camera recording someone did of me):
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=GqQu8-k_THs

Also I would not want to wear the mics myself (as the player) because I think that would give an unnatural result as far as how someone listening would usually hear the instrument. (If on my own then I might have to improvise a cloth "head" to put between them I guess?) And, since most people will listen with speakers, I am more concerned about the sound quality itself rather than accurate 3D imaging. On their own as mics, which is better of the two?

(I also really like the fact that the DPA 4060 are supposed to be resistant to humidity. It sounds like mics have to be really taken care of about humidity from what I have read these last couple of days, and I was worried about that as Japanese summers are extremely humid, plus if I buy mics myself they will be traveling with me in my rucksack in not always "civilized" conditions).

Many thanks
Justin

[Mike R.]

Hi Justin,

I was wondering if you are playing shakuhachi or one of the various sideblown flutes...

I have recorded shakuhachi many times...   concerts and my own practice.

The Sony recorder is probably fine, you might like the Fostex FR-2LE as it accepts XLR microphone cables, a better choice than the stereo mini-plug of the Sony.  What I hear is that the built-in microphones on the Sony are decent, but your flexibility for positioning is rather limited.

With the Sony, your mic position will pretty much have to be facing you (and your duet partner) equidistant.  You can vary how far the recorder is from both of you to get more or less of the room ambiance (greater distance == more room, closer == less of the room sound).  This sort of X-Y positioning is actually very good for acoustic streo reproduction, so it's a limitation, but not that serious.

I seem to recall the Sony (with mics) costs about the same as the Fostex, but then you need to purchase microphones.  If you want to go that route, you will also need mic stands and cables, just things to consider.  But if you go that route you will have a lot more microphone positioning flexibility.  You could, if you wanted, position a microphone fairly close to each of you as you play.  (Two close-up mics are probably a worse choice than X-Y!)

If you want to also pick out microphones, I recommend starting out with something not that expensive.  A pair of relatively inexpensive mics like the Shure SM-57 or 58 positioned well can make a better sounding recording than something expensive positioned poorly.  Your first recording sessions _will_ be a learning experience!  Even though it's a flute, Shakuhachi does not have a huge frequency range.  Don't feel like you must have microphones that are flat 20-20,000 Hz.  The biggest problem with those Shure mics is the low output of the dynamic mechanism.

Generally you will find that closer microphones give you a more analytical, dry, clinical sound.  Too close and you get breath and finger sound.  As the microphones move farther than the players, you get more of the room sound which can be either good or bad depending on your room.

For What It's Worth (not that much, really)  I mostly use Audio-Technica AE5100 or Beyerdynamic M-88TG microphones.  The AT mics work better with my recorder, but I like the M88s for a dynamic mic.

have fun!
-mike

[F.O.Bean]

I say rent Shaggy

[flintstone]

Nobody mentioned Wingfield Audio yet, so, without further ado:

Stephanie Wingfield is a professional musician (cello) who also sells portable recorders through her website, http://www.wingfieldaudio.com

Stephanie's interest in small recorders comes from a musician's need to record practice sessions and performances.  Her web site has samples of live acoustic music performances made with most small recorders available today, and Stephanie has brief reviews of several recorders, too. 

Using sound quality and usability as the criteria, Stephanie gives the $1800 Sony PCM-D1 five stars, with the Sony PCM-D50 and Marantz PMD620 at the next level, 4 1/2 stars. 

Stephanie is available for consultation by phone or email.  A brief consult (up to 15 minutes) is free, more in depth probably for a fee.

Flintstone

[Red Boink]

I'd give another vote for the sony pcm D1.  It sounds good and is easy to operate.  They are selling on ebay used in the $600 to 900 range.