Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: leehookem on April 26, 2015, 05:32:11 PM
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Here's Part 1 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=170230.0)
Here's Part 2 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172109.0)
Tom Duffy from TASCAM (http://taperssection.com/index.php?action=profile;u=53688), "site rep"
And thanks to voltronic, for putting together a FAQ page with recommended settings (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172795.0).
http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/overview/
-Compact, professional-grade audio recorder designed to be used in combination with a DSLR camera
-Uses an SD/SDHC/SDXC card as recording medium (up to 128 GB)
-High-quality recording inputs through Tascam original High Definition Discrete Architecture (HDDA) microphone preamps
-NE5532 operational amplifiers for even higher audio performance (also used on DA-3000)
-In addition to ordinary stereo recording, simultaneous recording of up to four channels is possible
-Four channels can be mixed down to a stereo signal
-Recording levels can be adjusted independently for inputs 1–4
-Dual recording function allows two files to be recorded simultaneously at different levels
-Recording at 44.1/48/96 kHz, 16/24-bit, linear PCM (WAV format)
-Broadcast Wave Format (BWF) supported as WAV recording format
-Two built-in omnidirectional microphones
-Four XLR/TRS combo inputs can provide phantom power (+24V/+48V)
-+24 dBu maximum input level (20 dB headroom)
-Additional unbalanced input for channels 1 and 2 (stereo mini jack) supports mics that require plug-in power, allowing the input of video mics and other high-output mics
-Switchable low-cut filter conveniently reduces low-frequency noise (40 Hz, 80 Hz, 120 Hz)
-Switchable limiter to prevent clipping
-High-quality audio can be output to a DSLR camera for recording
-Camera input enables convenient monitoring of audio from a DSLR camera
-Selectable mid-side decoding for use with MS microphone setups
-Slate tone functions (automatic/manual) to simplify synchronization of video files when editing
-Pre-recording function allows the unit to record the two seconds of sound before recording is activated
-Auto recording function to start start and stop recording by input level
-A new file can be created during recording (manually or by file size)
-Self-timer function to start recording after a set period of time
-Jump-back function allows the last several seconds of the currently played file to be replayed again by simply pressing a button
-Selectable delay to eliminate time lags caused by differences in the distances of two input sources
-QUICK button allows easy access to various functions
-Mark function convenient for moving to specific locations
-Equalizers for playback, and level alignment function to enhance the perceived overall sound pressure
-File name format can be set to use a user-defined word or the date
-Resume function to memorize the playback position before the unit is turned off
-Line output and headphones output with individual level controls (3.5-mm jack)
-Dedicated remote control jack for use with RC-10 and RC-3F (sold separately)
-Hold switch to prevent accidental operation
-Low-noise buttons
-128 x 64 pixel LC display with backlight
-USB 2.0 port
-Stand adapter (¼ inch) on bottom side to attach the unit to a tripod
-DSLR bracket for easy camera attachment and removal
-Hot shoe mount (accessible when not using the DSLR bracket)
-Handles on the front left and right sides protect the screen and can be used to attach a shoulder belt
-Operates on four AA batteries, an AC adapter (sold separately: TASCAM PS-P515U), external battery pack (sold separately: TASCAM BP-6AA) or USB bus power
(http://tascam.com/content/images/universal/product_detail/867/medium/dr-70d_p_user.jpg)
(http://tascam.com/content/images/universal/product_detail/867/medium/dr-70d_p_rear.jpg)
(http://tascam.com/content/images/universal/product_detail/867/medium/dr-70d_p_left.jpg)
(http://tascam.com/content/images/universal/product_detail/867/medium/dr-70d_p_right.jpg)
(http://tascam.com/content/images/universal/product_detail/867/medium/dr-70d_p_front.jpg)
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I got my unit last week, but finally put it through its paces this weekend. I discovered a slight annoyance that won't affect me because I won't be using the settings that this is an issue for, but nature recordists will DEFINITELY have a problem with, unless the issue is unique to my unit.
The basic problem is that there's diginoise present when adjusting gain knobs 1 and 4 at the highest gain settings. The good news though is that noise doesn't exist when the knobs aren't being moved. Also, the noise doesn't exist on knobs 2 and 3 at all. It only exists with the input gain setting on MIC and the basic settings either high or High + Plus. It's the same with both knobs 1 and 4. The issue isn't present when any of the channels are set on the input setting to LINE. The issue is present 100% of the time I move the gain knob on knobs 1 and 4...in other words, it's not intermittent or sporadic. So to summarize...
Gain knobs 2 and 3 - No issues on any settings
Gain knobs 1 and 4 - Digi-noise is present when...
Basic - Low, Input - Line, No noise
Basic - Low, Input - Mic, No noise
Basic - High, Input - Line, No noise
Basic - High, Input - Mic, YES NOISE
Basic - High + Plus, Input - Line, No noise
Basic - High + Plus, Input - Mic, YES NOISE
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I got my unit last week, but finally put it through its paces this weekend. I discovered a slight annoyance that won't affect me because I won't be using the settings that this is an issue for, but nature recordists will DEFINITELY have a problem with, unless the issue is unique to my unit.
The basic problem is that there's diginoise present when adjusting gain knobs 1 and 4 at the highest gain settings. The good news though is that noise doesn't exist when the knobs aren't being moved. Also, the noise doesn't exist on knobs 2 and 3 at all. It only exists with the input gain setting on MIC and the basic settings either high or High + Plus. It's the same with both knobs 1 and 4. The issue isn't present when any of the channels are set on the input setting to LINE. The issue is present 100% of the time I move the gain knob on knobs 1 and 4...in other words, it's not intermittent or sporadic. So to summarize...
Gain knobs 2 and 3 - No issues on any settings
Gain knobs 1 and 4 - Digi-noise is present when...
Basic - Low, Input - Line, No noise
Basic - Low, Input - Mic, No noise
Basic - High, Input - Line, No noise
Basic - High, Input - Mic, YES NOISE
Basic - High + Plus, Input - Line, No noise
Basic - High + Plus, Input - Mic, YES NOISE
Weird. When you say this only happens when the input is set to MIC, does is also occur when the input is set to MIC+PHANTOM? (For those that don't know, that's how you enable phantom on the 70D. MIC is the setting one would use for dynamic or ribbon mics.)
Besides testing with and without phantom (at 24 and 48V), the other test I'd be curious about is if this occurs with and without mics connected.
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Weird. When you say this only happens when the input is set to MIC, does is also occur when the input is set to MIC+PHANTOM? (For those that don't know, that's how you enable phantom on the 70D. MIC is the setting one would use for dynamic or ribbon mics.)
Besides testing with and without phantom (at 24 and 48V), the other test I'd be curious about is if this occurs with and without mics connected.
I won't be able to test it with mics + phantom since I don't have any mics that run off of 24V or 48V phantom and I don't have any line input devices to test it with other than mics. Sorry.
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This noise is also evident on the HS-P82 (which the preamp > AD arch in the 70D seams to be based off of) and only evident when you adjusting gain above around 60-70% gain when the PRE's are engaged - to note I have only tested with the -25 db pads enabled on the p82 and this would only come into play with very quite sources such as nature recording.
People have complained but Tascam hasn't come back with any fix
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Weird. When you say this only happens when the input is set to MIC, does is also occur when the input is set to MIC+PHANTOM? (For those that don't know, that's how you enable phantom on the 70D. MIC is the setting one would use for dynamic or ribbon mics.)
Besides testing with and without phantom (at 24 and 48V), the other test I'd be curious about is if this occurs with and without mics connected.
I won't be able to test it with mics + phantom since I don't have any mics that run off of 24V or 48V phantom and I don't have any line input devices to test it with other than mics. Sorry.
Well all of my mics require phantom so I can try this at some point. I didn't realize your CMMT's couldn't take phantom power - My Schoeps experience is limited to CMC5/6 and KCY>VMS, but I've never gotten to use any of the older models.
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Well all of my mics require phantom so I can try this at some point. I didn't realize your CMMT's couldn't take phantom power - My Schoeps experience is limited to CMC5/6 and KCY>VMS, but I've never gotten to use any of the older models.
CMT 30 F, CMMT 30 F and AF all originally ran at the older -12v Phantom power - One pair of Steve's CMMT's where modded in France to run at +12V Phantom and 2 are original -12V (his 5th is unknown as of yet)
I also have a pair of modded CMMT's that run at +12V. I will be modding to run at +48v - as right now they will run at +48V but pull 11.5mA which is far from ideal and only one pre-amp I have offers +12v Phantom.
The original -12 V CMT 30 F and CMMT 30F (not AF) can be modded somewhat easily to run at +12V or +48V but you do need to swap out all the NPN transistors with PNP transistors and flip a bunch of caps and diode's around (also some re-wiring in the head of the CMMT). The circuits are very similar to the newer CMC series.
The AF is a different bird though
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Someone mentioned lower output mics (like the Nak/TEAC/Primo family) - that's been the biggest challenge with this deck. More imperative to make soundcheck to pick the right gain range!
Last week for Yarn (dfc - 25 feet from stage) - my Sony ECM999PR Stereo Mic was at LOW on channel 3/4 - but I had levels cranked to max...maybe once I hit -12db. Should have used the HIGH setting.
My AUDIX M1280s, also on LOW, were closer to 2-3 o'clock...(more typical expectation of condensers)
Another time with my Altec 626s in our theatre - back of the room, maybe 35 feet from stage, country music - I needed the HIGH mic setting to get good gain.
First deck I've had where too low a input level has been an issue.
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One other problematic feature is that gain knobs go all the way down to nothing - no gain.
This is a pain when you're fighting "too high" levels.
When you get to the bottom range of the knob - you face an "all or nothing" scenario.
Being able to accidentally shut off all gain makes the backup recording feature less useful...it would be nice to be able to back the knobs all the way down and know your backup tracks will be ok.
It seems like the upper 2 gain ranges should pass some gain at minimum knob setting. Maybe not totally linear (relative to the LOW setting) - but it would be nice if there was some overlap and some gain passed at minimum knob.
Only the LOW setting should go to no gain.
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The biggest thing that people need to realize with this deck is that the Low, High, and High + Plus settings from the Basic menu ARE NOT the only settings that you need to use to set your gain structure. You also want to pay close attention to the gain setting on the input menu and set it to LINE or MIC. LINE gives you less gain and MIC gives you more.
So generally speaking, the louder the recorded content (loud rock and roll concerts) the more likely you'll move towards LINE on the input menu and LOW on the Basic menu...the quieter the recorded content (bird calls in nature) the more likely you'll move towards MIC on the input menu and HIGH + PLUS on the the Basic menu.
Most will probably default to setting this to MIC since they're recording with microphones, but based on my earlier message, I will always be using the LINE setting since I get the digi-noise I mentioned earlier on two of the four gain knobs.
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The biggest thing that people need to realize with this deck is that the Low, High, and High + Plus settings from the Basic menu ARE NOT the only settings that you need to use to set your gain structure. You also want to pay close attention to the gain setting on the input menu and set it to LINE or MIC. LINE gives you less gain and MIC gives you more.
So generally speaking, the louder the recorded content (loud rock and roll concerts) the more likely you'll move towards LINE on the input menu and LOW on the Basic menu...the quieter the recorded content (bird calls in nature) the more likely you'll move towards MIC on the input menu and HIGH + PLUS on the the Basic menu.
Most will probably default to setting this to MIC since they're recording with microphones, but based on my earlier message, I will always be using the LINE setting since I get the digi-noise I mentioned earlier on two of the four gain knobs.
Did any one figure out the difference between line 1 +2 stereo and 1+2 external power? Those are two choices if you are using a mini plug source.
Thanks
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Did any one figure out the difference between line 1 +2 stereo and 1+2 external power? Those are two choices if you are using a mini plug source.
Thanks
I'm not real sure what you mean, but I think you're asking about the last setting on the Basic menu. I was also initially confused by that, but figured it out.
Under Input 1/2, there are three choices;
- XLR/TRS, this is the choice most of us will use most of the time...that's means your inputs are from XLR 1 and 2 jacks
- EXT_STEREO, this means inputs 1 and 2 will record the signal from the 1/8 ext jack. This is the default because, remember that the DR70D is designed to be used with a digital camera. Use this setting the same as you would 'Line In' jack on the typical handheld recorder.
- EXT_POWER, this is the same as EXT_STEREO only with PIP turned on. Use this setting the same as 'Mic In' jack on the typical handheld recorder.
When you move through the menu to inputs 3/4, the choices are different than they were for inputs 1/2;
- XLR/TRS, again most of us will use this choice...this is to record the mics connected to XLR 3 and 4.
- MIC, this is the default and it records the internal mic onto Channels 3 and 4 instead of the XLRs.
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The biggest thing that people need to realize with this deck is that the Low, High, and High + Plus settings from the Basic menu ARE NOT the only settings that you need to use to set your gain structure. You also want to pay close attention to the gain setting on the input menu and set it to LINE or MIC. LINE gives you less gain and MIC gives you more.
So generally speaking, the louder the recorded content (loud rock and roll concerts) the more likely you'll move towards LINE on the input menu and LOW on the Basic menu...the quieter the recorded content (bird calls in nature) the more likely you'll move towards MIC on the input menu and HIGH + PLUS on the the Basic menu.
Most will probably default to setting this to MIC since they're recording with microphones, but based on my earlier message, I will always be using the LINE setting since I get the digi-noise I mentioned earlier on two of the four gain knobs.
Did any one figure out the difference between line 1 +2 stereo and 1+2 external power? Those are two choices if you are using a mini plug source.
Thanks
I think 1/2 stereo is a consumer -10db line level input - and 1/2 ext power is mic level+Plug-in power.
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The biggest thing that people need to realize with this deck is that the Low, High, and High + Plus settings from the Basic menu ARE NOT the only settings that you need to use to set your gain structure. You also want to pay close attention to the gain setting on the input menu and set it to LINE or MIC. LINE gives you less gain and MIC gives you more.
Have to check this - I just fired mine up and set 3/4 to the built-in mics(MIC) in BASIC - gain LOW (and then again with HIGH same result)
Then in INPUT - I made Input Gain MIC on channel 3 - and LINE on Channel 4 - and I can't see a difference...at least when it comes to the built in mics.
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Did any one figure out the difference between line 1 +2 stereo and 1+2 external power? Those are two choices if you are using a mini plug source.
Thanks
I'm not real sure what you mean, but I think you're asking about the last setting on the Basic menu. I was also initially confused by that, but figured it out.
Under Input 1/2, there are three choices;
- XLR/TRS, this is the choice most of us will use most of the time...that's means your inputs are from XLR 1 and 2 jacks
- EXT_STEREO, this means inputs 1 and 2 will record the signal from the 1/8 ext jack. This is the default because, remember that the DR70D is designed to be used with a digital camera. Use this setting the same as you would 'Line In' jack on the typical handheld recorder.
- EXT_POWER, this is the same as EXT_STEREO only with PIP turned on. Use this setting the same as 'Mic In' jack on the typical handheld recorder.
When you move through the menu to inputs 3/4, the choices are different than they were for inputs 1/2;
- XLR/TRS, again most of us will use this choice...this is to record the mics connected to XLR 3 and 4.
- MIC, this is the default and it records the internal mic onto Channels 3 and 4 instead of the XLRs.
I dont think there are any real gain selections there - other than the EXT switch from line to mic. Those are just source selectors.
I think the INPUT menu is where it happens - if your using MICS+PHANTOM - that's your only choice - you cant choose LINE (or MIC) there or your mics wont work.
The menu is poorly/confusingly named - INPUT > INPUT GAIN
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Have to check this - I just fired mine up and set 3/4 to the built-in mics(MIC) in BASIC - gain LOW (and then again with HIGH same result)
Then in INPUT - I made Input Gain MIC on channel 3 - and LINE on Channel 4 - and I can't see a difference...at least when it comes to the built in mics.
The MIC / LINE option should only affect the TRS/XLR combo jack inputs. When using the internal mics, it should make no difference.
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I dont think there are any real gain selections there - other than the EXT switch from line to mic. Those are just source selectors.
The difference between Mic and Line on most recorders is ONLY that there's a gain differece. Typically, the only thing that changes between the two settings is line setting is something like 20 db less sensitive than the mic setting.
I know that it seems like every recorder that comes out, it's asked whether line bypasses the internal mic preamps, but it's rarely the case. Even the SD7XX were confirmed by the SD designers that the line-in setting doesn't route differently than mic in and the only difference is that Line in is less sensitive to accomodate line in devices. It's a pretty safe assumption that (for what we've paid for this recorder) that's not the case here, but at the very minimum there's a significant gain difference between the two settings.
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I dont think there are any real gain selections there - other than the EXT switch from line to mic. Those are just source selectors.
Wanna bet?
What do you think is changing when you change the setting from mic to line?
There is no such setting in the BASIC menu...other than the acknowledged change in the EXT input level.
Under the INPUT menu > INPUT GAIN
you can choose "LINE" "MIC" or "MIC + PHANTOM" But two of those wont turn on your mics.
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you can choose "LINE" "MIC" or "MIC + PHANTOM" But two of those wont turn on your mics.
Ah I understand our difference.
Many people...me included...use either external preamps or mics that are powered from something other than phantom on the recorder. I have one pair of mics that have their own 12V power supply unit. If I'm not getting mic power from the recorder, I can use either Line or Mic on the input screen to record to any channel. Either one of them works and the only difference is the gain on Line is about 20db less sensitive than Mic. (I can further tweek the gain ranges through use of low, high, and high + on the basic menu.)
Life In Rewind, I believe what you're saying is that you're using the DR70D to power your mics. In your case, yes the only valid setting on the input menu is MIC+Phantom. In your case, Line or Mic won't do you any good since your mics won't function. Since they won't function in those settings, there's no gain difference between Line or Mic since you get nothing from those two settings anyway.
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you can choose "LINE" "MIC" or "MIC + PHANTOM" But two of those wont turn on your mics.
Ah I understand our difference.
Many people...me included...use either external preamps or mics that are powered from something other than phantom on the recorder. I have one pair of mics that have their own 12V power supply unit. If I'm not getting mic power from the recorder, I can use either Line or Mic on the input screen to record to any channel. Either one of them works and the only difference is the gain on Line is about 20db less sensitive than Mic. (I can further tweek the gain ranges through use of low, high, and high + on the basic menu.)
Life In Rewind, I believe what you're saying is that you're using the DR70D to power your mics. In your case, yes the only valid setting on the input menu is MIC+Phantom. In your case, Line or Mic won't do you any good since your mics won't function. Since they won't function in those settings, there's no gain difference between Line or Mic since you get nothing from those two settings anyway.
In the YARN example - I ran both - phantom condensers and battery powered stereo mic (on MIC). But I can't see the benefit of going LINE when my level is already too low in MIC. Going LINE IN sounds like my gain would have been even lower.
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There are reports about massive noise when trying to record from the DR-70D's 3.5mm OUT, making recording impossible:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?329630-Tascam-DR-70D-what-do-you-think/page19
"When recording the 1 kHz test-tone from my SD MixPre-D with the DR-70 the internal recorder shows a noise-floor of -80 dB RMS, but when I record the signal from the DR-70's 3.5mm OUT I'm seeing a noise-floor of -55 dB RMS which is too noisy to use for proper audio. ( it's fine for a sync track )
Who knows if Tascam can fix this with a firmware update, but for now I would forget about trying to use the 3.5mm OUT from the DR-70."
I wonder if this is true of all units or only something that's happening to a few units? Those who own the DR-70D, can you run some tests?
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does anyone know/or has anyone tested the voltage delivered via the DR70s' PIP (plug-in power) via the 1/8 input?
apologies if this has already been covered, but i haven't seen it anywhere...and i don't have a multi-meter. thanks
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There are reports about massive noise when trying to record from the DR-70D's 3.5mm OUT, making recording impossible:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?329630-Tascam-DR-70D-what-do-you-think/page19
"When recording the 1 kHz test-tone from my SD MixPre-D with the DR-70 the internal recorder shows a noise-floor of -80 dB RMS, but when I record the signal from the DR-70's 3.5mm OUT I'm seeing a noise-floor of -55 dB RMS which is too noisy to use for proper audio. ( it's fine for a sync track )
Who knows if Tascam can fix this with a firmware update, but for now I would forget about trying to use the 3.5mm OUT from the DR-70."
I wonder if this is true of all units or only something that's happening to a few units? Those who own the DR-70D, can you run some tests?
The one concert I've recorded with the 70D I used the line out to the M10 as a backup. Just listened to the M10 track and it sounds great in all of the quiet sections, showing the same noisefloor as the tracks recorded on the 70D. The HVAC noise was sitting around -55dB though. I'll try a test tonight with my FP24 > 70D > M10.
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OK, I just did some testing. I'm uploading a dropbox link of all of the test files since I really don't know how to analyze background noise, so hopefully those of you with the knowledge and tools can do this properly. I loaded all 4 files in RX4 which has the best spectrogram view of any of my software and zoomed far in to show the first 0.090 seconds of each file. The spectrograms clearly show more background noise on the M10 files, but that's to be expected since there's another device before it in the chain. Is it 25dB worse as is claimed in the dvxuser post? Hopefully someone here will be able to tell for sure.
The visual difference you will notice in the beginning of the screenshots is probably due to the fact that I was manually trying to start both recorders at the same time, but in both tests it looks like the 70D went first.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zx3g53ofi9fzaz8/AACyfwf9i9UsXHEVrNEiIeSGa?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zx3g53ofi9fzaz8/AACyfwf9i9UsXHEVrNEiIeSGa?dl=0)
Here's a description of what I did:
FP24 Tape Out (1/8") > 70D EXT 1/2 IN (1/8") > 70D Line Out (1/8") > M10 Line In
FP24 sending 1kHz tone for both tests.
TEST 1:
01_70D_150427_0010S12.wav
01_M10_150427_10.wav
70D and M10 levels set so both read -21dB while being sent the tone from the FP24. The 70D could not be set to -20, it was either -19 or -21 after many attempts.
TEST 2:
02_70D_150427_0012S12.wav
02_M10_150427_11.wav
70D Slate Tone set to -18dB in SLATE menu, and that tone sent to the M10. M10 level set to -18dB to match.
Sending 1kHz from FP24 > 70D > M10 then read -28dB on M10 (still -21dB on 70D whose input levels were not touched from previous test).
After performing this test, connected FP24 directly to M10 with input level left the same from TEST 2. M10 showed -25dB.
EDIT: It just occurred to me that it might also be useful to repeat the same steps with the FP24's tone turned off while recording, so the 70D and M10 are only recording silence / background noise. I just packed everything away for the night though and won't have time to do any more testing until Thursday.
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Not sure if this has already been tried...
I inserted an SD card with some 4-track DR70D recordings (@24/96) into a DR680.
The DR680 asked me to make a system file, which I did, but then it would not see the DR70D files. When I looked in "BROWSE", it only showed an empty folder.
So unless I've done something wrong, a DR680 will not play DR70D tracks.
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Did any one figure out the difference between line 1 +2 stereo and 1+2 external power? Those are two choices if you are using a mini plug source.
Thanks
I'm not real sure what you mean, but I think you're asking about the last setting on the Basic menu. I was also initially confused by that, but figured it out.
Under Input 1/2, there are three choices;
- XLR/TRS, this is the choice most of us will use most of the time...that's means your inputs are from XLR 1 and 2 jacks
- EXT_STEREO, this means inputs 1 and 2 will record the signal from the 1/8 ext jack. This is the default because, remember that the DR70D is designed to be used with a digital camera. Use this setting the same as you would 'Line In' jack on the typical handheld recorder.
- EXT_POWER, this is the same as EXT_STEREO only with PIP turned on. Use this setting the same as 'Mic In' jack on the typical handheld recorder.
When you move through the menu to inputs 3/4, the choices are different than they were for inputs 1/2;
- XLR/TRS, again most of us will use this choice...this is to record the mics connected to XLR 3 and 4.
- MIC, this is the default and it records the internal mic onto Channels 3 and 4 instead of the XLRs.
Thanks, what is PIP again? I will use Line in stereo.
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PIP = Plug-In Power
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Not sure if this has already been tried...
I inserted an SD card with some 4-track DR70D recordings (@24/96) into a DR680.
The DR680 asked me to make a system file, which I did, but then it would not see the DR70D files. When I looked in "BROWSE", it only showed an empty folder.
So unless I've done something wrong, a DR680 will not play DR70D tracks.
When you made the system file is that formatting the card? If so that could account for the missing files. I dunno
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Not sure if this has already been tried...
I inserted an SD card with some 4-track DR70D recordings (@24/96) into a DR680.
The DR680 asked me to make a system file, which I did, but then it would not see the DR70D files. When I looked in "BROWSE", it only showed an empty folder.
So unless I've done something wrong, a DR680 will not play DR70D tracks.
When you made the system file is that formatting the card? If so that could account for the missing files. I dunno
Either that or the system file created by the 680 expects a different file / folder structure than the 70D uses. If the tracks are still there then the card obviously wasn't formatted by the 680. Does the card with the 680 system file read in the 70D?
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Not sure if this has already been tried...
I inserted an SD card with some 4-track DR70D recordings (@24/96) into a DR680.
The DR680 asked me to make a system file, which I did, but then it would not see the DR70D files. When I looked in "BROWSE", it only showed an empty folder.
So unless I've done something wrong, a DR680 will not play DR70D tracks.
When you made the system file is that formatting the card? If so that could account for the missing files. I dunno
No, it did not format the card. It just added to it. When I viewed the card in my computer, there were two system files: one for the DR70D and the new one for the DR680. The audio files from my DR70D were still there and intact.
No files were missing. But the DR680 simply did not "see" the DR70D audio files.
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Not sure if this has already been tried...
I inserted an SD card with some 4-track DR70D recordings (@24/96) into a DR680.
The DR680 asked me to make a system file, which I did, but then it would not see the DR70D files. When I looked in "BROWSE", it only showed an empty folder.
So unless I've done something wrong, a DR680 will not play DR70D tracks.
When you made the system file is that formatting the card? If so that could account for the missing files. I dunno
Either that or the system file created by the 680 expects a different file / folder structure than the 70D uses. If the tracks are still there then the card obviously wasn't formatted by the 680. Does the card with the 680 system file read in the 70D?
I erased the DR680 system file before re-inserting the card into the DR70D. When I get a chance, I'll try a DR680 card in the DR70D. My guess is that in the same way that the DR680 ignored the DR70D system file (I think I could have recorded new audio files on the DR680 without disturbing the DR70D area of the card), the DR70D will not see the DR680 stuff.
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Not sure if this has already been tried...
I inserted an SD card with some 4-track DR70D recordings (@24/96) into a DR680.
The DR680 asked me to make a system file, which I did, but then it would not see the DR70D files. When I looked in "BROWSE", it only showed an empty folder.
So unless I've done something wrong, a DR680 will not play DR70D tracks.
When you made the system file is that formatting the card? If so that could account for the missing files. I dunno
Either that or the system file created by the 680 expects a different file / folder structure than the 70D uses. If the tracks are still there then the card obviously wasn't formatted by the 680. Does the card with the 680 system file read in the 70D?
I erased the DR680 system file before re-inserting the card into the DR70D. When I get a chance, I'll try a DR680 card in the DR70D. My guess is that in the same way that the DR680 ignored the DR70D system file (I think I could have recorded new audio files on the DR680 without disturbing the DR70D area of the card), the DR70D will not see the DR680 stuff.
Why not just move the DR-70 files into the DR680 folder...and then try it.
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Not sure if this has already been tried...
I inserted an SD card with some 4-track DR70D recordings (@24/96) into a DR680.
The DR680 asked me to make a system file, which I did, but then it would not see the DR70D files. When I looked in "BROWSE", it only showed an empty folder.
So unless I've done something wrong, a DR680 will not play DR70D tracks.
When you made the system file is that formatting the card? If so that could account for the missing files. I dunno
Either that or the system file created by the 680 expects a different file / folder structure than the 70D uses. If the tracks are still there then the card obviously wasn't formatted by the 680. Does the card with the 680 system file read in the 70D?
I erased the DR680 system file before re-inserting the card into the DR70D. When I get a chance, I'll try a DR680 card in the DR70D. My guess is that in the same way that the DR680 ignored the DR70D system file (I think I could have recorded new audio files on the DR680 without disturbing the DR70D area of the card), the DR70D will not see the DR680 stuff.
Why not just move the DR-70 files into the DR680 folder...and then try it.
Sure. But even if it works, it's one more step that would have to be done in a computer. I was hoping for a simple card transfer so you could then control the playback of individual DR70D tracks on the DR680.
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i'm considering using the 70d for a bluegrass concert this weekend. From what I've been reading, I assume--I could run a soundboard feed in EXT IN 1/2 ( only cables I have ) and my Schoeps MK4's with PFAs in 3/4. Considering it's bluegrass I'm assuming I'd run the soundboard and mic gain at HIGH and adjust the pots as needed. Mics at 48V?
In BASIC what is PAN and why is it left 12 or some other setting? Leave this alone?
My other option is to run the soundboard feed into my M10 and run the mics through the Aerco in the EXT IN 1/2. With the Aerco fixed at 20dB, should I stick with HIGH in GAIN setting?
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i'm considering using the 70d for a bluegrass concert this weekend. From what I've been reading, I assume--I could run a soundboard feed in EXT IN 1/2 ( only cables I have ) and my Schoeps MK4's with PFAs in 3/4. Considering it's bluegrass I'm assuming I'd run the soundboard and mic gain at HIGH and adjust the pots as needed. Mics at 48V?
In BASIC what is PAN and why is it left 12 or some other setting? Leave this alone?
My other option is to run the soundboard feed into my M10 and run the mics through the Aerco in the EXT IN 1/2. With the Aerco fixed at 20dB, should I stick with HIGH in GAIN setting?
The recorder has a rudimentary mixer built in...so you want your channels panned hard left/right (leave stock settings). This setting is ignored in MONO mode.
If its your first run - be there for soundcheck.
I'd start with everything in LOW...and adjust accordingly. Easier to add gain than remove overload/distortion.
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i'm considering using the 70d for a bluegrass concert this weekend. From what I've been reading, I assume--I could run a soundboard feed in EXT IN 1/2 ( only cables I have ) and my Schoeps MK4's with PFAs in 3/4. Considering it's bluegrass I'm assuming I'd run the soundboard and mic gain at HIGH and adjust the pots as needed. Mics at 48V?
In BASIC what is PAN and why is it left 12 or some other setting? Leave this alone?
My other option is to run the soundboard feed into my M10 and run the mics through the Aerco in the EXT IN 1/2. With the Aerco fixed at 20dB, should I stick with HIGH in GAIN setting?
In the first paragraph, it sounds to me like everything you've said is correct except I agree with Life In Rewind to start with gain on low.
The Pan setting is confusing. When I first saw it, I thought Left 12 meant left channels 1 and 2. That's not what means. 12 is the number twelve not channels 1& 2. If you play around with that pan setting you'll see that turning the control causes the pan setting to go from a range of 0 to 12 left panned and 0 to 12 right panned.
So for stereo recording, you'll want one channel panned all the way to the left...or Left Twelve and the other channel panned all the way to the right...or Right Twelve. (This is the default, by the way.)
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Cool.
I'll check with the band about soundcheck. I have plenty of time to get there and get setup.
I guess one last thing. Run the MK4's with PFAs MIC+Phantom? 48V? Can we assign EXT IN 1/2 to 3/4 input? Putting the XLRs on either side of the recorder is awkward. Be nice to keep the XLRs on one side and the stereo mini on the other.
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Cool.
I'll check with the band about soundcheck. I have plenty of time to get there and get setup.
I guess one last thing. Run the MK4's with PFAs MIC+Phantom? 48V?
That's right...unless you're using an external preamp in which case your setting would be Line or Mic, but not Mic + phantom. But if you're plugging the PFA's directly into Channels 3 and 4, then you'll need to make sure channels 3 and 4 are set to Mic + phantom.
There's a discussion elsewhere where Jon from Naiant confirms that your MK4 will still work with 24V phantom through the PFA. The mics will have less sensitivity and there will be a higher noise floor, but if you're recording loud music neither of those should make much difference.
But if you have plenty of battery power, I'd just go with 48V phantom but it you think you might not have enough, then one possible option is going 24V phantom.
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Can we assign EXT IN 1/2 to 3/4 input? Putting the XLRs on either side of the recorder is awkward. Be nice to keep the XLRs on one side and the stereo mini on the other.
Nope. The menu structure doesn't allow that. I agree with your comment by the way.
The only options for channels 3 and 4 are XLRs or the internal mics. :banging head:
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Something I just noticed. Channel 3 was MIC only and 4 was MIC+Phantom. The recorder showed levels for both channels, but upon playback only channel 4 had sound. Gotta make sure things are correct before you start recording.
I think I'm good to go. I'll run a test with the ext battery with both a line feed to 1/2 and phantom to 3/4 and see how that goes. I want to know how the recorder sounds with just the Schoeps caps and the PFAs, but I might bag it and run the Aerco. Run the SBD feed into the M10.
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Can we assign EXT IN 1/2 to 3/4 input? Putting the XLRs on either side of the recorder is awkward. Be nice to keep the XLRs on one side and the stereo mini on the other.
Nope. The menu structure doesn't allow that. I agree with your comment by the way.
The only options for channels 3 and 4 are XLRs or the internal mics. :banging head:
It's a $300 deck. There are several things in the menus and/or software functionality that are silly and need to be fixed, but having user-configurable I/O routing is not something I would ever expect on something in this class.
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Well, it is a Tascam.
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Exactly - it's not Sound Devices, Nagra, Aeta, Zaxcom, etc. who you would expect to have that kind of functionality.
That said, with the amount of things in the 70D that are software controlled, they probably could do assignable channel routing with a firmware update if they really wanted to. It would actually be a really great marketing / sales point for them to be able to say "assign any input to any output" like the "pro" names mentioned above do. They would be the only one in the price class doing that as far as I know.
One reason I could think of them not wanting to do this is that they might think the customer base who would buy the 70D would not understand how to use a routing matrix, whereas someone dropping the cash on a pro-level unit would most likely have experience with that.
Also on this particular unit, it's simpler to have that external line in mini jack labeled "EXT IN 1/2" and then you know that those are the only channels it could possibly be recording to.
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It was mentioned that the 4580s and the NE5532s OpAmps are replaced in this mod. Replaced with what OpAmp(s)?
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Whoever mentioned the sd card swap, what size card is it?
Does the 680 accept that size card?
I ask because with my 60d I put a card in that was to large to see what it did and it seemed fine until I tried to actually record.
So what I am getting at is maybe the 680 can't read the card because it's to big.
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Exactly - it's not Sound Devices, Nagra, Aeta, Zaxcom, etc. who you would expect to have that kind of functionality.
That said, with the amount of things in the 70D that are software controlled, they probably could do assignable channel routing with a firmware update if they really wanted to. It would actually be a really great marketing / sales point for them to be able to say "assign any input to any output" like the "pro" names mentioned above do. They would be the only one in the price class doing that as far as I know.
On the one hand, I agree that this is a low priced unit so you can't expect a nagra. On the other, I don't understand the pushback against proposed software improvements on our recorder.
The fact is that the DR70D already has a very basic mixer. Since it has a mixer, then you should be able to assign channels. Especially, since a) it's already done to some degree in the current mixing capability, and b) that's one of the things that the most basic of mixers does.
Anyway, the DR70D already has channel assignable mixing selectability between pairs (1<>2 and 3<>4). There's also user selecable channel assignment, but the choices are pre-sets. With these basic controls already available, it seems like there should be should be no reason to either a) add additional pre-sets or b) add user assignability.
To imply this is only the domain of high priced recorders is letting Tascam off the hook with a software update. I think it's clear that mixing capability isn't the domain of high priced units, otherwise Tascam wouldn't have included a mixer in the DR70D.
If possible, I want channel selectibility in a firmware update if Tascam will give it to us, but as long as people keep saying that you can only get it in high priced decks, then yeah it'll never happen on the dR70D for sure!
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In my experience, cards don't interchange between different Tascam models (eg. 2d to 60d or 70d or 680). If the card isn't formatted in a particular deck, I don't expect it to be able to use it.
IMO, the Tascam menus tend toward being obtuse. I never liked the menu wheel on the 2d or 680.
Cheesecadet posted details of the opamp change out and pictures --either about the end of the first thread or start of the second one.
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Well, I found what I asked about here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172109.0. The NE5532 & NJM4580 are replaced by LME49720, 5 OpAmps altogether. Also 6 capacitors, Wima MKP-2 .01uf/250v 5% poly caps, are added.
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As many times as the "what preamps are in the 70d" has been asked, this information and the information on the preamp mod ought to be in the FAQ/overview.
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As many times as the "what preamps are in the 70d" has been asked, this information and the information on the preamp mod ought to be in the FAQ/overview.
For sure although they are mentioned in the first OP here
Here's Part 1 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=170230.0)
Here's Part 2 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172109.0)
Tom Duffy from TASCAM (http://taperssection.com/index.php?action=profile;u=53688), "site rep"
And thanks to voltronic, for putting together a FAQ page with recommended settings (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172795.0).
http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/overview/
-Compact, professional-grade audio recorder designed to be used in combination with a DSLR camera
-Uses an SD/SDHC/SDXC card as recording medium (up to 128 GB)
-High-quality recording inputs through Tascam original High Definition Discrete Architecture (HDDA) microphone preamps
-NE5532 operational amplifiers for even higher audio performance (also used on DA-3000)
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Oops on me about the factory preamps being mentioned, but I don't see a link to the modification?
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Exactly - it's not Sound Devices, Nagra, Aeta, Zaxcom, etc. who you would expect to have that kind of functionality.
That said, with the amount of things in the 70D that are software controlled, they probably could do assignable channel routing with a firmware update if they really wanted to. It would actually be a really great marketing / sales point for them to be able to say "assign any input to any output" like the "pro" names mentioned above do. They would be the only one in the price class doing that as far as I know.
On the one hand, I agree that this is a low priced unit so you can't expect a nagra. On the other, I don't understand the pushback against proposed software improvements on our recorder.
The fact is that the DR70D already has a very basic mixer. Since it has a mixer, then you should be able to assign channels. Especially, since a) it's already done to some degree in the current mixing capability, and b) that's one of the things that the most basic of mixers does.
Anyway, the DR70D already has channel assignable mixing selectability between pairs (1<>2 and 3<>4). There's also user selecable channel assignment, but the choices are pre-sets. With these basic controls already available, it seems like there should be should be no reason to either a) add additional pre-sets or b) add user assignability.
To imply this is only the domain of high priced recorders is letting Tascam off the hook with a software update. I think it's clear that mixing capability isn't the domain of high priced units, otherwise Tascam wouldn't have included a mixer in the DR70D.
If possible, I want channel selectibility in a firmware update if Tascam will give it to us, but as long as people keep saying that you can only get it in high priced decks, then yeah it'll never happen on the dR70D for sure!
TD, I think we're in argumentative agreement here. Maybe I wasn't being clear. Clearly the 70D hardware has the capability to make these things happen, and you're right that they have a partially functional routing mixer already programmed in there. But the point I was trying to make is if they have the incentive to pay a programmer to make it happen, and Tascam may have thought their target market isn't necessarily going to call for these things, and most people are going to get less confused if you just don't give them too many choices. It's kind of like Apple hardware. A lot of people I know love them for their ease of use, but as someone who has always built custom computers I hate that I can't change anything and that they constantly eliminate functionality / ports. (Not trying to start a Mac vs. PC flame war - just making a personal analogy. Apple zealots, please do not engage.)
And while mixing capability isn't exclusively the domain of high priced units, I'm pretty sure that fully configurable mixing is. And if you read what I said, I think that could be really a big sales point if they made that happen.
Far from letting them off the hook, I think this is why we need to make Tascam know that we are now a significant part of their market. I PM'd our Tom Duffy, the Tascam rep on the board at least 2 or 3 times about the list of issues and firmware requests, but have yet to hear back.
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Whoever mentioned the sd card swap, what size card is it?
Does the 680 accept that size card?
I ask because with my 60d I put a card in that was to large to see what it did and it seemed fine until I tried to actually record.
So what I am getting at is maybe the 680 can't read the card because it's to big.
It was me, and it was a Lexar 32GB card, exactly the same size and brand used in the DR680 that was tested.
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TD, I think we're in argumentative agreement here.
:coolguy:
The reality is that I'd be surprised if they do much of anything based on the response from when I reached out with suggestions on the DR100MKii, but as I think you've mentioned they seem the have different teams for different products, so maybe the DR70D team will be responsive to some customer feedback. Let's hope so because Tascam has some work to do in customer relations.
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Oops on me about the factory preamps being mentioned, but I don't see a link to the modification?
I dont think anyone has a Busman Modded unit yet - at least no one reporting here.
And - I don't think Busman has reported his mod specs...
Cheesecadet had his done locally - and to his (and Jim Williams) specs - JW isnt doing the mod business-wise...
So - its a bit of a mystery...dont think there is a link...
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I have had this bookmarked for a long time, I should probably link to it in the FAQ:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/960891-new-very-compact-4ch-recorder-tascam-2.html#post10842631 (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/960891-new-very-compact-4ch-recorder-tascam-2.html#post10842631)
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I dont think anyone has a Busman Modded unit yet - at least no one reporting here.
I've got one on the way to me, so I'd be happy to comment once it arrives. I'd also be happy to run some comparisons, if someone else wants to send (or bring over to) me a stock unit.
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I have had this bookmarked for a long time, I should probably link to it in the FAQ:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/960891-new-very-compact-4ch-recorder-tascam-2.html#post10842631 (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/960891-new-very-compact-4ch-recorder-tascam-2.html#post10842631)
You might quote a few posts there - but there's a lot of out of date speculation there and stuff about a 70Dmkii - that seems wrong...lets not perpetuate that.
The JW posts seem the to be the most relevant.
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I have had this bookmarked for a long time, I should probably link to it in the FAQ:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/960891-new-very-compact-4ch-recorder-tascam-2.html#post10842631 (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/960891-new-very-compact-4ch-recorder-tascam-2.html#post10842631)
You might quote a few posts there - but there's a lot of out of date speculation there and stuff about a 70Dmkii - that seems wrong...lets not perpetuate that.
The JW posts seem the to be the most relevant.
Yes, well actually JW was the one who was perpetuating the mkII rumors. You'll see I asked him directly about it since it seems so strange.
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It should be limited to the now established details of the mod that Cheesecadet posted. I think there was a specific post linking to the parts needed and photos of the insides of the modded unit.
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I have had this bookmarked for a long time, I should probably link to it in the FAQ:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/960891-new-very-compact-4ch-recorder-tascam-2.html#post10842631 (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/960891-new-very-compact-4ch-recorder-tascam-2.html#post10842631)
You might quote a few posts there - but there's a lot of out of date speculation there and stuff about a 70Dmkii - that seems wrong...lets not perpetuate that.
The JW posts seem the to be the most relevant.
Yes, well actually JW was the one who was perpetuating the mkII rumors. You'll see I asked him directly about it since it seems so strange.
I think that was a confusion of his with the DR680MKii.
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Oops on me about the factory preamps being mentioned, but I don't see a link to the modification?
I dont think anyone has a Busman Modded unit yet - at least no one reporting here.
And - I don't think Busman has reported his mod specs...
Cheesecadet had his done locally - and to his (and Jim Williams) specs - JW isnt doing the mod business-wise...
So - its a bit of a mystery...dont think there is a link...
Here's a DR70 Busmod: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172797.0
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http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172109.msg2131985#msg2131985
Photos and parts list for the JW mod posted by Cheesecadet in post 13 of the second thread.
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There is no Tascam DR-70D MKII.
JWmod consists of 5 opamps and 8 poly caps.
Jim Williams is not performing any mods at this time. After many lengthy emails and pictures sent, I have his detailed instruction on how to perform his mod. I can forward this info in its entirety to those who may want it, although, I did post it in the threads so that would probably be easier for you to find and you wouldn't have to wait on me to get back to you.
I asked Busman about his components used in his mod to compare to the JWmod and he does not want to give out this info. I can appreciate this as it is his business.
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There is no Tascam DR-70D MKII.
JWmod consists of 5 opamps and 8 poly caps.
Jim Williams is not performing any mods at this time. After many lengthy emails and pictures sent, I have his detailed instruction on how to perform his mod. I can forward this info in its entirety to those who may want it, although, I did post it in the threads so that would probably be easier for you to find and you wouldn't have to wait on me to get back to you.
I asked Busman about his components used in his mod to compare to the JWmod and he does not want to give out this info. I can appreciate this as it is his business.
could be the same based on the info jw supplied ???
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There is no Tascam DR-70D MKII.
JWmod consists of 5 opamps and 8 poly caps.
Jim Williams is not performing any mods at this time. After many lengthy emails and pictures sent, I have his detailed instruction on how to perform his mod. I can forward this info in its entirety to those who may want it, although, I did post it in the threads so that would probably be easier for you to find and you wouldn't have to wait on me to get back to you.
I asked Busman about his components used in his mod to compare to the JWmod and he does not want to give out this info. I can appreciate this as it is his business.
could be the same based on the info jw supplied ???
What do you mean? What could be the same?
If you are referring to an MKII version of the DR-70D, I was told there was not one even being considered at this time by Tascam directly.
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There is no Tascam DR-70D MKII.
JWmod consists of 5 opamps and 8 poly caps.
Jim Williams is not performing any mods at this time. After many lengthy emails and pictures sent, I have his detailed instruction on how to perform his mod. I can forward this info in its entirety to those who may want it, although, I did post it in the threads so that would probably be easier for you to find and you wouldn't have to wait on me to get back to you.
I asked Busman about his components used in his mod to compare to the JWmod and he does not want to give out this info. I can appreciate this as it is his business.
could be the same based on the info jw supplied ???
What do you mean? What could be the same?
If you are referring to an MKII version of the DR-70D, I was told there was not one even being considered at this time by Tascam directly.
I'm saying maybe he got the same info as you from jw and the mod is the same
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There is no Tascam DR-70D MKII.
JWmod consists of 5 opamps and 8 poly caps.
Jim Williams is not performing any mods at this time. After many lengthy emails and pictures sent, I have his detailed instruction on how to perform his mod. I can forward this info in its entirety to those who may want it, although, I did post it in the threads so that would probably be easier for you to find and you wouldn't have to wait on me to get back to you.
I asked Busman about his components used in his mod to compare to the JWmod and he does not want to give out this info. I can appreciate this as it is his business.
could be the same based on the info jw supplied ???
What do you mean? What could be the same?
If you are referring to an MKII version of the DR-70D, I was told there was not one even being considered at this time by Tascam directly.
I'm saying maybe he got the same info as you from jw and the mod is the same
Busman only told me that he uses different opamps than JW and he believes his own mod would sound better. To each their own I guess. I'm sure Busman probably based his mod on JW's regardless though...I could be wrong, who the hell knows :facepalm:
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he believes his own mod would sound better.
But is it more accurate? "Sounding better" is a totally subjective thing - for one person it might, for instance, involve exaggerated (but not correct) bass response, which another person might dislike. On the other hand, it might involve a measurable improvement in signal to noise ratio.
If I were ever to pay out money for any mod to any device, I'd want to know exactly what I was getting in terms of outcome, and how it could or has been measured. Often, there just seems to be so much vagueness when these mods are discussed. And of course there's the whole "law of diminishing returns" thing - I don't doubt you can make improvements to any audio device, but are the improvements sufficiently audible to justify the effort and expense, and could the cost be better put towards (for instance) a better mic instead?
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Exactly. It is very subjective. I went with JWmod because I have always been impressed with his mods and it gives a better top end detail and lower noise floor. Those are the exact two things I was looking for in a mod and JWs reputation in the biz speaks for itself. I use various pres to change "flavor" when needed. I don't believe Busman has specified what his mod achieves, has he?
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One way to find out what the Busman mod consists of is to unscrew the case of one of his units and look inside.
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True. He said he used an Analog Devices opamp but wouldn't specify which one. Not sure if he is using poly caps or if it is just an opamp swap. Maybe we can get an owner of a busman modded unit to take a quick peak inside and let us know?
One would be able to determine the opamps used pretty easily by just unscrewing the outer case. Determining if poly caps of some sort are used is a bit more involved as it would require complete disassembly of the unit.
Regardless of whatever opamps are being used in his mod there is more that goes into deterring if something is "better" or not besides a basic opamp. Power consumption, signal to noise ratio, detail, noise floor, etc, etc, etc.
I would be curious to know exactly which opamp he is using though.
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he believes his own mod would sound better.
But is it more accurate? "Sounding better" is a totally subjective thing - for one person it might, for instance, involve exaggerated (but not correct) bass response, which another person might dislike. On the other hand, it might involve a measurable improvement in signal to noise ratio.
If I were ever to pay out money for any mod to any device, I'd want to know exactly what I was getting in terms of outcome, and how it could or has been measured. Often, there just seems to be so much vagueness when these mods are discussed. And of course there's the whole "law of diminishing returns" thing - I don't doubt you can make improvements to any audio device, but are the improvements sufficiently audible to justify the effort and expense, and could the cost be better put towards (for instance) a better mic instead?
These are both excellent points. I would feel much better about getting a unit modded if I could see measurements before / after. It could confirm / disprove what you "think" you're hearing after listening to your modified unit.
Of course, it would be REALLY nice if Tascam published real measurements for this unit in the first place, or a reviewer took the time to measure it properly. I've read quite a few reviews, but have not seen one that does this.
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... I would feel much better about getting a unit modded if I could see measurements before / after. It could confirm / disprove what you "think" you're hearing after listening to your modified unit.
…
It looks like the above is written out of the assumption that conventional measurements (frequency response, THD and SNR) are giving full and accurate picture about how any audio gear sounds.
Alas, this isn't the case. This is in my experience of (now retired) sound engineer and electronics engineer (and an ardent audiophile).
Many of us know that the proper way to choose a microphone for a certain task is by the way it sounds (subjectively), not by the way it measures. There are very accurate microphones which are used for measurements, however, generally speaking, those measurement microphones aren't the best suited ones for recording.
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... I would feel much better about getting a unit modded if I could see measurements before / after. It could confirm / disprove what you "think" you're hearing after listening to your modified unit.
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It looks like the above is written out of the assumption that conventional measurements (frequency response, THD and SNR) are giving full and accurate picture about how any audio gear sounds.
Alas, this isn't the case. This is in my experience of (now retired) sound engineer and electronics engineer (and an ardent audiophile).
Many of us know that the proper way to choose a microphone for a certain task is by the way it sounds (subjectively), not by the way it measures. There are very accurate microphones which are used for measurements, however, generally speaking, those measurement microphones aren't the best suited ones for recording.
I actually wasn't making that assumption. Measurements don't tell the whole story necessarily, but they would take some of the mystery of what has been done to these modified vs. stock units.
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Personally I'm more interested in the way audio gear sounds than in the way it measures (as long as it measures acceptably). Though some may think that I only think what I hear, from experience I do know that I hear what I hear, thus I trust my ears.
However since the debate between 'objectivists' and 'subjectivists' is never ending, I'd rather not continue the present discussion.
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Personally I'm more interested in the way audio gear sounds than in the way it measures (as long as it measures acceptably). Though some may think that I only think what I hear, from experience I do know that I hear what I hear, thus I trust my ears.
However since the debate between 'objectivists' and 'subjectivists' is never ending, I'd rather not continue the present discussion.
That debate is misplaced here - the variables are more controlled. Its lot like we're comparing different brands or products.
I dont see it as "sounds better" contest - I like "here's whats different"
Surely the chip specs are known/knowable.
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Personally I'm more interested in the way audio gear sounds than in the way it measures (as long as it measures acceptably). Though some may think that I only think what I hear, from experience I do know that I hear what I hear, thus I trust my ears.
However since the debate between 'objectivists' and 'subjectivists' is never ending, I'd rather not continue the present discussion.
That debate is misplaced here - the variables are more controlled. Its lot like we're comparing different brands or products.
I dont see it as "sounds better" contest - I like "here's whats different"
Surely the chip specs are known/knowable.
Exactly where I'm coming from. And people performing such mods could at minimum publish measurements of units before and after modification even if they didn't disclose the exact parts used or how they were implemented.
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IMO.. a mod is purely for better sound... what a person percieves as better sound is up to each listener.
It doesn't matter what parts are used.. it just matters at the ending result of listening.
That's why our friendly "modders" create different "flavors". So the user/listener can decide which way they'd like to go with their sound.
To me, modding is a sort of magic.......... take a stock unit and make it sound more musical to satisfy certain tastes of sound.
I don't think any modders should be required to publish what parts they are using/swapping or what they are doing... only describe what the resulting sound ends up to be.
As a 70D owner, it's blowing me away at how much chatter this thing is creating.
Seems to be a nice little box... but I haven't used it enough yet for full judgement.
For a 300 dollar unit with a dropping price, I can't imagine that it will get much support/updates.. but who knows.... the possibility is there!
There are some details that I would like chaged/added if possible.
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I've known Chris for ages and attended many shows with him. We talk about him trying to mod my UA-25 years ago and he offered to do it for my mics. I looked at his website and I would think the mod would be similar to this one.
Tascam DR-680
$300.00 for 6 channels
This modification provides much better detail and natural sound than the stock unit. All of the njm4580 op amps are changed out for high speed, extremly low noise op amps. The input capacitors are changed out for better values that allow for great bass response with an open sound and smooth high end that has excellent detail. This modification lowers the noise floor in the high gain setting by over -8db. The modifications will work very well in a huge variety of applications including nature recording, film, and music. I offer new units with all 6 channels modified for $900..
These come with a 2 year warranty on my modifications.
6 channels = $300
4 channels = $225
2 channels = $175
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Wonder why Tascam didn't include higher end preamps and capacitors in the factory unit. Buying in the quantities they buy and having these installed at the factory wouldn't have added much to the production cost.
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Wonder why Tascam didn't include higher end preamps and capacitors in the factory unit. Buying in the quantities they buy and having these installed at the factory wouldn't have added much to the production cost.
I believe it's been said here at some point that the opamps are the same as in the DR-680, so Tascam would already consider them pretty high quality.
As to your second point, maybe in a couple years if/when they release a MKII...
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DR-680 has the NJM4580s throughout.
DR-70D has the better NE5532s, with a couple 4580s as well.
DR-70D stock has better opamps than the stock 680.
I would imagine that Tascam is trying to increase their profit margin by whatever means necessary within such an economical unit. When you are dealing with the quantity that they produce, from a financial standpoint, a .30 opamp vs. a $3 one would save quite a bit of money in the long run. If people are happy with the quality for the most part with the lower quality opamp why would they chance it?
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What I was trying to show is that Oade, Busman and others will do pretty much the same mods. They will describe similar results because that is what tapers are looking for. Reverse engineering to improve on the concept is fairly easy. Having the skills to do it is another story.
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I'm not sure why they would keep the components to themselves since not just anyone can install them. If I pay for a mod, I'd like to know what I'm getting besides a generic description of improved sound quality.
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It's called secret sauce - the Oade's always covered their circuits in glue - same with Aereco, and I would bet the nboxes
Once you pull back the curtain much of it will be the same and/or easily copied
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^my aerco mp-2 was not covered in "glue"... but nbox+ was.
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It's called secret sauce - the Oade's always covered their circuits in glue - same with Aereco, and I would bet the nboxes
Once you pull back the curtain much of it will be the same and/or easily copied
For sure. Everyone (literally) in the the business world tries to differentiate their product from all of the rest and even when there is no difference, they'll differentiate with intangibles like better service. You'd be an idiot if you gave away specialty knowledge for free if that's what you do for a living.
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Wonder why Tascam didn't include higher end preamps and capacitors in the factory unit. Buying in the quantities they buy and having these installed at the factory wouldn't have added much to the production cost.
For one thing, most manufacturers aren't dealing with, or aren't concerned with, subjective sound quality. This is because only a small minority of their customers is interested in subjective sound quality. (Most consumers of portable recorders are interested in measurement more than in subjective sound quality).
Second, for a manufacturer to stay in business there must be some minimum ratio between production costs and MSRP. Let's assume here that this minimum ratio is 5 (often this is the actual ratio). That means that any additional $1 in production will be reflected as additional $5 in MSRP.
Now, considering the cost of only the OpAmp chips (we don't know what capacitors are replaced and their cost), the NJM4580 costs $0.225 for 2,000 pieces, the NE5532 costs $0.372 for 2,500 pieces and the LME49720 $1.23 for 2,500 pieces.
In the DR-70D there are 2 NJM4580 and 3 NE5532, which cost $1.566 for all 5 OpAmps. 5 x LME49720 cost $6.15. The difference is $4.584 in production costs, which need to be reflected as additional $22.92 at least in MSRP, or additional 7.66% of the present $300 MSRP. Replacing also capacitors will come up even higher, though we don't know by how much.
As long as there is no widespread demand from consumers, most manufacturers wouldn't increase to product's cost by 7.66% without a very good commercial reason.
For a DIY mod'er, LME49720 costs $3.16 (in small quantities), which is $15.8 for the 5 OpAmps. (A charge of $100 or $200 for such a mod by a pro mod'er looks to me reasonable, because of the time and the work involved, on top of the skill, expertize and know-how).
It looks like the majority of the people purchasing Tascam portable recorders are satisfied with the products as they are; only very small percentage of consumers are interested in subjective sound quality and hence are willing to pay extra for the mods. The Tascam DR-70D is being marketed as "Linear PCM recorder for DSLR" - a market of very little demand for subjective high sound quality. Those pros who are interested in subjective high sound quality would probably turn to products of Sound Devices, Nagra etc.
It looks like we (amateurs, or not full-fledged pros) are lucky to have products like the Tascam portable recorders, or mixers/recorders, at a very reasonable price and with adequate subjective sound quality of stock products.
As for Tascam coming with DR-60D MKII, assuming they did there what they did with the DR-70D, that is, replacing 3 of the NJM4580 OpAmps with NE5532 ones, here there is additional $0.441 in production cost, or additional $2.205 in MSRP, or an addition of 2.2%, which is really very little. When the sales of certain model start to decline, there is very good commercial reason to add very little to the production costs and come up with improved MKII.
(The above is derived from my experience working for electronics production company).
(Please excuse my English, it isn't my first language).
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It's called secret sauce - the Oade's always covered their circuits in glue - same with Aereco, and I would bet the nboxes
Once you pull back the curtain much of it will be the same and/or easily copied
For sure. Everyone (literally) in the the business world tries to differentiate their product from all of the rest and even when there is no difference, they'll differentiate with intangibles like better service. You'd be an idiot if you gave away specialty knowledge for free if that's what you do for a living.
Agreed. I don't think JW really gave a crap about such an inexpensive unit. He is not currently doing the mods anyway as he has too much going on with his core business which, I assume, is a lot more lucrative.
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(The above is derived from my experience working for electronics production company).
(Please excuse my English, it isn't my first language).
Very informative and well written post, actually! :) Thanks!
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I wouldn't ride that horse too far because there's a substantial amount of knowledge being given away on GS every day by people in business. The JW mod is no secret because he posted it. It's also no secret that the opamps and capacitors are the common subjects of the mod. Since it is already known the opamps and the capacitors are the subjects of the mod, it's not big step to disclose which ones are being used or at least give some more specific indication of what the mod consists of.
So far as adding $22.92 to the production cost of the DR70d, we have seen a price swing of $299 to $179 since it was released about October of 2014. Tascam apparently has some room here to have used higher grade components, and then they would have had an even better product.
But as priced now, it's $300 MSRP plus $150 for the mod. That's $450 instead of the $325 or $350 it could have been direct from the factory before discounts--possibly $205 to $225.
Joshua-G's writing is excellent, BTW.
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Re: playing DR70D files in the DR680:
With its latest firmware Version 1.30, the DR680 can now play DR70D files as multi-track files.
But you have to rename the DR70D files on your computer (as explained in the DR680 Manual Addendum that comes with the Firmware).
Then you must do a REBUILD on the Project folder when you insert the card in the 680.
It's not quick, but it does allow control of playback of DR70D 4-track recordings without using a DAW.
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It's good that you don't see me blush…
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FWIW - To correct an earlier allusion I mentioned that the D70 is based off the hs-p82 - after reviewing the p82 schematics, the p82 has discrete transistor based Pre-Amp coupled to AD8599 opamp
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^my aerco mp-2 was not covered in "glue"... but nbox+ was.
I was about to respond with the same.
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Agreed. I don't think JW really gave a crap about such an inexpensive unit. He is not currently doing the mods anyway as he has too much going on with his core business which, I assume, is a lot more lucrative.
I'd figure that Busman will add a line to his website about his DR-70D mod, and then we'll find out slightly more about the details.
Hey Picklemic, are you handy with a small screwdriver?? >:D
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My Bussman modded unit arrived today. I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but I can probably take some pictures of the insides after the kids go to bed.
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Please do take pics of opampsnif possible. Pickle mic is recuperating from Jazzfest
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Please do take pics of opamps if possible. Pickle mic is recuperating from Jazzfest
YEAH, YOU RIGHT!
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Pictures????
Is it possible to record m/s using two inputs on the 70d and use the other two inputs for spot mics at the same time?
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Pictures????
Is it possible to record m/s using two inputs on the 70d and use the other two inputs for spot mics at the same time?
Yes. Go to the MIC menu option, and then you have options for MS MODE 1/2 and MS MODE 3/4. For each of those stereo pairs, you can choose from OFF, REC, or MONI.
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Updated the FAQ today with an "Other Technical Info" section which lists the specific chips used, as far as I was able to find. I'm not sure if it's worth really adding a section on "Mods" until Jim Williams or Busman is making them more widely available. There's also now a link to the FAQ in my signature because I just found out I could do that... ;D
Thanks to Cheesecadet: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172109.msg2133142#msg2133142 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172109.msg2133142#msg2133142)
And to Jim Williams: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/960891-new-very-compact-4ch-recorder-tascam-2.html#post10842631 (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/960891-new-very-compact-4ch-recorder-tascam-2.html#post10842631)
Also, I mistakenly stated earlier in this thread that I thought I heard about the 70D using the same opamps as the DR-680. I now found where I was getting that from, and my memory was off - it's supposedly the HS-P82 that uses the NE552 opamps.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=171565.msg2125629#msg2125629 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=171565.msg2125629#msg2125629)
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FWIW - To correct an earlier allusion I mentioned that the D70 is based off the hs-p82 - after reviewing the p82 schematics, the p82 has discrete transistor based Pre-Amp coupled to AD8599 opamp
The hs-p82 does not use the ne552 op amps - instead it uses a discrete transistor network in front of AD8599 op-amps
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FWIW - To correct an earlier allusion I mentioned that the D70 is based off the hs-p82 - after reviewing the p82 schematics, the p82 has discrete transistor based Pre-Amp coupled to AD8599 opamp
The hs-p82 does not use the ne552 op amps - instead it uses a discrete transistor network in front of AD8599 op-amps
Whoops - I missed that comment earlier. Thanks for clarifying that. Clearly, Tascam must be using "HDDA" as marketing, and it doesn't describe any particular circuit or chip.
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FWIW - To correct an earlier allusion I mentioned that the D70 is based off the hs-p82 - after reviewing the p82 schematics, the p82 has discrete transistor based Pre-Amp coupled to AD8599 opamp
The hs-p82 does not use the ne552 op amps - instead it uses a discrete transistor network in front of AD8599 op-amps
Whoops - I missed that comment earlier. Thanks for clarifying that. Clearly, Tascam must be using "HDDA" as marketing, and it doesn't describe any particular circuit or chip.
I swear that a couple months ago I found a place on the Tascam website that said something (one of the USB audio interfaces I think) used the ne552 op amps and stated that it had this in common with the HS-P82. By deduction I concluded that the DR-70d which has the ne552 op amps has this in common with the HS-P82. I can no longer find this text so I'm wondering if they made some changes or I just misunderstood.
The potential for four HS-P82 quality channels was quite enticing but also a bit surprising and now it makes more sense I guess.
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It's possible that both versions are correct. That is, in few of their products, for each mike channel there is a discrete transistors front-end, followed by an OpAmp chip. So, "HDDA" is what they call the discrete transistors front-end - which doesn't exclude a following OpAmp chip - which replacing by another one improves the subjective SQ (Sound Quality).
If this is the case, "HDDA" is both a marketing phrase and valid technical consideration, which (potentially) improves both technical specs and SQ.
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So will this thing phantom power four mics at the same time?
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So will this thing phantom power four mics at the same time?
yes
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Thanks!
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http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=579901
Tedeschi Trucks Band
May 18, 2015
SummerStage, Central Park; New York, NY
Schoeps mk41v (DIN)> Vark KCY> Naiant PFA> Bussman Modified Tascam DR-70D @ 24bit 96 kHz> Macbook> Sound Studio (Tracks & Fades)> xACT (Flac)
Recorded and Transferred by Noah Bickart <noahbickart@gmail.com>
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What is your impression of the results of the mod compared to the stock unit?
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What is your impression of the results of the mod compared to the stock unit?
I never compared them side by side....
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Did you at least get a pretty Busman sticker?
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So, generally, this deck has exceeded expectations. I've only used twice but it's easy and issue free.
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So, generally, this deck has exceeded expectations. I've only used twice but it's easy and issue free.
It has some significant issues with it that Tascam should address (see link to FAQ in my sig) but I agree that it's generally pretty easy to use given the features it has. I'm also really impressed with the quality of the built-in pres. I posted a sample of a large choir recording I made this week, and at least for a live concert with audience the pres are plenty quiet enough.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172679.msg2144032#msg2144032 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172679.msg2144032#msg2144032)
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Something very interesting I noticed regarding the gain knobs that I haven't seen mentioned before: The knobs don't appear to function as continuous digital encoders as I thought they would. Instead, you turn them until they hit a threshold which activates a programmed level change in the software to the next "step" of gain. It's not a continuous control, even though it feels like one. So, the result of you moving the knobs is similar to analog stepped pots but without the detented tactile feedback.
Evidence to support this:
1. While monitoring the output with headphones, set a gain pot to zero. Very slowly bring it up. You won't hear anything for the beginning of its travel, but then around 7:00 / 8:00 the channel will suddenly come to life, as though you had a console with the fader up but you had just disengaged the mute switch.
2. With an empty room, I've been able to set my levels of all 4 channels pretty equally by eye using the room tone / steady HVAC noise and watching the meters. If you turn the pot past a certain point, the dB meter pops up a couple segments and stays there. Even if the pot position of the other channels isn't exactly the same, I've fount that as long as you're in that range of "wiggle room" then you're getting a matched level.
Can anyone verify this? If I'm right, then this would somewhat lessen the need for ganged gain controls as some of us here have called for. We still definitely need a per-channel numeric level though, and I would also like to know exactly what the gain steps are in the software.
Hoping Tom Duffy from Tascam will be able to weigh in on this - I've had no luck getting a response from him after numerous attempts.
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It's fairly easy to measure the gain steps, inject a steady tone ( 1kHz ) into the input, set the machine to record and slowly increase the gain until you reach 0dB.
Examine the resultant waveform in your DAW and you should see the steps and be able to measure the size.
Here's a test I did on the Zoom H6 and found that the gain is adjusted in 0.6 db steps, and not continuously as I first thought.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70230944/Attenuation%20Steps.jpg
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the gain is adjusted in 0.6 db steps, and not continuously as I first thought.
Wasn't the original idea of a dB that one dB represented the smallest level difference the human ear was thought to be able to detect? In which case, 0.6dB steps would sound smooth. But I may be wrong. It has been know to happen.
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the gain is adjusted in 0.6 db steps, and not continuously as I first thought.
Wasn't the original idea of a dB that one dB represented the smallest level difference the human ear was thought to be able to detect? In which case, 0.6dB steps would sound smooth. But I may be wrong. It has been know to happen.
Oh yes, it sounds very smooth, you can't tell that the gain is adjusting in steps, it was only after doing the test that I found this out.
The gain controls have been very well implemented by Zoom.
The stepped stud faders used by the BBC up until the late 60's, were in 2db steps as it was then thought that the human ear couldn't detect a change of 2db or less.
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Just tested with the FP24 going into the EXT 1/2 input of the 70D. On the screen of the 70D, the dB level starts at -23dB (at LOW) gain and then increases in 2dB steps. Looking at the resulting file on the computer shows that in reality it is increasing in 0.5dB steps starting at -23.5dB.
The bad news: My channels were probably not as matched as I thought they were, because the readout on the 70D is not accurate. The poor monitoring is now my #1 biggest problem that needs to be fixed.
The good news: 0.5dB steps is nice to have.
EDIT: I updated the FAQ page with this as Issue #1, and also sent a PM to Tom Duffy, our TS Tascam rep. As I said before, I haven't ever gotten a response from him so maybe I'll send the issues list to Tascam customer support directly.
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I'm considering getting my 70D modded, but I want to get an idea of at least the self-noise of the stock unit. So, I did a quick test today, the best I could without any actual test equipment. If anyone with a modded unit would be willing to try the same test, I'd be curious to see the results.
All 4 channels recording at 24/48 BWAV, which is my normal recording format. Input set to MIC, but nothing connected so I would be recording silence / noise. Running off internal AAs.
I first recorded 3 sets of files (LOW, HIGH, and HIGH+ ranges) with the gain knobs at max for the worst-case scenario. I ran the resulting files through the Dynamic Range Meter plugin in Foobar to get the Peak and RMS values.
DR Peak RMS Duration Track
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DR7 -78.30 dB -85.82 dB 0:11 ?-01_LOW_MAX_150525_0016S12
DR7 -77.85 dB -85.97 dB 0:11 ?-01_LOW_MAX_150525_0016S34
DR10 -52.69 dB -64.63 dB 0:11 ?-02_HIGH_MAX_150525_0017S12
DR11 -53.17 dB -64.47 dB 0:11 ?-02_HIGH_MAX_150525_0017S34
DR10 -40.91 dB -52.64 dB 0:11 ?-03_HIGH+_MAX_150525_0018S12
DR10 -41.11 dB -52.51 dB 0:11 ?-03_HIGH+_MAX_150525_0018S34
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Next I did the same thing, with the knobs at zero:
DR Peak RMS Duration Track
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DR6 -80.13 dB -86.43 dB 0:11 ?-01_LOW_MIN_150525_0021S12
DR6 -80.25 dB -86.56 dB 0:11 ?-01_LOW_MIN_150525_0021S34
DR6 -80.38 dB -86.43 dB 0:11 ?-02_HIGH_MIN_150525_0020S12
DR6 -80.38 dB -86.56 dB 0:11 ?-02_HIGH_MIN_150525_0020S34
DR9 -74.87 dB -84.26 dB 0:11 ?-03_HIGH+_MIN_150525_0019S12
DR9 -75.58 dB -84.44 dB 0:11 ?-03_HIGH+_MIN_150525_0019S34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I verified these numbers visually watching the meters in iZotope RX, and I took screenshots of the Channel 1/2 files which are below. (Channel 3/4 files essentially looked the same, and you can see from the numbers above they are within 0.5dB of the other two channels.)
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Thanks for all the info within threads 2 & 3; I have been researching a 4 channel upgrade from my Fostex fr-2LE, and mostly looking at an R-44. The DR-70 wasn't really on my radar because it didn't seem like a serious contender (I thought of it as a 'dumbed down' photo-centric recorder). Although from what everyone is saying the recorder is a legit pro-level unit (correct?). Is the DR-70 comparable to the likes of a R-44 (or others)? Please forgive me if these questions have been answered before.
Cheese Cadet - You had yours modded by Jim Williams, but he doesn't offer this anymore? Was that a one-off?
Busman does do a mod to the preamps? What is the cost?
Any other summaries are appreciated.
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Thanks for all the info within threads 2 & 3; I have been researching a 4 channel upgrade from my Fostex fr-2LE, and mostly looking at an R-44. The DR-70 wasn't really on my radar because it didn't seem like a serious contender (I thought of it as a 'dumbed down' photo-centric recorder). Although from what everyone is saying the recorder is a legit pro-level unit (correct?). Is the DR-70 comparable to the likes of a R-44 (or others)? Please forgive me if these questions have been answered before.
Cheese Cadet - You had yours modded by Jim Williams, but he doesn't offer this anymore? Was that a one-off?
Busman does do a mod to the preamps? What is the cost?
Any other summaries are appreciated.
Jim gave me his detailed instructions on the mod and I had a local engineering from do the mod based on this detailed instruction. Jim is not doing any mods currently.
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Thanks for all the info within threads 2 & 3; I have been researching a 4 channel upgrade from my Fostex fr-2LE, and mostly looking at an R-44. The DR-70 wasn't really on my radar because it didn't seem like a serious contender (I thought of it as a 'dumbed down' photo-centric recorder). Although from what everyone is saying the recorder is a legit pro-level unit (correct?). Is the DR-70 comparable to the likes of a R-44 (or others)? Please forgive me if these questions have been answered before.
Cheese Cadet - You had yours modded by Jim Williams, but he doesn't offer this anymore? Was that a one-off?
Busman does do a mod to the preamps? What is the cost?
Any other summaries are appreciated.
Jim gave me his detailed instructions on the mod and I had a local engineering from do the mod based on this detailed instruction. Jim is not doing any mods currently.
So will your guy do this mod for others? It sounds like you're happy with it. What did it cost? PM if you want.
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So what's the consensus on build quality? The features are great and the quirks can be worked around, but this looks like a playskool version of a fr2-LE....is it really that cheap feeling? The price is right, but I don't want to drop even 500 on a modded unit and have it start to fall apart, can it live in a gear bag getting bounced around a bit?
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It doesn't feel or look cheap. I don't think the outer case is metal because a magnet won't stick to it, but the 70d has a solid feel to it. Given it's small size, why bounce it in a gear bag at all when it's small enough to fit in a padded equipment case? mcmelectronics.com has several pelican type plastic cases with foam inserts for under $30 that should fit the 70d and hold a couple of microphones, too.
Whether the unit needs or really benefits from the mod is still a bit of a subjective question. Other than Voltronic's recent post and a post in the first thread comparing the 70d with a SD unit, there doesn't seem to be any other direct measurements of the noise floor of the factory 70d, and so far, there have been no posts of measurements of any modded 70d versus the factory 70d.
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Thanks.
Forgive me if this was already posted, but Chris is offering a new unit with all the freebies, with modded analog input channels and headphone amp for 430 shipped.
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Input set to MIC, but nothing connected so I would be recording silence / noise. Running off internal AA
I think such measurements would be suspect without a 150 ohm plug being used in the mic input socket.
See http://www.rane.com/note145.html - the section headed "EIN. Equivalent Input Noise or Input Referred Noise"
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Input set to MIC, but nothing connected so I would be recording silence / noise. Running off internal AA
I think such measurements would be suspect without a 150 ohm plug being used in the mic input socket.
See http://www.rane.com/note145.html - the section headed "EIN. Equivalent Input Noise or Input Referred Noise"
As I said, I do not have the proper equipment or knowledge to do real measurements. I wish someone with the means would do so - it's surprising to me that of all the published reviews of this unit, not one has a set of measurements.
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Is anyone else feeling like the LOW + MIC gain setting is REALLY LOW...?
Both my Sony ECM999PR and Altec 626As - I can run the knobs all the way up - and still wish for more (both of these behave NAK300-like with regard to output, and are battery powered)
So - I've found myself switching to HIGH - risky though - because at minimum gain position - it turns the signal off. (The biggest flaw I've discovered in recorder - this needs to be fixed!)
With my Audix mics - LOW + MIC/phantom - levels are more what I would expect - but even then - not uncommon to be past 2'oclock.
It would be a cool feature to be able make the bottom gain/sensitivity setting a user preset.
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Input set to MIC, but nothing connected so I would be recording silence / noise. Running off internal AA
I think such measurements would be suspect without a 150 ohm plug being used in the mic input socket.
See http://www.rane.com/note145.html - the section headed "EIN. Equivalent Input Noise or Input Referred Noise"
"to run all the tests...$10,000 of equipment...." in 2003 prices.
Wonder how much of a test one could run with the Behringer cable checker that has a built in tone generator?
And yes, Low doesn't seem to do much for me.
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Is anyone else feeling like the LOW + MIC gain setting is REALLY LOW...?
Yes, with schoeps mk41v> Naiant PFA, I had to run the gain knobs all the way up to get levels to peak between 12 and 6 at TTB last week. Now the PA was relatively low, but nonetheless. i think at louder rock shows indoors low should be fine, but anything acoustic or quiet run it at "high."
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Check Beans recent recording out...it's made with DR70D with the stock unmodded preamps. Sounds outstanding to me.
https://archive.org/details/aqueous2015-05-15.mk4.pfa.70d.flac24
You can comp this recording against two others that were made from the same location. I've linked them below. The others have very similar setups, with the main difference being high end preamps in the chain. Bean ran a pair of MK41 through a VMS02IB into the other two channels of his DR70D. I ran my vintage Schoeps through a PSP3 into my Sony D100. My files were recorded in DSD format and converted to 24/48. The bottom line is that the internal preamps on the DR70D hold up really REALLY well in this comp IMO.
https://archive.org/details/aqueous2015-05-15.mk41.vms02ib.70d.flac24
https://archive.org/details/aqueous2015-05-15.m934b_24bit
Finally, Aqueous was one of the two backup bands that night. The headliner was Tauk, so the same comp can be heard with another bands music.
https://archive.org/details/tauk2015-05-15.mk4.pfa.flac24
https://archive.org/details/tauk2015-05-15.mk41.vms02ib.70d.flac24
https://archive.org/details/tauk2015-05-15.m934b_24bit
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MK4>DR70d sounds really good!! Thanks for the link.
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So what's the consensus on build quality? The features are great and the quirks can be worked around, but this looks like a playskool version of a fr2-LE....is it really that cheap feeling? The price is right, but I don't want to drop even 500 on a modded unit and have it start to fall apart, can it live in a gear bag getting bounced around a bit?
I have a DR100MKii and now I have a DR70D. In my opinion they're entirely worth what you pay for them. You shouldn't expect a pro grade piece of gear for this amount of money. What I found with my DR100MKii is that it held up fine and after three years of use it's still working fine. That's the good news. But it's plastic and I just kept in in the bottom of my gear bag. Now it looks like shit. It's been through a war and back and there's no way I can sell it now.
But that's not Tascam's fault...that's my fault. I knew it was plastic from the first day I bought it and by keeping it in my bag exposed to cable ends XLRs, clamps, etc. it suffered the consequences of my poor decision not to protect it better.
I've owned a SD744 and three SD702s on separate occasions. They're metal and don't get nicked up like that. I don't have to put them away and they still looked brand new a couple years later. They also cost ten times more than the Tascam.
So, when I bought the DR70D, I made sure and put it away in a protective case from the day I got it. That's all you have to do to make sure it'll survive.
This is good advice for any of gear that's mostly plastic or ABS constructed.
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The construction is decent. It doesn't feel particularly cheap and flimsy to me. It feels and looks more finished and solid than the DR-40 I recently purchased. Of course it is not pro gear, so don't expect SD construction or even Sony construction. But if you treat it nice (as noted above), I would expect it to hold up rather well.
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Thanks for weighing in all.
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Here's my testament to the quality of the internal pres with a 250-voice high school choir from last week, using a 4-mic array. Included in the DB link is a complete second chain of MK4 / MK8 > CMC 5U > FP24 > M10.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172679.msg2144032#msg2144032 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172679.msg2144032#msg2144032)
Per the recent discussion, this was recorded with LOW gain, but with the gain knobs all the way up (CM3s) or almost all the way (X-Qs). This concert was the first time I have ever used anything but HIGH gain. Actually I started it that way, but after the first piece was hitting -6dB peaks with HIGH gain but knobs set very low, I decided to be safe and switch to LOW. The sample included in the link was then peaking at around -16dB, right where I wanted to be.
For something completely different, here's a Civil-War period band at a dress rehearsal of the choir I sing with, same exact setup as above, but different venue - much smaller but much more boomy room.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gp36bit7bmuc1l6/AACrqgu0QZ4CTDrZbXN_x83ta/Street%20Marches%20MIX.mp3?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gp36bit7bmuc1l6/AACrqgu0QZ4CTDrZbXN_x83ta/Street%20Marches%20MIX.mp3?dl=0)
Details on that with more samples if you're interested:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/930912-three-mixes-boojum-jnorman-case-study-2.html#post11020078 (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/930912-three-mixes-boojum-jnorman-case-study-2.html#post11020078)
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I may unfortunately need to seek my JWmod DR70D to pay off some unexpected bills. I may already have an interested party, but thought I would throw this out here as well as a possible teaser. Please let me know if anyone may be interested. Unit is mint/like new and would come with everything I received in the original packaging along with the Tascam factory wall wort which was a separate purchase. Price wise I am thinking around $440 shipped if there is anyone who may want to jump in line in case the first one falls through.
Wife had an unexpected surgery and now have some unexpected bills. :face palm:
I thought I would post in this thread before going to yard sale to gauge the interest since many of you have followed this mod along the way.
PM me if interested
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Bummer, but hope your wife has a full recovery.
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Yeah kinda sucks. It is a great deck. Only recorded 5-6 shows with it thus far and a couple friends acoustic in their living rooms. If I can keep it I will, but thought I would see if there was any interest here and then make up my mind.
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Who is running what (other than internals) for batteries?
Any personal experiences with these
http://www.amazon.com/BP-6AA-External-Battery-Portable-Recorder/dp/B0065GF5W6
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Can anyone comment on runtimes off internal alkalines? N-MH recharables?
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Can anyone comment on runtimes off internal alkalines? N-MH recharables?
I ran off internal alkalines by accident once, thinking I had selected external power and didn't. I was only running my CM3s (3.5 mA each), and the 70D shut down after about 1:40. Haven't tried the AA rechargeables I use with my FP24, as I always use an external USB power pack with the 70D.
Check the FAQ (link in my sig) for powering requirements and a couple recommendations for external batteries. I have the 12,000mAh RavPower and it's rock solid with the 70D. I charge it up after every two concerts of around 2 hours runtime (powering 4 mics) but I imagine it will last much longer.
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I ran off internal alkalines by accident once, thinking I had selected external power and didn't. I was only running my CM3s (3.5 mA each), and the 70D shut down after about 1:40. Haven't tried the AA rechargeables I use with my FP24, as I always use an external USB power pack with the 70D.
Check the FAQ (link in my sig) for powering requirements and a couple recommendations for external batteries. I have the 12,000mAh RavPower and it's rock solid with the 70D. I charge it up after every two concerts of around 2 hours runtime (powering 4 mics) but I imagine it will last much longer.
[/quote]
Thanks for all the info in your FAQ section. My Busman DR-70D will be here soon, and I will definitely check back into your FAQ at startup.
That RavPower 12k mAh battery is the cat's ass. Makes the OEM Tascam unit seem like it's from the 80s.
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I think I discovered why that one concert ran off of the internal batteries even though the RavPower was connected. It wasn't that I forgot to select USB Power (at least not initially). I set everything up very early, like an hour before the concert and then walked away until about 10 minutes before start time. During that time the 70D had powered itself down due to inactivity. When I powered it back on, I never hit the button on the RavPower to wake IT back up as well, I just assumed since it was connected I was running off the external. Not the case, the external battery was turned off.
So, lesson learned - make sure the external battery is actually ON, and make sure the little USB icon is on the 70D's screen before relaxing and enjoying your concert.
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Marking this thread. Should have my unit this week.
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Marking this thread. Should have my unit this week.
Awesome! Glad you are pulling trigger
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Is there anyone who has a 70d that has/had a 60d too?
Would be interested in a comp
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Tascam added another firmware update (v1.10) a few days ago. It appears they added a MID setting to the gain options.
Files: http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/downloads/
Release notes: http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/e_dr-70d_rn_vc.pdf
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Thanks for posting that update! Can anyone find out what the gain pot ranges for the new levels are? If so, please post it and I'll add it to the FAQ.
It's good to see Tascam posting firmware updates. I emailed all of their customer service emails with our list of issues, but I never received any reply from them.
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I am leaning toward pulling the trigger on the B & H bundle deal. It is an outstanding value with memory card etc plus I use Sound Forge (v9.0 currently).
Before I make final decision would like to hear an MBHO ka200 source using the stock preamps but can't find one on LMA. Does anyone know of a source using the ka200's?
Thanks
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Tascam added another firmware update (v1.10) a few days ago. It appears they added a MID setting to the gain options.
Files: http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/downloads/
Release notes: http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/e_dr-70d_rn_vc.pdf
This is really great news, I suspect MID will be the preferred setting for most OTS and FOB settings. I can't wait to try it out!
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Can anyone find out what the gain pot ranges for the new levels are?
How were these being determined? From the display? I haven't tinkered much with this recorder yet, although I did install the update with no issues.
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Can anyone find out what the gain pot ranges for the new levels are?
How were these being determined? From the display? I haven't tinkered much with this recorder yet, although I did install the update with no issues.
That's a good question - someone posted those ranges a long time ago but I can't remember where. The official Tascam literature doesn't specify the minimum levels of the trim pots; only the maximums: LOW +11 dB, HIGH: +51 dB, HIGH+: +63 dB.
The numbers I copied and pasted into the FAQ are:
Gain Pot Ranges:
LOW: -21dB to +11dB
HIGH: +19dB to +51dB
HIGH+: +52dB to +63dB
I don't know how those minimum numbers were determined. Maybe the person who initially posted this in the discussion thread will chime in with where they found it.
And just in case anyone was wondering, Tascam has not yet posted an updated Specifications page or an updated manual which shows the new MID gain level.
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The numbers I copied and pasted into the FAQ are:
Gain Pot Ranges:
LOW: -21dB to +11dB
HIGH: +19dB to +51dB
HIGH+: +52dB to +63dB
I don't know how those minimum numbers were determined. Maybe the person who initially posted this in the discussion thread will chime in with where they found it.
And just in case anyone was wondering, Tascam has not yet posted an updated Specifications page or an updated manual which shows the new MID gain level.
I suppose the MID level may just fill in the hole in those Ranges, i.e.,
MID: +12dB to +18dB
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The numbers I copied and pasted into the FAQ are:
Gain Pot Ranges:
LOW: -21dB to +11dB
HIGH: +19dB to +51dB
HIGH+: +52dB to +63dB
I don't know how those minimum numbers were determined. Maybe the person who initially posted this in the discussion thread will chime in with where they found it.
And just in case anyone was wondering, Tascam has not yet posted an updated Specifications page or an updated manual which shows the new MID gain level.
I suppose the MID level may just fill in the hole in those Ranges, i.e.,
MID: +12dB to +18dB
Maybe, but I doubt they'd give that new setting only a 6 dB range. I would imagine they would change the ranges of LOW and HIGH and give it a 12 dB range which would be more useful. I'm not fully confident that the lower limits that I have listed for the 3 levels above are correct though as I can't find them anywhere official. There definitely does seem to be a gap in gain level between the upper limit of LOW and the lower limit of HIGH on the stock firmware.
Once again, this thing really needs better metering and readouts in general so we can have an idea what's really happening. If only Tascam customer service would reply to emails. >:(
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That's a good question - someone posted those ranges a long time ago but I can't remember where. The official Tascam literature doesn't specify the minimum levels of the trim pots; only the maximums: LOW +11 dB, HIGH: +51 dB, HIGH+: +63 dB.
I just noticed these are listed under the specs on Tascam's page, however, they haven't been updated for the new MID selection. I wonder if sending a test tone through one of the inputs while adjusting the gain knobs and monitoring the display would give an indication of each range?
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Great news about the "MID" gain setting. My only recording so far was with Nak CM-300s on low. It came out way too low, but I've never run those with any other gain setting on my DR-2d so I was scared to run them on high.
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Great news about the "MID" gain setting. My only recording so far was with Nak CM-300s on low. It came out way too low, but I've never run those with any other gain setting on my DR-2d so I was scared to run them on high.
Are you running a preamp in front? I recorded an acoustic show on low with a SD MP2 and the results were amazing.
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No preamp. I would love that, but I think the Naks have to be modded to run off anything other than batteries. They are powered by 12V each. The results weren't bad at all, just too low for my taste. Something about having to amplify 15 or 20db feels wrong somehow, even if it's in 24 bit.
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Great news about the "MID" gain setting. My only recording so far was with Nak CM-300s on low. It came out way too low, but I've never run those with any other gain setting on my DR-2d so I was scared to run them on high.
Your results on LOW with lower output mics mirrors mine - I've run my Sony ECM999PR and Altec 626a - and had the knobs all way up on LOW.
Hopefully this new firmware (and the new MID setting) will solve the too low level problem (if you consider it a problem - I have a feeling guys who record Heavy Metal might think its the cat's meow!)
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Great news about the "MID" gain setting. My only recording so far was with Nak CM-300s on low. It came out way too low, but I've never run those with any other gain setting on my DR-2d so I was scared to run them on high.
Your results on LOW with lower output mics mirrors mine - I've run my Sony ECM999PR and Altec 626a - and had the knobs all way up on LOW.
Hopefully this new firmware (and the new MID setting) will solve the too low level problem (if you consider it a problem - I have a feeling guys who record Heavy Metal might think its the cat's meow!)
Yeah I think it was you that posted about the Altecs being way too low on LOW but way too high on HIGH so I was reluctant to do anything other than LOW. I really don't know, HIGH might have been fine but it's a risk IMO.
The Altecs are the same as the Naks/Teacs/Primos/Tascams/whatever. I bet anyone using these mics will have a similar issue. Even if recording something loud (like metal) I doubt you would get the levels you want with these settings.
Just curious - how are you powering your mics?
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That's a good question - someone posted those ranges a long time ago but I can't remember where. The official Tascam literature doesn't specify the minimum levels of the trim pots; only the maximums: LOW +11 dB, HIGH: +51 dB, HIGH+: +63 dB.
I just noticed these are listed under the specs on Tascam's page, however, they haven't been updated for the new MID selection. I wonder if sending a test tone through one of the inputs while adjusting the gain knobs and monitoring the display would give an indication of each range?
I thought about doing this, but unfortunately the monitoring is not accurate (again, the thing that I really wish Tascam had devoted their attention to). See the FAQ page for an explanation. Short version - the display moves in 2 dB steps, while in reality the gain is changing in 0.5 dB steps.
Also, keep in mind the max gain levels Tascam lists on the specs page are with the XLR inputs set to MIC or MIC+PHANTOM which is going to result in a hotter level than if the input were set to LINE. I haven't tried it with the tone from my FP24, but I imagine you might get to the point where you're brickwalling the input before you get all the way up the input trimpot, especially when set to HIGH and HIGH+.
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Tried doing comp recording of 60d and 70d on the 1/8 inputs. Came out similar since both use njm4580 amps, but 70d was a bit shrill. The 60d was set on high and the 70d was set on high +. Came away liking 60d version.
The recording wasn't clipped. Wonder if the ranges on the 70d are such that I should have set it to high and adjusted the gain Knobs higher?
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http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/dealZone.jsp
21.95 ships free
Nice battery for the Tascam 70D
15,000 mah originally 48 dollars, down to 21 shipped.. I grabbed one. I now have two decent battery packs.
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Tried doing comp recording of 60d and 70d on the 1/8 inputs. Came out similar since both use njm4580 amps, but 70d was a bit shrill. The 60d was set on high and the 70d was set on high +. Came away liking 60d version.
The recording wasn't clipped. Wonder if the ranges on the 70d are such that I should have set it to high and adjusted the gain Knobs higher?
I wonder if the 1/8 inputs were set to MIC instead of LINE? If set to MIC, then the HIGH+ range would get you up to 38 dB gain on those inputs according to the specs. They don't specify for the LINE setting. Either way, I found through my very non-scientific testing that HIGH+ is quite a bit noisier than the other two settings.
If you're using an external preamp, I'm not sure why you would use anything other than the LOW range and LINE setting. Or were you running PIP mics straight in or battery boxes instead?
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Joining the team. Mine should be here on Friday. ;D
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Tried doing comp recording of 60d and 70d on the 1/8 inputs. Came out similar since both use njm4580 amps, but 70d was a bit shrill. The 60d was set on high and the 70d was set on high +. Came away liking 60d version.
The recording wasn't clipped. Wonder if the ranges on the 70d are such that I should have set it to high and adjusted the gain Knobs higher?
I wonder if the 1/8 inputs were set to MIC instead of LINE? If set to MIC, then the HIGH+ range would get you up to 38 dB gain on those inputs according to the specs. They don't specify for the LINE setting. Either way, I found through my very non-scientific testing that HIGH+ is quite a bit noisier than the other two settings.
If you're using an external preamp, I'm not sure why you would use anything other than the LOW range and LINE setting. Or were you running PIP mics straight in or battery boxes instead?
I was powering AT853s from a SP battery box. I need to redo the test on mic/HIGH on the 70d and see if the 60d and 70d aren't nearly indistinguishable on 1/8 in. Then I need to compare the XLRs.
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Tried doing comp recording of 60d and 70d on the 1/8 inputs. Came out similar since both use njm4580 amps, but 70d was a bit shrill. The 60d was set on high and the 70d was set on high +. Came away liking 60d version.
The recording wasn't clipped. Wonder if the ranges on the 70d are such that I should have set it to high and adjusted the gain Knobs higher?
I wonder if the 1/8 inputs were set to MIC instead of LINE? If set to MIC, then the HIGH+ range would get you up to 38 dB gain on those inputs according to the specs. They don't specify for the LINE setting. Either way, I found through my very non-scientific testing that HIGH+ is quite a bit noisier than the other two settings.
If you're using an external preamp, I'm not sure why you would use anything other than the LOW range and LINE setting. Or were you running PIP mics straight in or battery boxes instead?
I was powering AT853s from a SP battery box. I need to redo the test on mic/HIGH on the 70d and see if the 60d and 70d aren't nearly indistinguishable on 1/8 in. Then I need to compare the XLRs.
So you're saying the way you tested it was LINE/HIGH+ on the 70D? I would still expect that to be pretty noisy, and still I would think you'd be better off with LOW or HIGH. Were your levels on the HIGH setting too low?
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Recently joined the team. Unit arrived Saturday and I immediately installed the latest firmware. Attended an event I hadn't planned on recording but took the 70D along to experiment. Recorded an Americana act (electric, acoustic guitar, fiddle and upright bass) nothing too loud, but certainly amplified. Seated near the sweet spot, recorder on my lap and using the internal mics...I used the new Mid gain setting with the knobs positioned at 12 o'clock. Pleased with the levels and somewhat surprised with the internals, not that I'd ever plan on using them.
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Tried doing comp recording of 60d and 70d on the 1/8 inputs. Came out similar since both use njm4580 amps, but 70d was a bit shrill. The 60d was set on high and the 70d was set on high +. Came away liking 60d version.
The recording wasn't clipped. Wonder if the ranges on the 70d are such that I should have set it to high and adjusted the gain Knobs higher?
I wonder if the 1/8 inputs were set to MIC instead of LINE? If set to MIC, then the HIGH+ range would get you up to 38 dB gain on those inputs according to the specs. They don't specify for the LINE setting. Either way, I found through my very non-scientific testing that HIGH+ is quite a bit noisier than the other two settings.
If you're using an external preamp, I'm not sure why you would use anything other than the LOW range and LINE setting. Or were you running PIP mics straight in or battery boxes instead?
I was powering AT853s from a SP battery box. I need to redo the test on mic/HIGH on the 70d and see if the 60d and 70d aren't nearly indistinguishable on 1/8 in. Then I need to compare the XLRs.
So you're saying the way you tested it was LINE/HIGH+ on the 70D? I would still expect that to be pretty noisy, and still I would think you'd be better off with LOW or HIGH. Were your levels on the HIGH setting too low?
The test was set to mic HIGH + setting on the 70d. I was more concerned with trying to stay at a consistent level between the 60d and the 70d when I should have paid more attention to the which gain setting I used on the 70d and then matched gain.
So I have redo it because I feel like it's botched.
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Just installed the 1.10 firmware. Hopefully going to give the MID gain level a shot tonight, got a free local show to practice for the big shows in a couple weeks. Even if it's just a little higher levels that would be great. Going to be running Nak CM-300s into the 3-4 inputs.
On a related note, I just received custom cables from GAKables to use with the DR-70D. As was recommended elsewhere, I had them custom ordered to have mirrored wires, so the wires exit "under" the recorder. I'll report back.
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Anyone test the MID setting in the field? I might use it at my next show.
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Anyone test the MID setting in the field? I might use it at my next show.
I'm hoping to tonight. I'll report back if it happens.
Just something I'd like to add. I have a Lowepro Flipside 200 "camera bag" that I've used for taping the last few years. Originally it was just something to use to carry all of my gear but it seems to be a perfect fit for the DR-70D. It has adjustable compartments that I need to play with for a perfect setup. However, I've placed the recorder with the front up in the bag and it's just the right amount of space.
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Installed the 1.10 firmware.
Ran a test at home and had levels set to high and pods gain at 10 o'clock and the max level on recorder was -6 DB with my stereo at a certain volume number and a specific song. Then I changed it to mid setting with exactly same volume number on stereo and same song and gain pods still at the same 10 oclock position and the max level was -11 DB. So everything the same stereo volume, song, pods at same position and changing from high to mid setting caused a "-5DB reduction". Not scientific just an observation.
Ran setting of low, mid and high at that same volume with pre-amp/without and running 4 channels. The high setting sounded slightly pushed. Also tried line/mic and line sounds more shrill then mic setting to me. Surprisingly I liked the mid setting the best if you did not have a pre-amp. The mid setting did not sound pushed and sounded more natural and better matched the gain pod levels of the recorder then really low or high and my mics. Low setting sounds very natural with a pre-amp in front of it. The kick drum sounded the most real running low setting with pre-amp. It was a noticeable difference.
Above results without pre-amp in low/mid/high and pod gain setting for above song at certain volume:
With low setting had to gain pods all the way up and still did not get above -11 DB as max DB signal for the song.
With mid setting gain at about 12 o'clock to get -6 DB as the max DB signal for the song.
With high setting gain almost turned off or at 9-10 o'clock to get to -6 DB as max DB signal for the song.
Did notice if you have both phantom power on the deck seems a little slower functioning wise. Like you are starting to max out the capability of the unit running 4 channels with both phantom powers on. Not saying it had a problem or skipped a beat - just did not respond as fast.
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I did some testing on the gain ranges both before and after installing the 1.10 firmware. I had been on the 1.01 firmware previously.
Since I don't own a tone generator with variable output level, I used the headphone output of my audio interface with a 1/8" > 1/4" Y cable into the combo inputs of the 70D. I set the level of that headphone jack such that when the 70D was set to HIGH+ with the trim pot at maximum, it displayed -3 dB. As I've already established, the display is not that precise, but good enough for this test. This was only to find gain ranges, not to test noise or performance.
For the LOW gain range (and subsequently LOW and MID on the 1.10 firmware), I raised the headphone output level in order to more accurately see what was going on in the bottom ranges.
Input was set to MIC to match what TASCAM uses on their spec sheet, and I only tested Channel 1 of the XLR combo jacks. Format was 24/96 WAV.
While recording, I slowly varied the trim pot position. Those recordings were then examined in iZotope RX and I recorded the maximum and minimum values of each. For the 1.01 firmware, I was able to have Tascam's stated maximum trim pot positions as starting points, and then use the difference between my maximum and minimum recorded values to figure out what the minimum gain range was.
For the updated 1.10 firmware, I found through testing that my maximum measured levels at HIGH+ and HIGH were identical to that of the old firmware, as was the minimum measured levels of LOW. I was able to use those numbers to calculate upper range of LOW, as well as the upper / lower limits of MID. I rounded off the numbers to the nearest dB. Clearly this was a non-scientific test, but my numbers were consistent enough through multiple attempts that I feel fairly confident in these results.
Gain Range 1.01 Firmware 1.10 Firmware
HIGH+ +31 to +63 +42 to +63
HIGH +20 to +51 +30 to +51
MID N/A 0 to +22
LOW -21 to +11 -21 to +7
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I redid my AT853>SPBB comparison going 1/8 in to the 60d and 70d, both set on high. I can't tell a difference on those settings. However, the high + setting is something I'd avoid if possible.
I tried running the AT853s (resistor modded) directly in without the battery box. The 60d seemed to power them enough for testing. The 70d had some odd noises on it. So I put the BB into the path and the noise ceased FWIW.
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I updated the FAQ with the new gain ranges, and made a note that HIGH+ is too noisy for most use. This didn't change with the firmware update, which isn't surprising. That may be reason enough to mod this unit with lower noise opamps. I think the new MID setting is going to be the default go-to range though.
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Just received my Busman DR-70D over the weekend. Very excited to try it out at WSP/ UM on Friday. I have not upgraded the firmware to get the mid range; but I think I'll be OK without it for this show, right?
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Just received my Busan DR-70D over the weekend. Very excited to try it out at WSP/ UM on Friday. I have not upgraded the firmware to get the mid range; but I think I'll be OK without it for this show, right?
You should be fine. I've used HIGH for everything but one concert that was loud, and I switched it to LOW. If you go with LOW, be prepared to crank the pots unless it's a very loud show.
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Mike D, I'll be using mine for the first time at WSP/UM on Saturday, so.... if you have any last minute pointers.
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Just received my Busan DR-70D over the weekend. Very excited to try it out at WSP/ UM on Friday. I have not upgraded the firmware to get the mid range; but I think I'll be OK without it for this show, right?
You should be fine. I've used HIGH for everything but one concert that was loud, and I switched it to LOW. If you go with LOW, be prepared to crank the pots unless it's a very loud show.
I have not had to pump anything in post and have recorded all my shows in Low. I am also running a SD MP2.
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I thought about doing this, but unfortunately the monitoring is not accurate (again, the thing that I really wish Tascam had devoted their attention to). See the FAQ page for an explanation. Short version - the display moves in 2 dB steps, while in reality the gain is changing in 0.5 dB steps.
I don't think this is a bug. The display moves in 2dB steps, and the mic-pre takes 0.5dB steps to reach that displayed value. There is no difference once the 0.5dB stepped ramp has ended.
Tom.
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Been a busy 7 day since I got my D70 and have only had the opportunity to put a few hours on it. I just installed the 1.10 firmware and am ready to go on the road for WSP/UM at Jones Beach. The thing I'm most worried about (besides the wind) is insuring that I'm running p48 from my Rolls vs. phantom power from the D70. The literature is unclear to me.
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There are 3 relevant menu areas.
Phantom power is turned on and off via the menu on the 70d. Go to menu by pressing the menu button, scroll to input rotating the data wheel, press data wheel to select INPUT and it will bring up CH1/CH2/CH3/CH4 menu. Under that menu , go to input gain and the 3 options are line/ mic/mic+phantom. You have to set the input gain here for each channel individually by scrolling down for each channel.
What is confusing is there is a similar menu for all four channels under BASIC where you tell you which channels to turn on and select from low/mid/high/high plus gain as well as pick inputs.
Then there is the MIC menu where you choose 24v or 48v phantom power.
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Am I correct in assuming that Mic provides power to the mics from the D70 and Mic+phantom switches to external phantom?
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I thought about doing this, but unfortunately the monitoring is not accurate (again, the thing that I really wish Tascam had devoted their attention to). See the FAQ page for an explanation. Short version - the display moves in 2 dB steps, while in reality the gain is changing in 0.5 dB steps.
I don't think this is a bug. The display moves in 2dB steps, and the mic-pre takes 0.5dB steps to reach that displayed value. There is no difference once the 0.5dB stepped ramp has ended.
Tom.
Hi Tom,
Glad to see you active again here. I'm not sure I understand your explanation though. Are you saying that once you stop moving a gain pot, the actual gain "settles" into a preset 2 dB step despite that it is in fact changing by 0.5 dB steps to get to that point? In other words, are you saying that it's not possible for channels to be mismatched by 0.5, 1.0, or 1.5 dB because the software will nudge the gain up or down to the closest 2 dB step?
While you're part of the conversation here, would you please pass the Known Issues / Firmware Requests on the FAQ (link in my signature) on to someone at Tascam who deals with firmware issues? I have twice sent very polite emails to both Tascam and Teac customer support and technical support and have not received any replies. Regardless of your answer to my question above, I still consider the metering to be a significant problem with this unit, and there are some other significant issues you'll see on the list that we have discovered.
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Am I correct in assuming that Mic provides power to the mics from the D70 and Mic+phantom switches to external phantom?
No - MIC means that the input is set to mic-level (as opposed to line-level) but without any powering. MIC+PHANTOM activates phantom power through whichever XLR jacks you activate it for. If you're using an external preamp, you'd want to set the input to LINE. If it's only an external phantom power device and not a preamp that adds gain, you may find MIC would work, but certainly do not use MIC+PHANTOM unless you want to power your mics directly from the 70D.
2manyrocks is correct that it's a little cumbersome to have to go through two different menu trees to do the relevant settings of channel enabling and phantom powering, etc. BASIC and INPUT are the ones we're concerned with. Here's an example of two different kinds of mic powering scenarios where that gets a little confusing:
1. If you want to connect a pair of phantom-powered mics directly to channels 1 and 2, you go to BASIC and then set INPUT 1/2 to XLR/TRS. Then you exit out of there and go to INPUT > INPUT GAIN and set it to MIC+PHANTOM to power said mics. You also need to go into the MIC menu to check that you've set it to provide 24V or 48V phantom, but that only needs to be done once assuming you always use the same voltage.
2. If you want to connect a pair of PIP-powered mics terminated to a 1/8" stereo plug (Church Audio, Darktrain/tgakidis AT853s, etc.), you go to BASIC and set INPUT 1/2 to EXT IN (if using a battery box) or EXT POWER to power them directly from the 70D. You do not do anything in the INPUT GAIN menu when dealing with that EXT IN 1/2 input with respect to powering the mics.
In practice, the PIP voltage the 70D is too low to get good performance out of most PIP, mics and you'd be better off with a battery box (in which case you choose EXT IN). But it is a little strange that you activate PIP powering for the 1/8 input in the BASIC menu, but phantom powering for the XLR inputs in the INPUT menu and the choice of voltage in the MIC menu. Perhaps these things are purposely separated so one doesn't change them accidentally.
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Been a busy 7 day since I got my D70 and have only had the opportunity to put a few hours on it. I just installed the 1.10 firmware and am ready to go on the road for WSP/UM at Jones Beach. The thing I'm most worried about (besides the wind) is insuring that I'm running p48 from my Rolls vs. phantom power from the D70. The literature is unclear to me.
You might be pleasantly surprised to run your phantom powered XLR mics directly into the 70d without a preamp.
A good 5v cellphone battery to power the 70d will make it run for hours without worry, too.
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Thanks for the clarification. I've favored the idea of using my CM3's with the Rolls (strictly v48, no pre) mainly because... well, I have it. But I'm going to run the D70 with USB power so maybe it's just time to break that habit. It would be one less thing to carry, as well.
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Thanks for the clarification. I've favored the idea of using my CM3's with the Rolls (strictly v48, no pre) mainly because... well, I have it. But I'm going to run the D70 with USB power so maybe it's just time to break that habit. It would be one less thing to carry, as well.
Yeah I haven't used my FP24 at all since getting the 70D except for one concert where I ran 6 channels and the last 2 were FP24 > M10. If you need lots of gain though, run an external pre as the 70D is not in the same league as SD or other similar preamps when at the highest gain levels.
If you just need phantom powering, then I agree completely with 2manyrocks that you get an external USB battery and have your Rolls at home.
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Mike D, I'll be using mine for the first time at WSP/UM on Saturday, so.... if you have any last minute pointers.
I'm going to be "that guy" in the tapers section flipping through the owners manual with a flashlight (trying not to curse too loudly).
But seriously, I've tested the new rig once, briefly in my living room. I hope to get in and set up early and test with the house music.
I'll def report back if an obvious mistake was made or my recording got botched.
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Here's a sample of the built-in mics.
This is is in the back of a theatre - maybe 35 feet from stage.
https://soundcloud.com/eugene-beecher/sets/pennsylvania-opry-tribute-to-the-andrews-sisters
I did have a problem this outing...I have 2 quick bursts of static in the right channel.
(The third spike that appears in both channels is actually a gunshot - part of the comedy segment.)
I did format my card pre-show - and I've only used this Lexar card - 5-6 times.
You'd think a card issue would affect both channels...?
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FWIW, 70d is in some respects easier to set than some other tascam, but I suggest setting it up at home like you intend to run it to get acquainted with it.
Def don't like to see those spikes. I would try making a recording with the same card with the internals and without them. Maybe there is something not quite right with the internal mics? Hard to say what it is.
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is it possible to do a firmware update with USB power connected? I don't have fresh alkaline AA's handy, only half-used ones, and would hate to brick this thing.
When I power up from batteries with the menu & stop buttons pressed (to get to the firmware update) the machine locks up when I plug in USB power & try to use it...
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I just used USB power from my laptop and selected 'storage' when prompted on the unit.
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I just used USB power from my laptop and selected 'storage' when prompted on the unit.
and once in storage mode, how did you start the firmware update?
edit: I took a chance and used a half-used set of AA's. The update took about 5 minutes, I think.
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Sorry, I wasn't clear. I connected the unit to my laptop (via STORAGE...it will still utilize the power from USB this way) to copy the new firmware file to the UTILITY folder on the recorder. Then, I powered it down and restarted to run the update within the menu selection of the Tascam, which can be done with any source of power. I just happened to use my laptop's USB power for convenience. Just make sure to set it to BUS POWER when you go to run the update after you've copied over the new firmware.
edit - Yes, it should take around 5 minutes, as morst said.
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...Just make sure to set it to BUS POWER when you go to run the update after you've copied over the new firmware.
OK I think I have my Update Mode power issue figured out now.
When you hold Menu & Stop so that you can start up in Update Mode, it starts up on external bus power by default.
As long as there is external power supplied when the machine starts in Update Mode, it will use external power. I demonstrated this to my satisfaction by booting into Update Mode from a USB pack, or from my computer, and then opening the battery door. No message or blip from the machine, as it would during normal operation if I was running on batteries and had connected a fresh USB pack or the computer.
Then, with the power off, I removed the batteries, and booted into Update Mode from an external USB pack, or with USB power supplied from my computer. It boots smoothly straight to the update screen without asking about power or storage in either case.
The only way I get an error is what I was doing at first, and that's booting from internal batteries into Update Mode, then once it's at the update screen, plugging in any USB source and attempting to use Bus Power. It sends it into error mode where the only way to power off is to remove the internal batteries. The display reads "System Err 50 ------- Please PWR OFF" on two lines.
I am The Error Finder sometimes!?! With my nonstandard practices!?!!
When I power up from batteries with the menu & stop buttons pressed (to get to the firmware update) the machine locks up when I plug in USB power & try to use it...
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I have had nothing but trouble with the following SD card:
Sandisk Ultra 32GB SDHC Class 10 (Amazon Link (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007M51J3I/ref=pe_385040_30332190_TE_M3T1_ST1_dp_1))
Unfortunately, my first recording with the DR-70D was marred by digital artifacts using this card. I was able to replicate the issue at home with different mics and various powering sources (USB rechargeable battery, USB laptop power, and USB wall wart). I even reformatted the card in the unit multiple times. I eventually swapped in a Sandisk 8GB Class 4 card and there haven't been any issues thus far. I was beginning to worry about this recorder, but am feeling better now.
Digi-artifacts aside, recording with the unit was a breeze and the parts unaffected sound great. Thankfully, MIQ was running at stage-lip also and got a great recording of Charlie Hunter and Scott Amendola. My unit has the most recent firmware update (v1.10). I ran MGs>nbob colletes>PFA>DR-70D, p48, 24/48. The gain setting was set to LOW and the gain knobs were set roughly 10:00-12:00.
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I had an issue this weekend with a Lexar Class 10 32 gig card recording 4 channels. I used the same card a few times doing two channels and never had an issue. It is a weird digi noise I got in both files. Going to try and use a PNY 16 gig card this weekend and see if I have any issues.
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New firmware V1.13 now on the TASCAM website. Stability fixes all round. The Android DR control app is updated on Google Play, the iOS app hasn't gone live on iTunes yet.
Note: This version only updates from V1.12, so you must be at that level already. The WiFi module update is now included, there will no longer be a separate update file.
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New firmware V1.13 now on the TASCAM website. Stability fixes all round. The Android DR control app is updated on Google Play, the iOS app hasn't gone live on iTunes yet.
Note: This version only updates from V1.12, so you must be at that level already. The WiFi module update is now included, there will no longer be a separate update file.
Is this in reference to a different unit? I'm not seeing the update on the site and the last firmware version released was 1.10.
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http://tascam.com/product/dr-44wl/downloads/ shows V1.13 (released today) for me..
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This is the DR-70D thread. Thanks for the notification, though. We appreciate you checking in.
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D'Oh. Need to change the color scheme I'm using on this forum.
DR-70D V1.11 is coming shortly though, minor bug fix wrt battery display after the USB cable is removed.
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I have had nothing but trouble with the following SD card:
Sandisk Ultra 32GB SDHC Class 10 (Amazon Link (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007M51J3I/ref=pe_385040_30332190_TE_M3T1_ST1_dp_1))
Unfortunately, my first recording with the DR-70D was marred by digital artifacts using this card. I was able to replicate the issue at home with different mics and various powering sources (USB rechargeable battery, USB laptop power, and USB wall wart). I even reformatted the card in the unit multiple times. I eventually swapped in a Sandisk 8GB Class 4 card and there haven't been any issues thus far. I was beginning to worry about this recorder, but am feeling better now.
Digi-artifacts aside, recording with the unit was a breeze and the parts unaffected sound great. Thankfully, MIQ was running at stage-lip also and got a great recording of Charlie Hunter and Scott Amendola. My unit has the most recent firmware update (v1.10). I ran MGs>nbob colletes>PFA>DR-70D, p48, 24/48. The gain setting was set to LOW and the gain knobs were set roughly 10:00-12:00.
I think I did have an issue using my 32gb Sandisk Ultra microsdhc card as well :( Various digi artifacts. The ONE time I didn't run my m10 as a backup too :( But Ive had great success so far with my PNY 32gb SD card
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So I had a rough time with my first field recording. Everything seemed simple enough in my living room, but as a real-world recording, not so much.
Keeping in mind this is a Busman modded DR-70D.
I wanted to record Umphrey's and WSP last weekend. Got there plenty early, setup, tested the house music/ ambient crowd noise; found the low/ high gain to be a huge difference. I was planning to run on high, but it was sooo sensitive. I had it at like 7-8 o'clock, and it was either undetectable, or overloading with the slightest adjustment. So I tried to switch the gain to low. Maybe I did, but in the process, I also mistakenly switched mics 1 & 2 off and 3 & 4 as the internal mics. I fiddled with the menu for a while, and then (after about the third song) just said fuck it.
During setbreak I was able to go through and possibly find where I went wrong. Switched all four channels to the proper settings (1&2 mic + phantom, 3&4 off) and the WSP set came out okay; Although I have some post work to do before it's ready for the public.
Around the 2 hr/ 1.99 gig mark, a new track automatically kicked in (any ideas what the trigger was?).
The sensitivity is not a bad thing, just takes some getting used to in regards to db gain and peak level.
So will this deck remember the settings with mics 1-4 (and the bit rate, etc), or I'm I going to have to program everything in the main menu every start-up?
The show was really good, BTW.
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It will remember the settings in most cases. If you leave a set of batteries in the unit, it will store the setting for sure.
For any loud concert, you aren't going to need more than 20-30db of gain. The low or medium should be fine.
I would NOT use the high unless you know it's going to be a pretty quiet event, as you can't change mid-recording.
At 24/96, you don't need to come close to clipping to get all the dynamic range of your recording. Keep it below the little dot 95% of the time.
The file split you referenced is normal, it's the 2gig limit of wav files. It will happen every hour at 24/96 and every two hours at 24/48 or 24/44.
There is not any data missing, the files are easily and seamlessly rejoined using an editing program such as sound forge, cubase, or protools.
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I'm not sure why Tascam spread the mic controls we need over three submenu items. ??? when you get them set, the unit will remember them.
the 70d really needs gangable controls, too.
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I'm not sure why Tascam spread the mic controls we need over three submenu items. ??? when you get them set, the unit will remember them.
the 70d really needs gangable controls, too.
Maybe you and others here could start bringing these things to Tascam's attention directly. I have had no luck. I PMd tomuo 3 times, emailed both Tascam and Teac customer support and tech support two times each. No replies. >:(
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I think we'd be telling them the obvious?
After reading Jim Williams response to your questions about the effect of the mod on quieter material over at GS, I started wondering if you'd be better off to feed your 70d from your FP24 instead of spending more $ on the mod? For one thing, you know what you're going to get. For another, why spend another $150?
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I'm not sure why Tascam spread the mic controls we need over three submenu items. ??? when you get them set, the unit will remember them.
the 70d really needs gangable controls, too.
Maybe you and others here could start bringing these things to Tascam's attention directly. I have had no luck. I PMd tomuo 3 times, emailed both Tascam and Teac customer support and tech support two times each. No replies. >:(
Each one reached me; you're trying too hard. Email to TASCAM customer support gets you a reference number and a reply. Email to factory repair about software requests doesn't. I'll only reply to PMs if I have accurate info to reply with, otherwise it just invites speculation.
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Email to TASCAM customer support gets you a reference number and a reply. Email to factory repair about software requests doesn't. I'll only reply to PMs if I have accurate info to reply with, otherwise it just invites speculation.
I very much appreciate the fact that a factory rep is in on this thread! Thanks to you and to Tascam! I'm glad I bought this unit! ;D
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Email to TASCAM customer support gets you a reference number and a reply. Email to factory repair about software requests doesn't. I'll only reply to PMs if I have accurate info to reply with, otherwise it just invites speculation.
I very much appreciate the fact that a factory rep is in on this thread! Thanks to you and to Tascam! I'm glad I bought this unit! ;D
Agreed. Especially so since we as tapers most certainly must constitute only a small fraction of the market. Nice to know the voice of the little guy can still be heard even in this day and age.
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I'm not sure why Tascam spread the mic controls we need over three submenu items. ??? when you get them set, the unit will remember them.
the 70d really needs gangable controls, too.
Maybe you and others here could start bringing these things to Tascam's attention directly. I have had no luck. I PMd tomuo 3 times, emailed both Tascam and Teac customer support and tech support two times each. No replies. >:(
Each one reached me; you're trying too hard. Email to TASCAM customer support gets you a reference number and a reply. Email to factory repair about software requests doesn't. I'll only reply to PMs if I have accurate info to reply with, otherwise it just invites speculation.
OK. But I never knew any of that, and all I was asking from you and the emails to Tascam was to point me to the correct person who deals with these things. I never even received a reference number email response from Tascam customer support as you describe, so the perception on my end is that things are not getting through. I was trying the tech support emails because there was no response from customer support, and I figured someone had to respond.
I'm sorry if my multiple PMs were an annoyance, but you could have simply replied the first time and said you didn't have that info. I was reaching out to you after falling to get a response from Tascam for over a month. I don't think that's "trying too hard."
That said, I appreciate you're here on this board to weigh in.
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:facepalm:
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What he emoticomed.
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There's also the repair and support side to consider. If you buy a more expensive recorder, you'll get perks such as the manufacturer priority shipping you a replacement unit as soon as you send yours in for repair, 24 hour phone support, or the dealer getting a good enough profit margin that they will cushion you with loaners and quick turn around in the event of a problem. Those are the corners that don't even exist in the budget category of recorders.
The unvarnished truth of it (from the F8 thread)...
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Only reason I didn't try a 70d, Tascams reputation is not good. I don't want to have to deal with them for repairs. Hope the Zoom people do better and it makes Tascam step up a bit on the customer service end.
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I get what you are all saying, however when I had an issue with my M10 (same price as 70D), Sony was very quick to respond. Obviously the price bracket of a "pro" unit has certain other service benefits that come with it as Tom points out, but I feel like a manufacturer can still make time for those who purchase less expensive products.
Clearly my opinion is in the minority here, so I'll stop pressing the issue.
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I get what you are all saying, however when I had an issue with my M10 (same price as 70D), Sony was very quick to respond. Obviously the price bracket of a "pro" unit has certain other service benefits that come with it as Tom points out, but I feel like a manufacturer can still make time for those who purchase less expensive products.
Clearly my opinion is in the minority here, so I'll stop pressing the issue.
I have the 60d but was hesitating to get it at first due to the marginal at best rep it seemed they have.
It also makes me wonder why they would release multi devices in a rather short period of time vs sony releasing one.
Lucky I have not had issues so it's a nonissue
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It's always a gamble outside of what, sound devices? I really tormented over choice of second deck, but it was ultimately worth a few hundred more to pick up another Oade mod 661 and know it can go right to Doug for a fix, and will probably, though not certainly, be more reliable. Could have gone either way, if I needed a four channel the 70 would have been well worth a shot through the warranty period. I just think Tascam can do better. Sony does, and the M10 isn't expensive. That's how you keep customers. Now has shit customer support, many lower rung brands do better imo. It's a philosophy of giving a shit and it pays off in loyalty.
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My thought is one has to look at Tascam as a consumer marketing company aimed at selling as many different recorders as at many different price points as they think will maximize their profits. When the 60d came out, people were amazed to get 4 channels (2 xlr, 1/8 stereo) with phantom power for what, $349? Then the price fell as the product matured and they brought out the 70d for $299, and people were amazed to get 4 XLR channels for that price. Sony has stuck with the run forever on AAs m10 with prices now around $200 and only one 1/8 input.
A guy I worked with said you have to keep your hooks in the water to catch fish. I suppose Tascam has multiple hooks in the water with all its different recorders. I guess that makes us the fish.
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True. No matter what, this is a ridiculous price for 4 xlr channels. Just silly cheap.
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It's always a gamble outside of what, sound devices? I really tormented over choice of second deck, but it was ultimately worth a few hundred more to pick up another Oade mod 661 and know it can go right to Doug for a fix, and will probably, though not certainly, be more reliable. Could have gone either way, if I needed a four channel the 70 would have been well worth a shot through the warranty period. I just think Tascam can do better. Sony does, and the M10 isn't expensive. That's how you keep customers. Now has shit customer support, many lower rung brands do better imo. It's a philosophy of giving a shit and it pays off in loyalty.
OK, what exactly is the problem with customer support, I'd like to try to improve that.
is it the limited warranty, repair problems, bad email response to pre-sales or post-sales questions, bad manuals?
What needs imrpoving, examples please?
We put a lot of effort into getting the best combination of cost and performance into a product, we don't want to put off people from buying it.
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I'm sorry if my multiple PMs were an annoyance, but you could have simply replied the first time and said you didn't have that info. I was reaching out to you after falling to get a response from Tascam for over a month. I don't think that's "trying too hard."
Appologies; to be honest, I thought I had replied the first time, but it may have been that I started on a reply, decided "but I don't know if this is 100% correct", and deferred it to get more info...
I'm trying to find out if support email is broken. We've had cases in the past where email to the parts department never went to the right internal address, but I thought those problems were behind us.
Tom.
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I'm sorry if my multiple PMs were an annoyance, but you could have simply replied the first time and said you didn't have that info. I was reaching out to you after falling to get a response from Tascam for over a month. I don't think that's "trying too hard."
Appologies; to be honest, I thought I had replied the first time, but it may have been that I started on a reply, decided "but I don't know if this is 100% correct", and deferred it to get more info...
I'm trying to find out if support email is broken. We've had cases in the past where email to the parts department never went to the right internal address, but I thought those problems were behind us.
Tom.
If you're curious, I first sent an email to Tascam support. After no rely for a week, I sent a second email there again, copied to tech support and also Teac customer support. I knew full well those were the wrong addresses for my issues, but I thought if the Tascam customer support email was broken, my message would get through one of the others and be forwarded to the correct place. Still nothing. A couple weeks later, I tried again to all of those addresses. Still no response.
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I thought about doing this, but unfortunately the monitoring is not accurate (again, the thing that I really wish Tascam had devoted their attention to). See the FAQ page for an explanation. Short version - the display moves in 2 dB steps, while in reality the gain is changing in 0.5 dB steps.
I don't think this is a bug. The display moves in 2dB steps, and the mic-pre takes 0.5dB steps to reach that displayed value. There is no difference once the 0.5dB stepped ramp has ended.
Tom.
I'm not sure I understand your explanation though. Are you saying that once you stop moving a gain pot, the actual gain "settles" into a preset 2 dB step despite that it is in fact changing by 0.5 dB steps to get to that point? In other words, are you saying that it's not possible for channels to be mismatched by 0.5, 1.0, or 1.5 dB because the software will nudge the gain up or down to the closest 2 dB step?
Tom, are you able to clarify your explanation of the gain steps as I asked above?
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It's always a gamble outside of what, sound devices? I really tormented over choice of second deck, but it was ultimately worth a few hundred more to pick up another Oade mod 661 and know it can go right to Doug for a fix, and will probably, though not certainly, be more reliable. Could have gone either way, if I needed a four channel the 70 would have been well worth a shot through the warranty period. I just think Tascam can do better. Sony does, and the M10 isn't expensive. That's how you keep customers. Now has shit customer support, many lower rung brands do better imo. It's a philosophy of giving a shit and it pays off in loyalty.
OK, what exactly is the problem with customer support, I'd like to try to improve that.
is it the limited warranty, repair problems, bad email response to pre-sales or post-sales questions, bad manuals?
What needs imrpoving, examples please?
We put a lot of effort into getting the best combination of cost and performance into a product, we don't want to put off people from buying it.
One example, which has kept me from seriously considering Tascam/Teac, starts at the following post and continues for several pages: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172109.msg2139103#msg2139103
< eta the original reason it went back for warranty service: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172109.msg2132611#msg2132611 >
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I'm not sure I understand your explanation though. Are you saying that once you stop moving a gain pot, the actual gain "settles" into a preset 2 dB step despite that it is in fact changing by 0.5 dB steps to get to that point? In other words, are you saying that it's not possible for channels to be mismatched by 0.5, 1.0, or 1.5 dB because the software will nudge the gain up or down to the closest 2 dB step?
Correct, the 0.5dB steps of the mic-pre minimize any staircase clicking (whcih was a problem blown all out of proportion on the DR-60D when it first came out), but the front panel control itself can only resolve to 2dB steps.
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I'm not sure I understand your explanation though. Are you saying that once you stop moving a gain pot, the actual gain "settles" into a preset 2 dB step despite that it is in fact changing by 0.5 dB steps to get to that point? In other words, are you saying that it's not possible for channels to be mismatched by 0.5, 1.0, or 1.5 dB because the software will nudge the gain up or down to the closest 2 dB step?
Correct, the 0.5dB steps of the mic-pre minimize any staircase clicking (whcih was a problem blown all out of proportion on the DR-60D when it first came out), but the front panel control itself can only resolve to 2dB steps.
OK, I had thought that the controls were resolving to 0.5dB and it just wasn't being displayed. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Email support : the form on this webpage is currently broken:
http://tascam.com/contact/support/
don't fill it in! It currently generates an auto-response, but doesn't forward the email to our internal system.
For customers in the US, email us directly at custser@tascam.com
For customers in the US needing to send in a unit for repair : contact@teacfactoryservice.com
For customers in the US, and worldwide who are willing to pay for international shipping, needing a part to do their own repairs : parts@teac.com
Phone support for US customers: 323-726-0303 ext. 617 (M-F, 8am-5pm Pacific)
For customers outside of the US, start here: http://teac-global.com/ and follow the links for your country/language.
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I was out of the country (at TEAC HQ in Japan) when 404 Not Found was having his repair problem, but I asked around.
Since the DR-70D is a newer product, all returns come to TASCAM HQ in Los Angeles, not our
factory repair center. This is so that we can keep an eye on any problems.
The unit he returned was verified to have a problem.
We authorized a NEW replacement unit.
Records show a unit was sent out.
404 received a unit that was shipped out from the Warehouse.
It was not from new stock, but from a different set of random return units that dealers stick us with. (i.e. a pre-refurb)
This was the warehouse's mistake, but the records show them sending a new one.
Thus the confusion started...
404 eventually requested and received a check from us for the full amount he paid (so we are out more
than we made from the unit when the dealer first got it from us.)
We certainly don't have any policy of "repairing" units with refurbs, this was a one-off mistake that took time
to be fully uncovered.
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Wow! This level of transparency / detail is refreshing. Thanks, Tom! I've been critical of the warranty and repair process in the past, so having this information is extremely helpful.
We certainly don't have any policy of "repairing" units with refurbs, this was a one-off mistake that took time
to be fully uncovered.
Glad to hear this is not policy. My experience of the process in 2011 was different, so kudos if this has changed. Receiving a new replacement was a primary concern when we initiated our repair request and we had to appeal to J. Finch because Tier 1 support made it very clear to us that we were not guaranteed a new unit and that we might be receiving a refurb.
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Getting a refurb for a warranty return is seriously fucked up.
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Happened by accident in the warehouse and then they refunded the entire purchase price when the mistake was found.
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Happened in the warehouse and then they refunded the entire purchase price when the customer complained about it and made the manufacturer's legal department aware of it.
fyp
Seems it could have been handled better if the one CS agent assigned to this model had been willing to believe the customer actually knew the difference between a "new" unit and a "non-new" unit - which turned out to be an abused dealer return.
On the plus side is a manufacturer's rep taking the time to find out what happened and to post the results of those findings.
In light of that, I'm more likely to consider a DR70D when I decide to purchase a 4 channel recorder, though the R44 is still the front runner due to all 4 inputs being on the same surface since that will fit my current bag whereas the DR70 won't; but with the money I would save getting a DR70 I could purchase a new bag and still have enough for new patch cords etc.
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Happened by accident in the warehouse and then they refunded the entire purchase price when the mistake was found.
Nice response then, mistakes happen.
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Yep. It's too easy to make a mistake.
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I will admit that after all the problems I had experienced, that Dale S. at TEAC/TASCAM was extremely helpful and apologetic to the problems I had experienced and resolved all issues.
I think I had May in customer service walking on broken glass whenever I called for updates on my problem, although I never was nasty and she helped me at every step as well as had me contact Dale.
My situation was an odd one and unfortunately left a bad taste for me, but it was resolved.
I was out of the country (at TEAC HQ in Japan) when 404 Not Found was having his repair problem, but I asked around.
Since the DR-70D is a newer product, all returns come to TASCAM HQ in Los Angeles, not our
factory repair center. This is so that we can keep an eye on any problems.
The unit he returned was verified to have a problem.
We authorized a NEW replacement unit.
Records show a unit was sent out.
404 received a unit that was shipped out from the Warehouse.
It was not from new stock, but from a different set of random return units that dealers stick us with. (i.e. a pre-refurb)
This was the warehouse's mistake, but the records show them sending a new one.
Thus the confusion started...
404 eventually requested and received a check from us for the full amount he paid (so we are out more
than we made from the unit when the dealer first got it from us.)
We certainly don't have any policy of "repairing" units with refurbs, this was a one-off mistake that took time
to be fully uncovered.
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I'm in. Recorder arrives Monday. My Sony M10 was among a bunch of stolen gear.
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Happened in the warehouse and then they refunded the entire purchase price when the customer complained about it and made the manufacturer's legal department aware of it.
fyp
Seems it could have been handled better if the one CS agent assigned to this model had been willing to believe the customer actually knew the difference between a "new" unit and a "non-new" unit - which turned out to be an abused dealer return.
On the plus side is a manufacturer's rep taking the time to find out what happened and to post the results of those findings.
In light of that, I'm more likely to consider a DR70D when I decide to purchase a 4 channel recorder, though the R44 is still the front runner due to all 4 inputs being on the same surface since that will fit my current bag whereas the DR70 won't; but with the money I would save getting a DR70 I could purchase a new bag and still have enough for new patch cords etc.
The 4th XLR on the opposite side of the other 3 XLR inputs really isn't a big deal at all. I have chopped cables from Darktrain and I can easily run 4 channels into it with right angle stubby cables! And if I am running my PFAs, I run that into channels 1/2, and my vms02ib>70d is ALWAYS on channels 3/4, so that I only have full size XLR's on channels 1/2, which are on the same side. PFA>1/2 with full size XLRs, and vms02ib>3/4 on Right angle stubby XLRs from Darktrain! And the 70D is tiny as hell, so it won't take up more than 10"-12" in length even with full size XLRs on all 4 inputs, so don't let that scare you away! And a couple pair of chopped cables wont run you that much!
Go for it! I PROMISE you that you wont regret it 8)
Bean
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I'm loving my DR-70D. Here's my take on the Fourth XLR conundrum: I made an aluminum cradle with a chassis-mount XLR attached, held via the bottom 1/4" thread.
The 4th XLR connector is transferred to the opposite side via a shorty male XLR and 6" of balanced lav cable that runs across the rear of the unit. It adds about 1-1/4" to the depth, but still easily fits into almost any bag. I also removed the flimsy rear door cover, making the battery hatch and SD card slot more accessible. (Obviously I've no interest in using the onboard mics! 8>]
cheers
Dave
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nice work :)
since width, not depth, was my limiting factor (even with stubbies) this gives me reason to reconsider the R44 being a beeter option for me going 4 chan
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WOW genius idea! - Hey TASCAM - maybe a new accessory!?
If you could squeeze a 6000mah rechargeable battery in there that would be slick!
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WOW genius idea! - Hey TASCAM - maybe a new accessory!?
If you could squeeze a 6000mah rechargeable battery in there that would be slick!
There's room for a lithium pack in the rear, but it would block access to the AA batteries and SD card.
I tape a 13000mAh lithium power bank under the deck and connect w/ a short right-angle USB cable.
(sorry for the lousy pics!)
Dave
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WOW genius idea! - Hey TASCAM - maybe a new accessory!?
If you could squeeze a 6000mah rechargeable battery in there that would be slick!
There's room for a lithium pack in the rear, but it would block access to the AA batteries and SD card.
I tape a 13000mAh lithium power bank under the deck and connect w/ a short right-angle USB cable.
(sorry for the lousy pics!)
Dave
My habit is to leave the AAs in as backup...and I guess you could leave the SD in card and transfer via USB?
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My habit is to leave the AAs in as backup...and I guess you could leave the SD in card and transfer via USB?
If you didn't need immediate access to either AAs or SD card, sure, the space at the back could be used for a (very) small lithium power bank. I actually looked for one that would fit right in, but any that will are very low capacity (~2200mAh), and IMO it would make more sense to redesign to fit a larger one. (BTW, if you needed super-long run times, the latest Anker 2nd gen. Pro2 20,000mAh fits perfectly underneath the (modded) DR-70.)
Dave
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I'm loving my DR-70D. Here's my take on the Fourth XLR conundrum: I made an aluminum cradle with a chassis-mount XLR attached, held via the bottom 1/4" thread.
The 4th XLR connector is transferred to the opposite side via a shorty male XLR and 6" of balanced lav cable that runs across the rear of the unit. It adds about 1-1/4" to the depth, but still easily fits into almost any bag. I also removed the flimsy rear door cover, making the battery hatch and SD card slot more accessible. (Obviously I've no interest in using the onboard mics! 8>]
cheers
Dave
Man, that is slicker than greased gooseshit.
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Man, that is slicker than greased gooseshit.
[/quote]
Why, THANK you :D
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Nice.
Maybe there would be a way to make a battery pack from cells that would fit this or something like it?
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Nice.
Maybe there would be a way to make a battery pack from cells that would fit this or something like it?
Seems a lot of trouble to go to when the 5V lithium power banks work so well. For compactness just use good AAs and carry a spare set(?)
Dave
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Sure. But it would be great to come up with something to hold an external battery since probably all of us are using one.
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:clapping: nice work, that's totally kick ass
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Nice.
Maybe there would be a way to make a battery pack from cells that would fit this or something like it?
Seems a lot of trouble to go to when the 5V lithium power banks work so well. For compactness just use good AAs and carry a spare set(?)
Dave
With all the different 5V battery form factors - there has to be one that will fit in there! 6000mah is plenty for any one night show - opener+headliner
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Thanks for the comments guys :D
Sure. But it would be great to come up with something to hold an external battery since probably all of us are using one.
I'm not clear whether you mean an external battery pack or a 5V USB power bank/charger. To my mind one of the DR-70's big advantages is it's ability to run off of these 5V USB power banks, which have all the protection and regulation circuitry necessary for safe recharging of the lithium cells, and can recharge from any number of sources. To me, they're a no-brainer for this application. If you know where you want to put it, you can probably find one that'll fit (close enough), or adapt whatever it is. Having said that, I'm always trying to think of ways to make my gizmos work better, and fit together neater :D
Dave
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BTW, has anyone yet figured out what's up with the battery level indicator? I think Tom mentioned something about this glitch recently. With a freshly-charged set of AAs in my unit, turning it on, battery indicator show the AAs at only 2/3 full, if that. After switching to USB power and then back again, the indicator shows around 7/8 full(!) (NiMH batteries, indicator set to NiMH). Anyone else? (Sorry if I've missed a thread on this).
Dave
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BTW, has anyone yet figured out what's up with the battery level indicator? I think Tom mentioned something about this glitch recently. With a freshly-charged set of AAs in my unit, turning it on, battery indicator show the AAs at only 2/3 full, if that. After switching to USB power and then back again, the indicator shows around 7/8 full(!) (NiMH batteries, indicator set to NiMH). Anyone else? (Sorry if I've missed a thread on this).
Dave
Is there a menu setting to select between alkaline and rechargeable battery formulas? (don't have mine in front of me)
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BTW, has anyone yet figured out what's up with the battery level indicator? I think Tom mentioned something about this glitch recently. With a freshly-charged set of AAs in my unit, turning it on, battery indicator show the AAs at only 2/3 full, if that. After switching to USB power and then back again, the indicator shows around 7/8 full(!) (NiMH batteries, indicator set to NiMH). Anyone else? (Sorry if I've missed a thread on this).
Dave
Is there a menu setting to select between alkaline and rechargeable battery formulas? (don't have mine in front of me)
More or less--one setting is 'alkaline', the other is 'NiMH', if I recall correctly. Probably simply based on 1.2V per cell (NiMH) vs 1.5V (alkaline).
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BTW, has anyone yet figured out what's up with the battery level indicator? I think Tom mentioned something about this glitch recently. With a freshly-charged set of AAs in my unit, turning it on, battery indicator show the AAs at only 2/3 full, if that. After switching to USB power and then back again, the indicator shows around 7/8 full(!) (NiMH batteries, indicator set to NiMH). Anyone else? (Sorry if I've missed a thread on this).
Dave
Is there a menu setting to select between alkaline and rechargeable battery formulas? (don't have mine in front of me)
Check out the FAQ (link below). You can find this and other fun stuff under MENU > OTHERS.
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Nice.
Maybe there would be a way to make a battery pack from cells that would fit this or something like it?
You just reminded me... Awhile back I dismantled a cheap 6600mAh power bank to see if I could reconfigure the lithium cells into a more compatible (in this case, more elongated) shape. I thought if that part was possible, it might be worth removing the regulating PCB w/ connectors and reassembling and epoxying the whole thing into a new container. I didn't do it because in that particular case the cells weren't reconfigurable, but maybe the idea is worthwhile (Caution: try this ONLY if you sorta maybe know what the heck you're doing, etc etc, are extremely careful, and are wearing protective eyewear (seriously) :D
Dave
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Your gizmo is excellent!
It would be cool if there was a way to build it such as to create a cradle for a typical form-factor USB battery pack...
. . .but perhaps the battery holder could be a separate accessory, attached to the hotshoe assembly on top of the unit?
Does a single one of us plan on attaching the DR-70D onto a tripod, with a video camera on top? It sounds to me like we all have some standard screw-threads and sockets where we can mount things...
jus' sayin'!!?! >:D
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That is slick, Groovon. I'd like mine in black anodized, please :D
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A cradle/holder for an existing cell phone battery is most likely the safest and least hassle option. Seems like the actual cells can explode if mishandled and no one wants that.
Besides aluminum, polycarbonate could be used to make a cradle.
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That is slick, Groovon. I'd like mine in black anodized, please :D
Put me down for one too 8)
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Your gizmo is excellent!
It would be cool if there was a way to build it such as to create a cradle for a typical form-factor USB battery pack...
. . .but perhaps the battery holder could be a separate accessory, attached to the hotshoe assembly on top of the unit?
Does a single one of us plan on attaching the DR-70D onto a tripod, with a video camera on top? It sounds to me like we all have some standard screw-threads and sockets where we can mount things...
jus' sayin'!!?! >:D
Hey thanks.
IS there a typical USB battery form factor? I thought I was lucky just to find one with enough capacity, that has the switch and indicator facing the right way, works reliably, and doesn't look too bad. But it's easy enough to make allowance for different size and shape power banks. Gaffer tape is wonderful stuff :D
Re the 1/4" mounting, I took mine off as I like to keep the unit as slim as possible--I'd prefer the underneath clear, too, if I could. An increase in the front-to-back depth wouldn't bother me as much. I guess it all depends on how you're going to carry the thing and set it up for use.
PS--those pics with the DR-70 perched on top of a DSLR look kinda ludicrous! As small as it might be, it'll still tear the top off your camera if you bang it hard enough. People seem to have have no mechanical sense these days :(
Dave
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That is slick, Groovon. I'd like mine in black anodized, please :D
Put me down for one too 8)
Serious? Sure I could make 'em-- anodized, too. What's it worth? ;)
Dave
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Price sort of depends on features, what the market will bear, etc. A cradle accessory that also dispenses with the need for a $30 or more dollar protective bag means the cradle offers that value, too.
A battery cradle could be designed around some commonly used battery like the Ravpower Element, one of the Ankers, --some known reliable battery from a vendor that hopefully will keep making them a good while. I think this is where Sound Devices got it right when they picked the Sony L type battery for the 7xx series--long run times, reliability and long production runs. Some resourcefulness in picking the right battery would pay off.
I've always mounted my camera on top of my 60d and the 70d, and I don't knock them around any. But mostly I use the 60d for video stuff.
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Price sort of depends on features, what the market will bear, etc. A cradle accessory that also dispenses with the need for a $30 or more dollar protective bag means the cradle offers that value, too.
A battery cradle could be designed around some commonly used battery like the Ravpower Element, one of the Ankers, --some known reliable battery from a vendor that hopefully will keep making them a good while. I think this is where Sound Devices got it right when they picked the Sony L type battery for the 7xx series--long run times, reliability and long production runs. Some resourcefulness in picking the right battery would pay off.
I've always mounted my camera on top of my 60d and the 70d, and I don't knock them around any. But mostly I use the 60d for video stuff.
Some good ideas, thanks. I had thought of sliding brackets, or a series of holes to clamp various sized batteries. A list of various battery sizes would be handy.
(The recorder mounted under the camera is solid enough. It's perched on top of the camera in the flash shoe--which is only held by a single small screw--that seems silly.)
cheers
Dave
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I'd be interested too. I'd take it as-is. I would probably just gaff the battery just like you did. I'd want the XLR cable as well.
Keep us posted if you decide to make a batch of these...
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I'd be interested too. I'd take it as-is. I would probably just gaff the battery just like you did. I'd want the XLR cable as well.
Keep us posted if you decide to make a batch of these...
OK, I'll definitely consider it :D
Dave
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OK, I'll definitely consider it :D
And thus was born the mighty Groovon Industries Inc worldwide conglomerate... :)
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OK, I'll definitely consider it :D
And thus was born the mighty Groovon Industries Inc worldwide conglomerate... :)
Hey, don't laugh--I count at least four potential customers! And as everyone knows, tapers is where the big bucks are :D
Dave
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What if there was a 3-d printed polycarbonate battery pack case, custom for each battery pack form factor, but with a standardized clip attachment for the Groovon Industries Inc. DongleBracket®? Then the DongleBracket© could work with any pack, since we'll just design a proper 3-d printed case for each shape?
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Depends on the combined cost with shipping. Some would just go for the aluminum casing and still gaff tape their battery if the cost gets too high. That's why I suggested an all in one solution. If the xlr connection were moved to the bottom of the 70d, there would be plenty of room for an external battery pack in a cavity next to the xlr. Visualize it like there was a rectangular box under the 70d with a tray for a battery beside the xlr.
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What if there was a 3-d printed polycarbonate battery pack case, custom for each battery pack form factor, but with a standardized clip attachment for the Groovon Industries Inc. DongleBracket®? Then the DongleBracket© could work with any pack, since we'll just design a proper 3-d printed case for each shape?
Thanks for the ideas! Though maybe I should call it the Connector Relocating Adaptor Plate with Battery Universal Mounting (you figure out the acronyms) :D
Dave
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Depends on the combined cost with shipping. Some would just go for the aluminum casing and still gaff tape their battery if the cost gets too high. That's why I suggested an all in one solution. If the xlr connection were moved to the bottom of the 70d, there would be plenty of room for an external battery pack in a cavity next to the xlr. Visualize it like there was a rectangular box under the 70d with a tray for a battery beside the xlr.
Thanks for the input.
(edit) It would be good to know which external batteries people are using, and the dimensions. I'm looking for battery/power bank options that better fit the deck's profile--in fact I've got a couple of new power banks on the way that I might be able to recommend. I'll report back after I do some tests and measurements. I'm trying to retain the slim profile (inline XLRs and rear-mounted battery, or super-slim battery underneath) rather than put the 4th XLR underneath (which would almost double the unit's thickness). If you wanted, I could pre-drill the baseplate to allow different configurations, and make brackets for the various battery-mounting options once I have all the specs.
I did some pricing of materials/parts and labor based on making 10-20 units (as shown in the pics, w/ connectors and cable), and it comes to around $75 per unit, including shipping (US only). Lemme know if that's within the ballpark :D
cheers
Dave
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BTW, has anyone yet figured out what's up with the battery level indicator? I think Tom mentioned something about this glitch recently. With a freshly-charged set of AAs in my unit, turning it on, battery indicator show the AAs at only 2/3 full, if that. After switching to USB power and then back again, the indicator shows around 7/8 full(!) (NiMH batteries, indicator set to NiMH). Anyone else? (Sorry if I've missed a thread on this).
Dave
Yes, this is a known issue, and is fixed in V1.11 (released June 26)
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Yes, this is a known issue, and is fixed in V1.11 (released June 26)
Thanks for the update. Any chance you guys can update the specs page to denote the new gain ranges including the MID setting? Or share it here?
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Yes, this is a known issue, and is fixed in V1.11 (released June 26)
Thanks for the update. Any chance you guys can update the specs page to denote the new gain ranges including the MID setting? Or share it here?
The new firmware also corrects an issue where switching from external power to internal would reset all menu settings. I thought I was crazy when I saw this happen last week.
For the gain ranges, I'm curious to know how far off my own measurements / math are with the numbers I put into the FAQ:
1.01 Firmware 1.10 Firmware
LOW -21 to +11 dB -21 to +7 dB
MID N/A 0 to +22 dB
HIGH +21 to +51 dB +31 to +51 dB
HIGH+ +31 to +63 dB +43 to +63 dB
It's good to see that firmware updates have been coming in. Hopefully some of the items on our request list make it in eventually, but right now it looks like Tascam is bug-squashing (which is still great). It's debatable whether or not some of the issues we've found qualify as software bugs or just design choices.
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BTW, has anyone yet figured out what's up with the battery level indicator? I think Tom mentioned something about this glitch recently. With a freshly-charged set of AAs in my unit, turning it on, battery indicator show the AAs at only 2/3 full, if that. After switching to USB power and then back again, the indicator shows around 7/8 full(!) (NiMH batteries, indicator set to NiMH). Anyone else? (Sorry if I've missed a thread on this).
Dave
Yes, this is a known issue, and is fixed in V1.11 (released June 26)
Thanks very much Tom, I missed that till now. Will upload tonight.
Dave
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Add me to the list of potential buyers. I'd like one like the prototype, but in black if possible.
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Add me to the list of potential buyers. I'd like one like the prototype, but in black if possible.
I'm working on them. No promises yet, but I'll shoot for black anodized if possible.
(I'll also need to get some feedback re the quoted price being somewhere in the ballpark before I go much further.)
thanks
Dave
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I decided to pull the trigger and get the JWMod. Parts are on their way from Mouser right now, and then it all goes out to the shop for the work to be done. I'm getting my mod done by a surface-mount shop referred to me by another member. This shop does not want to be publicly named here, as they don't have time to do lots of these. Total price with parts, labor, and return shipping looks like it will be around $120 (not including shipping to the shop).
I emailed back and forth with Jim Williams and he gave permission for the specifics of his mod to be posted here since he's not selling it himself. Cheesecadet had posted some of the details way back in the discussion threads, but I'm thinking that it might be time to put this in the FAQ, along with links to the necessary parts. Thoughts? Objections?
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Post it. Would be great to see some before and after photos.
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Tascam updated the specs page (http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/specifications/) to include the MID setting:
LOW +21dB
MID +36dB
HIGH +51dB
HI+ +63dB
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Tascam updated the specs page (http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/specifications/) to include the MID setting:
LOW +21dB
MID +36dB
HIGH +51dB
HI+ +63dB
Thanks for the tip. My test files showed a gain range of 21dB for MID, HIGH, and HIGH+, and 28dB for LOW, but clearly my math was otherwise way off. For comparison's sake, the old firmware with only 3 ranges came up as a range of 32dB for all 3 ranges. I'll update the FAQ accordingly.
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Post it. Would be great to see some before and after photos.
Let's cut to the chase--how about a blind listening test: modified vs original? ;)
Dave
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Post it. Would be great to see some before and after photos.
I really don't want to crack open my unit, especially since I'm about to pay a professional to do that and don't want to risk breaking something in there first. The good news is I found some good photos Cheesecadet took of his.
Before:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=170230.msg2130655#msg2130655 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=170230.msg2130655#msg2130655)
After:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172109.msg2131985#msg2131985 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172109.msg2131985#msg2131985)
FAQ updated with all of this stuff.
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Post it. Would be great to see some before and after photos.
Let's cut to the chase--how about a blind listening test: modified vs original? ;)
Dave
I thought about it, but can't figure out a way to do it in a way that would make the conditions exactly the same in both recordings, and therefore such a test wouldn't be vaild. I don't think recording with my mics in front of my stereo is going to demonstrate anything real in terms of decreased noise performance. I suppose I could record myself playing piano before and after, but again there's going to be background noises (fridge running, clock ticking, etc.) All I can do for sure is test tones from my FP24 or silence / self-noise like I've posted about before. Anyone else have any ideas?
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Piano recording before and after is better than no recording.
You can always turn off the HVAC and fridge for a few minutes to record.
Any other 70d owners live near you?
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Post it. Would be great to see some before and after photos.
Let's cut to the chase--how about a blind listening test: modified vs original? ;)
Dave
I thought about it, but can't figure out a way to do it in a way that would make the conditions exactly the same in both recordings, and therefore such a test wouldn't be vaild. I don't think recording with my mics in front of my stereo is going to demonstrate anything real in terms of decreased noise performance. I suppose I could record myself playing piano before and after, but again there's going to be background noises (fridge running, clock ticking, etc.) All I can do for sure is test tones from my FP24 or silence / self-noise like I've posted about before. Anyone else have any ideas?
Why would it need to be perfect? Let it run on a source like a piano before and after and lets see if one sounds noticeably better to the masses. What is the harm?
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Let it run on a source like a piano before and after and lets see if one sounds noticeably better to the masses.
Define "better"....
Perhaps "more accurate" is what we should be looking for. And unless you were in the room in the first place listening with your own ears then hearing the recordings, then it would be impossible to judge. At the end of the day, you have to rely on bench tests as subjective comparisons tend to open up cans of worms. I don't think we're talking major differences here between before and after - the law of diminishing returns will apply (improving something that's already good into something that's even more good in subtle ways).
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Let it run on a source like a piano before and after and lets see if one sounds noticeably better to the masses.
Define "better"....
Perhaps "more accurate" is what we should be looking for. And unless you were in the room in the first place listening with your own ears then hearing the recordings, then it would be impossible to judge. At the end of the day, you have to rely on bench tests as subjective comparisons tend to open up cans of worms. I don't think we're talking major differences here between before and after - the law of diminishing returns will apply (improving something that's already good into something that's even more good in subtle ways).
That's kind of where I'm at - I don't think anyone is going to hear any significant difference before/after because I don't have a recording studio and the background noise here (appliances, traffic right outside, upstairs neighbors, etc.) will obscure any performance gains. Also, to record myself playing at level where the levels would be correct, I'd have to set the gain towards the middle / low end so as to not overload and I think the improvements of this mod are really going to show when levels are cranked with a quiet recording.
I agree that measurements are really the only way to make a before/after comparison, and as I've said many times I don't have that capability. What I can say is that if you look at the specs of the stock opamps and the ones used in the JW mod, there is already a big improvement on paper. What the poly caps do in terms of performance, I'm not really sure, but Cheesecadet had mentioned they helped HF extension.
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What's the problem with the stock pres? Noisy? Overly colored? I have been thinking about picking one of these up, but, if the stock pres aren't good, I'll pass...I seem to recall some posts saying they sound good?
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I have not seen anyone complaining about the stock pres on any of the boards that I frequent. And they sound fine to me - at least good enough for rock and roll. Someone using the DR-70 for classical music or ambient sound may have a different opinion, but I haven't yet seen it expressed.
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That has been my impression from the stuff I have read. I would like to give this a try, but I record a lot of quiet-ish jazz, so if the pres suck it's not worth it to me.
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That has been my impression from the stuff I have read. I would like to give this a try, but I record a lot of quiet-ish jazz, so if the pres suck it's not worth it to me.
The stock mic preamps definitely don't 'suck', or there would have been very little interest in the deck to begin with.
Dave
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Re 'audiophile' op amp swaps/upgrades, this article might be worth a read:
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.au/2011/08/op-amps-myths-facts.html
Dave
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The stock pres are totally fine at LOW, MID, and the lower half of HIGH. Once you get into the upper half of HIGH and anything at all in HIGH+ they're pretty noisy (actually extremely noisy at HIGH+). Most of what I record is classical instrumental and choral, and some of the choral recording is very quiet. If I recorded louder stuff all the time I probably wouldn't do the mod. Jim Williams has called the performance of his modded 70D a "poor man's Sound Devices" and I'm hoping for enough reduced noise that I can be one-box for quiet choral recording that needs lots of gain. Right now, nothing beats my FP24 in that department. While I don't expect the modded 70D to have the gobs of quiet gain the FP24 has, I would like to be able to go higher gain on 4 channels, at least through the HIGH range. I also don't expect HIGH+ to improve all that much, as when I asked Jim about it, he said when the gain is that high the input transformer noise will dominate.
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That has been my impression from the stuff I have read. I would like to give this a try, but I record a lot of quiet-ish jazz, so if the pres suck it's not worth it to me.
The stock mic preamps definitely don't 'suck', or there would have been very little interest in the deck to begin with.
Dave
I never said that they did. I was asking why the recorder's biggest fan felt the need to mod the pres, and what he perceived the faults to be.
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Re 'audiophile' op amp swaps/upgrades, this article might be worth a read:
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.au/2011/08/op-amps-myths-facts.html
Dave
His follow up with measurements is even more interesting.
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.au/search/label/op%20amps (http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.au/search/label/op%20amps)
I think the part of his discussion that's most on point is that you really need to know what you're doing, and don't go swapping parts willy-nilly. I'm going ahead with this because it's Jim Williams' design, and I know he doesn't do superfluous crap. He also isn't selling me anything, and I trust him when he says there's an improvement.
If you read through the article, it does mention that the NJM4580 is an inferior unit, and that's what the 70D uses for the EXT 1/2 input and the output stage. The NE5532A is the stock opamp for the 70D's XLR inputs. The JW mod replaces all of those opamps with LME49720MA.
I wonder if his conclusions would be any different if he were examining these in the context of a mic preamp vs. a headphone amp.
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That has been my impression from the stuff I have read. I would like to give this a try, but I record a lot of quiet-ish jazz, so if the pres suck it's not worth it to me.
The stock mic preamps definitely don't 'suck', or there would have been very little interest in the deck to begin with.
Dave
I never said that they did. I was asking why the recorder's biggest fan felt the need to mod the pres, and what he perceived the faults to be.
I don't think I'm the #1 fan here, I just happen to own one and maintain the FAQ thread. :P
My wanting to mod the unit should not dissuade anyone from getting one of these, I don't think. It's a great unit for the price, and like I said if I didn't primarily record choral music I'd leave it alone. Who knows? Maybe the mod will not do anything that I can hear and I'm wasting my money. But I like to tinker with things, and I'm not going to be able to afford a 788 anytime soon...
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http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172109.msg2132695#msg2132695
If this recording of Israel Nash is still there, listen and decide if the stock preamps are satisfactory.
Jim Williams whetted a few folks appetites when he described the 70d as a poor mans SD as mentioned. If Voltronic can spend $120 and potentially be satisfied recording classical material without forking over $1,900 for a used 744, why not try it?
As for the comp we were discussing, I would do a baseline recording of something repeatable before and after the mod.
I will be recording next week on a stage where the HVAC blows down on you and a huge HVAC return is at the back of the stage. People will be in the audience making noise. Such is the conditions most of us record in.
If recording your home piano doesn't do, there's probably a nice piano in the community or local church you could record if you asked nicely. A nice piano in a nice acoustic space...why not?
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That has been my impression from the stuff I have read. I would like to give this a try, but I record a lot of quiet-ish jazz, so if the pres suck it's not worth it to me.
The stock mic preamps definitely don't 'suck', or there would have been very little interest in the deck to begin with.
Dave
I never said that they did. I was asking why the recorder's biggest fan felt the need to mod the pres, and what he perceived the faults to be.
I don't think I'm the #1 fan here, I just happen to own one and maintain the FAQ thread. :P
My wanting to mod the unit should not dissuade anyone from getting one of these, I don't think. It's a great unit for the price, and like I said if I didn't primarily record choral music I'd leave it alone. Who knows? Maybe the mod will not do anything that I can hear and I'm wasting my money. But I like to tinker with things, and I'm not going to be able to afford a 788 anytime soon...
All fair enough. Any noticeable improvement would be well worth the effort, and esp. at that modest outlay. Hope you're pleased with it :D
Dave
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Let it run on a source like a piano before and after and lets see if one sounds noticeably better to the masses.
Define "better"....
Perhaps "more accurate" is what we should be looking for. And unless you were in the room in the first place listening with your own ears then hearing the recordings, then it would be impossible to judge. At the end of the day, you have to rely on bench tests as subjective comparisons tend to open up cans of worms. I don't think we're talking major differences here between before and after - the law of diminishing returns will apply (improving something that's already good into something that's even more good in subtle ways).
Better would be the one I like more. You can substitute any word you like, but in a blind listening test either one version will be preferred by a majority or not. 8)
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http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172109.msg2132695#msg2132695
If this recording of Israel Nash is still there, listen and decide if the stock preamps are satisfactory.
Still on my drive, download away...
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His follow up with measurements is even more interesting.
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.au/search/label/op%20amps (http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.au/search/label/op%20amps)
I think the part of his discussion that's most on point is that you really need to know what you're doing, and don't go swapping parts willy-nilly. I'm going ahead with this because it's Jim Williams' design, and I know he doesn't do superfluous crap. He also isn't selling me anything, and I trust him when he says there's an improvement.
If you read through the article, it does mention that the NJM4580 is an inferior unit, and that's what the 70D uses for the EXT 1/2 input and the output stage. The NE5532A is the stock opamp for the 70D's XLR inputs. The JW mod replaces all of those opamps with LME49720MA.
I wonder if his conclusions would be any different if he were examining these in the context of a mic preamp vs. a headphone amp.
I think that NwAvGuy would be disappointed that you want to do the mod after reading his blog! At least without any measurements...I don't know Williams, but I am kind of sceptical about the "poor man's SD". If he could actually take a $250 box and make it into an SD clone with less than $100 in parts, you would think he would be selling them. A lot of them. My guess is that he either doesn't really believe that himself or he doesn't think he can convince others to believe it. If the numbers are there, I would like to see them. By the way, it is kind of misleading to say that NwAvGuy said that NJM4580 is an inferior unit; he actually said, "the 4580 isn’t a bad part but, in my tests, it’s inferior to the NJM4556 in pretty much every way." So very much a qualified statement.
I also record a lot of quiet music, but, in practically any room with an audience, the ambient noise is higher than my recording chain's. It is extremely difficult for me to conceive of any setting for live concert recording in which the High+, or even High, would be necessary. Maybe with dynamic mics or very low output condensers, but otherwise that's a lot of gain...
I don't think I'm the #1 fan here, I just happen to own one and maintain the FAQ thread. :P
Maybe a little... ;)
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172109.msg2132695#msg2132695
If this recording of Israel Nash is still there, listen and decide if the stock preamps are satisfactory.
Listening to an isolated recording doesn't tell you much about the pres, I think. Unless they really suck.
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FWIW, Jim Williams is a well known and well regarded electronics designer who has been in business doing audio gear mods for quite some time, although I think he does less of it now. If memory serves, I believe he was involved with DBX early on and is responsible for some of their compressor and EQ products. He also designed and sold a series of mic preamps and did a fairly popular AKG microphone mod. I think he has enough on his plate that he can pick and choose what he wants to do and probably doesn't see DR70 mods as worth his time and trouble. He has posted more frequently over on GS.
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Yes, I know who he is by name (and I have a friend that runs some of his mics), but I know nothing about him as a person. None of which lessens my scepticism of the SD comparison...
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Here's Jim Williams' site - check out the client list: http://www.audioupgrades.com/default.htm (http://www.audioupgrades.com/default.htm)
He is the real #1 fan of this thing if you read his posts on GS. Maybe he's the one to ask why he wanted to mod it.
When he says "poor man's SD" I doubt he means it literally - that the upgraded performance is equal to SD 7-series; just that you're getting closer to that performance for a lower price. Again, I feel like this mod is a cheap enough risk that I can trust him based on his track record, and again the fact that he's not making money off it. With someone else that doesn't have that background, I wouldn't necessarily feel the same way.
I'm a bit surprised at the opposition to modding this deck, when many people here have other modded Marantz and Edirol decks from Oade and Busman. Those guys are doing the same kind of things to those units, and most of those decks are more expensive to start with than the 70D. Wouldn't you be equally skeptical of those upgrades?
I'm not discounting NwAvGuy's findings, but I'd be curious to hear from one of the builders on the board if everything he found is directly applicable to what we're talking about here. I'm not knowledgeable enough about electronics to judge that. Also, remember that the mod in question also includes the addition of 8 poly caps, so it's not just an opamp swap. Clearly those are important also, or they wouldn't be included.
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I have no opposition in principle to mod'ing a deck (in fact, I own an Oade recorder). There are some, the PMD660 being the poster child, that unquestionably benefited from an upgrade. My question is whether this one actually needs it or not. Would I actually have audibly better results? Would the numbers look better? I have no doubt Williams is sincere, but even audio gurus suffer from some pretty profound biases; maybe he thinks it is great solely because he did it. Who knows. For sure, I am not headed over to gs to read up on it (I hate the attitudes there), unless he has posted some comps or numbers...
Personally, I would hesitate to void the warranty on a recorder if I wasn't pretty sure it would result in an audible improvement.
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Jim Williams has been consistently favorable in his posts about the 70d. He mentioned that the mod is difficult because of the tight space in the 70d.
Charlie Daniels said a rich man goes to college and a poor man goes to work. There is obviously a difference in an SD and 70d. If you can't buy a SD, get a 70d, I suppose is one possible interpretation.
The 70d is $200 to $250. The mod may end up costing $150 with shipping. Not so long ago, people were paying more for less.
Given a budget of $400, what other recorder do you see as better?
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I have no opposition in principle to mod'ing a deck (in fact, I own an Oade recorder). There are some, the PMD660 being the poster child, that unquestionably benefited from an upgrade. My question is whether this one actually needs it or not. Would I actually have audibly better results? Would the numbers look better? I have no doubt Williams is sincere, but even audio gurus suffer from some pretty profound biases; maybe he thinks it is great solely because he did it. Who knows. For sure, I am not headed over to gs to read up on it (I hate the attitudes there), unless he has posted some comps or numbers...
Personally, I would hesitate to void the warranty on a recorder if I wasn't pretty sure it would result in an audible improvement.
Well, we're about to find out if it's audibly better I suppose. Cheesecadet said that he heard a definite improvement with his modded 70D, and you can consider me guinea pig #2.
Didn't you take a similar leap of faith modding your deck and voiding your warranty? Oade does not publish measurements on their modded units. I realize that they've been around a while though, so I suppose there's a certain amount of anecdotal evidence to support them.
Jim has not posted any measurements or comps on his unit, but as 2manyrocks says, he's consistently enthusiastic about it, even the stock un-modded unit.
The Remote board on GS doesn't have many bad attitudes there - most of them are very helpful. There is the occasional person who wants everyone to own $10k+ in equipment to get a good result, but they are few and far between on that board. I would try them again - I read there every day since there's so many people posting who record the stuff I record.
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I have no opposition in principle to mod'ing a deck (in fact, I own an Oade recorder). There are some, the PMD660 being the poster child, that unquestionably benefited from an upgrade. My question is whether this one actually needs it or not. Would I actually have audibly better results? Would the numbers look better? I have no doubt Williams is sincere, but even audio gurus suffer from some pretty profound biases; maybe he thinks it is great solely because he did it. Who knows. For sure, I am not headed over to gs to read up on it (I hate the attitudes there), unless he has posted some comps or numbers...
Personally, I would hesitate to void the warranty on a recorder if I wasn't pretty sure it would result in an audible improvement.
Well, we're about to find out if it's audibly better I suppose. Cheesecadet said that he heard a definite improvement with his modded 70D, and you can consider me guinea pig #2.
Didn't you take a similar leap of faith modding your deck and voiding your warranty? Oade does not publish measurements on their modded units. I realize that they've been around a while though, so I suppose there's a certain amount of anecdotal evidence to support them.
Jim has not posted any measurements or comps on his unit, but as 2manyrocks says, he's consistently enthusiastic about it, even the stock un-modded unit.
The Remote board on GS doesn't have many bad attitudes there - most of them are very helpful. There is the occasional person who wants everyone to own $10k+ in equipment to get a good result, but they are few and far between on that board. I would try them again - I read there every day since there's so many people posting who record the stuff I record.
I took it that the 'poor man's SD' comment could have referred to the the stock deck, as much as the modded one.
Personally I'm a hound for modifications if I can do them myself, but today's SMD's make me go crosseyed ;D There's nothing wrong with NE5534s (it's hard to imagine why Tascam didn't use them as output line drivers as well, as it's one of the things they're best at). However, the specs of the replacement opamps are superlative, and they're also said to be extremely stable. Adding film caps parallel to the DC-blocking electrolytics is standard practice, and 'arguably worthwhile'. So on paper at least, and for the modest price, your mod looks like a no-brainer.
The low price of a new deck makes it a natural for experiments and modifications, SO a new stock deck should be easy to afford and set up for blind comparison testing of the mods--right? ....just kidding :D
Dave
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Since people are asking, here are some samples of things I've recorded straight into the 70D's internal pres with a 4-mic setup of of my CM3s and XQs. Keep in mind that all of these tracks except the first one have had a trip through RX noise removal to reduce significant HVAC noise in the places I record. The self-noise of the 70D and/or the mics themselves may have been reduced along the way, but I was very judicious in my noise removal. The 70D was set to HIGH gain for all but the second example.
Civil War reenactment band (mid-hall, very boomy auditorium, no noise reduction):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/78ilmz5hozwzq62/Street%20Marches%20MIX.mp3?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/78ilmz5hozwzq62/Street%20Marches%20MIX.mp3?dl=0)
250-voice high school choir (balcony, large auditorium, LOW gain)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tieor1xjmk5dglg/03%20John%20the%20Revelator%20-%20phased%20array.flac?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/tieor1xjmk5dglg/03%20John%20the%20Revelator%20-%20phased%20array.flac?dl=0)
30-voice middle school girls' choir (conductor perspective, PA forward of mics, large concrete gym):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h4kuiu7bmgcs0oz/11.%20No%20One%20is%20Alone.mp3?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/h4kuiu7bmgcs0oz/11.%20No%20One%20is%20Alone.mp3?dl=0)
High school chamber string orchestra (conductor perspective, small auditorium):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/umfz94ge8bftuth/12.%20Chinese%20Folk%20Fantasy.mp3?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/umfz94ge8bftuth/12.%20Chinese%20Folk%20Fantasy.mp3?dl=0)
Piano / Orchestra / Choir (CM3s only, balcony, small auditorium):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ug41juoxunufgmc/Beethoven%20-%20Choral%20Fantasy.flac?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ug41juoxunufgmc/Beethoven%20-%20Choral%20Fantasy.flac?dl=0)
For comparison, here are a couple good recordings I've made with CM3 > FP24 > M10.
Trumpet quartet (36cm/90deg, mid-hall):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l0qgp3dh4rkhbq2/04%20Look%20For%20The%20Silver%20Lining.flac?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/l0qgp3dh4rkhbq2/04%20Look%20For%20The%20Silver%20Lining.flac?dl=0)
20-voice chamber choir (30cm/90deg, conductor perspective):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s3ktungnkdj145s/Chamber%20Choir%20-%20%20Ubi%20Caritas.flac?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/s3ktungnkdj145s/Chamber%20Choir%20-%20%20Ubi%20Caritas.flac?dl=0)
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Adding film caps parallel to the DC-blocking electrolytics is standard practice, and 'arguably worthwhile'.
What exactly does this do? Help prevent phantom current from leaking into the signal path?
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Adding film caps parallel to the DC-blocking electrolytics is standard practice, and 'arguably worthwhile'.
What exactly does this do? Help prevent phantom current from leaking into the signal path?
The caps block phantom DC, yes. And putting small, high quality film caps across the electrolytics is supposed to improve their ability to pass the audio signal unscathed, which electrolytics by themselves are (on paper, anyway) relatively poor at.
Dave
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Here are a few stage-lip samples of the recent Charlie Hunter show here. The mics (MG M20) were plugged directly into the DR-70D.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173495.msg2151103#msg2151103
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Here are a few stage-lip samples of the recent Charlie Hunter show here. The mics (MG M20) were plugged directly into the DR-70D.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173495.msg2151103#msg2151103
Great recording! Those Gefell's are really nice! What was being used with that jecklin?
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Great recording! Those Gefell's are really nice! What was being used with that jecklin?
Thanks! The jecklin setup belongs to member MIQ and had a pair of DPA 4060's. His full recording is on the LMA. Unfortunately, this was the show where I found out my 32GB card didn't play nicely and ended up with a bunch of digi-noise. Thankfully, Miq was there and pulled a really nice recording.
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Well, we're about to find out if it's audibly better I suppose. Cheesecadet said that he heard a definite improvement with his modded 70D, and you can consider me guinea pig #2.
We will if you do a decently controlled before/after comp! Really, it is very difficult to assess any audible changes by memory. Auditory memory is way too short, and confirmation bias is a bitch, and we're probably talking about fairly small differences around the edges of the deck's capabilities to begin with.
Didn't you take a similar leap of faith modding your deck and voiding your warranty? Oade does not publish measurements on their modded units. I realize that they've been around a while though, so I suppose there's a certain amount of anecdotal evidence to support them.
Absolutely, I did. Oade does have some sort of warranty policy, but, if I recall correctly, it is pretty limited. I actually had a factory version of that recorder, so I was able to do some primitive comparisons. The Oade version was ~ 4 or 5 dB quieter, but, for the rest, not any real difference that I could discern. I think, now, I would want to see some numbers and a good comp before I ponied up for a mod. To be honest, I think anyone selling them should provide these (although that's not the case here, I realize).
Jim has not posted any measurements or comps on his unit, but as 2manyrocks says, he's consistently enthusiastic about it, even the stock un-modded unit.
I took it that the 'poor man's SD' comment could have referred to the the stock deck, as much as the modded one.
I went over there and read his posts. He definitely is referring to the stock in one of them...
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Thanks! The jecklin setup belongs to member MIQ and had a pair of DPA 4060's. His full recording is on the LMA. Unfortunately, this was the show where I found out my 32GB card didn't play nicely and ended up with a bunch of digi-noise. Thankfully, Miq was there and pulled a really nice recording.
That sucks. It would have turned out great, from the sound of the samples. Love Charlie Hunter. He grew up where I went to college, so I used to see him all the time in various configurations. We both moved to NYC at around the same time, so I saw him there a bunch too. I always catch him when I can...
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I'm a bit surprised at the opposition to modding this deck, when many people here have other modded Marantz and Edirol decks from Oade and Busman.
I would defend to the death your right to mod the device if only with the aim of knowing - or believing - that you're getting the best possible result from it, whether that can be proven or not, and, whether it actually matters or not. After the mod, you may be totally convinced it's an improvement from subjective listening, but you'll never be able to hold that up as proof of an improvement. That's not to say that it won't be interesting to hear your opinion in due course.
Perhaps out of ignorance, I find it hard to believe that recording amplified loud music reveals very much about subtle differences between recording devices or mods thereto, apart perhaps from their ability cleanly to record the high SPLs involved! The sound would be more heavily influenced by the quality of the amplification of the instruments. (See also later comments re mics).
When it comes to classical music (my thing), as I've said before, I don't believe that there's a lot to be gained in reducing system noise level below a certain point. Quiet classical music should be reproduced quietly (otherwise, at the ear, the frequency response will be skewed and then it isn't a high fidelity reproduction of the original). So you shouldn't be turning up the replay level to the point where system noise is heard (unless you've seriously messed up the recording level at the outset or your recording device is really naff).
Nature recording is a different thing - sometimes you might want to reproduce ambiences at a natural level, so as with classical music, you shouldn't be turning up replay to the point where system noise is heard. But sometimes your intent is to make audible that which is too quiet or too far off clearly to be heard, and then system noise can be more of a factor.
As for frequency response, I would have thought that any half decent preamp in a recording device these days will have an essentially flat frequency response across the audible range. If a mod to the device adds (for instance) some kind of presence boost in the higher frequencies, while that might sound more sexy, it's no longer accurate. And you can fiddle with the response with eq in post production anyway. I rather suspect that if I posted some samples purporting to be from a 70D before and after a modification, and actually just added a slight HF emphasis to one set of samples actually coming from an unmodded device, most people would identify that as coming from the modded device, simply because it would "sound better".
At the end of the day, what makes the biggest difference in the recording chain is the mics and their placement. Before spending money on a mod it's worth considering whether it would be better to spend on better mics. Of course, if the cost of the mod is less than would buy an improvement elsewhere in the chain, go for it. Then save up for more costly, but probably more effective, improvements in the rest of the chain.
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had my first problem with a stock DR-70D.
Three glitches I've counted so far in the Cracker set... None longer than a moment, but all occur in all 4 channels, and don't occur on an AUD recording made with totally separate gear (DPA4061's > D50)
https://archive.org/details/Cracker2015-07-07
Guess I'll be checking to see if it was the Tascam or the SD card (ADATA 16GB SDHC, made in China, Class 6, ser# 1202470917, BL1120122026G, blue gradient sticker)
anyone else noticed anything like this? I was running CH 1-2 unbalanced from the SBD, CH 3-4 phantom directly to the Neumanns, and powering off a Ravpower USB pack, with AA's loaded. I used LOW gain mode for all 4 channels during Cracker.
There was also MAJOR trouble during the opening act, when I ran the mics at MID mode, and had to keep the level knobs VERY close to zero, making me nervous that I'd shut them off completely. Got a bunch of red flashing lights, and some minor "overlevel samples" but the glitches are far more troubling! EVERYTHING past 24:51 in both files is totally corrupted, with signals sounding like they're cutting in and out, or interleaved!? Very bad.
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had my first problem with a stock DR-70D.
Three glitches I've counted so far in the Cracker set... None longer than a moment, but all occur in all 4 channels, and don't occur on an AUD recording made with totally separate gear (DPA4061's > D50)
https://archive.org/details/Cracker2015-07-07 (https://archive.org/details/Cracker2015-07-07)
Guess I'll be checking to see if it was the Tascam or the SD card (ADATA 16GB SDHC, made in China, Class 6, ser# 1202470917, BL1120122026G, blue gradient sticker)
anyone else noticed anything like this? I was running CH 1-2 unbalanced from the SBD, CH 3-4 phantom directly to the Neumanns, and powering off a Ravpower USB pack, with AA's loaded. I used LOW gain mode for all 4 channels during Cracker.
There was also MAJOR trouble during the opening act, when I ran the mics at MID mode, and had to keep the level knobs VERY close to zero, making me nervous that I'd shut them off completely. Got a bunch of red flashing lights, and some minor "overlevel samples" but the glitches are far more troubling! EVERYTHING past 24:51 in both files is totally corrupted, with signals sounding like they're cutting in and out, or interleaved!? Very bad.
What bit rate and sampling rate where you recording at? class 6 is pretty slow nowadays
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What bit rate and sampling rate where you recording at? class 6 is pretty slow nowadays
24/48 as usual, but with 4 channels.
The ADATA card did poorly on SDSPEED testing, some sections did not make it to class 1 (1 MB/sec transfer rate)
back to ADATA it goes under the lifetime warranty.
I can no long recommend ADATA products, although their warranty replacement service is OK, I guess.
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My order from Mouser arrived yesterday with the opamps and caps. Since I plan to ship my unit out for modding tomorrow, I found a relatively quiet moment this morning to make a piano recording under conditions I can replicate very closely, at least as far as the recording goes. I'll try to match my playing as closely as I can when the 70D comes back.
If anyone wants to hear the "before" version now, I can certainly post it - otherwise I'll wait until there's a comparison to be made.
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Please wait and then post them so we can pick a favorite and then find out if it is the mod.
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I'll be running my Busman mod DR-70D this Wednesday at The Word / Wood Brothers in NYC, if anyone else has one and wants to compare.
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I meant to post this a while ago, but the JWmod lowered the noise floor 14dB :o
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I meant to post this a while ago, but the JWmod lowered the noise floor 14dB :o
How did you determine this number? I would love to see the test results. Thx
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It was a while ago and I forgot to post. I measured the self noise on LOW at full gain before and after the mod. Plugged the files into my DAW and saw the dB difference.
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I measured the self noise on LOW at full gain before and after the mod. Plugged the files into my DAW and saw the dB difference.
Using a 150 ohm dummy load, or just open circuit?
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I meant to post this a while ago, but the JWmod lowered the noise floor 14dB :o
Hi everyone. This is my first post on Taperssection.
14 dB sounds like a phenomenal improvement. Are you shure it's not some sort of error?
Best, SC
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I meant to post this a while ago, but the JWmod lowered the noise floor 14dB :o
Hi everyone. This is my first post on Taperssection.
14 dB sounds like a phenomenal improvement. Are you shure it's not some sort of error?
Best, SC
That is what I measured and a friend also measured the same amount when he evaluated it too.
I didn't do anything super scientific and don't even know what a dummy load is. I did exactly what I said in the first post. LOW gain setting at highest setting. No mics plugged in. Measured before and after mod. Loaded into DAW...resulting dB difference was 13.5 - 14 dB less noise floor. Take that FWIW.
Not sure what Busman's Mod or anyone else's mods do since they do not publish any types of specs.
Happy modding to you all...
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The input needs a 150-200 Ohm load to get a valid test result. And that's just for starters.
Dave
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I meant to post this a while ago, but the JWmod lowered the noise floor 14dB :o
Hi everyone. This is my first post on Taperssection.
14 dB sounds like a phenomenal improvement. Are you shure it's not some sort of error?
Best, SC
That is what I measured and a friend also measured the same amount when he evaluated it too.
I didn't do anything super scientific and don't even know what a dummy load is. I did exactly what I said in the first post. LOW gain setting at highest setting. No mics plugged in. Measured before and after mod. Loaded into DAW...resulting dB difference was 13.5 - 14 dB less noise floor. Take that FWIW.
Not sure what Busman's Mod or anyone else's mods do since they do not publish any types of specs.
Happy modding to you all...
That's the same thing I did, except I did it at all 3 gain levels (then 4 with the later firmware). Back when I first posted about they really noisy HIGH+ setting, I think Ozpeter may have mentioned the 150 ohm dummy load (which of course I do not have).
What I've since learned is that it's a measurement standard to have a 150 ohm resistor across pins 2 and 3 to load the circuit (as Dave just posted as I'm typing this). The thread below seems to indicate that it's really a bit more complicated than that. My takeaway is that such measurement is best left to people with the proper equipment and training:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekslutz-forum/598851-how-can-i-measure-ein.html (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekslutz-forum/598851-how-can-i-measure-ein.html)
EDIT: One significant thing mentioned in that thread is that running the open circuit is like have a huge resistor in there, and will be much noisier than a controlled, known load from a resistor or a mic. So basically what you and I have done here in "measuring" the input noise seems to be making things appear much worse than they actually are.
FWIW, when I did this I had the input set to MIC but with phantom off. I imagine if phantom was enabled things would be even worse. I know that these numbers aren't valid in terms of a true measurement, but the RMS levels of the files I recorded were:
LOW: -80.80 dB
MID: -75.56 dB
HIGH: -62.18 dB
HIGH+: -50.19 dB
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14db is A LOT!!!
Too much IMO - just on instinct.
If that was the case - then these preamps really SUCK!
I would expect a mod to improve noise - less than 6db - if that...
14db is from the "too good to be true" dept...c'mon!!! :-\
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14db is A LOT!!!
Too much IMO - just on instinct.
If that was the case - then these preamps really SUCK!
I would expect a mod to improve noise - less than 6db - if that...
14db is from the "too good to be true" dept...c'mon!!! :-\
What? You can't just make up numbers now?? ;D
Dave
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14db is A LOT!!!
Too much IMO - just on instinct.
If that was the case - then these preamps really SUCK!
I would expect a mod to improve noise - less than 6db - if that...
14db is from the "too good to be true" dept...c'mon!!! :-\
The stock pres definitely don't suck; they're just noisy at higher gain levels, which is to be expected at this price. Here's the samples I posted recently - decide for yourself: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172830.msg2151088#msg2151088 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172830.msg2151088#msg2151088)
14dB does seem like a lot, but I'll see what shows up with mine. I have no expectations of anything like that; I would be happy with any significant reduction in noise. Regardless, I wish someone with the capabilities would do a real set of measurements so we could all stop spinning our wheels here. I would even be willing to send my modded unit to one of our builders here on the board for testing if someone else does the same with a stock unit. Maybe the community would chip in and reimburse us for our costs? ;D
I'm trying to be accommodating with people asking me to make a before / after recording, but as I said before there's so many variables it's not going to be anywhere close to a valid test - just something interesting to listen to.
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From the published specs, the 70D has virtually no self noise. Certainly not a measurable 14db in stock condition. I find it difficult to believe that it would make much of a difference at all in self noise. In fact, it's certainly plausible that it would have more self noise after the mod (depending on the type of mod). The internal preamp is clean, quiet, and adequate for 95% of all uses.
I've run quite a few of my own comparisons with the quietest preamps known to man, Fred Forssell's SMP500's. (I own four of them plus a Grace 801- http://www.forsselltech.com/products/2/ ) and while I do get a somewhat better sound overall using the outboard preamps, the difference is negligible to minor. Especially when we are talking about the reduced dynamic range associated with loud concerts. If we are tracking acoustic music in a recording studio, then by all means it will make a larger difference to get your signal much hotter before recording it to the 70D, but without a digital input you are using the internal preamp of the 70D in either case. If you were using a colored preamp, like the Neve stuff...then the outboard would provide a bit of color to the signal. With the type of clean preamps (sax,v3) most tapers would put in front of the 70D, all they are really really doing is providing a louder signal to the built-in Tascam preamp, thus reducing the need for a higher gain setting.
I'm all for modding the units to get a better or sweeter sound, but I think it would be difficult to make them more than a db or two quieter.
I've heard quite a few of JW's mods and I'm just not a fan of ripping apart well designed gear to clean up the signal path just for the sake of a cleaner path. It can easily lose it's musical quality. I once had a 414 B-ULS that JW had "cleaned" up and it just sounded horrible to my ears. I sent it to him for him to check it out and fix what was wrong with it....it came back with a note that said working perfectly, sounds great. No charge for the check up. A few months later, I took it to a studio session where we doing some shootouts on different mics and everyone hated it. Ha! I put it on ebay and clearly stated it was a JW Mod and had just been checked out by JW himself and I also stated I wasn't a fan of the sound in the ad. People went crazy for it, final bid was like $850. The guy that bought it never tried to return it, so to each his own. I guess I'm not a fan of his work, though I do admire his style.
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I own a pair of mk6 capsules, a pair of mk22 capsules, a pair of kcy cables (one vark one nbob), and a busman modded tascam. I'll gladly run two identical m/s rigs if someone is willing to lend me another dr-70d...
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Compared cheesecadet modded deck to mine stock dr70.
That's a very short test. Obviously I don't know how actually quiet your room is, but the result could arise from a car passing in the next street at that moment. And if the mod has, perchance, made some difference to the gain structure, then maybe the playing field isn't level.
What we need to know about is not noise, but signal-to-noise. So some kind of signal has to be involved in the testing. One "amateur" method which I rather like is the "clock tick" test. In your quiet room, place the mic close to a ticking clock, so that the sound of the clock ticks makes the meters move at least a bit. Record machine A. Don't move the mic or clock. Record machine B with its meters showing ballpark similar levels. Now when you compare the two in your DAW you should be able to fiddle with the gain in the DAW so that you can see that the waveforms from the two recordings are peaking (on the ticks) to the same level. Now listen to the silence in between the ticks. You should be able to hear if there is an obvious difference, and you should be able to see it with spectral analysis.
Of course you can do a similar kind of thing with something which acts as a tone generator - there are mobile phone apps which can be used - and you align the recordings to the same level using the tone, then turn off the tone and record. I just like the clock method because it gives you an ongoing signal to give your ears a reference point.
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As for how much of a real-world problem the system noise is - if you have a quiet room with a hifi or TV in it, and you are familiar with the kind of level settings you use at a concert, record a bit of the hifi with those level settings, setting the hifi playback volume so that you get a typical level on the meters. (This might annoy your neighbours). Then stop the hifi playing and record a bit of room silence. Now play back the recording you've just made, with the playback level set like you'd normally have it. When you get to the 'silent' part, do you actually hear any system noise (in comparison to the music level you've just been playing)? Probably not.
Of course if you don't have a quiet playback room, then you can't do this test, but then again you probably shouldn't be worrying about system noise if you don't have a quiet playback room anyway...
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if you have a quiet room with a hifi or TV in it, and you are familiar with the kind of level settings you use at a concert, record a bit of the hifi with those level settings, setting the hifi playback volume so that you get a typical level on the meters. (This might annoy your neighbours). Then stop the hifi playing and record a bit of room silence. Now play back the recording you've just made, with the playback level set like you'd normally have it. When you get to the 'silent' part, do you actually hear any system noise (in comparison to the music level you've just been playing)? Probably not.
ozpeter this is what I did.
Have a playback system/room with walls treated acoustically with sound panels and bass traps. Outside walls have added insulation. Playing loud music is not a problem. Volume was around a 100 DB (have sound pressure meter) in room with ear plugs. Preamp has numbers so played it at the same volume number with same CD/song. The 10 seconds of noise I refereed to in the above post was the room noise, I turned off fans, AC unit for the test. The volume level was the same DB for the 10 seconds meaning both 10 seconds were a straight line in wavlab. No dip/peaks in them. The recording were not from the same moment though within 10 minutes of each other and nothing changed in the room except me changing the decks with same mics and position and volume level and song from the CD that I was using. Used wavlab to cut the silence out and used sound forge for the analysis since I think it produces better output numbers that are easy to read.
Though I do not remember if I actually heard any difference and not sure if my ear would be capable detecting that level of noise that is why I ran SF on those 10 seconds. If I have time still have those files I believe and could see if I hear a difference.
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Compared cheesecadet modded deck to mine stock dr70.
Of course you can do a similar kind of thing with something which acts as a tone generator - there are mobile phone apps which can be used - and you align the recordings to the same level using the tone, then turn off the tone and record. I just like the clock method because it gives you an ongoing signal to give your ears a reference point.
Can I use the tone generator from the dr-70 or SD mixpre-d?
If yes, how would I hook it up?
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had my first problem with a stock DR-70D.
Three glitches I've counted so far in the Cracker set... None longer than a moment, but all occur in all 4 channels, and don't occur on an AUD recording made with totally separate gear (DPA4061's > D50)
https://archive.org/details/Cracker2015-07-07
Guess I'll be checking to see if it was the Tascam or the SD card (ADATA 16GB SDHC, made in China, Class 6, ser# 1202470917, BL1120122026G, blue gradient sticker)
anyone else noticed anything like this? I was running CH 1-2 unbalanced from the SBD, CH 3-4 phantom directly to the Neumanns, and powering off a Ravpower USB pack, with AA's loaded. I used LOW gain mode for all 4 channels during Cracker.
There was also MAJOR trouble during the opening act, when I ran the mics at MID mode, and had to keep the level knobs VERY close to zero, making me nervous that I'd shut them off completely. Got a bunch of red flashing lights, and some minor "overlevel samples" but the glitches are far more troubling! EVERYTHING past 24:51 in both files is totally corrupted, with signals sounding like they're cutting in and out, or interleaved!? Very bad.
I had the exact problem that you had. I had the recorder on Mid for the first song and it was too hot so I turned it down too low and it shuts off or just sounds bad. I switched to Low during the 2nd song and everything sounds great until 30 minutes or so and then it get totally messed up cutting in and out. The first 30 minutes of the second set is great and then it turns to shit again. I noticed that I had the power saver mode factory set to 30 minutes so I changed that and I can't get it to screw up again testing it at home. I'm hoping that was my problem. I was using AKG's and Milabs and had phantom power on to all 4 channels.
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Can I use the tone generator from the dr-70 or SD mixpre-d?
If yes, how would I hook it up?
I was just thinking in terms of anything which produces an audible tone in the room at a fixed reproducible level, so you can be sure that the level you are recording at is identical each time you run the test (judged by the meters rather than by input level settings, as the mod might make a difference to the recorded level for any given knob position).
In any test of anything where the outcome is surprising, it's essential to ensure that there's nothing in the test procedure that could possibly have influenced the result (and that can be hard to achieve if you don't have a proper test facility of course). Having said that, if I'm reading your test procedure right, it should give a reasonably accurate result. If you were able to post the files it would enable the team to pore over them and see whether there might be any explanation apart from that the mod makes a surprising difference to the noise level.
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Here's an interesting article about measuring mic preamp noise:
http://www.ap.com/kb/show/331#output
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Alluded in an above post that I thought the DR70 mod lowered the noise floor -14 db. After more review realize I did not interpret the numbers from SF correctly. Used to wavlab stats and just acquired SF in last few months and not sure the fields in SF were what I thought they were. So think it is best to start over with a clean slate and let you guys make an interpretation. Sorry about the false data. Feel bad about that. Do not want to influence the community one way or another on something that is not FACT.
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Ran 3 more test with modded/non-modded deck this week. Non modded deck is 1.0 software of whatever number was installed in the stock unit. Modded deck has 1.11 version.
Side note: When gain pods are max on both units - the signal levels on the recorder are not the same. With low setting, gain pods at maximum gain there was about a ~4db difference between them and I let that go and did not attempt to adjust gains the same because I wanted the pods at max. Not sure if version 1.0 and version 1.11 have same gain values.
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Ran tascam on low setting, mic + phantom. Gain pods maximum gain.
3 tests I did:
a) clock
b) song
c) pillow - jon stoppable suggested putting mics in pillow and recording that.
Ozpeter suggested using a clock. Tried that and signal would not register on the recorders levels and recorded it anyway. Did not know how to run the tone generator test so did not attempt that.
Results:
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tASCAM dr70 MODDED PILLOW
Left Channel Right Channel
Cursor position (Time) 00:00:00.000 00:00:00.000
Sample value at cursor (dB) -Inf. -Inf.
Minimum sample position (Time) 00:00:11.923 00:00:11.923
Minimum sample value (dB) -52.262 -52.288
Maximum sample position (Time) 00:00:11.268 00:00:12.310
Maximum sample value (dB) -53.082 -51.279
RMS level (dB) -65.949 -65.125
Average value (dB) -90.309 -90.377
Zero crossings (Hz) 3,107.92 2,775.90
Maximum true peak sample position (Time) 00:00:11.923 00:00:12.310
Maximum true peak sample value (dB) -52.262 -51.279
Maximum filtered true peak sample position (Time) 00:00:11.923 00:00:12.310
Maximum filtered true peak sample value (dB) -52.262 -51.279
Integrated Loudness (LUFS) -68.50
Loudness Range (LU) 1.90
Maximum True Peak Loudness (dBTP) -51.28
Maximum Short-Term Loudness (LUFS) -67.57
Maximum Momentary Loudness (LUFS) -66.30
===========================================================
tASCAM dr70 NON-MODDED PILLOW
Left Channel Right Channel
Cursor position (Time) 00:00:00.000 00:00:00.000
Sample value at cursor (dB) -Inf. -Inf.
Minimum sample position (Time) 00:00:03.486 00:00:03.930
Minimum sample value (dB) -58.086 -54.186
Maximum sample position (Time) 00:00:00.661 00:00:04.227
Maximum sample value (dB) -58.855 -54.641
RMS level (dB) -72.812 -69.027
Average value (dB) -90.275 -90.275
Zero crossings (Hz) 7,563.09 4,808.02
Maximum true peak sample position (Time) 00:00:03.486 00:00:03.930
Maximum true peak sample value (dB) -58.086 -54.123
Maximum filtered true peak sample position (Time) 00:00:03.486 00:00:03.930
Maximum filtered true peak sample value (dB) -58.086 -54.123
Integrated Loudness (LUFS) -66.97
Loudness Range (LU) 2.10
Maximum True Peak Loudness (dBTP) -54.12
Maximum Short-Term Loudness (LUFS) -66.66
Maximum Momentary Loudness (LUFS) -64.63
===========================================================
tASCAM dr70 MODDED CLOCK
Left Channel Right Channel
Left Channel Right Channel
Cursor position (Time) 00:00:00.000 00:00:00.000
Sample value at cursor (dB) -Inf. -Inf.
Minimum sample position (Time) 00:00:07.524 00:00:06.637
Minimum sample value (dB) -45.472 -44.633
Maximum sample position (Time) 00:00:06.195 00:00:06.194
Maximum sample value (dB) -45.082 -44.568
RMS level (dB) -67.968 -66.125
Average value (dB) -90.377 -90.241
Zero crossings (Hz) 5,155.99 3,883.54
Maximum true peak sample position (Time) 00:00:06.195 00:00:06.194
Maximum true peak sample value (dB) -45.082 -44.568
Maximum filtered true peak sample position (Time) 00:00:06.195 00:00:06.194
Maximum filtered true peak sample value (dB) -45.082 -44.531
Integrated Loudness (LUFS) -64.55
Loudness Range (LU) 3.80
Maximum True Peak Loudness (dBTP) -44.57
Maximum Short-Term Loudness (LUFS) -62.13
Maximum Momentary Loudness (LUFS) -60.83
===========================================================
TASCAM dr70 NON-MODDED CLOCK
Cursor position (Time) 00:00:00.000 00:00:00.000
Sample value at cursor (dB) -Inf. -Inf.
Minimum sample position (Time) 00:00:17.638 00:00:06.320
Minimum sample value (dB) -50.874 -53.523
Maximum sample position (Time) 00:00:04.321 00:00:06.542
Maximum sample value (dB) -52.110 -52.320
RMS level (dB) -75.116 -74.267
Average value (dB) -90.309 -90.241
Zero crossings (Hz) 10,421.85 8,275.01
Maximum true peak sample position (Time) 00:00:17.638 00:00:06.542
Maximum true peak sample value (dB) -50.874 -52.320
Maximum filtered true peak sample position (Time) 00:00:17.638 00:00:06.542
Maximum filtered true peak sample value (dB) -50.874 -52.217
Integrated Loudness (LUFS) -69.49
Loudness Range (LU) 0.00
Maximum True Peak Loudness (dBTP) -50.87
Maximum Short-Term Loudness (LUFS) -70.36
Maximum Momentary Loudness (LUFS) -68.92
===========================================================
TASCAM dr70 MODDED SONG
Left Channel Right Channel
Cursor position (Time) 00:00:00.000 00:00:00.000
Sample value at cursor (dB) -Inf. -Inf.
Minimum sample position (Time) 00:03:07.083 00:02:25.609
Minimum sample value (dB) -5.693 -3.863
Maximum sample position (Time) 00:03:07.089 00:02:23.598
Maximum sample value (dB) -5.542 -4.673
RMS level (dB) -23.495 -21.933
Average value (dB) -90.309 -90.309
Zero crossings (Hz) 2,070.91 1,927.47
Maximum true peak sample position (Time) 00:03:07.089 00:02:25.609
Maximum true peak sample value (dB) -5.542 -3.863
Maximum filtered true peak sample position (Time) 00:03:07.089 00:02:25.609
Maximum filtered true peak sample value (dB) -5.525 -3.375
Integrated Loudness (LUFS) -19.93
Loudness Range (LU) 3.50
Maximum True Peak Loudness (dBTP) -3.86
Maximum Short-Term Loudness (LUFS) -17.71
Maximum Momentary Loudness (LUFS) -14.75
===========================================================
TASCAM dr70 NON-MODDED SONG
Left Channel Right Channel
Cursor position (Time) 00:00:00.000 00:00:00.000
Sample value at cursor (dB) -Inf. -Inf.
Minimum sample position (Time) 00:03:20.350 00:03:06.552
Minimum sample value (dB) -12.606 -9.713
Maximum sample position (Time) 00:01:55.616 00:03:06.545
Maximum sample value (dB) -12.286 -10.492
RMS level (dB) -29.664 -27.877
Average value (dB) -90.343 -90.309
Zero crossings (Hz) 2,551.06 2,298.48
Maximum true peak sample position (Time) 00:01:55.616 00:03:06.552
Maximum true peak sample value (dB) -12.286 -9.713
Maximum filtered true peak sample position (Time) 00:01:55.616 00:03:06.552
Maximum filtered true peak sample value (dB) -12.286 -9.713
Integrated Loudness (LUFS) -26.11
Loudness Range (LU) 3.10
Maximum True Peak Loudness (dBTP) -9.71
Maximum Short-Term Loudness (LUFS) -23.58
Maximum Momentary Loudness (LUFS) -20.87
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Do not have time to post the sound files this week. If there is interest and I have time next week then I would go forward with posting them.
Hope made the above clear.
Again sorry about the earlier error and that is not my MO usually.
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So for us lay people, what do those numbers show overall?
Is the mod really doing anything worth getting it done?
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Hi folks, since this concerns the DR-70d, I'd really love help with this: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173946.0
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Phil,
The maximum LOW setting between those two firmware versions is 10dB higher for the newer version. The newer firmware also added a MID level. See the FAQ thread.
Unfortunately, this means your test isn't valid. There are two solutions:
1. Do the tests again, but with both units set to HIGH or HIGH+. Those maximum values did not change with the update. Testing HIGH+ will probably only work with the pillow, and I wouldn't even bother as Jim told me the input transformer noise dominates that setting both before and after the mod.
2. Update to the latest firmware for both units and test as before. This is the best choice, as the lower limits of the gain pots and thus any settings along the way have changed with the update, meaning that right now you can not level match the two recorders for any setting other than maximums of HIGH and HIGH+. If you're going to do that, I would test the MID and HIGH settings as well, as those may better show the benefits (or not) of the mod.
EDIT: One more thing. I remember Cheesecadet saying on more than one occasion that he did not update the firmware of his modded unit. What you posted above shows that it is updated. Is it possible you labeled the units in reverse, or did you update the firmware on that one yourself?
If you're willing to, please post the recordings so we can also analyze with other software.
Sorry for the bad news. Again, we all appreciate you going through this trouble.
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Hi folks, since this concerns the DR-70d, I'd really love help with this: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173946.0
You linked to the FAQ. What's your question?
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Hi folks, since this concerns the DR-70d, I'd really love help with this: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173946.0
You linked to the FAQ. What's your question?
funny, that link takes *me* to the thread I started in the "ask the tapers" sub forum about some static on a recording that I hope is as a result of a faulty sd card and not the recorder.
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The way to assess noise level is to feed in a constant 1000Hz tone, set your levels to 0 db, and record 10 seconds of tone, pause the recorder, remove the tone and replace it with a 200 ohm metal film resistor and record 10 seconds of silence.
Then, open the file in a DAW, nomalize the tone to 0db, select a section of the silent part and open it in a spectrum analyser window, ( Audacity has a good one ).
You need to look at the noise levels between 1000 and 10000 Hz, you can do this in audacity by placing the cursor at the required frequency and and reading the noise level on the bottom line.
You can't assess noise levels using the level meter on your DAW, as there is always a lot of very low frequency junk around 10Hz, caused by the internal processor of the recorder, and the level meters will display that, and give a false reading.
Attached is a noise plot of my Tascam DR-40 with the gain set at full.
Audacity can also be used to generate the 1000 Hz tone, but if you are trying to compare two recorders, you will have to make sure that the amplitude of the tone remains exactly the same for both tests.
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Hi folks, since this concerns the DR-70d, I'd really love help with this: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173946.0
You linked to the FAQ. What's your question?
funny, that link takes *me* to the thread I started in the "ask the tapers" sub forum about some static on a recording that I hope is as a result of a faulty sd card and not the recorder.
Sorry, my mistake. I had multiple things open at once.
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I think there was another thread that I can't find now? Anyway, my comment is plug in the same mics to each recorder in the quietest room you can manage, and stick the mics between a couple of pillows. The pillows won't stop low frequency noise, but we don't care about that. Actually it is helpful, because you can use constant LF noise to calibrate gain on the two recorders (because it is either ambient or noise from the mic, which gives us a constant signal source). Record thirty seconds of silence on maximum gain with each, and post the files. I will analyze the noise signals and post my results.
Go look at the posts by Phil and me on page 24. He actually did the tests suggested by both you and Ozpeter. The problem is that the two recorders have different firmware versions that have different gain levels, so I suggested the test be repeated with matched firmware.
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All the above begs the question:
Does the mod make the firmware un-upgradable? - or - even if it works - will the upgrade results be unpredictable? (or not the same as an un-modded unit)
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All the above begs the question:
Does the mod make the firmware un-upgradable? - or - even if it works - will the upgrade results be unpredictable? (or not the same as an un-modded unit)
It certainly wouldn't prevent you from upgrading the firmware. That is only affecting the program to the DSP chip, and it isn't touched in the mod. It could theoretically affect things like gain levels though, as the software is written for the stock opamps. My unit had the latest firmware update when it went out for the mod.
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Thanks for that detailed description, Jon. That jives with the Audio Precision article posted here a few back. I'm thinking the only way we get a definite answer is we send modded and un-modded units to you for measurement. Maybe we all buy you a beer and then we can put this to bed. :P
I posted the details of Jim's mod on the 70D FAQ thread. Short version: besides the opamp swap, poly caps are added across the existing electrolytics. Nothing else is changed.
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Then gain cannot change from the mod. It must be because of the difference in firmware.
The poly caps are probably placebos, as Cyril Bateman's very careful measurements (published 10 years ago or so in Electronics World) show that parallel poly and polar electros don't reduce capacitor distortion very much at all, far less than using a nonpolar electro (or a full-sized poly, which is lowest). The problem being that there probably isn't room inside the case for nonpolar electros because they are slightly larger (or full-size poly, which are a lot larger).
A quieter opamp can improve EIN by reducing input stage noise if the rest of the circuit is designed in a manner to allow for an improvement. But that might only be realized at gain settings higher than would be used for condenser microphones, especially for amplified concert recording.
Hmm. Based on what I read in a few posts here, I was under the impression that even these smaller poly caps would help reduce phantom noise since they do that better than electrolytics. I will try to track down that article you mentioned.
FWIW, I only decided to go for this mod because I record almost 100% acoustic music, and other than marching band season, most of it is relatively quiet (choir, chamber groups) and/or very wide dynamic range (band, orch large choir). I would expect zero audible improvement with this or any such mod at low gain, recording amplified concerts.
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Jim referred to the stock electrolytics (that the mod adds the poly caps across) as "phantom blocking caps" which is what I was basing that assumption on, and that by adding more / better capacitance at those points, you're reducing the amount of phantom current that could leak into the signal path. I may have misinterpreted that statement though.
I will try to digest those two articles, though they may be over my head. Thanks again.
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Closing this one down folks.
Part 4 found here (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173960.0)