Topic: Zoom F8

[voltronic]

Bummer, just heard back from Zoom in regards to ganging channel's together.

Dear Carl,

Unfortunately not. You can link two tracks together but because of the analog style gain controls they each have to be adjusted manually.


Sincerely,

ANDREW CUZZO

This is not a dealbreaker for me, as you can still adjust two at a time with your two hands. The ganging is more input on the 680, with it's one knob.

Deal breaker.

I'm a bit confused by what the Zoom rep said.  He says that you can link channels, but that the gain controls are "analog-style" - does that mean they are actual analog gain pots, or just that they look like actual knobs but are actually digital gain controls?  If it's digital, there's no reason they couldn't do ganging with a software update.

If it has a per-channel level display that pops up when you adjust the levels though, ganged controls aren't necessary as you can just match the numbers.

[pohaku]

I think that Lanza summarizes the situation as it stands now and the way it will likely go.  The pro sound guys with bigger budgets will tend to stay with SD.  Folks on limited budgets will tend towards the F8 if reasonably well implemented.  If a 788 is just out of reach, there will be the F8. Might not take sales from SD, but F8 price is about half of R88 and tascams 8 track.  So f8 should put pressure on tascam and Roland at these price points if the internal performance is equivalent or better.

I agree, I doubt it will take sales from the 788T, but it might take sales from the 702/722/744.  Especially for non-pros or lower budget pros who would normally be stretching to get one of the lower level SD units.  Pricewise, the 788 is out of the picture for many people, but they might well have considered the lower level SD units if they didn't really need 8 tracks.  I've been thinking about a 744, or a Tascam HS-P82, but now that the Zoom is just around the corner, I will wait and see how it really performs before making a buying decision.  Hopefully, it will be good enough to cause Tascam and Roland to up their game to be competitive.

[H₂O]

I think tascam has already put it's sauce in the pot with the DR-70D

[Gutbucket]

I only wish they splashed a bit more of that sauce on the DR680mkii

[Jonmac]

Bummer, just heard back from Zoom in regards to ganging channel's together.

Dear Carl,

Unfortunately not. You can link two tracks together but because of the analog style gain controls they each have to be adjusted manually.


Sincerely,

ANDREW CUZZO

This is not a dealbreaker for me, as you can still adjust two at a time with your two hands. The ganging is more input on the 680, with it's one knob.

Deal breaker.

I'm a bit confused by what the Zoom rep said.  He says that you can link channels, but that the gain controls are "analog-style" - does that mean they are actual analog gain pots, or just that they look like actual knobs but are actually digital gain controls?  If it's digital, there's no reason they couldn't do ganging with a software update.

If it has a per-channel level display that pops up when you adjust the levels though, ganged controls aren't necessary as you can just match the numbers.

I suspect that he means channels can be linked into stereo pairs in the same way as the H6, but you still have to adjust left and right levels with separate knobs.

[voltronic]

Bummer, just heard back from Zoom in regards to ganging channel's together.

Dear Carl,

Unfortunately not. You can link two tracks together but because of the analog style gain controls they each have to be adjusted manually.


Sincerely,

ANDREW CUZZO

This is not a dealbreaker for me, as you can still adjust two at a time with your two hands. The ganging is more input on the 680, with it's one knob.

Deal breaker.

I'm a bit confused by what the Zoom rep said.  He says that you can link channels, but that the gain controls are "analog-style" - does that mean they are actual analog gain pots, or just that they look like actual knobs but are actually digital gain controls?  If it's digital, there's no reason they couldn't do ganging with a software update.

If it has a per-channel level display that pops up when you adjust the levels though, ganged controls aren't necessary as you can just match the numbers.

I suspect that he means channels can be linked into stereo pairs in the same way as the H6, but you still have to adjust left and right levels with separate knobs.

If that's true, then they're carrying over what is in my opinion one of the strangest things about the H6.  What's the point of linking the channels if you can't link the level controls?  It hard pans the channels for you and that's it.

[Ozpeter]

Maybe I'm missing the point, but perhaps the controls on the front panel are the equivalent of trim controls on a mixer, not faders, and you would not normally expect to have ganged trims on a mixer, only ganged faders (under your fingers, or in software if a digital mixer).  What you are doing is simply recording at an appropriate gain the input from up to 8 mics to 8 recording channels, and you'll do all balancing and fades etc in post production.  The recorder doesn't care how the mics relate to each other - it just records the inputs.

[Jonmac]

Bummer, just heard back from Zoom in regards to ganging channel's together.

Dear Carl,

Unfortunately not. You can link two tracks together but because of the analog style gain controls they each have to be adjusted manually.


Sincerely,

ANDREW CUZZO

This is not a dealbreaker for me, as you can still adjust two at a time with your two hands. The ganging is more input on the 680, with it's one knob.

Deal breaker.

I'm a bit confused by what the Zoom rep said.  He says that you can link channels, but that the gain controls are "analog-style" - does that mean they are actual analog gain pots, or just that they look like actual knobs but are actually digital gain controls?  If it's digital, there's no reason they couldn't do ganging with a software update.

If it has a per-channel level display that pops up when you adjust the levels though, ganged controls aren't necessary as you can just match the numbers.

I suspect that he means channels can be linked into stereo pairs in the same way as the H6, but you still have to adjust left and right levels with separate knobs.

If that's true, then they're carrying over what is in my opinion one of the strangest things about the H6.  What's the point of linking the channels if you can't link the level controls?  It hard pans the channels for you and that's it.

If you link 2 channels you end up with a single stereo file rather than two mono files that have to be combined into a stereo file in the editing stage.

I think that most people on this forum record to stereo,it makes the H6 more versatile, 6 ISO tracks, 3 stereo tracks, or a combination or the two.

[stevetoney]

Maybe I'm missing the point, but perhaps the controls on the front panel are the equivalent of trim controls on a mixer, not faders, and you would not normally expect to have ganged trims on a mixer, only ganged faders (under your fingers, or in software if a digital mixer).  What you are doing is simply recording at an appropriate gain the input from up to 8 mics to 8 recording channels, and you'll do all balancing and fades etc in post production.  The recorder doesn't care how the mics relate to each other - it just records the inputs.

I also made this point a couple of weeks ago.  Either you and I don't understand what's going on with these new multi-channel recorders or alot of commenters in this thread don't. 

Anyway, this has an integrated digital mixer, so it seems to me that you can set up whatever routing you want for recording to your tracks, right?  (Or maybe I'm just whacked and misunderstanding how an 8 channel recorder that's also a mixer would typically work.)  So if my thinking is right you should be able to do whatever balancing, channel ganging you want on-board from the mixer at the output of the digital mixer/faders...including ganging all faders together or by outputting it to a master fader if you want to.  If that function is written into the software, it should be or can be.  In other words, why couldn't recorded tracks be setup downstream of your mixer?  Similarly, I'm sure some people would want the tracks recorded upstream of the mixer.

Anyway, point being that you shouldn't even necessarily have to wait until post to balance channels if they include a powerful digital mixer with the F8, though I agree with you that I don't care all that much that channels are balanced at capture since I tend to isolate each channel separately when I'm working on them in post anyway.

[H₂O]

I also made this point a couple of weeks ago.  Either you and I don't understand what's going on with these new multi-channel recorders or alot of commenters in this thread don't. 

Anyway, this has an integrated digital mixer, so it seems to me that you can set up whatever routing you want for recording to your tracks, right?  (Or maybe I'm just whacked and misunderstanding how an 8 channel recorder that's also a mixer would typically work.)  So if my thinking is right you should be able to do whatever balancing, channel ganging you want on-board from the mixer at the output of the digital mixer/faders...including ganging all faders together or by outputting it to a master fader if you want to.  If that function is written into the software, it should be or can be.  In other words, why couldn't recorded tracks be setup downstream of your mixer?  Similarly, I'm sure some people would want the tracks recorded upstream of the mixer.

Anyway, point being that you shouldn't even necessarily have to wait until post to balance channels if they include a powerful digital mixer with the F8, though I agree with you that I don't care all that much that channels are balanced at capture since I tend to isolate each channel separately when I'm working on them in post anyway.

I would take the Mixer portion as a grain of salt - esp at this price point - I would be very suprissed if you can route any channel to any channel also my guess is that for mixing you would have 2 non-assignable mix tracks that you can select which of your 8 tracks to add to the mix and you Pan Left or Right to add levels to the mix - more or less a mix bus - This is how the hs-p82 functions and although it is an older machine would think this F8 would have similar limitations


The F8's primary function is a recorder first and mixer second

[thunderbolt]

Maybe I'm missing the point, but perhaps the controls on the front panel are the equivalent of trim controls on a mixer, not faders, and you would not normally expect to have ganged trims on a mixer, only ganged faders (under your fingers, or in software if a digital mixer).  What you are doing is simply recording at an appropriate gain the input from up to 8 mics to 8 recording channels, and you'll do all balancing and fades etc in post production.  The recorder doesn't care how the mics relate to each other - it just records the inputs.

I also made this point a couple of weeks ago.  Either you and I don't understand what's going on with these new multi-channel recorders or alot of commenters in this thread don't. 

Anyway, this has an integrated digital mixer, so it seems to me that you can set up whatever routing you want for recording to your tracks, right?  (Or maybe I'm just whacked and misunderstanding how an 8 channel recorder that's also a mixer would typically work.)  So if my thinking is right you should be able to do whatever balancing, channel ganging you want on-board from the mixer at the output of the digital mixer/faders...including ganging all faders together or by outputting it to a master fader if you want to.  If that function is written into the software, it should be or can be.  In other words, why couldn't recorded tracks be setup downstream of your mixer?  Similarly, I'm sure some people would want the tracks recorded upstream of the mixer.

Anyway, point being that you shouldn't even necessarily have to wait until post to balance channels if they include a powerful digital mixer with the F8, though I agree with you that I don't care all that much that channels are balanced at capture since I tend to isolate each channel separately when I'm working on them in post anyway.

Ganged controls really seem to be a desired feature for people who record music.  We are using multichannel recorders a bit differently than a typical user.  Keep in mind that the F8 end-user is expected (at least by Zoom) to be mixing wireless lavs and booms.  Their users' purpose is not to balance levels over a long period, as concert tapers do.  They are mixing dialogue and effects on the fly.  Yes, they are recording ISOs, but the reality is that a large number of on-the-fly mixes end up in the final project.  Production sound mixers are expected to provide quality *mixes* not just ISOs.  The big problem I see for film production users is that it seems the F8 trims do double-duty as faders (although I don't see there's a menu to switch back and forth).  There's no other control surface (like a CL-8).  Mixing TV or film sound on-the-fly with those little knobs would be a royal PIA, and unless they offer a separate control surface, I don't see how it will really take off.  And needing that control surface will add $$$ to the cost, which kind of defeats the purpose.

On the 788T, you can record eight ISOs pre- or post-fader and you get four more tracks of mixdown.  However, when it first came out, I believe SD made all the recording tracks post-fade, because the device was marketed to TV/film people.  What they offer on the mixdown tracks is a master volume control, which is the closest thing to a ganged control. 

I think the F8 in its current incarnation *favors* concert tapers more than film/TV people for that very reason.  Are there volume fluctuations we have to respond to?  Yes, but if levels are set on the conservative side, you can usually get away with minimal fader riding, so not a huge deal.  And this assumes people here will be running 8 channels.  I highly doubt it.  I'll bet most tapers will run a 4-channel matrix, 6-channel max.

[yltfan]

I wonder if it's possible to gang two or more channels in the iphone control.

[Gutbucket]

Without looking into it, I sort of assume the mixer is basically an 8>2 design, limited to a 2-channel main out and perhaps one or two separate 2-channel aux outs, those outs recordable as stereo tracks.  In other words I assume there is no post-fader recording option for each individual channel.

I could be wrong and hope I am.

[stevetoney]

Without looking into it, I sort of assume the mixer is basically an 8>2 design, limited to a 2-channel main out and perhaps one or two separate 2-channel aux outs, those outs recordable as stereo tracks.  In other words I assume there is no post-fader recording option for each individual channel.

I could be wrong and hope I am.

I know it's hard to know based on the limited marketing information what's under the hood, but the following statement is from their webpage...

The F8's onboard mixer enables flexible signal routing from all inputs to all outputs, either pre- or post-fader, with user-adjustable level, pan, and input/output delay.

I'm not an FOH engineer knowledgeable person, but doesn't that sound like you should be able to assign output recording channels and/or perform most basic mixing functions?

In addition, it also says the following about the headphone monitor function...

Signals can be freely routed to the left and/or right headphone channels, pre- or post-fader, and the headphone output can be switched to mono.

Again, you can't know for sure what's under the hood until they either start shipping or publish a user manual, but it seems that if you can route any signal combo out to the headphone, that same functionality should also be available for writing to channels...and it also seems consistent functionality-wise and/or architecturally with the first statement I highlighted above.

As to earlier comments about these features not being available at this price point, I don't think anyone knows what features are logical on this unit since this recorder is clearly breaking vastly new ground on the continuum of price point vs. features...which is of course the reason it's generating so much buzz.

(I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm trying to reconcile and understand what I'm reading on their website to some of the comments being made in this thread about what people think the unit doesn't do.)

[Gutbucket]

All inputs (physical)= 10 8 channels: analog (8 ), digital (2) (strike that, not via BNC, maybe usb)
All outputs (physical) = 6 channels: main out (2), sub-out (2), headphone out (2)

Can't tell yet from the information provided about available assignable recording points to memory card within that mixing structure.

[edit- see below]