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Author Topic: nOrh tube integrateds....any good?  (Read 3969 times)

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Offline som

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nOrh tube integrateds....any good?
« on: April 05, 2006, 01:00:48 PM »
I've been looking at possibly dipping my toe into the tube waters, and am looking for some cheap options. The nOrh se9 and se18 seem like some good possibilities. The se18 has a phono stage which is appealing, but it doesn't provide any gain, just the RIAA curve. They claim that is okay for moving magnet cartridges, but I am suspicious. Maybe an se9 with a Bellari phono preamp would be preferable.

Anyone have experience with these, or can recommend some other low-cost, entry-level tube integrateds?
AT ES943/C's > Church Audio ST-9100 > iRiver H100 (Rockboxed)

Offline Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan

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Re: nOrh tube integrateds....any good?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2006, 08:20:34 PM »
I've been looking at possibly dipping my toe into the tube waters, and am looking for some cheap options. The nOrh se9 and se18 seem like some good possibilities. The se18 has a phono stage which is appealing, but it doesn't provide any gain, just the RIAA curve. They claim that is okay for moving magnet cartridges, but I am suspicious. Maybe an se9 with a Bellari phono preamp would be preferable.

Anyone have experience with these, or can recommend some other low-cost, entry-level tube integrateds?

What type of speakers do you plan on driving?

Jolida and Antique Labs have some reasonably priced integrated amps on the market.
Maybe a couple of small scratches, but thats because these mics are chick magnets.
Girls always up on Andy tryin to grab these mics, the scratches are from their wedding rings.

CMC641 / DPA4022 / DPA4062>mod MPS6030
V3 / PMD671 / field ready DV-RA1000 / Oade W-mod PMD661 / PCM-M10

Offline som

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Re: nOrh tube integrateds....any good?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2006, 10:07:04 AM »
Currently I have Ascend Acoustic CBM-170's (91dB ) but am thinking of Odyssey Audio Epiphony's (86dB). They are less efficient, so I don't know if 9 watts will be adequate. I don't blast music very loud though.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2006, 06:12:58 PM by som »
AT ES943/C's > Church Audio ST-9100 > iRiver H100 (Rockboxed)

cshepherd

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Re: nOrh tube integrateds....any good?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2006, 05:27:45 PM »
Currently I have Ascend Acoustic CBM-170's (91dB ) but am thinking of Odyssey Audio Epiphony's (86dB). They are less sensitive, so I don't know if 9 watts will be adequate. I don't blast music very loud though.

I've been listening to the Almarro A205a SET amp (4.8 wpc) heavily for the last few weeks.  It's mainly been paired up with Neat's Motive 2 loudspeakers (86 db) while the Omega Super 3 XRS (93 db) single driver speakers burn in.  Basically, the 4.5 watts won't quite rock out with the Motive 2's, but everything else sounds pretty magnificient.  Almarro sells 88 db speakers to go with the 4.8w A205a.  I imagine 9 watts would sufficiently drive 86 db speakers, but I can't say definitively.  Possibly someone with more experience with SET amps could chime in on this.   

Chris

BobW

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Re: nOrh tube integrateds....any good?
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2006, 09:42:34 AM »
SE-9 and SE-18 are single-ended.

Build quality is marginal and variable, as in a transformer being used as a choke in the power supply (I personally hate that)
If you have a good one, keep it ! The chassis is heavy and the soldering quite good. Some components would not have been my choice. Amazing value, great shipping from Thailand, watch out for tech support in US, they have no local service depot to my knowledge.

I loved the soundstage on my SE-9, but felt that the hum should have been down another 10db on the analyser.
It was quite inaudible, however.
My very opinionated take on it is that the soundstage was great with the distortion nearly 3% because it wasn't powerful enough to drive my speakers. 
The bass was a bit weak and flubby.

Chicks dig bass, so I went to a JoLida 502B      :fish:          ;D

I don't regret trading up a bit.

I cannot comment on the SE-18 at all.
The lack of dealers/service in the states is my biggest issue. It costs nearly $100 to ship it back and forth to Thailand from NYC.

cshepherd

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Re: nOrh tube integrateds....any good?
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2006, 04:06:28 AM »
What kinds of music do you listen to?  SET amplifiers may not be the last word in bass on a hip-hop album, but they are capable of delivering realistic low end within many musical genres.  Smaller SET amps won't melt your face, but they make music on a level comparably priced transistor gear can't even approach.    If you decide to go the SET route, you should think about holding onto your speakers until you hear them on the new amp.   91 db speakers will work well with SET amps they and might buy you some time while you figure out your next move.

Chris

Check this thread out for a review on the Almarro A205a from 'ducati'.  Everybody who comes over to my house loves this little amp.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=57877.0

Offline som

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Re: nOrh tube integrateds....any good?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2006, 10:14:07 AM »
Thanks and T's for all of the replies.

I listen to modtly rock, but not anything to heavy. I like a lot of progressive rock (Yes, Tull, King Crimson), some "jammy" stuff (Widespread Panic, Grateful Dead), and a smorgasboard of other stuff (folk, jazz, some classical, classic rock). I listen to a lot of vinyl.

I hardly ever have the music up really loud. I currently have a NAD  C320BEE that rarely goes above the 10:00 position.

I have an HSU powered sub that I will probably keep....I've heard that a tube amp paired with a powered SS sub can give the best of both worlds.

AT ES943/C's > Church Audio ST-9100 > iRiver H100 (Rockboxed)

cshepherd

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Re: nOrh tube integrateds....any good?
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2006, 05:34:59 AM »
Most entry-level tube amps are not going to have a subwoofer output.  This means the speakers' signal will then be going through the sub's crossover network before going out to the speakers.  It all translates into more speaker cables and additional signal degradation.  With a low wattage SET amp, I would look to upgrade into an efficient full range speaker and sell the sub with your existing speakers.  The sub/sat setup would work, but that would be my upgrade recommendation for when you start looking at new speakers.  The benefits from eliminating the sub/crossover network (and the extra cables) would most likely outweigh the benefits of having a sub in the system.  I think with proper speakers, the sub wouldn't be necessary.  I'm listening to the Almarro A205a right now and it's barely on, yet it's still killing this KVHW stage recording. 

The Almarro is our first experience with SET amps, but we really impressed with it.  It's definitely more versatile than I thought it would be.  If you are interested in checking out tube amps, I really don't see any reason why you shouldn't.  SET amps are cheaper to maintain.  Not as many tubes as push-pull amps.  The Almarro has two EL-84's, one 12 ax7 and there's no bias adjustment necessary for the tubes.  Simple.  It also has a headphone output.

Hope this helps,
Chris

cshepherd

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Re: nOrh tube integrateds....any good?
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2006, 03:10:11 PM »
This is from the SET forum at Audio Asylum

WHY THE SET & HIGH EFFICIENCY SPEAKER APPROACH WORKS

MAY 2003
by Steve Deckert

On our audiophile forums, members have a moniker that usually includes a tag line. Mine say; “If the first watt sucks, why continue?” Having said that, this is not going to be another hard line attempt to convince you that SET amps are the only way to get good sound, or that high efficiency speakers automatically sound better than anything else.

Over the years I have learned that for every assumption about audio there are exceptions that could lead one to conclude the exact opposite. This “law” encompasses every facet of audio, from cartridges to loudspeakers and all the cables and components in between.

Most people for example have assumed that a 2 to 8 watt per channel SET amp wouldn’t have the balls to get out of it’s own way. It couldn’t possibly have any real bass, but we hear the midrange is to die for.

Most people would also assume the only way to hear any dynamics from a flea powered amplifier is to use big nasty horn speakers so really what is the point?

All of these assumptions are probably a side effect of the general direction that high-end audio has taken since the 1960’s. Solid state has made high power affordable for everyone so the loudspeaker industry responded by making speakers less efficient to both reduce their size and flatten their response.

Despite popular belief, you do not need horn speakers to use or enjoy a SET amplifier. You can also find many horn speaker designs that sound wonderful, better than wonderful in fact, so the question then becomes this:

What are the advantages are to using SET amps with high efficiency speakers?

To answer this, lets start with the advantages of a SET amplifier over any other type. A Single Ended Triode is the simplest circuit design there is, using the least number of parts. Typically this is a driver stage coupled to a single output device. Triodes do not require negative feedback, something found in most all push-pull circuits, solid state or tube. Negative feedback is used to lower distortion specs and in the case of solid state devices it is often the only thing keeping the transistors from exploding all over the inside of your amplifier. Feedback a problem? If you don’t mind the time smear it creates and the resulting 2 dimensional sound stage, then no I guess it’s probably not.

Aside from the amplifier’s superiority by simplicity, there is a more profound reason for using SET amplifiers. The magic predominately lies in the first watt. By magic I mean inner detail and most of the dynamics. For example, a pair of 96dB speakers playing with one watt of power against the average noise floor in your listening room (55dB) is 40 dB of dynamic range. (96 – 55 = 41 dB) Adding a second watt increases the dynamic range by only 3 dB. For every additional 3 dB you need to double your power. This should clearly illustrate that there is over 10 times the dynamic range in the first watt as there is in the second.

This brings us directly to loudspeakers. A typical loudspeaker today is 86 dB efficient with 1 watt. It also usually has a complex crossover that attempts to keep the frequency response and impedance flat. The crossover alone will usually dissipate a significant portion of the first watt as heat before it even reaches the drivers. To reach the same loudness level as the 96 dB speaker will with 1 watt requires over 8 watts on the 86dB speaker. If we used 2 watts on the 96 dB speaker the other would require 16 watts to keep up. If we used 4 watts on the 96 dB speaker the other would require 32 watts to keep up.

The problem here is resolution. If you can’t hit a listening level with the 1st watt, you’re not likely to hear what’s happening in that 1st watt. For a driver to achieve a high efficiency it’s moving parts must be low in mass. That makes it dramatically faster or more accurate than a speaker with heavier moving parts. If you like inner detail and want to hear all of the textures and layers of a good recording you need fast, efficient and coherent speakers.

A good SET amp combined with a single full range driver with no crossover or a simple 2-way using minimal crossover parts on the tweeter only, has a purity and depth that you simply don’t find in more conventional systems. It is a benchmark for coherency, and noted for its ability to create hauntingly real holographic sound stage. Bass and dynamics with this combination sound more realistic in part from the tremendous speed and in part from the coherency.

I’ve consulted many people about their audio systems, and the most common complaints include dry somewhat fatiguing sound with a fairly boring soundstage followed by the realization that it simply doesn’t connect you to the music emotionally like it could. Experience has taught me that by far the easiest way to get a liquid sound that becomes holographic with stunning clarity and detail, something that excites the listener, is to set him up with an SET and simple pair of efficient speakers. It also usually ends up being the least expensive solution.

The biggest conformation of this is reports from audiophiles who used to have several hundred watts and many thousands of dollars invested in show winning audio gear, but now report that even a good 2 watt SET on efficient speakers has better dynamics and weight which they find simply amazing. If you’ve ever observed how audiophiles rotate through audio gear during their lifetime you might also find it interesting that the ones who finally land on SET amps and good speakers seldom find anything they like better.

The bigger is better mentality that is directly connected to more expensive the better is certainly the handicap that stunts most audiophiles from discovering truly high fidelity sound. Will the guys at the audio salon laugh… yes the will. Will your fellow audiophiles laugh when they hear you sold everything and got a 2-watt amplifier… yes the will. Is this important to you? Only you can decide, but I would suggest it has little to do with high fidelity.

BobW

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Re: nOrh tube integrateds....any good?
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2006, 10:40:00 PM »
What kinds of music do you listen to?  SET amplifiers may not be the last word in bass on a hip-hop album, but they are capable of delivering realistic low end within many musical genres.

I just made the transistion from lower-powered amp to mid-power this year.
I listen to a good deal of classical and I definitely notice the difference on the low-end.
The bow attacks on the contrabass flubbered with the SE-9.

I agree that a techno or hip-hop listener would notice the bass loss more profoundly.
However, the loss is there on all program materiel.

FWIW, hip-hop has never emanated from my Missions.

Take Audio Asylum as it is. Many opinions, most unsubstasiated, some tainted by commerce and human nature.

Here's two of my crazy psycho-acoustic theories:

1) Harmonic distortion can enhance soundstage and placement. When it exceeds 1% to 2 % the soundstage will begin to transit forward.
2) Sixty hertz or one hundred and twenty hertz hum at low levels will cause a warmer perception than a presentation without hum.

Lastly, remember that all audio nuts are, well, nuts.    ;D   
But they are fun to hang around     :D

 

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