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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2006, 09:39:57 PM »
Plus BluRay players are still prohibitively expensive compared to HD-DVD players.

yeah, this is the real problem, and as i understand it, the exact same thing that did in betamax, right?  sony takes too long to get its product to the market despite it being superior and the other technology gets to mature, costs fall and prices start dropping.  An HD-DVD deck is half of the lowest priced bluray deck right now.  plus, sony's strategy of putting bluray in ps3 isn't working cause you can't even get a ps3 unless you are willing to pay double msrp.


Offline spott

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2006, 10:28:59 PM »
Porn killed Beta, will it happen to Sony again? For better or worse, it's all about porn.   ^-^

http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/05/02/pornhd/index.php?lsrc=mwrss


Offline Ed.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2006, 12:39:12 AM »
from everything I've read, HD-DVD is beating out bluray.

http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback158.html

In my opinion, I see bluray going the way of betamax, md, memorystick, and everything else propriety that sony makes.


Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

Offline Stagger

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2006, 01:35:53 PM »
From a manufactorer's and retailer's standpoint that just ain't happening. There is actually one more studio making titles in Blu-Ray than in HD-DVD. Right now Toshiba is selling all their players at a huge loss to get market share. They can't keep it up. THe cost of Blu-Ray will come down and universal players (think SACD &DVD-A) will be out in a while. If you could have the same title play in either machine, given the truths about the formats, what would you choose?
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Offline Ed.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2006, 02:10:46 PM »
From a manufactorer's and retailer's standpoint that just ain't happening. There is actually one more studio making titles in Blu-Ray than in HD-DVD. Right now Toshiba is selling all their players at a huge loss to get market share. They can't keep it up. THe cost of Blu-Ray will come down and universal players (think SACD &DVD-A) will be out in a while. If you could have the same title play in either machine, given the truths about the formats, what would you choose?

If I were going to pick right now, I'd go HD-DVD - partly because I plan on buying a 360 and I can get the player for $200.  If I were going to wait for a universal player, I'd still buy the HD-DVD disc because I despise Sony and all their propriety junk.

Personally, the only way I see either format surviving is if a universal player comes out that plays both.  If you ask me, both formats aren't going to go very far.  They're like the sacd/dvda of the video world.  Yes, its a step forward, but not a big enough one to draw in the consumer.  Especially with 1TB dvd's on the way and Chinese manufacturers making EVD's that offer 1080p on standard dvd's and players costing less than $100.

At the moment, the biggest appeal for the HD discs are from diehard av-ers or from video game enthusiasts that own either a 360 or a ps3.  I don't know of that many other people all that interested in either format, at least not yet.  I guess I see it from a consumer point of view.  And right now thats, I can buy a 360 and have a great gaming platform, and pay $200 more dollars and get HD-DVD....or I could wait another year and get a ps3 when those finally are common on store shelves.  At the moment I find it completely ludacris to buy a BD or HD-DVD standalone unit at their current prices.

However, right now the PS3 is floundering in every way possible.  People are losing interest by the lack of them on the market and all the problems that have came up in the couple of weeks since their release.  Looking at sales alone shows that 360 is outselling the ps3 hands down.  Normal consumers are buying the 360, normal consumers can't buy the ps3, so I'm guessing that normal consumers will go with HD-DVD addons for their 360 rather than buy a $1000 BD player, or wait for a ps3.

The only other advantage I know of that BD has over HD-DVD is the extra 25gb's of storage space per disc.  However, I could have sworn I read that the Telledega Nights BD only took up 7gb's of space and the same goes for many other titles taking up similar sizes.  If everything won't fit on one disc, put it on two - the same thing that manufacturers do today.  And who really cares about the bonus features anyway.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 02:13:11 PM by Ed. »


Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

Offline John Kelly

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2006, 02:15:30 PM »
From a manufactorer's and retailer's standpoint that just ain't happening.
It is according to every available article out there that I've come across.  I've yet to see *anything* that says BluRay is taking a lead.

There is actually one more studio making titles in Blu-Ray than in HD-DVD.
Maybe so, but there are still more titles out for HD-DVD than there are for BluRay.

Right now Toshiba is selling all their players at a huge loss to get market share. They can't keep it up.
Same thing goes for Sony and the PS3, which was supposed to be the BluRay player that took the format over the top. 

THe cost of Blu-Ray will come down and universal players (think SACD &DVD-A) will be out in a while.
Universal players wont be out anytime soon.  Sony refuses to issue BluRay licenses for universal players.

If you could have the same title play in either machine, given the truths about the formats, what would you choose?
In all honesty, HD-DVD hands down.  Fuck Sony.
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Offline BC

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2006, 02:20:31 PM »
Especially with 1TB dvd's on the way and Chinese manufacturers making EVD's that offer 1080p on standard dvd's and players costing less than $100.


wow, never knew about EVD. Looks pretty attractive, allows users to rip to HD with no hacking. Looks like a serious format war for optical video media is ensuing. IMHO these companies pushing diff. formats are just shooting themselves in the foot, having 2 diff (HD-DVD/BluRay, not considering all these other things too!) formats for video just makes me want to hold off on buying a new player.  :P

To me it is amazing that all these companines are pushing so hard for the next gen technology when SACD and DVD-a have not reached acceptance yet. I guess there is a lot at stake for the next video standard, whoever is left standing should reap some big time $$. Hope they are not gonna cripple themselves in the process though.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 02:23:17 PM by BC »
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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2006, 03:36:47 PM »
From a manufactorer's and retailer's standpoint that just ain't happening. There is actually one more studio making titles in Blu-Ray than in HD-DVD. Right now Toshiba is selling all their players at a huge loss to get market share. They can't keep it up. THe cost of Blu-Ray will come down and universal players (think SACD &DVD-A) will be out in a while. If you could have the same title play in either machine, given the truths about the formats, what would you choose?

josh, do you really think it matters all that much which studios have signed on to either technology?  it's not like they are archiving it in a form that wouldn't be relatively easily transferable to other format.  as i understand it, both hd-dvd and bluray support mpeg2 and mpeg4 compressions and both support the same advanced resolution audio formats.  so mastering a new bluray transfer from the material used to master a hd-dvd (or vice versa) shouldn't be that big of a deal.  all that said, i agree that bluray is a more elegant technology, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will win in the market.


At the moment, the biggest appeal for the HD discs are from diehard av-ers or from video game enthusiasts that own either a 360 or a ps3.  I don't know of that many other people all that interested in either format, at least not yet.  I guess I see it from a consumer point of view.  And right now thats, I can buy a 360 and have a great gaming platform, and pay $200 more dollars and get HD-DVD....or I could wait another year and get a ps3 when those finally are common on store shelves.  At the moment I find it completely ludacris to buy a BD or HD-DVD standalone unit at their current prices.


diehard av-ers are of course going to be the early adopters, i really question though whether video game console purchasers are going to make that big of a difference in the drive toward setting a standard.


wow, never knew about EVD. Looks pretty attractive, allows users to rip to HD with no hacking. Looks like a serious format war for optical video media is ensuing. IMHO these companies pushing diff. formats are just shooting themselves in the foot, having 2 diff (HD-DVD/BluRay, not considering all these other things too!) formats for video just makes me want to hold off on buying a new player.  :P

To me it is amazing that all these companines are pushing so hard for the next gen technology when SACD and DVD-a have not reached acceptance yet. I guess there is a lot at stake for the next video standard, whoever is left standing should reap some big time $$. Hope they are not gonna cripple themselves in the process though.


i think they consider sacd and dvd-a as a mature market.  i don't think the manufacturers believe that market is going to expand much beyond the classical and jazz recordings that seem to sell relatively well in the advanced res formats.  that's the niche market that seems to have developed.  however, there are so many more people in the US that have HDTV's and that market will continue to grow.  people will be able to see a difference in a HDDVD or bluray transfer versus upsampled dvd's.  and the market is far more mainstream, so i think it has a much higher chance of catching on.  plus, they've got the 1080p marketing buzz that they can work from to get people to buy these things.  talking about 1mhz DSD and 24/192 audio recordings went in people's ears and out the other as they were converting their cd collections to 128kbps MP3's to listen on ipods.  the movie market is different.  people actually see the difference in hd programming versus SD programming and may want the same for movies.  i'm not saying it's assured, but it's a much wider market to go after.

but in the end, the technological differences between bluray and hddvd are going to be lost on 99% of the customers out there, so long as they can see the better picture, they will go with whichever wins out.

Offline Stagger

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2006, 07:19:50 PM »
Damon pretty much said anything I could have except to say that if people remeber VHS vs. Beta the issue at hand was mostly that Beta had the tech advantage but they never got the backing of major film studios and there was little media available. Typially, what ever tech has more media available has an upper hand (unless it is tragicaly flawed....then again some people still use Mini-Disc). HD-DVD came out first so there are more titles. In order to do that you had a whole generation of machines with 1080i output. The public is learning the difference and it is easy to see in a showroom unlike SACD/DVD-A to the untrained ear.
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Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2006, 07:39:08 PM »
If you could have the same title play in either machine, given the truths about the formats, what would you choose?


What does that statement mean?

My understanding is that BlueRay vs HD-DVD is really only a matter of the container format and physical media.  I thought that both support the same video encoding formats: MPEG2, VC1 and MPEG4/AVC.   no?
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2006, 09:45:44 PM »
The public is learning the difference and it is easy to see in a showroom unlike SACD/DVD-A to the untrained ear.

If it were so easy there wouldn't be any argument.  The fact is the picture quality of both is damn near the same. 
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2006, 11:36:01 PM »
I don't think we are on the same wave length here. The reason why Blu-Ray is better isn't that it's top end picture is betteer it is that it can have more of it. I know that many feel extras on a DVD are worthless but how many times do people run out and buy an additional "Special Edition" copy with more features, bonus tracks, whatever. As techology grows all of these editions take up more space. You could have the full version of the extended cut of the Lord of the Rings movies on 3 Blu-Ray discs with full 1080p. You would not be able to do that on HD-DVD. We can go round and raound on this but I'm sitting there every day talking to my customers and listening to what they want and educating them on the choices they have. I get probably 2x the interest in Blu-Ray even with the new, cheep as shit, below cost 1080p HD-DVD players. Given alot of people are waiting for it to be cheeper but they aren't buying HD-DVD either. In thruth it will be at least a year till we really know anything and, as with SACD, if Blu-Ray doesn't take the lead you can bet that Sony will sell out rights to make universal players. Either side would do the latter to salvage what they can. Hell I remeber when the Linn Unidisk player first hit the market and Audiophiles (given the rare breed they/we are) were jumping at the chance to have just one player, and a damn pretty penny. Even still comparing video and audio formats is not realistic. The truth is that video doesn't handle compression nearly as well as audio and an Ipod like market shift in video is still kinda far off. The bandwith and storage (not to mention the average consumer's know how) isn't there yet. Its getting far closer every day but hard media is still alive and well in video. Really what is the upside in HD-DVD? It is currently cheeper and that will even out soon enough. Toshiba can't sell at a huge loss forever and Blu-Ray will become cheeper as they iron out the kinks. In a year or two the number of Blu-Ray titels will surpass HD-DVD (actualy though the porn argument is a good one as I did a bit of checking, for the purposes of this conversation I swear >:D and most porn studios are using HD-DVD) it is the reality that having more studios signed up brings. In the end it's all speculation.... I think I want a Wii  :P
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Offline Ed.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2006, 07:50:24 AM »
You could have the full version of the extended cut of the Lord of the Rings movies on 3 Blu-Ray discs with full 1080p.

To me, the size argument isn't that big of a deal.  Whats the difference between 3 discs, 4 discs, 5 discs?  They're both going to be 1080p.

If you ask me, the one that will survive is the one thats easiest to crack, copy, and burn.  The first one to make a sub $300 burner and $2-$5 media is gonna rule the market.


Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

Offline dmonterisi

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2006, 08:27:22 AM »
In thruth it will be at least a year till we really know anything and, as with SACD, if Blu-Ray doesn't take the lead you can bet that Sony will sell out rights to make universal players. Either side would do the latter to salvage what they can.

is it even possible to build a universal deck?  is it possible to have 2 different types of lasers built into the same transport or would they have to build 2 drawer models?  it sure would be nice is somebody came out with a nice bluray/hd-dvd/sacd/dvd-a/dvd/cd deck that incorporated the advanced res audio formats (or at least the ability to get them via firmware update as pioneer is supposedly doing with their bluray deck).


To me, the size argument isn't that big of a deal.  Whats the difference between 3 discs, 4 discs, 5 discs?  They're both going to be 1080p.

If you ask me, the one that will survive is the one thats easiest to crack, copy, and burn.  The first one to make a sub $300 burner and $2-$5 media is gonna rule the market.

well, i think the last thing you want to see publicly right now is one of the formats having their copy protection scheme cracked.  i'm sure it will happen at some point (and may have happened already but i haven't heard about it).  but you don't want to scare off the movie studios now.

Offline John Kelly

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2006, 09:08:20 AM »
In thruth it will be at least a year till we really know anything and, as with SACD, if Blu-Ray doesn't take the lead you can bet that Sony will sell out rights to make universal players. Either side would do the latter to salvage what they can.

is it even possible to build a universal deck?  is it possible to have 2 different types of lasers built into the same transport or would they have to build 2 drawer models?  it sure would be nice is somebody came out with a nice bluray/hd-dvd/sacd/dvd-a/dvd/cd deck that incorporated the advanced res audio formats (or at least the ability to get them via firmware update as pioneer is supposedly doing with their bluray deck).

Yes it is.  In fact, BluRay already does this - it has a red laser to play regular DVDs since the blue laser can't read them.


To me, the size argument isn't that big of a deal.  Whats the difference between 3 discs, 4 discs, 5 discs?  They're both going to be 1080p.

If you ask me, the one that will survive is the one thats easiest to crack, copy, and burn.  The first one to make a sub $300 burner and $2-$5 media is gonna rule the market.

well, i think the last thing you want to see publicly right now is one of the formats having their copy protection scheme cracked.  i'm sure it will happen at some point (and may have happened already but i haven't heard about it).  but you don't want to scare off the movie studios now.

DeCSS was out before DVDs hit the mainstream (I don't know how fast it was, but it was done before most stores even carried commercial DVDs) and that didn't stop the studios from supporting DVDs.  BluRay has a mechanism to prevent the cracking of their DRM, though - they can force player updates.  In fact, if you don't accept these updates your player will stop working.  Yet another reason to hope BluRay dies a quick, painful death.
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