Topic: Delay in Matrix Recording?

[Gr8ful98]

Hey y'all,
   If I want to do a matrix...mics>UA5/SBD>UA5, but the soundboard is about 50 feet from the stage, what do I do?  I'm reading that there will be a delay between the sbd recording & the mics. Is there a special device or cable I need to run in order to even this out? If there is a special device or cable, where can I get it?  How bad will the delay be?  Will is seriously affect the recording?  Should I just stick with a straight sbd recording or mic recording?
I'm really excited about doing a matrix for the first time...but I don't wanna screw up the recording. 

I'm a newbie...so please speak to me like I'm in kindergarden.  I've done a few sbd recordings, only one mic recording...this is my first attempt at a matrix & the sbd is going to be at least 30-40 feet from the stage.

Any suggestions on how to get a good matrix in this enviornment would be appreciated!

[nic]

if your mics are at the sbd, in general, the delay will be equal to 1ms per foot distance between the stacks and sbd (other factors usch as humidity come into play, but 1ms/foot is the most common).

you can usually get away with a 20ms delay without it being too noticeable...anything more and it starts to sound like crap.

there are some units you can place between the sbd feed and your ua5 to add a delay, but I honestly dont know the prices offhand. these units will generally require AC power as well...check your local sam ash/guitar world, etc...

[hexyjones]

Is there an extra monitor feed coming from the stage snake...?

Depending on the scale of operations and your access...you might be able to get a suitable feed for a matrix from the monitor mix...and then use your mics close or on-stage...

[NJFunk]

Is there an extra monitor feed coming from the stage snake...?

Depending on the scale of operations and your access...you might be able to get a suitable feed for a matrix from the monitor mix...and then use your mics close or on-stage...

This is the best answer.  Ideally, you want to run mics within 10ft of the stage if you don't have a delay unit.  If you can't get the mics that close to the stage, I've tried 3 alternatives:

1) Mix mics low.  If you mix the mics low enough, the delay sounds like natural reverb, not screwy echo.  This requires a mix of at least 85%/15% for the board mix, so if the reason that you want the matrix in the first place is that the PA mix sucks (like it's vocal heavy with little or no bass), then this is not a solution because what you'll get is the board feed with a little added warmth.  If the board feed is reasonably balanced (in the sense of all the instruments and vocals at reasonable levels, not balanced like XLR outs...), you can get a damn fine recording this way, but this ONLY works to make a good board feed sound great, not to make a shitty board feed sound good.

2) Separate tracks.  I have dealt with delay in the past by panning the board feed to one track and the mic feed to another (like board R and mic L), and then I removed the delay from the mic feed in Soundforge after I loaded the DAT onto my HD.  You can get a good recording doing this as well, but the main drawback is that the final mix will be mono, not stereo.

3) Try to separate ranges.  This is the toughest to do, and I'm not even sure you can do it with a UA-5.  What I've done in places where the PA feed is OK except that the bass isn't mic'd is to crank the bass and cut the treble on the mic feed and vice versa on the PA feed.  The idea being that if the bass is strictly from the mics and the higher ranges are strictly from the board, then there aren't any overlapping ranges where the delay is noticeable.  Of course, this requires that you have a mixer that allows you to do this.  I'm not sure if the UA-5 does that.  I've only gotten mixed results from this method of matrixing, mostly because the mix in the board feed wasn't very good to start with in the places I've tried it.


If you want to get a delay unit, the one I've seen used in the field is the TC Electronics D-2, but I'm not sure what is the ability to use this without A/C available.  They run about $500.  Good luck.

[wbrisette]

2) Separate tracks. 

Is the R4 out yet?, If so. This is your best option. Get a multi-track and don't worry as much about it in the field, fix it in post. While there are a lot of things you can't fix in post, as long as you keep everything on separate tracks, you can fix timing issues in post.

Some of the more expensive multi-track units also provide delay built-in, although those units are very pricey.

Wayne

[mmmatt]

Is there an extra monitor feed coming from the stage snake...?

Depending on the scale of operations and your access...you might be able to get a suitable feed for a matrix from the monitor mix...and then use your mics close or on-stage...

This is the best answer.  Ideally, you want to run mics within 10ft of the stage if you don't have a delay unit.  If you can't get the mics that close to the stage, I've tried 3 alternatives:

1) Mix mics low.  If you mix the mics low enough, the delay sounds like natural reverb, not screwy echo.  This requires a mix of at least 85%/15% for the board mix, so if the reason that you want the matrix in the first place is that the PA mix sucks (like it's vocal heavy with little or no bass), then this is not a solution because what you'll get is the board feed with a little added warmth.  If the board feed is reasonably balanced (in the sense of all the instruments and vocals at reasonable levels, not balanced like XLR outs...), you can get a damn fine recording this way, but this ONLY works to make a good board feed sound great, not to make a shitty board feed sound good.

2) Separate tracks.  I have dealt with delay in the past by panning the board feed to one track and the mic feed to another (like board R and mic L), and then I removed the delay from the mic feed in Soundforge after I loaded the DAT onto my HD.  You can get a good recording doing this as well, but the main drawback is that the final mix will be mono, not stereo.

3) Try to separate ranges.  This is the toughest to do, and I'm not even sure you can do it with a UA-5.  What I've done in places where the PA feed is OK except that the bass isn't mic'd is to crank the bass and cut the treble on the mic feed and vice versa on the PA feed.  The idea being that if the bass is strictly from the mics and the higher ranges are strictly from the board, then there aren't any overlapping ranges where the delay is noticeable.  Of course, this requires that you have a mixer that allows you to do this.  I'm not sure if the UA-5 does that.  I've only gotten mixed results from this method of matrixing, mostly because the mix in the board feed wasn't very good to start with in the places I've tried it.


If you want to get a delay unit, the one I've seen used in the field is the TC Electronics D-2, but I'm not sure what is the ability to use this without A/C available.  They run about $500.  Good luck.

This is solid advice.  If you want to hear what a 45' differance can sound like listen to the last song of the first set on this recording. http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=21744   Also read my technical notes in the txt file.  As our funky friend stated, too much sucks, and it wount help a shitty board feed, but just a little on a decent board feed sounds great.  I say listen to the last track because I actually played with the level during the house music after the last song and, you can hear how a lot vs a little sounds.  Make sure you run the bass rolloff on your mics if you have it.  Even a little bit of reverb makes bass lines mush.  You can always bring the bass up in post, and then you are boosting only the sbd feed bass which is what you want.
     your best bet is to get permission from the sound engineer to allow you to use his snakes to get on the stage.  I usually run stage corners facing the audience and that should be pretty easy to mix with a ua5.  Alternately you can do a config center stage but that takes a little bit more monitoring and with the headphone outs on the ua-5 you would be lucky to get it right.  If it is a small room, and it sounds like a pretty big venue, your best bet is the sweet spot, but a larger room you should be fine on stage. 

Matt

[NJFunk]

I found a delay unit called the Nanoverb by Alesis on sale at Guitar Center for $100. 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=41/g=live/s=signalproc/search/detail/base_pid/182508/

Big plus is price (other delay units are $500 +).  Main drawbacks is that it runs on AC, so I'll need to either have access to a plug or get a DC > AC converter to use it with an external battery (or get it modded for DC, but I'm not an electirician myself - anyone willing?).  Another minor drawback is that the delay effect only gives you 10ms precision, but if you can get the feeds within 10ms, that should be completely inaudible.  I'll post a report after I have a chance to use it.

[mmmatt]

that looks like a mono unit

[hexyjones]

I found a delay unit called the Nanoverb by Alesis on sale at Guitar Center for $100. 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=41/g=live/s=signalproc/search/detail/base_pid/182508/

Big plus is price (other delay units are $500 +).  Main drawbacks is that it runs on AC, so I'll need to either have access to a plug or get a DC > AC converter to use it with an external battery (or get it modded for DC, but I'm not an electirician myself - anyone willing?).  Another minor drawback is that the delay effect only gives you 10ms precision, but if you can get the feeds within 10ms, that should be completely inaudible.  I'll post a report after I have a chance to use it.

Dude - you're fighting an uphill battle here  - what your attempting is highly ill advised...

Face it - you just cant matix in certain situations...forcing it will only screw things up further...

Consider buying yourself a 100 ft 4 channel snake...a lot less hassle - and you would be closer to doing it right...

[NJFunk]

that looks like a mono unit

No, it's stereo.  It's got 1/4" L & R ins and outs.

[NJFunk]

Dude - you're fighting an uphill battle here  - what your attempting is highly ill advised...

Ill advised?  Why?  The only major hurdle is the AC, but anywhere where I can find power, I don't see a problem.

[hexyjones]

How are you planning on setting the delay time...?

Also - how does the delay work...electronically...?

Is the singal subjected to A/D conversion within the device...?

Is the delayed signal as high a quality as the original...?

Seems like most delay units are made to be used as effects and not time alingment devices...

[hexyjones]

Way more than you need - a smaller snake will be cheaper...

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=3486&Category=Snakes

[Tim]

isn't a snake awfully invasive?

I know when I was running FOH if some taper showed up when the doors opened with a 100foot snake to run a matrix I would have laughed him out of the building.

the snake might work if you are allowed in for soundcheck and are on good terms with the band, crew, and club but otherwise I would just get a delay unit (I've used those Alesis and they sound fine) and ask for AC power.

also, a snake is a lot heavier and bulkier to deal with than a delay unit and an AC pwoer cord

[hexyjones]

well sure - it depends on the situation...sure Im not going to show up at a big venue/show hoping I can set this thing up...

But for some of the college scene bands I tape - no problem...

Ideally -  you would just use the band/clubs stage snake...there are likely some extra channels...set your stuff up back at the board...get the two channels from the snake - and go! That's where I would start - before I start using a delay unit...

And a smaller 4 channel snake wouldn't be THAT big or heavy...

[NJFunk]

How are you planning on setting the delay time...?

Also - how does the delay work...electronically...?

Is the singal subjected to A/D conversion within the device...?

Is the delayed signal as high a quality as the original...?

Seems like most delay units are made to be used as effects and not time alingment devices...

OK, I just got back from Guitar Center.  Based on your concerns, I went and asked the guy there about these questions and what I wanted to use the unit for.  To answer some of your questions, it does do Analog In > A/D > Effect > D/A > Analog Out.  He didn't think there should be any discernable degradation of the effect signal.  We didn't get into the specifics of how the effect works electronically because there is a more fundamental reason that this WON'T work that I didn't get from reading the specs on line.  The delay effect is NOT a single-tap type delay, but rather an echo/repeat type delay (in other words, the effect not only delays the signal, it then repeats it a couple times).  Needless to say, I didn't get it.

[nic]

Ideally -  you would just use the band/clubs stage snake...there are likely some extra channels...set your stuff up back at the board...get the two channels from the snake - and go!

in that scenario, unless you put mics onstage, you will STILL need a delay unit

[hexyjones]

Ideally -  you would just use the band/clubs stage snake...there are likely some extra channels...set your stuff up back at the board...get the two channels from the snake - and go!

in that scenario, unless you put mics onstage, you will STILL need a delay unit

I thought that the onstage setup was implied. Maybe some dont know what a "snake" is...

The Snake is large box with XLR inputs that is located on the stage...all the mics used to mic the band are plugged into the snake...

The cable from the snake is very long...and goes back to wherever the soundboard is. Set your recorder up at the board.

At the end of the snake are any number of XLR males...(depending on how many channels the board has)

In most cases - there are say 24 channels - plenty for most acts. So a few channels will be free.

You set your mics up onstage...plug them into the snake...

Now - back at the soundboard(at the other end of the snake) - figure out which two channels you are using, and plug them into your preamp.

Now get the board feed and add that using whatever mixer/pre you happen to use...

ANOTHER APPROACH:

Say you cant really set up near the board -

Well - use the snake in reverse - send the board singal back through snake to the stage (ask the mix person if the have an extra monitor send)

Set up mics onstage - but under this scenario they go right into your preamp - then get the board mix from the snake and matrix away...

Variations on above -

1. -  send whole board mix back through snake...you get the house mix

2. - ask about the extra monitor send - then have the soundguy add only the stuff you want in that send(instead of the whole mix) - for instance - most onstage recordings just need a little clarity added to vocals - so just have soundman add the vocals in your send...

[nic]

ANOTHER APPROACH:

Say you cant really set up near the board -

Well - use the snake in reverse - send the board singal back through snake to the stage (ask the mix person if the have an extra monitor send)

Set up mics onstage - but under this scenario they go right into your preamp - then get the board mix from the snake and matrix away...

Variations on above -

1. -  send whole board mix back through snake...you get the house mix

2. - ask about the extra monitor send - then have the soundguy add only the stuff you want in that send(instead of the whole mix) - for instance - most onstage recordings just need a little clarity added to vocals - so just have soundman add the vocals in your send...

this scenario STILL requires delay

[mmmatt]

ANOTHER APPROACH:

Say you cant really set up near the board -

Well - use the snake in reverse - send the board singal back through snake to the stage (ask the mix person if the have an extra monitor send)

Set up mics onstage - but under this scenario they go right into your preamp - then get the board mix from the snake and matrix away...

Variations on above -

1. -  send whole board mix back through snake...you get the house mix

2. - ask about the extra monitor send - then have the soundguy add only the stuff you want in that send(instead of the whole mix) - for instance - most onstage recordings just need a little clarity added to vocals - so just have soundman add the vocals in your send...

this scenario STILL requires delay

Define need luvean...   You do not NEED a delay if you are close enough.  NOBODY will hear a 10ms delay in a live recording (~10' from the PA) and most wouldn't hear 25ms.  The sound of the room itself will mask a modest delay completely.  If you favor one source or the other you can easily stretch this out to 30' (~30ms delay) with no problems.  I've done this myself without any abnormalities.  My example I posted above was 45', and I was able to overcome the need for delay.  What do you mean by NEED delay?

Matt

[hexyjones]

ANOTHER APPROACH:

Say you cant really set up near the board -

Well - use the snake in reverse - send the board singal back through snake to the stage (ask the mix person if the have an extra monitor send)

Set up mics onstage - but under this scenario they go right into your preamp - then get the board mix from the snake and matrix away...

Variations on above -

1. -  send whole board mix back through snake...you get the house mix

2. - ask about the extra monitor send - then have the soundguy add only the stuff you want in that send(instead of the whole mix) - for instance - most onstage recordings just need a little clarity added to vocals - so just have soundman add the vocals in your send...

this scenario STILL requires delay

Huh? Why?

[nic]

true, under 20ms is relatively unnoticeable.
over 20ms and I would definitely reccomend a delay.
personally, I like the effect of the signals being about 5-10ms apart...gives it a nice fat/warm punch.
25-30ms+ and you've set yourself for the echo/slapback effect.

why would you need delay when sending the board signal back over the snake to the stage?
think about this for a second. wires/cabling have impedance.
under normal circumstances, the stage equipments signal is being sent via snake to the foh position. the signal is not traveling at speed-of-light due to the impedance of the cabling.
if you're sending the signal back down the snake to the stage, you are increasing the impedance against the original signal. with mics setup onstage, there will be a time difference between the signal coming back down the snake compared to the signal captured by your mics. granted, the impedance of the cabling/snake isnt as large as the perceived time delay of the sound coming from the speaker stacks, but it is there.

if this is for a tiny room where the foh position is @25' from the stage and your onstage mics have +15' of cabling then you probably wont notice any effect. (this assumes the snake doesnt have alot of slack coiled/hidden somewhere). increase the size of the room and the cable impedance/perceived time delay increases.

[hexyjones]

true, under 20ms is relatively unnoticeable.
over 20ms and I would definitely reccomend a delay.
personally, I like the effect of the signals being about 5-10ms apart...gives it a nice fat/warm punch.
25-30ms+ and you've set yourself for the echo/slapback effect.

why would you need delay when sending the board signal back over the snake to the stage?
think about this for a second. wires/cabling have impedance.
under normal circumstances, the stage equipments signal is being sent via snake to the foh position. the signal is not traveling at speed-of-light due to the impedance of the cabling.
if you're sending the signal back down the snake to the stage, you are increasing the impedance against the original signal. with mics setup onstage, there will be a time difference between the signal coming back down the snake compared to the signal captured by your mics. granted, the impedance of the cabling/snake isnt as large as the perceived time delay of the sound coming from the speaker stacks, but it is there.

if this is for a tiny room where the foh position is @25' from the stage and your onstage mics have +15' of cabling then you probably wont notice any effect. (this assumes the snake doesnt have alot of slack coiled/hidden somewhere). increase the size of the room and the cable impedance/perceived time delay increases.

Oh please - It might be there in theory - but you surely dont need a DELAY to compensate...You have heard of monitors right? - The monitor feed is often sent back over the snake as well...seems to work fine for all involved! The musicians are using the monitors as key part the performance! They are listening to the monitors as they perform...right...? Their musicans are onstage, the mics are onstage, the monitors are on stage! So really - this technique might actually decrease the delay!

[nic]

true, under 20ms is relatively unnoticeable.
over 20ms and I would definitely reccomend a delay.
personally, I like the effect of the signals being about 5-10ms apart...gives it a nice fat/warm punch.
25-30ms+ and you've set yourself for the echo/slapback effect.

why would you need delay when sending the board signal back over the snake to the stage?
think about this for a second. wires/cabling have impedance.
under normal circumstances, the stage equipments signal is being sent via snake to the foh position. the signal is not traveling at speed-of-light due to the impedance of the cabling.
if you're sending the signal back down the snake to the stage, you are increasing the impedance against the original signal. with mics setup onstage, there will be a time difference between the signal coming back down the snake compared to the signal captured by your mics. granted, the impedance of the cabling/snake isnt as large as the perceived time delay of the sound coming from the speaker stacks, but it is there.

if this is for a tiny room where the foh position is @25' from the stage and your onstage mics have +15' of cabling then you probably wont notice any effect. (this assumes the snake doesnt have alot of slack coiled/hidden somewhere). increase the size of the room and the cable impedance/perceived time delay increases.

Oh please - It might be there in theory - but you surely dont need a DELAY to compensate...You have heard of monitors right? - The monitor feed is often sent back the snake as well...seems to work fine for all involved! The musicians are using the monitors as key part the performance! They are listening to the monitors as they perform...right...? Their musicans are onstage, the mics are onstage, the monitors are on stage! So really - this technique might actually decrease the delay!

only the tiniest of clubs have the monitor mix at foh.
just going by personal experience. every time we've send a sbd signal back down the snake to the stage we had to add delay in post/mixdown, even in venues where the stage-to-foh distance was only about 40'

[hexyjones]

only the tiniest of clubs have the monitor mix at foh.
just going by personal experience. every time we've send a sbd signal back down the snake to the stage we had to add delay in post/mixdown, even in venues where the stage-to-foh distance was only about 40'

Well - I only tape in the tiny-est of clubs - a lot of bands I record are still toting 2-way systems with very basic mixes...I can only think of one club in my region that mixes monitors from sidestage...(Chameleon)

That's one of the reasons I tape the college bands and local/regional acts...just so I can have the kind of access to set up all this shit - which would be a lot harder at big venues...just trying to have fun...

But yeah - not terribly practical at the Electric Factory...

[mmmatt]

true, under 20ms is relatively unnoticeable.
over 20ms and I would definitely reccomend a delay.
personally, I like the effect of the signals being about 5-10ms apart...gives it a nice fat/warm punch.
25-30ms+ and you've set yourself for the echo/slapback effect.

why would you need delay when sending the board signal back over the snake to the stage?
think about this for a second. wires/cabling have impedance.
under normal circumstances, the stage equipments signal is being sent via snake to the foh position. the signal is not traveling at speed-of-light due to the impedance of the cabling.
if you're sending the signal back down the snake to the stage, you are increasing the impedance against the original signal. with mics setup onstage, there will be a time difference between the signal coming back down the snake compared to the signal captured by your mics. granted, the impedance of the cabling/snake isnt as large as the perceived time delay of the sound coming from the speaker stacks, but it is there.

if this is for a tiny room where the foh position is @25' from the stage and your onstage mics have +15' of cabling then you probably wont notice any effect. (this assumes the snake doesnt have alot of slack coiled/hidden somewhere). increase the size of the room and the cable impedance/perceived time delay increases.

I think esotaria is getting the best of you here!  I don't know the statistics, but wouldn't that only be a fraction of a ms?  Some clubs amplify from the stage you know... large powered monitors are becoming more common, and some just place the amps on stage while running the console from the venue floor.  I'm not doubting your statement about delay through the cords is relative, but making considerations for it, seem to me, as being over the line.  Besides, regardless of where the amps are, doesn't the PA suffer the same delay form the FOH signal?  However the signal is getting to the stacks, it still has to get there from the console.

Matt

[Kwonfidelity]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I've never understood why someone would want to mix on-stage mics with the sbd?

Technically, an onstage mic "is" the soundboard.  Look at the guitar amp, the drums, the bass amp, etc.   Mics!

If you're "in" so well with these small clubs, here's a better approach. 

1. Leave your snake(patchbay) and delay at home!
2. Make friends with the sound engineer, which sounds like you already have.
3. Brag, brag, brag about the killer mics you want to set up on stage.
4. Convince him to use those as overhead inputs from stage and use them for the house mix.
5. If he does or doesn't, just get him to  pick up the inputs into the board and then send you the sbd/your mics mix to a sub/buss directly to you.

"Brilliant!"

[SuperDave]

true, under 20ms is relatively unnoticeable.
over 20ms and I would definitely reccomend a delay.
personally, I like the effect of the signals being about 5-10ms apart...gives it a nice fat/warm punch.
25-30ms+ and you've set yourself for the echo/slapback effect.

why would you need delay when sending the board signal back over the snake to the stage?
think about this for a second. wires/cabling have impedance.
under normal circumstances, the stage equipments signal is being sent via snake to the foh position. the signal is not traveling at speed-of-light due to the impedance of the cabling.
if you're sending the signal back down the snake to the stage, you are increasing the impedance against the original signal. with mics setup onstage, there will be a time difference between the signal coming back down the snake compared to the signal captured by your mics. granted, the impedance of the cabling/snake isnt as large as the perceived time delay of the sound coming from the speaker stacks, but it is there.

if this is for a tiny room where the foh position is @25' from the stage and your onstage mics have +15' of cabling then you probably wont notice any effect. (this assumes the snake doesnt have alot of slack coiled/hidden somewhere). increase the size of the room and the cable impedance/perceived time delay increases.

Oh please - It might be there in theory - but you surely dont need a DELAY to compensate...You have heard of monitors right? - The monitor feed is often sent back the snake as well...seems to work fine for all involved! The musicians are using the monitors as key part the performance! They are listening to the monitors as they perform...right...? Their musicans are onstage, the mics are onstage, the monitors are on stage! So really - this technique might actually decrease the delay!

only the tiniest of clubs have the monitor mix at foh.
just going by personal experience. every time we've send a sbd signal back down the snake to the stage we had to add delay in post/mixdown, even in venues where the stage-to-foh distance was only about 40'

Speaking from my own experience of mixing FOH and Monitors at various venues(this includes some big outdoor festies), the monitor rig is set up on the side stage more for the convenience of communication to the band onstage rather than the delay problem.  While the monitor rig may be only 20 feet from the front of the stage, the signal still has to be split and run through an abnormally long snake that usually has a lot of it(100 feet or so, sometimes more) coiled up by the monitor board.  So it's still running down a long length cable.  I can't say that I've ever noticed the delay that we're refering too.

Just my 2 cents.    

[nic]

true, under 20ms is relatively unnoticeable.
over 20ms and I would definitely reccomend a delay.
personally, I like the effect of the signals being about 5-10ms apart...gives it a nice fat/warm punch.
25-30ms+ and you've set yourself for the echo/slapback effect.

why would you need delay when sending the board signal back over the snake to the stage?
think about this for a second. wires/cabling have impedance.
under normal circumstances, the stage equipments signal is being sent via snake to the foh position. the signal is not traveling at speed-of-light due to the impedance of the cabling.
if you're sending the signal back down the snake to the stage, you are increasing the impedance against the original signal. with mics setup onstage, there will be a time difference between the signal coming back down the snake compared to the signal captured by your mics. granted, the impedance of the cabling/snake isnt as large as the perceived time delay of the sound coming from the speaker stacks, but it is there.

if this is for a tiny room where the foh position is @25' from the stage and your onstage mics have +15' of cabling then you probably wont notice any effect. (this assumes the snake doesnt have alot of slack coiled/hidden somewhere). increase the size of the room and the cable impedance/perceived time delay increases.

Oh please - It might be there in theory - but you surely dont need a DELAY to compensate...You have heard of monitors right? - The monitor feed is often sent back the snake as well...seems to work fine for all involved! The musicians are using the monitors as key part the performance! They are listening to the monitors as they perform...right...? Their musicans are onstage, the mics are onstage, the monitors are on stage! So really - this technique might actually decrease the delay!

only the tiniest of clubs have the monitor mix at foh.
just going by personal experience. every time we've send a sbd signal back down the snake to the stage we had to add delay in post/mixdown, even in venues where the stage-to-foh distance was only about 40'

Speaking from my own experience of mixing FOH and Monitors at various venues(this includes some big outdoor festies), the monitor rig is set up on the side stage more for the convenience of communication to the band onstage rather than the delay problem.  While the monitor rig may be only 20 feet from the front of the stage, the signal still has to be split and run through an abnormally long snake that usually has a lot of it(100 feet or so, sometimes more) coiled up by the monitor board.  So it's still running down a long length cable.  I can't say that I've ever noticed the delay that we're refering too.

Just my 2 cents.   

true, but in that scenario, you aren't comparing 2 different input sources simultaneously.
not trying to be sarcastic, but when soundchecking/performing on stage, do you think you could really notice a 20-30millisecond delay?

we only noticed it when mixing down in post...

[dklein]

only the tiniest of clubs have the monitor mix at foh.
just going by personal experience. every time we've send a sbd signal back down the snake to the stage we had to add delay in post/mixdown, even in venues where the stage-to-foh distance was only about 40'

If I'm reading this right you are suggesting that the onstage mics are receiving the signal earlier than the board>snake?  That would be a real mystery, given that the onstage mics only get sound after it's travelled at least as much cable distance just to come out of the p.a.

If there's some discrepancy, it might be in the other direction - board snake gets there first because some post-board processing equipment is delaying the signal to the p.a.  
e.g. the p.a. speakers sit 6 ft in front of the band.  In order to synch the direct sound with the p.a. sound, the p.a. is delayed by 6 ms so the direct sound can travel (catch up to the p.a.) and hit the listeners ears at the same time.

[SuperDave]

true, under 20ms is relatively unnoticeable.
over 20ms and I would definitely reccomend a delay.
personally, I like the effect of the signals being about 5-10ms apart...gives it a nice fat/warm punch.
25-30ms+ and you've set yourself for the echo/slapback effect.

why would you need delay when sending the board signal back over the snake to the stage?
think about this for a second. wires/cabling have impedance.
under normal circumstances, the stage equipments signal is being sent via snake to the foh position. the signal is not traveling at speed-of-light due to the impedance of the cabling.
if you're sending the signal back down the snake to the stage, you are increasing the impedance against the original signal. with mics setup onstage, there will be a time difference between the signal coming back down the snake compared to the signal captured by your mics. granted, the impedance of the cabling/snake isnt as large as the perceived time delay of the sound coming from the speaker stacks, but it is there.

if this is for a tiny room where the foh position is @25' from the stage and your onstage mics have +15' of cabling then you probably wont notice any effect. (this assumes the snake doesnt have alot of slack coiled/hidden somewhere). increase the size of the room and the cable impedance/perceived time delay increases.

Oh please - It might be there in theory - but you surely dont need a DELAY to compensate...You have heard of monitors right? - The monitor feed is often sent back the snake as well...seems to work fine for all involved! The musicians are using the monitors as key part the performance! They are listening to the monitors as they perform...right...? Their musicans are onstage, the mics are onstage, the monitors are on stage! So really - this technique might actually decrease the delay!

only the tiniest of clubs have the monitor mix at foh.
just going by personal experience. every time we've send a sbd signal back down the snake to the stage we had to add delay in post/mixdown, even in venues where the stage-to-foh distance was only about 40'

Speaking from my own experience of mixing FOH and Monitors at various venues(this includes some big outdoor festies), the monitor rig is set up on the side stage more for the convenience of communication to the band onstage rather than the delay problem.  While the monitor rig may be only 20 feet from the front of the stage, the signal still has to be split and run through an abnormally long snake that usually has a lot of it(100 feet or so, sometimes more) coiled up by the monitor board.  So it's still running down a long length cable.  I can't say that I've ever noticed the delay that we're refering too.

Just my 2 cents.   

true, but in that scenario, you aren't comparing 2 different input sources simultaneously.
not trying to be sarcastic, but when soundchecking/performing on stage, do you think you could really notice a 20-30millisecond delay?

we only noticed it when mixing down in post...

No you wouldn't.  I guess I read it wrong, but I thought someone implied that the reason that at big shows, that monitors are run from the side of the stage was because of the delay problem.  I wasn't really referring to the recording.

[mmmatt]

only the tiniest of clubs have the monitor mix at foh.
just going by personal experience. every time we've send a sbd signal back down the snake to the stage we had to add delay in post/mixdown, even in venues where the stage-to-foh distance was only about 40'

If I'm reading this right you are suggesting that the onstage mics are receiving the signal earlier than the board>snake?  That would be a real mystery, given that the onstage mics only get sound after it's travelled at least as much cable distance just to come out of the p.a.

If there's some discrepancy, it might be in the other direction - board snake gets there first because some post-board processing equipment is delaying the signal to the p.a.  
e.g. the p.a. speakers sit 6 ft in front of the band.  In order to synch the direct sound with the p.a. sound, the p.a. is delayed by 6 ms so the direct sound can travel (catch up to the p.a.) and hit the listeners ears at the same time.

are you saying it is typical practice to delay the board to the pa to compesate for the space between the on stage amps and the PA speakers?  I've never heard that one yet... what about if the leslie is 3' from the pa, the bass 6' the drums 10' and the guitar is 8'.  Then what do you do?  You may be right but this again sounds like a walk through esotaria to me.  that 3-10 ms delay would surely go unnoticed.  You would get more delay from the bounce off the rear of the stage.

Matt

[hexyjones]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I've never understood why someone would want to mix on-stage mics with the sbd?

Technically, an onstage mic "is" the soundboard.  Look at the guitar amp, the drums, the bass amp, etc.   Mics!

If you're "in" so well with these small clubs, here's a better approach. 

1. Leave your snake(patchbay) and delay at home!
2. Make friends with the sound engineer, which sounds like you already have.
3. Brag, brag, brag about the killer mics you want to set up on stage.
4. Convince him to use those as overhead inputs from stage and use them for the house mix.
5. If he does or doesn't, just get him to  pick up the inputs into the board and then send you the sbd/your mics mix to a sub/buss directly to you.

"Brilliant!"

Its wrong to assume that every instrument will be in the soundboard mix...or evenly represented in the mix...
Also - live sound mixes generally use a close mic'ed technique - i.e. each instrunment has a mic set right in front of the speaker...this tends to produce a more discrete sound to each element of the mix...not always desireable on tape...

If one guitarist is very loud onstage - he will likely be unrepresented in the SBD mix...

The onstage "taper" mics are not focused on one instument - you get a very nice blend - but the vocals are generally underrepresented. - Stage monitors tend to be "beamy" and are firing the oposite direction of the music - making them hard to capture...

A few of the bands I tape these days use a small two-way system - they use vocals and an overhead on the drums...that mix is the PERFECT compliment for my onstage mics....

And running monitors side stage has nothing to do with dealy - its about communication...a lot easier to make a "more vocals in my monitor" gesture to a guy 10 feet away, than a guy 50 ft away in a dark room...

[dklein]

are you saying it is typical practice to delay the board to the pa to compesate for the space between the on stage amps and the PA speakers?  I've never heard that one yet... what about if the leslie is 3' from the pa, the bass 6' the drums 10' and the guitar is 8'.  Then what do you do?  You may be right but this again sounds like a walk through esotaria to me.  that 3-10 ms delay would surely go unnoticed.  You would get more delay from the bounce off the rear of the stage.

Matt

I'm not saying it's typical - I really don't know.  But I do know that in one of my regular haunts, I was chatting with the house sound dude and they ran that very 6ms delay on the drum kit (and it might have even just been the kick drum).  He explained why and it made sense - the band does sit 'behind' the stacks, with the drummer furthest back.  Without the delay, the p.a. will actually deliver the sound a few ms earlier than the natural, direct sound and this delay brought them back together (from the audience perspective).  As far as your scenario with different distances, I suppose they zero in on the drums since they have the greatest transients.

I'd suggest that anyone really interested should grab a mic & board source and play in multitrack.  You can get some pretty weird phase stuff going on just by sliding one of the sources a few milliseconds back and forth.  It's almost as if there's a very narrow critical window where the weirdness occurs.  Going beyond that (+ or -) and the effect isn't as severe.  But when the sources are very nearly synched, that's when the weirdness occurs.

[Tim]

I've heard of that practice as well....

[NJFunk]

are you saying it is typical practice to delay the board to the pa to compesate for the space between the on stage amps and the PA speakers?  I've never heard that one yet... what about if the leslie is 3' from the pa, the bass 6' the drums 10' and the guitar is 8'.  Then what do you do?  You may be right but this again sounds like a walk through esotaria to me.  that 3-10 ms delay would surely go unnoticed.  You would get more delay from the bounce off the rear of the stage.

Matt

I'm not saying it's typical - I really don't know.  But I do know that in one of my regular haunts, I was chatting with the house sound dude and they ran that very 6ms delay on the drum kit (and it might have even just been the kick drum).  He explained why and it made sense - the band does sit 'behind' the stacks, with the drummer furthest back.  Without the delay, the p.a. will actually deliver the sound a few ms earlier than the natural, direct sound and this delay brought them back together (from the audience perspective).  As far as your scenario with different distances, I suppose they zero in on the drums since they have the greatest transients.

I'd suggest that anyone really interested should grab a mic & board source and play in multitrack.  You can get some pretty weird phase stuff going on just by sliding one of the sources a few milliseconds back and forth.  It's almost as if there's a very narrow critical window where the weirdness occurs.  Going beyond that (+ or -) and the effect isn't as severe.  But when the sources are very nearly synched, that's when the weirdness occurs.

This actually makes a lot of sense, and not to exactly sync up the sounds, either, but rather to make sure that you hear the sound from the stage first.  This is the same concept used in amplifying broadway shows.  Did you ever notice at a play that the dialog always sounds like it's coming from the actor or actress despite large sound reinforcement speakers hanging all around the theater?  Why doesn't the dialog sound like it's coming from the speakers?  They're certainly louder than the actor/actress on stage.  The answer is in the way the human ear works.  If you hear the same sound from two different sources, with one slightly delayed from the other, the sound appears to come from the direction of the first source, but appears to be at the volume of the loudest source.  Therefore, if you have reinforcement speakers around a broadway theater, but you make sure they're delayed (and the delay can be < 10 ms for this to work) enough to be "behind" the sound coming from the actor's mouth, the dialog appears to come from the stage but at the volume of the reinforcement speakers. 

It would make a lot of sense if sophisticated soundmen/systems would delay the PA to be "behind" the music from the stage so that the even the amplified sound in the PA appears to come from direction of the musicians, not the PA.  That would certainly make it appear to be a much more natural sounding concert experience. 

[Kwonfidelity]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I've never understood why someone would want to mix on-stage mics with the sbd?

Technically, an onstage mic "is" the soundboard.  Look at the guitar amp, the drums, the bass amp, etc.   Mics!

If you're "in" so well with these small clubs, here's a better approach. 

1. Leave your snake(patchbay) and delay at home!
2. Make friends with the sound engineer, which sounds like you already have.
3. Brag, brag, brag about the killer mics you want to set up on stage.
4. Convince him to use those as overhead inputs from stage and use them for the house mix.
5. If he does or doesn't, just get him to  pick up the inputs into the board and then send you the sbd/your mics mix to a sub/buss directly to you.

"Brilliant!"

Its wrong to assume that every instrument will be in the soundboard mix...or evenly represented in the mix...
Also - live sound mixes generally use a close mic'ed technique - i.e. each instrunment has a mic set right in front of the speaker...this tends to produce a more discrete sound to each element of the mix...not always desireable on tape...

If one guitarist is very loud onstage - he will likely be unrepresented in the SBD mix...

The onstage "taper" mics are not focused on one instument - you get a very nice blend - but the vocals are generally underrepresented. - Stage monitors tend to be "beamy" and are firing the oposite direction of the music - making them hard to capture...

A few of the bands I tape these days use a small two-way system - they use vocals and an overhead on the drums...that mix is the PERFECT compliment for my onstage mics....

And running monitors side stage has nothing to do with dealy - its about communication...a lot easier to make a "more vocals in my monitor" gesture to a guy 10 feet away, than a guy 50 ft away in a dark room...

Agreed.  I'm a contracted Midas Engineer and am currently training on Digi's Icon Systems and have been running FOH for over 8 years.  Also have been taping on-stage 2ch and 4ch mixes for instrumental bands (ie Vinyl, Kimock, Redman, etc.) for a while, too.

I'm just a little baffled about this "bring  your snake" idea.  As a engineer, I'd scratch my head if I saw that and think to myself, "Now, I've seen it all!"

And as far as all this delay talk...

Every good...great...engineer uses delays all over the house:  Wedges, IFB, near field FOH, etc, etc.  It's not necessary, really, or I should say it's not critical.  But it sure gives everyone from the crew, stage hands, and artists to all feel like they are on the same wavelength, sonically.  It makes a huge difference and it adds that much more to the professionality and integrity of the engineers on hand doing what they know best.

[hexyjones]

Right - but remember - this hobby is not limited to recording the likes of Kimock, Vinyl, Panic, etc...Your talking about a very different situation...I'm not that dumb - I wouldnt show up at Kimock show with a snake...

I never tape stuff like that(not that I wouldn't if I chose to go to a show)

I am more interested in whats happening regionally and locally- college bands. You have better access to the band and can make better tapes...plus you can stumble on to some good bands - and its a lot cheaper! The regional scene is hot in the Harrisburg, PA area at moment...IMO.

So - there is no FOH - no one I would call a true engineer - more like "soundman" and smallish PA...half the time I have to tell the soundguy this and that...(I've done a ton of club/frat stuff in the past - not huge PAs - 24 - 3 way)

I'd probably tape them a few times - make some contact - and then show up with the snake...

I dont have a snake - but I have my eye out for one..I havent really had a need yet...

[dklein]

This actually makes a lot of sense, and not to exactly sync up the sounds, either, but rather to make sure that you hear the sound from the stage first.  This is the same concept used in amplifying broadway shows.  Did you ever notice at a play that the dialog always sounds like it's coming from the actor or actress despite large sound reinforcement speakers hanging all around the theater?  Why doesn't the dialog sound like it's coming from the speakers?  They're certainly louder than the actor/actress on stage.  The answer is in the way the human ear works.  If you hear the same sound from two different sources, with one slightly delayed from the other, the sound appears to come from the direction of the first source, but appears to be at the volume of the loudest source.  Therefore, if you have reinforcement speakers around a broadway theater, but you make sure they're delayed (and the delay can be < 10 ms for this to work) enough to be "behind" the sound coming from the actor's mouth, the dialog appears to come from the stage but at the volume of the reinforcement speakers. 

fyi - this is known as the Haas effect and is usually good to about 25ms.  Any greater than that and the brain perceives 2 separate sources.  Any less and the brain blends the sound, with location based on the first to arrive.

Kwon - thanks for the info.  Always good to hear from the guys making the sound.

Corkscrew - is that a snake in your pants or are you just happy... 

[mmmatt]

dklien... you always end up being right ya bastard!  Kwon, thanks for the info... Never thought that there would be that much thought ever put into innerstage delay issues.  As for the snake thing... I don't own a snake, but I cary enough cord to wrap around most venues.  A large duffle bag full of cords, power strips, adaptors, etc.  Between that, my mixer, my lappy, my stands, and my mics, I make at least 2 trips to the car when I do a multi or a matrix.  Crazy looks sometimes, but more times than not I get the red carpet with venue holding doors and carying my bags for me.  FOH engineers are usually impressed that I have every cord/adaptor known to man and I have gotten compliments from some saying how impressed they were at my preparedness and my rig.  The only reason I don't have a snake is because my cords are usuable in different ways and as a snake they are just a snake.
     That being said, this has been an informative thread for me.  I like it when I learn something new.

Matt

[Tim]

Agreed.  I'm a contracted Midas Engineer and am currently training on Digi's Icon Systems and have been running FOH for over 8 years.  Also have been taping on-stage 2ch and 4ch mixes for instrumental bands (ie Vinyl, Kimock, Redman, etc.) for a while, too.

I'm just a little baffled about this "bring  your snake" idea.  As a engineer, I'd scratch my head if I saw that and think to myself, "Now, I've seen it all!"

And as far as all this delay talk...

Every good...great...engineer uses delays all over the house:  Wedges, IFB, near field FOH, etc, etc.  It's not necessary, really, or I should say it's not critical.  But it sure gives everyone from the crew, stage hands, and artists to all feel like they are on the same wavelength, sonically.  It makes a huge difference and it adds that much more to the professionality and integrity of the engineers on hand doing what they know best.

+T Robert

good to see a real pro in here giving his opinion and perhaps dispelling some myths

[mmmatt]

Agreed.  I'm a contracted Midas Engineer

BTW, I've heard that the midas consoles are the cat's ass.  supposed to be some of the best onboard pre's $$ can buy.  Care to share your thoughts?

Matt

[Kwonfidelity]

Agreed.  I'm a contracted Midas Engineer

BTW, I've heard that the midas consoles are the cat's ass.  supposed to be some of the best onboard pre's $$ can buy.  Care to share your thoughts?

Matt

You'll never get me to shut up!   

The best in the business. And for road crews it makes it a ton easier.  People are realizing that touting around a Midas will sometimes completely eliminate the need to have an amp rack.  And when I make my rounds to new Midas users, people of all ages can all look the same - a kid at a candy store.  It's the equivalent of...say...going from 16bit to 24bit.  No looking back...

But even better, the new Icon from Digi, and it's brother Venue for live apps on the market now, you can effectively eliminate the effects rack.

Both without compromising any quality.

Eh, successfully hijacked another thread 

[heath]

so I'm guessing you like the Icon...  I haven't had a chance to get my hands on one yet, but I am hoping to play soon.  The only downside to it in my book, is that Digidesign makes it   

[mmmatt]

Agreed.  I'm a contracted Midas Engineer

BTW, I've heard that the midas consoles are the cat's ass.  supposed to be some of the best onboard pre's $$ can buy.  Care to share your thoughts?

Matt

You'll never get me to shut up!   

The best in the business. And for road crews it makes it a ton easier.  People are realizing that touting around a Midas will sometimes completely eliminate the need to have an amp rack.  And when I make my rounds to new Midas users, people of all ages can all look the same - a kid at a candy store.  It's the equivalent of...say...going from 16bit to 24bit.  No looking back...

But even better, the new Icon from Digi, and it's brother Venue for live apps on the market now, you can effectively eliminate the effects rack.

Both without compromising any quality.

Eh, successfully hijacked another thread 

the one I saw was running powered PA speakers (or so I thought), but that can be done with any board, right?  what do you mean by eliminating an amp rack?  Plese explain, I'm a little slow 

Matt

[Kwonfidelity]

Pre"amp" racks for stage mics   

Heath, the Icon has blown me away in all aspects of what it can do.  Routing, assigns, monitor/foh modes, pug-ins...very nice, and very powerful!  Yes, it is a Digi machine and when I first saw the press on it I was rolling my eyes...until I played with one (first one at Roo).

I, on the other hand, always live and trust my A&Heath machine, with all the outboards needed.  Besides, blinking, flashing, moving lights...yeah!   

[heath]

I'll have top get my hands on one sometime.  I'd like to look at it.  Just not a viable option at all for me....unless my powerball numbers hit, in which case I'm buying everyone on the board one piece of gear. 

[mmmatt]

I'll have top get my hands on one sometime.  I'd like to look at it.  Just not a viable option at all for me....unless my powerball numbers hit, in which case I'm buying everyone on the board one piece of gear. 

I'll go for a nice pair of schoeps Heath, and I'll move out there and take your job too... you won't need that anymore

Pre"amp" racks for stage mics

Heath, the Icon has blown me away in all aspects of what it can do. Routing, assigns, monitor/foh modes, pug-ins...very nice, and very powerful! Yes, it is a Digi machine and when I first saw the press on it I was rolling my eyes...until I played with one (first one at Roo).

I, on the other hand, always live and trust my A&Heath machine, with all the outboards needed. Besides, blinking, flashing, moving lights...yeah!

heh... should have known you meant the pre's.  Wouldn't an engineer want a little mix of flavors though?  Maybe a couple outboard pre's would round out the midas touch. 
      One thing about thoes midas consoles is they put about $0 into the glitz... they look like kid toys.  None of that matters if they have the sound though.  The venue, where I was taking hits off a midas, was the sonic equvelant of a gym, so it was tough for me to tell anything... it was all crap.  I'm sure I'll be seeing more around though.

Matt

[Tim]

I'll have top get my hands on one sometime. I'd like to look at it. Just not a viable option at all for me....unless my powerball numbers hit, in which case I'm buying everyone on the board one piece of gear.

I accept your offer

[heath]

I'll have top get my hands on one sometime. I'd like to look at it. Just not a viable option at all for me....unless my powerball numbers hit, in which case I'm buying everyone on the board one piece of gear.

I accept your offer

That offer was only intended for those of us who actually tape!! 

ZING!

[Tim]

oh no, we've got a binding contract buddy

[heath]

oh no, we've got a binding contract buddy

leave it to the lawyer...   

[Tim]

oh no, we've got a binding contract buddy

leave it to the lawyer...