Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???  (Read 10372 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline yug du nord

  • ...til things never seen seem familiar…
  • Trade Count: (56)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5533
  • made with natural flavor
V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« on: August 25, 2007, 03:37:36 AM »
Anyone know if there is a difference between a Lunatec V2 preamp and a V3 preamp???  The V3 also has an A/D converter, but I'm just wondering about the preamp section of the V3.  Do both the V2 and V3 have the same preamp?  Anyone???
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

Offline used-to-tape-alot

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2007, 04:52:52 AM »
dammit don't back out now uncleyug  :)  (no big deal if you change your mind)

actually, I am very curious about this ? myself.

about the only thing I can say is that I believe they are both housed in the same sized aluminum closure.

Just checked the grace website L5.5" x W8.3" x H1.6" (volume =73.04)for the V2 and W8.25” x D5.5” x H1.7” for the V3 (volume=77.1375)

The volume of the V3 is 5.61% larger (rounding considerations on dimensions not taken into account).

The V2 has a decent amount of wires (i.e. less integrated circuits) very purtily arranged.

Perhaps we could get pics of the internals of a V2 and V3 (assuming internals didn't change much with serial #)


« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 05:44:02 AM by used-to-tape-alot »

Offline yug du nord

  • ...til things never seen seem familiar…
  • Trade Count: (56)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5533
  • made with natural flavor
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2007, 05:45:30 AM »
Hey used-to-tape-alot...  I sent ya a PM and an email... 

Good question...  same size box, but more features on the V3...  there must be a difference with something inside?  Analog components ain't small, so I wonder about the analog section of the V3...  how could it be the same as the V2???   ???
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

Offline yug du nord

  • ...til things never seen seem familiar…
  • Trade Count: (56)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5533
  • made with natural flavor
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2007, 05:48:06 AM »

Just checked the grace website L5.5" x W8.3" x H1.6" (volume =73.04)for the V2 and W8.25” x D5.5” x H1.7” for the V3 (volume=77.1375)

The volume of the V3 is 5.61% larger (rounding considerations on dimensions not taken into account).

The V2 has a decent amount of wires (i.e. less integrated circuits) very purtily arranged.

Perhaps we could get pics of the internals of a V2 and V3 (assuming internals didn't change much with serial #)

I think your on to something with that thought!!!
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

Offline used-to-tape-alot

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2007, 06:26:23 AM »
my V2 (serial#V061)is packed up and I don't have a digital camera otherwise I'd post a pic of it.  All I know is when I opened the lid to take a look inside I was quite impressed with what I saw.

Offline Weirdness

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • Gender: Male
  • ...driftin' and dreamin'...
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2007, 10:32:55 AM »
My understanding is that they are exactly the same in terms of the preamp portion.  A V3 is essentially a V2 with the addition of an A/D converter.  The V3 lacks RCA outputs which can come in handy if you want to run analog in to any given deck. 

Offline Wiggler

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1314
  • Gender: Male
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2007, 10:52:33 AM »
This is how Mike Grace describes the differences between the V2 and V3.

"I guess the word "identical" may be a bit strong here.  When we first
started development of the V3 the mic preamp circuit was "identical"
to the V2 with one exception:  Most of the components in the V3 are
surface mount rather than through hole.  This was necessary to
accommodate the additional converter circuitry.  Components that are
not changed to surface mount include the gain control switch,
metalized film coupling capacitors, conductive plastic trim
potentiometers, HPF filter switches and XLR connectors.
  As we began evaluating prototypes it became clear that the V2 style
trim control would not work in the V3 for practical reasons.  (with
the trim attenuator one could be clipping the preamplifier badly and
it would not be visible on the meters)  However, when the trim on
the V3 is set to 0 the circuit "topology" of the V3 is identical to
the V2 with it's trim set to 0.   ....so... If you looked at a
schematic representation of the both preamplifiers with their
respective trim controls set at 0 the two circuits would be
identical. (with the possible exception of the INA163, which shares
the same architecture as the INA103 but may have subtle differences
in its internal circuit topology.  Burr-Brown does not publish
detailed schematics of these devices.)
   It is instructive that Doug has heard a distinct difference
between the V2 and V3 because it points out how important the very
small details in circuit design can be.  How can two preamplifiers
that have the same circuitry sound different?  Here are a few
possible factors that I can think of:

Surface mount resistors have no leads.  They are soldered directly to
the pcb.  Through hole resistor leads have inductance and stray
capacitance which surface mount parts don't have.

Use of surface mount parts permits a "tighter" pcb layout with
shorter traces.  Again, less inductance and stray capacitance.
This translates to better transient response and a better ability for
the circuit to resolve complex harmonic structures and high
frequency wave forms.
Use of surface mount devices also lets us use a more contiguous ultra
low inductance ground plane on the bottom side of the pcb.
The circuit ground is THE foundation of any audio circuit and the
more solid it is the more performance potential the circuit will
have, especially in the upper registers.

I guess I have billed the V3's preamp as "identical" to the V2 for a
couple of reasons.  One is to try to explain that we did not
compromise the preamplifier circuitry so that we could add an AD
converter in the same box.  The other is that I did not want all of
our V2 customers to think that they were sitting on obsolete
equipment when, IMHO, it is still a state of the art preamplifier.
As a manufacturer it is very tricky to introduce a product that
replaces an existing one.  Especially if you don't necessarily want
to participate in a "throw away" society where "out with the old and
in with the new" is what sustains our economy.

Sorry if this is a jumbled bunch of rambling.
-Michael"

Offline PH

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 673
  • Gender: Male
  • can you fix it in the mix?
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2007, 12:04:51 PM »
The gain structure on the V2 is different than the V3, in the area of trim.

With the V2, you are negatively reducing the gain after having set it, and having an impact on your headroom by the amount that you've trimmed.

With the V3, you are positively adding gain when trimming, and you don't impact your headroom.

Well said Moke. Having owned both, I can say that I much prefer the V3 to the V2. The obvious reasons aside, the V3 always seemed to my ears to have a bit more fullness and prescence than the V2. I always percieved the V2 as having a slight dip in the middle freq range that the V3 does not. The V2 seems to have more of a hyped sound wheras the V3 is more well rounded.
I've started using the V3 on vocal tracks lately and have been loving the results. I bypass the AD stage and just use it a pre, saves me having to sync it with my other digital studio gear.

I liked what Grace said about the two units, but I think what he said if you read between the lines is that clearly, the V3 was intended to be an upgrade to the existing V2.

Offline used-to-tape-alot

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2007, 01:04:37 PM »
 "It is instructive that Doug has heard a distinct difference
between the V2 and V3 because it points out how important the very
small details in circuit design can be."

I take it this is Doug Oade?  I wonder what those differences in sound bw the two are in his opinion?  Is there one who's sound he prefers?  If you read this Doug, would love to hear your opinion. 

Is it possible that "Through hole resistor leads have inductance and stray
capacitance which surface mount parts don't have." (V2) translates into a "warmer sound" than the V3 (and no I would not describe the sound of the V2 as "warm" at all, rather I would describe it as "precise", or perhaps "crisp and clean".  Just used the term "warm" for lack of a better term to describe possible differences in sound bw the two.

and btw I am not trying to be biased here at all (bc I'm trying to sell my V2)  Good stuff.  Thanks Nashphil - not trying to discount your opinion - just curious by nature about this kinda stuff.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 01:18:24 PM by used-to-tape-alot »

Offline yug du nord

  • ...til things never seen seem familiar…
  • Trade Count: (56)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5533
  • made with natural flavor
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2007, 04:01:41 PM »
Nice info y'all!!! 
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

Offline rokpunk

  • WOULD HIT IT
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 9262
  • Gender: Male
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2007, 09:07:07 PM »
I've owned 'em both too, and I prefer the V3 for two simple reasons....the LED meters are MUCH better on the V3 and, like Moke explained, the addition of gain rather than the reduction of gain seems much more useful for field recording. Sonically they both sound great to my ears, and I don't prefer the sound of one over the other. Just as a price gauge, when I sold mine, both within the last 6 months, I sold the V2 for $750 and the V3 for $1000.
The new and improved taperssection.com....now with freedom of speech without the repercussion of -T's!



again, your showing your cluelessness.


Jah sitteth in Mount Zion
And rules all creation........

Offline yug du nord

  • ...til things never seen seem familiar…
  • Trade Count: (56)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5533
  • made with natural flavor
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2007, 11:38:54 PM »
Those LED's are pretty!!!
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

Offline Todd R

  • Over/Under on next gear purchase: 2 months
  • Trade Count: (29)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4901
  • Gender: Male
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2007, 12:20:45 PM »
Good to see this thread come up with a good discussion on the differences between the V2 and V3.  (Makes me wonder if a similar one ever came up when the V3 first came out -- too lazy to search though.  :P )

I never owned the V2, though I ran one several times.  Certainly not enough experience with it to really compare the sound of the V2 to the V3.  From everything Mike Grace has said though, I don't think there ever was an intention to "skimp" on the V3 preamp section to make room for the A/D section -- either in physical layout room or "room" needed to stay at a particular pricepoint.  As nashphil said -- if anything it seems the V3 was an improvement.

I know I really prefer the gain structure of the V3, both in terms of logistics in running it, and also for the sonic reasons.  Meaning the headroom issue noted, and also I believe the audio signal in the V2 is actually running straight through the trim resistor pot, whereas in the V3 the trim pot is used to set the gain on the instrumentation/op amp.  I could be wrong on that one though.

I've been finding it interesting to see the used sale price of V3 slowly decline while the used sale price of the V2 slowly increase.  Good overall to see the value of a well made preamp remain high -- excellent as a general trend.  In the particular case of the Grace Lunatec products, I don't see why there would be so little price difference between the V2 and V3.  Seems like there is very little value placed on a good A/D product.  Could well be the case I guess -- look at the excellent AD2k, aka the AD2402 (#?), I always thought it made a much better 24 bit converter than 16 bit converter, but now that we're in the 24bit world with recorders, it's used sales price has plummeted.  Go figure.

Anyway, rambling now, better go get some coffee to get focused. :)
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline Brian Skalinder

  • Complaint Dept.
  • Trade Count: (28)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 18868
  • Gender: Male
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2007, 01:36:19 PM »
I don't see why there would be so little price difference between the V2 and V3  <snip>  Seems like there is very little value placed on a good A/D product.

Three primary reasons, I think:

<1>  All-in-one devices.  As the all-in-one devices have gotten better and better, there's less desire to schlep around more gear when one may achieve 80-90% of the same sound quality in an all-in-one.  I know I've succumbed to this one, as I traded out my V3 > HD-P2 for a 722.  I still prefer the V3 pre/ADC sound, though.  Part of the reason for me was that for 4-ch recording, it was just too much stuff to schlep around.  I might very well go back to V3 > P2 if/when I decide to stick with strictly 2-ch recording again.  However, the fact that the V2 still sells like hotcakes goes against this theory, which takes me to my second thought...

<2>  "Conventional wisdom".  A few people have posted - and many others repeated, sometimes without even owning one - that the V3 ADC was "weak", "thin", etc.  I see it happening a lot around here.  Someone or some small group of people decide a piece of gear isn't right for their ears, and all of a sudden many others are touting how "no one likes X", or "most TSers prefer X", or "X sounds weak and thin and <insert negatively-toned adjective here", etc.  Of course, it happens in the reverse, too, with fluffing.

<3>  Taste.  'Course, it could just be that people prefer the sound of other ADCs over the V3.  It seems to me a lot of people like a bit of a "hyped" sound (very difficult to explain, so I won't bother trying), so it's no surprise the very natural sounding (to my ears) V3 isn't as popular.  As someone who thinks the V3 ADC sounds better than nearly every portable, affordable ADC I've heard (with the possible exception of the Mytek)...my final thought is:  there's no accounting for taste.  :P
Milab VM-44 Links > Fostex FR-2LE or
Naiant IPA (tinybox format) >
Roland R-05

Offline dean

  • Akustische u. Kino-Geräte!!!!
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • Posts: 9057
  • Gender: Male
  • The Dude abides...
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2007, 02:49:33 PM »
It seems to me a lot of people like a bit of a "hyped" sound (very difficult to explain, so I won't bother trying)...

I think you're saying, "not spitty," aren't you?    :P   ;)
Light weight: Sound Pro AT 831 or MBHO's > tinybox > D7 or Samson PM4's > Denecke PS-2 > D7
Slutty weight:  [MBHO MBP 603A + (KA100LK/KA200N/KA500HN)] and/or [AKG C 414 b xls (omni/sub-card/card/hyp/8)]  > Hi Ho Silver xlr's/other xlr's > Oade T & W Mod R-4 or UA-5 (BM2p+ mod.) or JB3 or D7

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/deanlambrecht

Offline PH

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 673
  • Gender: Male
  • can you fix it in the mix?
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2007, 03:18:04 PM »
I'll agree with Brian here. A few outspoken tapers decided that the V3 wasn't up to snuff and the rest of the bandwagon joined in.
You aren't going to find a better portable unit period.

I understand the all in one thing, but having actually used my ears before making a decision, I can honestly say the V3 has better overall sound than any of it's competition, such the 722, 744, R4, V2, etc...  That being said, nothing substitues for convenience and the all in one 4 trackers have *enough* quality to warrant leaving the V3 at home. So, I see why the trend is obviously headed that direction. I have an R4 and I usually leave the V3 at home so I can do a matrix. I'm happy *enough* with the pre's in that for most live applications.

I sold my V2 and immediately regretted it. The best 2 tracks I ever made were with the V2>AD2K combo that I ran for a few years. Lot's of gear, but the sweetest tones.

It would be cool to see Grace and Oade work together to create a badass 4 track machine with the best of both teams present.



Offline jerryfreak

  • No PZ
  • Trade Count: (31)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 6205
  • The plural of anecdote is not data
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2007, 02:46:16 AM »

I sold my V2 and immediately regretted it. The best 2 tracks I ever made were with the V2>AD2K combo that I ran for a few years. Lot's of gear, but the sweetest tones.


I cant speak for your v2, but your ad2k is getting put to good use and still making sweet sweet tapes!
Unable to post or PM due to arbitrary censorship of people the mod doesn't like. Please email me using the link in my profile if you need to connect

Offline eric.B

  • to the side qualified
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2796
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2007, 07:44:27 AM »
I can't compare the v2 vs. the v3 in terms of their preamps as I have never run a comparison myself, however I do own both units.  Im having a dilemma as to which of the two to get rid of to move up to a new recording device.  Whatcha thinK?   Will spdf bit buckets continue to be produced?  Will smaller (ala mt2496) bit buckets be produced in the future that are reliable and not quirky? Will smaller, viable line in, recorders get better?

My point is..  I like the grace preamps in both units (as to which is better I dont know) and I do like the v3 adc, but Im not going to keep the v3 if I can't buy a great *small* bit bucket that is 100% SEEMLESS in the future.( not withstanding the crazy priced sonosax units)   And Im not going to keep the v2 if it is thought that I cant buy a small seemless great line in machine.  Maybe the korg units are in my future, maybe the fr2 if indeed it sounds great as an all-in-one box with mods(or without) AND a superb line in feature.  The last sentence leads me to keeping the v2 then using it when I run a full rig, then running an all-in-one when I dont feel like carrying around the extra gear. 

I usually dont write posts like this whereas Im debating on what to do.. but this one has me stumped..
We have a system that increasingly taxes work and subsidizes nonwork.  ~Milton Friedman

Offline ts

  • Trade Count: (81)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3617
  • Gender: Male
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2007, 08:59:32 AM »
<The last sentence leads me to keeping the v2 then using it when I run a full rig, then running an all-in-one when I dont feel like carrying around the extra gear.>


I've kept my V3 for this reason only. I like to run a full rig outdoors and even indoors when space permits. That means carrying the V3 and full bodied mics, 13 foot stand, etc. It also allows for easily accomodating a few patchers who tend to show up in large numbers at bigger shows. But for small indoor shows or any fob situation, nothing beats a good all-in-one, 722 ;) and some actives.

Offline manitouman

  • Trade Count: (36)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2018
  • Gender: Female
  • Los Bulls!!!
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2009, 03:09:30 PM »
Very informative thread here and since I've been pondering which of the Lunatecs to get it has helped me a bunch.

So, if I understand this correctly: I can run mics>V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder. This would bypass the V3's analog to digital converter (ADC), correct?

On other occasions, I can run mics>V3>digital out>MTII s/pdif. Basically I would use the MTII as just a bit bucket, correct?

In the same above scenarios, if I was using the V2, I just would not have the option of "digital out", correct?

One more...In the V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder scenario: the 7XX would not be just a bit bucket it would actually still use it's own preamp & ADC? But because I'm also running the V3 preamp it is getting a different flavor than just mics>SD 7XX.

Okay, one more...Can I run: mics>V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder ~AND~ mics>the same V3>digital out>bit bucket (MTII in my case), at the same time? Is this what giving a patch would be like?

Last one...since the mics are running into the V3 first, do I supply the phantom power via the V3 or the SD 7XX? Just for confirmation purposes, I'm assuming the V3 supplys the phantom power to the mics.

Am I on the right track here? Thanks for the help. I've been itchin' to slut it up a little.  >:D
Mics: AKG CK31, CK32>LM 3> MPA III


Offline audBall

  • Trade Count: (37)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • Posts: 6467
  • Gender: Male
  • Feel brand new about it
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2009, 03:29:22 PM »
So, if I understand this correctly: I can run mics>V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder. This would bypass the V3's analog to digital converter (ADC), correct?
Correct

On other occasions, I can run mics>V3>digital out>MTII s/pdif. Basically I would use the MTII as just a bit bucket, correct?
Correct

In the same above scenarios, if I was using the V2, I just would not have the option of "digital out", correct?
Correct

One more...In the V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder scenario: the 7XX would not be just a bit bucket it would actually still use it's own preamp & ADC? But because I'm also running the V3 preamp it is getting a different flavor than just mics>SD 7XX.
I'm pretty sure you're running line-in and bypassing the preamp section of 7xx.

Okay, one more...Can I run: mics>V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder ~AND~ mics>the same V3>digital out>bit bucket (MTII in my case), at the same time? Is this what giving a patch would be like?
Yep.

Last one...since the mics are running into the V3 first, do I supply the phantom power via the V3 or the SD 7XX? Just for confirmation purposes, I'm assuming the V3 supplys the phantom power to the mics.
Only the V3's phantom power would need to be turned on. 

Am I on the right track here? Thanks for the help. I've been itchin' to slut it up a little.  >:D
Have fun!
mg m20.21.23 ■ akg ck61.62.63 »  nbob■naiant »  aercomp2 ■ v2-3 ■ sx-m2d2
dpa 4061 » mma-a.6000
d100 ■ r44ocm ■ f3

Offline JasonSobel

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3327
  • Gender: Male
    • My show list
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2009, 03:30:22 PM »
edit to add:
it looks like AudBall beat me to the reply, but I'll leave my answers here as well, for reference.


So, if I understand this correctly: I can run mics>V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder. This would bypass the V3's analog to digital converter (ADC), correct?

yes, running analog out of the V3 would bypass the V3's A/D converter.  In fact, you can actually turn off the V3's A/D converter and save some battery life (~1000mA draw with A/D vs ~700mA draw without the A/D).


On other occasions, I can run mics>V3>digital out>MTII s/pdif. Basically I would use the MTII as just a bit bucket, correct?

yes, the MTII would be just a "bit bucket" because all it would do is record the digital data from the S/PDIF stream.  the MTII would no t impart any sound of its own.

In the same above scenarios, if I was using the V2, I just would not have the option of "digital out", correct?

that is correct.  the V2 has no internal A/D and thus no digital output.

One more...In the V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder scenario: the 7XX would not be just a bit bucket it would actually still use it's own preamp & ADC? But because I'm also running the V3 preamp it is getting a different flavor than just mics>SD 7XX.

when you run V3 > analog out > SD 7xx, the 7xx would not be just a bit bucket, because you will be using the 7XX's A/D converter.  You can set the analog input to "line-in".  While I'm not 100% sure of the internal circuit path of the 7xx when you switch it to Line-in, the gain range will be -6dB to +18dB, which is much better when using an external pre-amp for gain.  (for reference, when using the 7xx analog input set to mic in, you have a choice in gain range either 20-70dB or 0-50dB, "normal" or "low", respectively.

Okay, one more...Can I run: mics>V3>analog out (XLR's)>SD 7XX recorder ~AND~ mics>the same V3>digital out>bit bucket (MTII in my case), at the same time? Is this what giving a patch would be like?

absolutely.  you can run both the analog and digital outputs from the V3 at the same time.  for giving out a patch, it depends on the situation.  if someone else has a 24 bit capable recorder, you can give them a patch right out of your 722.  the advantage with giving a patch out of the V3's digital output is that you could record V3 > analog > 7XX at whatever quality you want to (say 24 bit / 96 kHz as an example), and then you can independently set the V3's A/D to whatever quality you want, 16 bit, 24 bit, and whatever sample rate, completely independent from whatever you have the 7XX set to.



Last one...since the mics are running into the V3 first, do I supply the phantom power via the V3 or the SD 7XX? Just for confirmation purposes, I'm assuming the V3 supplys the phantom power to the mics.

the V3 will supply the phantom power.  it would be bad and could potentially damage the V3 if you turned on the 7XX's phantom power as well.

Offline audBall

  • Trade Count: (37)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • Posts: 6467
  • Gender: Male
  • Feel brand new about it
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2009, 03:31:33 PM »
 :P
mg m20.21.23 ■ akg ck61.62.63 »  nbob■naiant »  aercomp2 ■ v2-3 ■ sx-m2d2
dpa 4061 » mma-a.6000
d100 ■ r44ocm ■ f3

Offline manitouman

  • Trade Count: (36)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2018
  • Gender: Female
  • Los Bulls!!!
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2009, 07:14:11 PM »
Thanks for the great info!
Mics: AKG CK31, CK32>LM 3> MPA III


Offline Todd R

  • Over/Under on next gear purchase: 2 months
  • Trade Count: (29)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4901
  • Gender: Male
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2009, 10:14:04 PM »
Good deal on getting the V3!

BTW, the other thing to know is you can easily do a 4ch recording using the V3 clock with the rig you've got.  Run 2ch, say mics for example, into the V3 and then digital out to the MT to record these channels.  Then run another one of the V3's digital outputs (it has at least 1 coax/spdif and 2 AES/XLR digi outputs, plus an optical out if it is optimoded) and connect that to the 722.  At the same time, connect a second 2ch, say a board feed, into the analog XLR inputs of the 722.  In the 722 menu, select to choose "use analog inputs" or whatever it is (you have the option of choosing analog, choosing digital, or the default setting, which will default to the digi input if one is connected).

At this point, the 722 should show a "L" on the screen for lock and it will lock to the digital input of the V3, but instead of recording from that digital input it will use the analog XLRs for input while using the clock of the V3.  So now you've got 4 channels all clocked off the same V3 clock.  Makes making 4ch mixes a snap since both recorders use the same clock so they're perfectly in sync.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline SmokinJoe

  • Trade Count: (63)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4210
  • Gender: Male
  • "75 and sunny"... life is so much simpler.
    • uploads to archive.org
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2009, 10:14:50 PM »
The analog output on a V3 is HOT.  When the lights flash "zero", the analog output on the V3 is +25dBu, which is too hot for the input side of a lot of devices. For instance, a stock R4 doesn't want over +4dBu with the gain all the day down, so you wouldn't want to run the meters on the V3 hotter than -21.  My R4 has been modded by Busman and apparently his changes reduces sensitivity, and now stay below -12 on the V3 LEDs (in the green).  Some people have made 25db attenuator cables so the meters on the V3 and the R4 match, but to me the idea of adding gain in the preamp and then throwing it away in the attenuators doesn't make sense.  I presume the SD7xx boxes and AD2K will take a higher input.

I mention this because:
- I'm curious if the V2 is the same in this regard.  I'm guessing it is not the same, because a taper with many years experience came over to me last night and asked why I was running the V3 so cold and adding all the gain in the R4.  When he ran his V2 > DAP1 he always ran the V2 hot...  I explained to him about the V3 hot output and and the R4 was all the way down... he looked at me like I had 3 heads.  The point is, I'm guessing his V2 and my V3 are not the same in this regard.
- It has a profound effect in the case of "can I get a digi patch and and analog patch out at the same time?"... YES you can do it, but if you have your digi bit bucket humming along at -6, your analog box is pegged, or if you reduce the gain on your V3 so as not to overdrive the analog box then you digi box is running low... it's a compromise.
- That's how it looks to me.  If I'm missing something, please let me know.

Here http://www.archive.org/details/zt2009-01-23.akg483.flac16f is a show where set 1 is V3 > analog > r4, and set 2 is V3 > digi > R4.  The V3 A/D is more "crisp" than the R4 A/D, which isn't surprising.  Which is "better" is a matter of opinion.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 10:16:29 PM by SmokinJoe »
Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
Pres: V3 / ST9100
Decks: Oade Concert Mod R4Pro / R09 / R05
Photo: Nikon D700's, 2.8 Zooms, and Zeiss primes
Playback: Raspberry Pi > Modi2 Uber > Magni2 > HD650

Offline shaggy

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1928
    • dwonk
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2009, 10:35:11 PM »
A hell of alot of useful info here.  thanks Todd and Joe!

Offline pyiteac

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 103
  • Gender: Male
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2009, 04:55:37 AM »
Having owned both boxes, I can say that I like the gain on the V3 better that the V2.  It just makes more sense to trim up than down.  I think the analogue sound of the two is too close to make an insane comparison.  I personally like the sound of the V2 better but its close.
Mics: Schoeps MK4>KCY (with MK41/MK21/MK8's on call)
Pre:  Schoeps VMS02ib 
Interconnects:  Kimber Kable
Recorder:  Korg Mr-1

Offline JasonSobel

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3327
  • Gender: Male
    • My show list
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2009, 07:27:26 AM »
I presume the SD7xx boxes and AD2K will take a higher input.

I mention this because:
- I'm curious if the V2 is the same in this regard.  I'm guessing it is not the same, because a taper with many years experience came over to me last night and asked why I was running the V3 so cold and adding all the gain in the R4.  When he ran his V2 > DAP1 he always ran the V2 hot...  I explained to him about the V3 hot output and and the R4 was all the way down... he looked at me like I had 3 heads.  The point is, I'm guessing his V2 and my V3 are not the same in this regard.
- It has a profound effect in the case of "can I get a digi patch and and analog patch out at the same time?"... YES you can do it, but if you have your digi bit bucket humming along at -6, your analog box is pegged, or if you reduce the gain on your V3 so as not to overdrive the analog box then you digi box is running low... it's a compromise.
- That's how it looks to me.  If I'm missing something, please let me know.

regarding how "hot" the V3 output is relative to the V2 and what other devices can handle, here are a few thoughts...

yes, when the digital meters on the V3 read 0dBfs, the balanced analog outputs are at +25dBu.  and, as with most devices, the unbalanced output is 6dB lower, which puts it at +19 dBu.  While the V3 does not have a dedicated unbalanced analog output, it is easy enough to make a set of XLR > RCA cables.

the V2 analog outputs were actually a little hotter than the V3's analog outputs.  The V2's balanced analog output maxes out at +27dBu, and the unbalanced output on the V2 is +21dBu.  and the V2 has both XLR and RCA analog outputs.

regarding what other devices can handle.  The SD 7XX units, when running line in, can take a max signal of +26dBu.  but that is running line-in at -6dB, the min gain.  I think most people with SD units actually run line-in at 0dB (again, because it's better not to add gain to a signal just to attenuate it later).  at 0dB line-in, the 722 can handle a signal of +20dBu.  So if you are running analog and digital out of the V3, the V3's digital levels will be 5dB lower than the levels on the 7XX.  not too bad.  of course, you could also run the 7XX line-in at -5dB, and the digital levels on the V3 will match exactly the levels on the 7XX.  There is more info on that in this thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,80074.0.html
and based on that thread, there is this comparison of the V3's A/D vs the 722 A/D, levels matched exactly, both using the V3 pre-amp.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,81297.0.html

Joe also mentioned the DA-P1 and the AD2K.  the AD2K has a sensitivity switch on the front, and at most, can handle a signal of +24dBu.  because the V3's max output is +25dBu, and recording made directly from the digital output of the V3 will only be 1dB lower than the V3 > AD2K recording.  I'm not familiar with the input of the DA-P1, so I can't comment on the V2 > DA-P1 combo that Joe mentions...

Offline bhadella

  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1851
  • Gender: Male
  • Toiling away the day...
    • http://db.etree.org/bhadella1
Re: V2 vs. V3 pre amp ???
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2009, 08:06:13 AM »
I presume the SD7xx boxes and AD2K will take a higher input.

I mention this because:
- I'm curious if the V2 is the same in this regard.  I'm guessing it is not the same, because a taper with many years experience came over to me last night and asked why I was running the V3 so cold and adding all the gain in the R4.  When he ran his V2 > DAP1 he always ran the V2 hot...  I explained to him about the V3 hot output and and the R4 was all the way down... he looked at me like I had 3 heads.  The point is, I'm guessing his V2 and my V3 are not the same in this regard.
- It has a profound effect in the case of "can I get a digi patch and and analog patch out at the same time?"... YES you can do it, but if you have your digi bit bucket humming along at -6, your analog box is pegged, or if you reduce the gain on your V3 so as not to overdrive the analog box then you digi box is running low... it's a compromise.
- That's how it looks to me.  If I'm missing something, please let me know.



regarding how "hot" the V3 output is relative to the V2 and what other devices can handle, here are a few thoughts...

yes, when the digital meters on the V3 read 0dBfs, the balanced analog outputs are at +25dBu.  and, as with most devices, the unbalanced output is 6dB lower, which puts it at +19 dBu.  While the V3 does not have a dedicated unbalanced analog output, it is easy enough to make a set of XLR > RCA cables.

the V2 analog outputs were actually a little hotter than the V3's analog outputs.  The V2's balanced analog output maxes out at +27dBu, and the unbalanced output on the V2 is +21dBu.  and the V2 has both XLR and RCA analog outputs.

regarding what other devices can handle.  The SD 7XX units, when running line in, can take a max signal of +26dBu.  but that is running line-in at -6dB, the min gain.  I think most people with SD units actually run line-in at 0dB (again, because it's better not to add gain to a signal just to attenuate it later).  at 0dB line-in, the 722 can handle a signal of +20dBu.  So if you are running analog and digital out of the V3, the V3's digital levels will be 5dB lower than the levels on the 7XX.  not too bad.  of course, you could also run the 7XX line-in at -5dB, and the digital levels on the V3 will match exactly the levels on the 7XX.  There is more info on that in this thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,80074.0.html
and based on that thread, there is this comparison of the V3's A/D vs the 722 A/D, levels matched exactly, both using the V3 pre-amp.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,81297.0.html

Joe also mentioned the DA-P1 and the AD2K.  the AD2K has a sensitivity switch on the front, and at most, can handle a signal of +24dBu.  because the V3's max output is +25dBu, and recording made directly from the digital output of the V3 will only be 1dB lower than the V3 > AD2K recording.  I'm not familiar with the input of the DA-P1, so I can't comment on the V2 > DA-P1 combo that Joe mentions...

Same goes for the R44 as explained above in regards to the 722.  It will take the full V3 analog signal (up to the point of digital clipping on the V3's A/D output) without clipping.
"Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. "

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.116 seconds with 58 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF