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Offline landshark

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Can you clip a microphone?
« on: April 03, 2007, 11:36:16 PM »
Hi all! 

No idea if this is the right forum, but I have a question.  I recently recorded a friend's band, using some new gear for the first time.  Specifically, I was using a pair of AKG 391's (not new) with a Denecke PS2 for phantom power (new) to feed my Korg MR1 (new).  Had bass rolloff at 75 hz set on the mics, not the -10 db pad.

Here's the issue - I recorded in DSD and set my levels so my max was about -6 db, was staying around -12 db on average, and so I thought all was good.  Now I'm listening to the take and am a little worried.  On the bass drum beats, it sounds distorted on the louder beats, and when I look at the waveform in Soundforge, there's a max level beyond which the waveform doesn't go.  So, no clips from the Korg, but it seems like I clipped the mics - is this possible, and if so, what did I do wrong?  Anyone know if you usually need to use the -10 db pad on the 391 mics?

And if I did clip the mics, is there anything I can do in post to fix my error?  Either in Soundforge or the Korg Audiogate software? 

Man, I hate learning the hard way.....thanks in advance!

Mike
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 09:00:27 AM by landshark »
AKG 461's / 463's OR Senn MKH 8040's > MR1000 (Busman mod) or Shure FP24 (aka MixPre) > MR1 (open)
Coresounds Binaurals > CChurch 9100 > MR1 OR AKG CK1x/2x/3x > Deneke P20 > MR1 (low profile)

Offline jkbyram

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Re: Can you brickwall / clip a microphone?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2007, 12:45:23 AM »
Hi all! 

No idea if this is the right forum, but I have a question.  I recently recorded a friend's band, using some new gear for the first time.  Specifically, I was using a pair of AKG 391's (not new) with a Denecke PS2 for phantom power (new) to feed my Korg MR1 (new).  Had bass rolloff at 75 hz set on the mics, not the -10 db pad.

Here's the issue - I recorded in DSD and set my levels so my max was about -6 db, was staying around -12 db on average, and so I thought all was good.  Now I'm listening to the take and am a little worried.  On the bass drum beats, it sounds distorted on the louder beats, and when I look at the waveform in Soundforge, there's a max level beyond which the waveform doesn't go.  So, no clips from the Korg, but it seems like I clipped the mics - is this possible, and if so, what did I do wrong?  Anyone know if you usually need to use the -10 db pad on the 391 mics?

And if I did clip the mics, is there anything I can do in post to fix my error?  Either in Soundforge or the Korg Audiogate software? 

Man, I hate learning the hard way.....thanks in advance!

Mike

learning the hard way is the best way to get it right in the long run +T for for the effort), sorry i dont have any good advice.

Offline atxwolfattack

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Re: Can you brickwall / clip a microphone?
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2007, 01:00:00 AM »
maybe post a sample of the recording so people can hear it.

I am no pro at this stuff, but i have been learning lately. It could possibly be the high sound pressure level (SPL) of the bass. Could you personally "feel" the bass being very prominent when you were at the show? I do not know how those specific mics deal with such situations but maybe someone else who has them on here can help you.

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Can you clip a microphone?
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2007, 12:18:11 PM »
yes..you can certainly overload a mic. 
they are all rated for certain SPLs.  exceed those...and viola!  crap!

Offline landshark

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Re: Can you clip a microphone?
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2007, 12:33:06 PM »
I should also mention that I recorded the same band, in the same venue using the same mics (akg 391's) from the same mic position about three weeks earlier.  The differences were that I was running them into a MicroTrak and using the MT for phantom rather than the Denecke PS2.  So, SPLs on the mics should not have been an issue.  Max SPL on the AKGs is supposed to be 142ish, so it shoudl be ok...
AKG 461's / 463's OR Senn MKH 8040's > MR1000 (Busman mod) or Shure FP24 (aka MixPre) > MR1 (open)
Coresounds Binaurals > CChurch 9100 > MR1 OR AKG CK1x/2x/3x > Deneke P20 > MR1 (low profile)

Offline wbrisette

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Re: Can you clip a microphone?
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2007, 04:24:01 PM »
I should also mention that I recorded the same band, in the same venue using the same mics (akg 391's) from the same mic position about three weeks earlier.  The differences were that I was running them into a MicroTrak and using the MT for phantom rather than the Denecke PS2.  So, SPLs on the mics should not have been an issue.  Max SPL on the AKGs is supposed to be 142ish, so it shoudl be ok...

Yeah, while you CAN overload the mic, it is more likely that you have overloaded the analog stage of the recorder. Your best option in this case is to reduce the input by way of some pads. Shure and Audio Technica make some very nice ones that go inline. You'll need two of them, one for each mic.

Wayne
Mics: Earthworks SR-77 (MP), QTC-1 (MP)

Editing: QSC RMX2450, MOTU 2408 MK3, Earthworks Sigma 6.2

Offline landshark

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Re: Can you clip a microphone?
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2007, 06:27:27 PM »
I think I used the onboard mic pre.  Setup was 391's to PS2 straight to MR-1.  I'm not certain whether I had the switch set for line or for mic.

I guess one thing that is confusing me is that the MR-1 levels never clipped (or went above -6ish db).  If the analog stage mic pre's can't handle more than -6 db without clipping, why do the levels go to 0db?  What am I missing?  What is the record level measuring if it's not measuring the full input signal coming from the mics?

Note that I wasn't using an external mic pre, just the mics themselves with phantom power.  I know some mics put out a "hotter" signal than others, and mine might have been very hot, but what I don't understand is why that didn't show up as clipping levels on the recording level meter.  Can anyone comment on whether the AKG 391's are relatively hot compared to other mics?  I didn't think they were, but....

If the opposite were true, that the internal circuitry of the mics themselves were somehow being overloaded and THAT was the source of the clipping, I woudn't have expected to see any clipping on the MR-1 levels, since the signal that arrived never exceeded the MR-1 "clipped" level.  However, if the MR-1 was the source of the clipping, I would have expected to see the MR-1 levels clipping, which would have prompted me to turn down the recording levels.

What I hope is NOT the case is that somehow the MR-1 recording levels are actually measuring the level put OUT by the onboard mic pres, rather than the levels being put INTO the mic pre.  If that were the case, I could see a "hot" signal coming in, the onboard mic pre's clipping the signal at -6 db, and so the recording meters never registering a level above -6 db.  Of course, this seems odd to me because if the onboard mic pre's can't output more than -6 db, then why have the meters go to 0db?  And, if the record levels being measured are what's coming OUT of the mic pre, how the heck do I make sure the signal going INTO the mic pre isn't too hot?

I'm slowly, painfully learning how to use my gear, and really appreciating all your help!!!

Mike
AKG 461's / 463's OR Senn MKH 8040's > MR1000 (Busman mod) or Shure FP24 (aka MixPre) > MR1 (open)
Coresounds Binaurals > CChurch 9100 > MR1 OR AKG CK1x/2x/3x > Deneke P20 > MR1 (low profile)

Offline Mike R.

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Re: Can you clip a microphone?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2007, 11:00:50 AM »

There is another recent thread in this section, someone asks "what does brickwalling sound like?".  There's a good chance the info there is related to this question as well.

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Offline DSatz

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Re: Can you clip a microphone?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2007, 11:04:32 AM »
landshark, you ask many good questions. Some of them are technical while others seem more existential, but they're still good questions in my book.

One of your more existential questions was, in essence, "Why do equipment manufacturers sell us things that don't work together as we expect them to?" It's important to realize that just because "they" sell us stuff that looks all proper and well-packaged, we must still maintain some caution and know the limits of the equipment we work with. A microphone's or recorder's level of sonic quality may be one thing; its compatibility with some other given piece of equipment under specific circumstances may be something else again.

To zoom in on one particular situation that may well be affecting you now: Your Korg MR-1 recorder's mike inputs have a specified maximum signal level of -27 dBV. That's only about 45 mV, and it means that regardless of gain settings or meter readings, most good microphones not only can, but WILL overload the circuitry at the microphone inputs if you try to record loud sounds. A typical studio condenser microphone puts out 45 mV at sound pressure levels somewhere in the 85 - 90 decibel range. But 100 dB sound pressure levels are common in live recording situations, and your equipment must handle them without overloading.

Confirming the fear you expressed, unfortunately: Your recorder's level meters almost certainly read the signals at the unit's internal analog-to-digital converter--after the built-in mike preamp circuitry has already distorted them. It's that mike preamp (input) circuit which has the low overload threshold; it seems designed for use only with dynamic microphones, or low-voltage electret condensers whose sensitivity is no greater than typical dynamic microphones. That all seems rather 1970s-ish, to those of us who were around then.

The point is, though, that the overload occurs at the first active circuit stage which your signals "see," while the level meters are attached only to a much later stage of the recorder's circuitry. Thus those meters can't be relied upon to tell you when (or whether) an input overload problem is occurring.

(In case it's any consolation, plenty of other equipment has similar problems. Many professional microphone preamps have overload indicators which monitor only the final stages of the circuit--while their input circuits may have a low enough overload point that with the gain turned down, the output stage can do just what your recorder was apparently doing: cleanly amplifying a signal that was already "clipped" at the input of the same device. If the input signals are "hot" enough, such preamps can merrily pump out 25% THD, as I have actually measured, without the "clip" light ever coming on.)

The immediate remedies for this situation would probably be either (a) resistive attenuators ("pads") at the mike inputs of the recorder, or (b) connecting the microphones to a mike preamp which would boost their signals to (consumer) line levels, then feeding those signals into the line inputs of the recorder. If you choose the latter approach, be aware that the line inputs have an overload limit of their own (ca. 2 Volts), so any mike preamp used for this purpose shouldn't be driven too hard--professional mike preamps usually can put out 10 Volts or more.

Unfortunately the equipment manufacturers always leave you with some "homework" to be done before an important recording, and it does involve a little arithmetic with decibels and Volts, but it's easy enough to learn and there are always people who will be glad to help you. At a minimum you always need to know the sound levels you expect to encounter, the sensitivity of your microphones, and the input overload limits of your preamps or mike inputs.

And again in case it's any consolation, when I started recording percussion ensembles 25 years ago and again about 10 years ago when I started making relatively close-up recordings of highly trained opera singers, I had to replace a certain amount of equipment and find workarounds for problems that I never suspected I had, as a result of the dynamic range which those recordings demanded. Typical consumer recordings--children's birthday parties, office meetings, etc.--don't demand so much dynamic range especially at the high-intensity end of the scale, and most budget-priced equipment isn't designed to handle it, especially when sensitive microphones are being used.

--best regards

P.S.: I almost hate to say this, but it is true that microphones themselves can overload, as others in this thread have mentioned. With condenser microphones this is particularly a risk if they aren't correctly powered. Overload at the mike input stage of a preamp, mixer or recorder is far more common, especially when high-quality condenser microphones are being used to record loud sounds; still, there's some possibility that clearing up one problem along the "chain" will uncover the existence of another one.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 11:23:04 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Can you clip a microphone?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2007, 11:15:58 AM »
landshark, you ask many good questions. Some of them are technical while others seem more existential, but they're still good questions in my book.

One of your more existential questions was, in essence, "Why do equipment manufacturers sell us things that don't work together as we expect them to?" It's important to realize that just because "they" sell us stuff that looks all proper and well-packaged, we must still maintain some caution and know the limits of the equipment we work with. A microphone's or recorder's level of sonic quality may be one thing; its compatibility with some other given piece of equipment under specific circumstances may be something else again.

To zoom in on one particular situation that may well be affecting you now: Your Korg MR-1 recorder's mike inputs have a specified maximum signal level of -27 dBV. That's only about 44.7 mV, and it means that regardless of gain settings or meter readings, most good microphones not only can, but WILL overload the circuitry at the microphone inputs if you try to record loud sounds. A typical studio condenser microphone puts out 44.7 mV at sound pressure levels somewhere in the 85 - 90 decibel range. But 100 dB sound pressure levels are common in live recording situations, and your equipment must handle them without overloading.

Confirming the fear you expressed, unfortunately: Your recorder's level meters almost certainly read the signals at the unit's internal analog-to-digital converter--after the built-in mike preamp circuitry has already distorted them. It's that mike preamp (input) circuit which has the low overload threshold; it seems designed for use only with dynamic microphones, or low-voltage electret condensers whose sensitivity is no greater than typical dynamic microphones. That all seems rather 1970s-ish, to those of us who were around then.

The point is, though, that the overload occurs at the first active circuit stage which your signals "see," while the level meters are attached only to a much later stage of the recorder's circuitry. Thus those meters can't be relied upon to tell you when (or whether) an input overload problem is occurring.

(In case it's any consolation, plenty of other equipment has similar problems. Many professional microphone preamps have overload indicators which monitor only the final stages of the circuit--while their input circuits may have a low enough overload point that with the gain turned down, the output stage can do just what your recorder was apparently doing: cleanly amplifying a signal that was already "clipped" at the input of the same device. If the input signals are "hot" enough, such preamps can merrily pump out 25% THD, as I have actually measured, without the "clip" light ever coming on.)

The immediate remedies for this situation would probably be either (a) resistive attenuators ("pads") at the mike inputs of the recorder, or (b) connecting the microphones to a mike preamp which would boost their signals to (consumer) line levels, then feeding those signals into the line inputs of the recorder. If you choose the latter approach, be aware that the line inputs have an overload limit of their own (ca. 2 Volts), so any mike preamp used for this purpose shouldn't be driven too hard--professional mike preamps usually can put out 10 Volts or more.

Unfortunately the equipment manufacturers always leave you with some "homework" to be done before an important recording, and it does involves a little arithmetic with decibels and Volts, but it's easy enough to learn and there are always people who will be glad to help you. At a minimum you always need to know the sound levels you expect to encounter, the sensitivity of your microphones, and the input overload limits of your preamps or mike inputs.

And again in case it's any consolation, when I started recording percussion ensembles 25 years ago and again about 10 years ago when I started making relatively close-up recordings of highly trained opera singers, I had to replace a certain amount of equipment and find workarounds for problems that I never suspected I had, as a result of the dynamic range which those recordings demanded. Typical consumer recordings--children's birthday parties, office meetings, etc.--don't demand so much dynamic range especially at the high-intensity end of the scale, and most budget-priced equipment isn't designed to handle it, especially when sensitive microphones are being used.

--best regards

Great post as always.. I think the real problem like you pointed out is design. But another problem is the use of digital attenuation a necessary evil in today's recorders. If there was a proper first gain stage with a potentiometer instead of a digital chip this would not happen. So one of the options is to run a mic preamp on the front end of your recorder.. And not hit the input of your Korg so hard.

Chris
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EMAIL Sales@church-audio.com

Roving Sign

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Re: Can you clip a microphone?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2007, 11:17:50 AM »
Thanks for that one ^

I used to assume that the on-mic (built-in) pads were for the benefit of the downstream mic preamp...and not the mic itself.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Can you clip a microphone?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2007, 11:20:11 AM »
Thanks for that one ^

I used to assume that the on-mic (built-in) pads were for the benefit of the downstream mic preamp...and not the mic itself.

Most mic pads are actually right after the mic capsule it self they protect the second stage of the mic body's preamp.

Chris
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Can you clip a microphone?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2007, 11:45:30 AM »
Roving Sign, the "pad" switch on a condenser microphone can be designed in various ways, so you have to find out on a case-by-case basis what the switch for a given type of microphone is actually doing. The great majority of such pad switches reduce the voltage at the input of the microphone's own electronics, i.e. the signal delivered by the capsule itself. This is done either by reducing the capsule's polarization voltage, or more commonly by placing an additional, constant capacitance across that of the capsule.

Either way, such pads reduce the microphone's overall output level while allowing the microphone to handle higher sound pressure levels. That in turn helps to prevent overload at the input of the mixing board or recorder, so why not leave them on all the time? The answer is that the noise level of the microphone's own amplifier circuitry stays roughly constant regardless of the pad switch setting. If you reduce the output signal levels by 10 - 12 - 14 dB while the noise floor stays constant, you're basically adding 10 - 12 - 14 dB of noise to that microphone's signal by the time you bring that channel's gain back up the level you wish to record at.

Thus any built-in pads of that type (which, as I said, are the most common type) should never be used unless they are needed to prevent the microphone itself from overloading. Unfortunately a lot of engineers don't seem to get that. There are studios I've been in where the KM 84s and U 87s all had their pads switched on all the time--because years ago, some input on some board may have been driven too hard, so the engineers simply left all the pads switched on all the time since then, to prevent possible future problems.

If the input gain trims on the board can't be set to where they are overload-proof for a given microphone, then the best remedy is a resistive pad (attenuator) at the board's mike input. Such pads reduce the noise from the microphone's circuitry to the same degree that they reduce the wanted signal levels, so they prevent overload distortion without making the recording that much noisier. Resistive pads are inexpensive and reliable, they don't color the sound, and they don't interfere with phantom powering. Every engineer who does live recording should have some on hand, both as trouble-shooting devices and as real-world problem solvers. And then they can leave the microphones' pads switched off when their use isn't strictly necessary.

As a final note, sometimes what's overloading a microphone is air currents or breath noise, so a simple wind or pop screen should always be tried before deciding to turn on the pad switch. Similarly, solid-borne sound (physical vibration) can occur at such low frequencies that you don't hear it over your monitors, but it can overload the microphone's circuitry especially if the microphone has an output transformer. So a good shock mount is another thing to try rather than habitually reaching for the pad switch. (Unfortunately I have to add that good shock mounts aren't generally cheap, and cheap ones aren't generally good. The ones which I've seen offered as accessories for many recent Chinese microphones seem almost completely ineffective at preventing vibration from reaching the microphones.)

--best regards
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 12:12:37 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline taper420

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Re: Can you clip a microphone?
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2007, 12:17:11 PM »
I've had similar issues when using the preamp in my HiMD recorder.... I just use an external preamp now and go line in and I've even gotten decent levels going line-in with no preamp (my mics run hot). One other possibility is power issues. Did you use a new battery? The bass is the first thing to distort when the power starts dipping (in my experience).


Offline landshark

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Re: Can you clip a microphone?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2007, 12:50:19 PM »
"Confirming the fear you expressed, unfortunately: Your recorder's level meters almost certainly read the signals at the unit's internal analog-to-digital converter--after the built-in mike preamp circuitry has already distorted them. "

Dang.

Dsatz, awesome write-up!  You really answered my question and then some - if I could figure out to +T, I would!!!  The only thing better would have been if I was wrong about the levels...<grin>

Mike
AKG 461's / 463's OR Senn MKH 8040's > MR1000 (Busman mod) or Shure FP24 (aka MixPre) > MR1 (open)
Coresounds Binaurals > CChurch 9100 > MR1 OR AKG CK1x/2x/3x > Deneke P20 > MR1 (low profile)

 

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