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Offline atxwolfattack

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first setup question
« on: January 05, 2007, 07:53:08 PM »
hey, i posted a few days ago asking some questions about a semi stealth setup. So this is kind of what i have come down to...

CHURCH AUDIO STC-9000 CARDIOD MICROPHONES and PREAMP

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=ADME%3AL%3ARTQ%3AUS%3A1&viewitem=&item=260072905972&rd=1

and then a Edirol R-09.

With this setup, I am looking at somewhere around 600 dollars, and i don't think i can really afford that right now. If i did just go all in and buy this setup, it seems like it would be pretty good and last me a while, correct?


My other idea would be to get those mics and preamp, but get like a HI-MD recorder instead, probably used on ebay, and if i can get one for about 200 bucks, i would end up saving about 200 bucks. Do you think i should just save up a little bit more and get the edirol, or just save my money and get like a Hi-MD, or some other less expensive device? I don't go to a ton of shows, but if this is something that is going to last me many years, then it seems like it could be worth it to go all in and spend like 600 bucks.

thanks a bunch,

Josh

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2007, 08:17:14 PM »
what about a used iriver with rockbox firmware installed

its only 16-bit but has NO compression and can be found for around 150 US
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Offline Chanher

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2007, 08:22:52 PM »
what about a used iriver with rockbox firmware installed

its only 16-bit but has NO compression and can be found for around 150 US

the iriver would work better than minidisc because there is no disc flip to contend with. With 20 gigs (or more if you want) you can record for hours upon hours without having to touch the recorder. plus the internal batt and harddrive can eventually be swapped if needed.

If you are dead set on 24-bit than the R-9 is your recorder, otherwise the iriver will work out quite well.
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Offline atxwolfattack

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2007, 09:02:01 PM »
so that Iriver with rockbox firmware actually works pretty good? Besides 24 bit, what are the main disadvantages of it compared to the R-09?

edit:
It's the iriver H120/140 correct? one of those?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2007, 09:06:06 PM by atxwolfattack »

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2007, 09:30:46 PM »
so that Iriver with rockbox firmware actually works pretty good? Besides 24 bit, what are the main disadvantages of it compared to the R-09?

edit:
It's the iriver H120/140 correct? one of those?

Don't forget to look at the nomad as well its the cheapest option for recording good audio besides HIMD recorders.
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Offline atxwolfattack

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2007, 10:20:35 PM »
so that Iriver with rockbox firmware actually works pretty good? Besides 24 bit, what are the main disadvantages of it compared to the R-09?

edit:
It's the iriver H120/140 correct? one of those?

Don't forget to look at the nomad as well its the cheapest option for recording good audio besides HIMD recorders.


are those Nomad Jukebox 3 small enough to fit in a pocket? say that in one pocket, and one of your pre-amps in the other?

Offline atxwolfattack

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2007, 10:52:03 PM »
i am trying to figure out what the difference between the iRiver H-120 and the H320 is?

Oh, the H320 does not have optical in. Wait, i know i am gonna sound totally stupid, but what is the difference between optical and analog? Optical basically means digital right, but would these Church Audio mic's connect to an optical in, or a analog in? I am confusing myself, haha.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2007, 01:29:33 AM »
i am trying to figure out what the difference between the iRiver H-120 and the H320 is?

Oh, the H320 does not have optical in. Wait, i know i am gonna sound totally stupid, but what is the difference between optical and analog? Optical basically means digital right, but would these Church Audio mic's connect to an optical in, or a analog in? I am confusing myself, haha.

My preamp is not an A-D converter so you would go into the line input, the JB3 is big but its cheap and hell it sounds pretty good. I personally think that all this talk about 24 bit is not that important when your starting out. 16 Bit has been the professional standard for years. Hell half of us grew up on it. I am a bit older I remember RECORDS! the "other" round disks :) they were good too. I just think in some cases you have to look at your source if its a shitty bar band chances are the difference between 24 bit and 16 bit will be lost by the no-mind kid mixing the band anyway :) But there are always exceptions to this rule :) I have seen people come in and operate the worst gear in the world and produce would class live sound, I have also been there when the "bands sound guy" needed me to tell him how to operate the console, or better yet if I would not mind getting him his sounds so he can pose behind the sound board when the band goes on :) Sorry I went off on a wee bit of a tangent there  ;D

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Offline Chanher

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2007, 01:52:15 AM »
yeah for your setup no need for digital in like Chris said.

The jb3 and the iriver are pretty identical sounding to my ears. since they're roughly the same price I think the iriver makes more sense. The jb3 is bigger, try to imagine a discman. It will fit in a jean pocket but not comfortably. the iriver is very ipod like in size and shape. Also, the jb3 has been discontinued so who knows how long we have access to new internal batts, and the iriver internal batt is universal (think ipod) and can be found on ebay and replaced.

But, I've had two jb3's over the course of a couple years and I don't think I can remember one non-user error ever. very solid for me.
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Re: first setup question
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2007, 02:10:46 AM »

CHURCH AUDIO STC-9000 CARDIOD MICROPHONES and PREAMP
and then a Edirol R-09.

Josh

That's what I'm running, and I like it a lot.

Offline atxwolfattack

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2007, 12:09:04 PM »
thanks a bunch, everyone, i really appreciate it. Looks like i am gonna go with the iRiver, purely because of size issues. If it was not 100 degrees all year in austin, then i could just put the JB3 in my hoodie or sweatshirt or something, but yeah, it just don't know if i will be able to comfortably jam one of those things into my pocket. So it looks like i am gonna go with...

CHURCH AUDIO STC-9000 CARDIOD MICROPHONES and PREAMP
iRiver iHP-120

seem like a pretty good starter setup?


If anyone has any links to good tips for beginner tapers, i would really appreciate it.
Like for example, where would be the best place to put these little mics when i am taping? attach them to a hat or something?
Also, when do you know to use the gain on the preamp, i am guessing the quieter the show, the more gain you use? And on like the iRiver, when i turn the gain on from the preamp, will it actually show the levels bars go up on the iRiver?

thanks!



oh yeah, also, i know that the Church-Audio preamp is not an A/D converter, what will the quality loss between just analog and digital in? Are there cheap external A/D converter, or are they all big and expensive? Should i just not even worry about it?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2007, 12:30:08 PM by atxwolfattack »

Offline Chanher

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2007, 02:34:14 PM »
So it looks like i am gonna go with...

CHURCH AUDIO STC-9000 CARDIOD MICROPHONES and PREAMP
iRiver iHP-120

seem like a pretty good starter setup?

I have that very same preamp and have used it with the iriver, it is MUCH better than using the gain on the recorder. I have not used the mics but I am very curious to see how they sound. I've been thinking, with all these mini-condensors (AT mics, Core Sound, Squid, Church Audio etc.) how much of a difference can there really be? Honestly, if you put them all head-to-head, I bet they'd sound quite similar.

If anyone has any links to good tips for beginner tapers, i would really appreciate it.
Like for example, where would be the best place to put these little mics when i am taping? attach them to a hat or something?

Try searching "stealth techniques" etc. and check the archives. Tons of good info and pics if you search right. IMO in-hat is the best way, you want to get the mics as high as possible.

Also, when do you know to use the gain on the preamp, i am guessing the quieter the show, the more gain you use? And on like the iRiver, when i turn the gain on from the preamp, will it actually show the levels bars go up on the iRiver?

precisely. When you get your gear, practice setting levels to your stereo being loud. or better yet, go to some local band and mess around with it. you will need to set the levels so that they are close to 0dB but not going over.  Basically, you want the PEAKS of the meters right below the threshold. try slowly cranking the gain, and watch for the point when it starts hitting 0dB. listen at home and you will hear the distortion.

oh yeah, also, i know that the Church-Audio preamp is not an A/D converter, what will the quality loss between just analog and digital in? Are there cheap external A/D converter, or are they all big and expensive? Should i just not even worry about it?

don't even worry about it.
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Offline atxwolfattack

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2007, 02:41:39 PM »
Thanks a bunch Chanher, I have one more quick question. On the ebay auction for the preamp and mic, it says...

"THREE LEVELS OF GAIN SETTINGS +30 +10,  0db"

So basically, say that my levels are looking too low, i would move the gain up to the +10 notch, if that shoots the levels too much so it peaks over the threshold, then i just turn the levels down on the iRiver?

I guess i will be able to mess around with it, hopefully i don't get a dud on ebay.....

Offline Chanher

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2007, 02:56:41 PM »
did you already buy the preamp? My preamp has a gain dial, not settings.

send a PM to Church Audio here at TS, he posted in this thread. he'll make sure you have the right setup.
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Re: first setup question
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2007, 04:03:30 PM »
I guess i will be able to mess around with it, hopefully i don't get a dud on ebay.....

Chris builds them himself - you won't get a dud. :)

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2007, 04:08:03 PM »
dorrcoq, i ment the iRiver, i know that i wont get bad stuff from Chris, but hard drive mp3 players have a tendency to die.

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2007, 04:51:39 PM »
i actually just found a Nomad Jukebox 3 on craigslist in town for 50 bucks, seems like i should just get this even know its kind of big. What do you think the best way to stealth with this thing would be? shuv it down my pants? haha.

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2007, 04:58:25 PM »
if you can, i would probably wear a fanny pack or so and stick it in there, but if thats not stealth enough, then shoving it down your pants is an option.


i actually just found a Nomad Jukebox 3 on craigslist in town for 50 bucks, seems like i should just get this even know its kind of big. What do you think the best way to stealth with this thing would be? shuv it down my pants? haha.
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Re: first setup question
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2007, 05:51:24 PM »
do those JB3 really overheat a bunch and shut down... i am kinda scared, haha.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2007, 06:52:47 PM »
Thanks a bunch Chanher, I have one more quick question. On the ebay auction for the preamp and mic, it says...

"THREE LEVELS OF GAIN SETTINGS +30 +10,  0db"

So basically, say that my levels are looking too low, i would move the gain up to the +10 notch, if that shoots the levels too much so it peaks over the threshold, then i just turn the levels down on the iRiver?

I guess i will be able to mess around with it, hopefully i don't get a dud on ebay.....

Hi the st-9000 has three gain settings +30 +10 and 0 db + it has an output level control my st-9100 has a true gain control but less overall gain of 20db max it really depends on what your trying to do. If your name is Christopher I have not sent your preamp yet and you can upgrade to the 9100 if you wish.
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Offline atxwolfattack

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2007, 07:20:31 PM »
Chris, this is josh, i emailed you a few times yesterday and am about to get the st-9000 setup.

so basically, with the st-9000, you select one of the 3 gain settings, and then compensate with the output level control? I am kind of confused how this really is different then the 9100 with true gain control.

so what would you do if +10 was too little gain, and +30 was too much gain? Would you select +30 and then turn the output level control down until it is not peaking over the threshold?

thanks!

Josh

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2007, 07:29:15 PM »
i was just at "guitar center" tonight, they have the Sony mz-m100 hi-md combo packs on sale for 199.99.that is a very good deal.the pack includes the illuminated diplay md deck(aluminum casing), a case,sony t-mic ( i would not use this to record shows) the good battery,dry-battery dock,(1) 1 gb blank hi-md disc,charger and the sonicstage software,plus usb cable.
 for the money,if you're not going to get the r-09, this is the way to go.a decent set of mics and you will easily be getting some great recordings.
you should check it out

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2007, 07:46:18 PM »
Chris, this is josh, i emailed you a few times yesterday and am about to get the st-9000 setup.

so basically, with the st-9000, you select one of the 3 gain settings, and then compensate with the output level control? I am kind of confused how this really is different then the 9100 with true gain control.

so what would you do if +10 was too little gain, and +30 was too much gain? Would you select +30 and then turn the output level control down until it is not peaking over the threshold?

thanks!

Josh

Hey Josh the st-9000 is a good preamp for most things but your stuck with my gain settings they will work for most things +30 is for quiet acoustic stuff +10 is for rock 0 db if for really loud shows. The st-9100 is a completely different preamp design it uses a true gain control at the input stage. So you have from 00- db or all the way off to +20 db this is a huge gain range. And its handy to have a preamp with a good range but for most people the 9000 is a good preamp for stealth recording. The 9100 has more bottom end.
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Offline atxwolfattack

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2007, 07:55:41 PM »
Chris, this is josh, i emailed you a few times yesterday and am about to get the st-9000 setup.

so basically, with the st-9000, you select one of the 3 gain settings, and then compensate with the output level control? I am kind of confused how this really is different then the 9100 with true gain control.

so what would you do if +10 was too little gain, and +30 was too much gain? Would you select +30 and then turn the output level control down until it is not peaking over the threshold?

thanks!

Josh

Hey Josh the st-9000 is a good preamp for most things but your stuck with my gain settings they will work for most things +30 is for quiet acoustic stuff +10 is for rock 0 db if for really loud shows. The st-9100 is a completely different preamp design it uses a true gain control at the input stage. So you have from 00- db or all the way off to +20 db this is a huge gain range. And its handy to have a preamp with a good range but for most people the 9000 is a good preamp for stealth recording. The 9100 has more bottom end.


But Chris, was i correct about how the "output level control"? How does that work. Does this sentence describe what you would do correctly?

"so what would you do if +10 was too little gain, and +30 was too much gain? Would you select +30 and then turn the output level control down until it is not peaking over the threshold?"

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2007, 10:11:39 PM »
Or you can use +10 and boost further in post with software if necessary

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2007, 11:17:52 PM »
Chris, this is josh, i emailed you a few times yesterday and am about to get the st-9000 setup.

so basically, with the st-9000, you select one of the 3 gain settings, and then compensate with the output level control? I am kind of confused how this really is different then the 9100 with true gain control.

so what would you do if +10 was too little gain, and +30 was too much gain? Would you select +30 and then turn the output level control down until it is not peaking over the threshold?

thanks!

Josh

Hey Josh the st-9000 is a good preamp for most things but your stuck with my gain settings they will work for most things +30 is for quiet acoustic stuff +10 is for rock 0 db if for really loud shows. The st-9100 is a completely different preamp design it uses a true gain control at the input stage. So you have from 00- db or all the way off to +20 db this is a huge gain range. And its handy to have a preamp with a good range but for most people the 9000 is a good preamp for stealth recording. The 9100 has more bottom end.


But Chris, was i correct about how the "output level control"? How does that work. Does this sentence describe what you would do correctly?

"so what would you do if +10 was too little gain, and +30 was too much gain? Would you select +30 and then turn the output level control down until it is not peaking over the threshold?"

The level knob is output level not input gain. thats the difference between the st-9000 and the st-9100.
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Offline atxwolfattack

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2007, 11:43:25 PM »
i guess i am just stupid or something, haha. So what exactly is the funtion of the output level nob on the 9100? i am just trying to figure out it's relation to gain on the preamp.

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2007, 11:04:56 AM »
i guess i am just stupid or something, haha. So what exactly is the funtion of the output level nob on the 9100? i am just trying to figure out it's relation to gain on the preamp.

Your not stupid! the knob on the st-9100 is a gain knob it does not have switches like the st-9000. It has a gain control that is continuously variable between 00-db or all the way off to +20 db of gain. You Can boost or attenuate depending on your situation, in a very loud concert you might need to attenuate. In a more quiet show you might need to boost. My preamp allows you to do that. It also allows for connection to a video camera as a interface between a mic and a video camera the 9100 can act as a attenuator and cut the signal to avoid AGC (automatic gain control) from kicking in. My 9100 also has a clip light indicator so you can see if your getting close to distortion.
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Re: first setup question
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2007, 12:18:30 PM »
opps i ment the output level nob on the 9000, sorry. What is the relation between the output level nob on the 9000 to gain.

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2007, 01:10:22 PM »
opps i ment the output level nob on the 9000, sorry. What is the relation between the output level nob on the 9000 to gain.

The output knob on the 9000 works like this say you have set your three level gain switch on the +10 db setting on the 9000 preamp. But at that setting your still a little hot for your recorders input or you need to quickly turn down because the next band in the show you have been taping is a lot louder you can reach for this output level control instead of having to find the level control on your recorder in the dark. So its just a attenuation for the Output of the preamp. It does not effect the input gain what so ever.
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Offline atxwolfattack

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2007, 01:27:42 PM »
opps i ment the output level nob on the 9000, sorry. What is the relation between the output level nob on the 9000 to gain.

The output knob on the 9000 works like this say you have set your three level gain switch on the +10 db setting on the 9000 preamp. But at that setting your still a little hot for your recorders input or you need to quickly turn down because the next band in the show you have been taping is a lot louder you can reach for this output level control instead of having to find the level control on your recorder in the dark. So its just a attenuation for the Output of the preamp. It does not effect the input gain what so ever.

okay, thats what i though, so on the 9000, you basically can select one of the 3 gain switches, and they tweek the output to compensate for where your levels are peaking on your device.

sorry for all these questions, when you turn down the output knob on the 9000, it is only reducing the amount of gain OUT of the preamp and INTO the recording device. Maybe i am overthinking this.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 01:31:05 PM by atxwolfattack »

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2007, 01:31:58 PM »
opps i ment the output level nob on the 9000, sorry. What is the relation between the output level nob on the 9000 to gain.

The output knob on the 9000 works like this say you have set your three level gain switch on the +10 db setting on the 9000 preamp. But at that setting your still a little hot for your recorders input or you need to quickly turn down because the next band in the show you have been taping is a lot louder you can reach for this output level control instead of having to find the level control on your recorder in the dark. So its just a attenuation for the Output of the preamp. It does not effect the input gain what so ever.

okay, thats what i though, so on the 9000, you basically can select one of the 3 gain switches, and they tweek the output to compensate for where your levels are peaking on your device.

Dam why didn't I say it that way in the first place. Yes your correct. Its a simple way to quickly get your levels up or down in an emergency situation where you have a show level change.
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Re: first setup question
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2007, 07:50:11 PM »
okay, well once i get a hold of a recording device in the next few days, i am gonna order the church audio preamp and mics, then i will have my first setup. I have recently found out that most of the venues in austin are pretty cool with tapers, but it just seems easier to get a stealth rig and then not have to worry about always being extra strealthy when i dont need to, or be stealthy when i do need.

The only thing i am bummed about is, having to stand so still, and not even being able to quetly sing along with the music. I am not one of the people that screams out loud, but i know if i do any singing what so ever, the mics will pick it up. Is it a bad idea to even tap your foot when you are recording, like do you have to be pretty freaking still when you have the mics on your hat?

Well, i will never know if i dont try, and i am guessing that if i dont end up liking taping shows, i will be able to find people to buy my equipment, and hopefully i dont lose more than 50-100 bucks.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2007, 09:09:51 PM »
okay, well once i get a hold of a recording device in the next few days, i am gonna order the church audio preamp and mics, then i will have my first setup. I have recently found out that most of the venues in austin are pretty cool with tapers, but it just seems easier to get a stealth rig and then not have to worry about always being extra strealthy when i dont need to, or be stealthy when i do need.

The only thing i am bummed about is, having to stand so still, and not even being able to quetly sing along with the music. I am not one of the people that screams out loud, but i know if i do any singing what so ever, the mics will pick it up. Is it a bad idea to even tap your foot when you are recording, like do you have to be pretty freaking still when you have the mics on your hat?

Well, i will never know if i dont try, and i am guessing that if i dont end up liking taping shows, i will be able to find people to buy my equipment, and hopefully i dont lose more than 50-100 bucks.


You should try to be still but if your mics are in a good position it should be ok if you move abit. Remember your not there to have fun your there to get good audio sing along to the music after its recorded. :)
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Re: first setup question
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2007, 09:58:49 PM »
i guess i will just have to duck tape my mouth so i can sing, but no noise comes out, haha.

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2007, 01:30:54 PM »
Lip sync.  I do it even when open taping, plus it helps you look more normal if you're doing the renegade bit.
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Re: first setup question
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2007, 05:37:23 AM »
I've gotten pretty good at mouthing/"singing" along without any sound coming out of my mouth - mostly (I recorded Clapton in Bangkok the other night and you can hear my "holy shit" after a particularly tasty solo in "Little Wing" ::) ).

Offline gratefulphish

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2007, 09:56:13 AM »
I refer to it as "air-singing", like "air-guitar"
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Re: first setup question
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2007, 10:40:12 PM »
i guess this will sound like a dumb question, but is it a bad idea if i clap after songs? I would feel kind of like an idiot if i didnt clap after hearing bands that i really like alot. Since everyone around me will be clapping, does it matter, or will it really pick mine up much more, if say, my mics are clipped to my hat or collar?

thank!

josh

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2007, 11:09:16 PM »
Think about your mics as your ears.
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: first setup question
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2007, 10:43:46 AM »
i guess this will sound like a dumb question, but is it a bad idea if i clap after songs? I would feel kind of like an idiot if i didnt clap after hearing bands that i really like alot. Since everyone around me will be clapping, does it matter, or will it really pick mine up much more, if say, my mics are clipped to my hat or collar?

thank!

josh

YES IT'S A BAD IDEA  ::)  :)
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Re: first setup question
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2007, 10:32:22 PM »
i guess this will sound like a dumb question, but is it a bad idea if i clap after songs? I would feel kind of like an idiot if i didnt clap after hearing bands that i really like alot. Since everyone around me will be clapping, does it matter, or will it really pick mine up much more, if say, my mics are clipped to my hat or collar?

thank!

josh


You don't have to make noise to look like your clapping. :)
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