Topic: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)

[Unitmonster]

For the first time I'm sorta contemplating the idea of moving to 2 separate rigs.  Basically where I've been living for the last several years, you don't need to be stealthy to run stealth.  Security is non-existant at 99% of shows and bringing a bigger deck like the FR-2LE in to a non-taping show isn't an issue at all.

With my upcoming move to somewhere that probably has a different security ethic, I'm a bit worried, so I'm thinking of possibly moving into a 2-rig setup (say AT943 with 1/8" mod>R09HR + my current rig, maybe eventually upgrading my "open" mics). 

However, I feel the same way I do about photography in this situation. i've got a DSLR camera, and often think I'd like a little point and shoot for spontaneous or low profile photo situations.  Then I think "what if this makes me lazy and I just start relying on my little camera and settling for lower-quality photos?", or "what if I get somewhere with my little camera and wish I'd brought the SLR?". So then I never end up buying a small camera.

For those who run 2 rigs, what are your thoughts?  Do you sometimes regret running the small rig? Do you find that you have one collecting dust in the closet? Are you satisfied with the different qualities of recording you get depending on the situation?

Sorry for being vague, but I'm just trying to weigh out the pros and cons.

thanks!

oh, and one more related question:  do you feel like I'd notice a big sound difference between my current setup and the 943>plug-in power setup I mentioned above?

[nameloc01]

I'm kind of curious as to what makes you believe that just because a certain setup is geared more towards stealthing that it automatically is sub-quality when compared to something that is considered an "open rig" ? Many,many people run the same mics open and stealth, same with preamps, same with recorders. To make such vague assumptions is quite a shortcut to thinking.
I would also say that attaining a quality stealth recording takes a GREAT deal of effort,energy and concentration...and is far from being "lazy". If anything, running a stand, not having to hold one piece of gear and being free to sit down in a chair,talk  and drink a beer is more along the "lazy" line ( not that I,myself, think it is lazy)
Its all about location.

[nameloc01]

Lastly, if you're that worried about quality, then you should run those 943s the correct way, and that's not with "plug in" power.

[Will_S]

Obviously, to assume a uniform correlation between size and quality, or cost and quality for that matter, is not appropriate.  There will always be some exceptions.

That said, overall it will cost more to make something sound better.  It will cost more to make something smaller.  Ergo, for the same price, one can ON AVERAGE buy something that sounds better, if compromises did not also have to be made to make it smaller.

As to the 943s on plug in power, depending on the music you will be recording, and the voltage of plug in power provided, distortion from too-high SPLs may be a concern.

Personally I can hear a distinct jump in quality between AT853s*  and a Studio Projects LSD2.  Obviously, the At853s are handy due to their small size, and sometimes the LSD2 is just too big.  Sometimes I will run the AT853s openly right next to the LSD2.  Differences are always clearly audible, though not night and day, and I always prefer the LSD2.

So my suggestion to you...if you want the best quality, invest in better mics to run with the FR2LE instead.  If you discover you must run stealth with a smaller recorder, for about $10 you can get a 4.7K style mod (maybe talk to Chris Church for the best value resistor to use for your particular setup) done to your AT853s.  In theory you might get 1-2 dB extra noise.  You will not be able to hear that over the ambient/crowd room noise on a stealth recording.

*(regardless of how they are powered, I ran mine off a 3 wire battery box [which is identical, from the mics' perspective, to the phantom adapters you use] for a while and switched to 4.7K mod for convenience with no audible drop in quality)

edits for formatting

Edit 2:  As to laziness/point-and-shoot, I don't think I've ever suffered from that.  Certainly for a show I really care about, my best equipment always comes along.  But there are shows where I only bring the mini-rig.  Honestly, I think those are shows I wouldn't have bothered to tape otherwise, or I wasn't confident that I could bring open gear in, didn't want to do all the legwork to clear things in advance, etc.  But maybe I'm just in denial.

[nameloc01]

I'm not trying to turn this into an issue...but there are reasons the AT mics are manufactured with XLRs on them. SP takes them off and terminates them together in a mini plug, basically, because for moderate level shows (as they are told) they will "work" with one of the litle **inexpensive** battery boxes. When people hear this, it is the path they take. Simple as that.
You get the absolute max SPL handling ability with 3 wire/ phantom.
Not saying "modding" them isn't close, because it is. But it is- as everyone likes to play here- **technically** not exactly the same performance, its not ** technically** the best way. Even if "best" is a marginal amount.
The "convenience" arguement is relative. The entire issue is based on $...or rather saving it. Getting the same **exact** performance as "X" that may cost a few hundred bucks" for only...like you said $10.00.
Only problem is, its not *exactly* the same.
Lowering the mics sensitivity so they won't clip...maintaining the same level of noise (thus increasing it on the tape)..
Or running 3 wire/phantom..not lowering the sensitivity,maintaining the same noise level and not having to worry at all about clipping.

- not having $$ in the equation...
Which one would you choose??

[Will_S]

I'm not trying to turn this into an issue...but there are reasons the AT mics are manufactured with XLRs on them.

Yes, there are.  The main one being, so they can be run into the phantom powered XLR inputs typically used on the mixers in the churches where AT853s are typically installed for their intended use as choir mics.  We've been over this before.  AT853s are in no way designed from the ground up as a phantom powered condenser.

Edit:  But the point is, the OP will get the most improvement in his tapes by getting new open mics to run with the FR2LE.  I think we are in agreement here (although we may disagree on which mics offer an improvement, or how significant it is.  Different ears, different playback systems, ... only the OP's tastes really matter here.)  That's why I recommend new mics first (and new BETTER mics, not a downgrade to stealthier 943s), and then suggest that once the OP has better mics, he may be happy to modify his mics (at trivial sonic penalty) for ultrastealthy use with just an R09-sized recorder, or sure, run them into a 3 wire BB and then a stealthy recorder.  That's (using a 3 wire BB) just more expensive and less stealthy is all.

[nameloc01]

Actually,the main reason being they will clip at moderate to high SPLs when not powered correctly. You are correct about them being "choir" mics, that's why they are made with 25' cables initailly.
 If the 2 wire wasn't incorrect/inadequate to begin with....the "mod" would have never came to be. There would have been no reason for it to exist.
As far as the poster..he needs to get (mics) whatever sounds good to his ears, regardless of what "kind" of mic they are considered to be or how much they cost.

[Will_S]

Actually,the main reason being they will clip at moderate to high SPLs when not powered correctly.

Disagree.  The mics will handle exactly equal SPLs using a 3 wire BB or phantom adapters, as you say.  So why do they ship with phantom adapters rather than a 3 wire BB?  Because AT designed them, and came up with the default bundle, to suit church installations and not tapers.

[Church-Audio]

I'm not trying to turn this into an issue...but there are reasons the AT mics are manufactured with XLRs on them. SP takes them off and terminates them together in a mini plug, basically, because for moderate level shows (as they are told) they will "work" with one of the litle **inexpensive** battery boxes. When people hear this, it is the path they take. Simple as that.
You get the absolute max SPL handling ability with 3 wire/ phantom.
Not saying "modding" them isn't close, because it is. But it is- as everyone likes to play here- **technically** not exactly the same performance, its not ** technically** the best way. Even if "best" is a marginal amount.
The "convenience" arguement is relative. The entire issue is based on $...or rather saving it. Getting the same **exact** performance as "X" that may cost a few hundred bucks" for only...like you said $10.00.
Only problem is, its not *exactly* the same.
Lowering the mics sensitivity so they won't clip...maintaining the same level of noise (thus increasing it on the tape)..
Or running 3 wire/phantom..not lowering the sensitivity,maintaining the same noise level and not having to worry at all about clipping.

- not having $$ in the equation...
Which one would you choose??

LOL Yeah it is the same and actually the performance of my 4.7k mod is actually better then three wire for any of the AT mics that operate on three wire. And if you can prove me wrong please do so. Here is just another example of how "google knowledge" is dangerous and misleading. I have sold 1000's of microphones with my mod in it and never had a complaint about overload. Not to mention the 100's of AT customers that have my mod that also can say now that the mics they have dont overload as easy as they once did. And Um yeah running the mics three wire does drop the sensitivity by 12 db my mod only drops it by 10db But go ahead and tell me I am wrong. Any of these methods three wire or my mod will drop the output of the mic over plain old 2 wire. That is a fact not fiction. Man you really should try and learn a few things about what your talking about before you go misleading people with your "google knowledge"


Chris

[nameloc01]

Who ships what?

the adaptors transition the XLRs and step down the voltage.
They also can be used with the 3wire boxes, custom or ATs modules.

I've found the max SPLs are with the modules, but the better sound is with the phantom box...as do a lot of other people.

Both of these methods are superior over 2 wire...they just aren't as inexpensive.
That's all it comes down to.

If all three of these methods were the same price....which one do you think the majority of people would use?

[Church-Audio]

Actually,the main reason being they will clip at moderate to high SPLs when not powered correctly. You are correct about them being "choir" mics, that's why they are made with 25' cables initailly.
 If the 2 wire wasn't incorrect/inadequate to begin with....the "mod" would have never came to be. There would have been no reason for it to exist.
As far as the poster..he needs to get (mics) whatever sounds good to his ears, regardless of what "kind" of mic they are considered to be or how much they cost.

The main problem is that you listen to people that actually dont really know what they are talking about and never did. I am not going to name names lol..

[nameloc01]

I wouldn't expect any other response from you than *your* way is best. *Your* method is superior to ATs on their own mics and when someone asks advice on a BB you ,right off the bat start "pitching" your mod instead of addressing the original question of a power box. The constant plugs and fluffing are getting old.
There are many people who disagree with you, although most of them dont/wont post here because of the bullshit. I,myself, really don't care.

And again, I'd say the same thing to SP, the "mod" is a less costly * inferior* (even only by a little) alternative.
If it wasn't about the $, you wouldn't even be selling them. Same with SP.

$$$$$$$$$

[nameloc01]

Funny,...actually if I was to "listen" to other "people"...
I'd send my mics to you, have them termintated together (incorrect) and have them "modified" to work off of a power source they weren't meant to run off of to begin with. lol
That makes sense.
But its not about the sense, its about the $.
Remind me to call AT monday and tell them that they are doing things all wrong.
 

[Will_S]

OK, let's explore your line of thinking a bit more nameloc01.

Let's assume, just for the sake of argument, that there is actually some tiny sonic improvement to using 3 wire power, either directly or via the phantom adapter.  As I mentioned earlier, it's obvious that since these are choir mics marketed to churches using mixers with phantom power and XLR inputs, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to sell choir mics with phantom adapters than with 3 wire battery boxes.  We can all agree here, no?

Now, why doesn't AT offer their mics with a stereo miniplug wiring configuration, either with or without a 4.7k style mod.  You seem to think that AT designs and markets their mic with the sole goal of maximum sound quality (again let's just assume they sound better 3 wire).  Obviously this is not the case, the design of the AT853s reflects all kinds of compromises between sound quality, size, convenience, and cost - otherwise they'd be AT4041s!  

And why should AT even consider offering a miniplug terminated version?  Tapers are an insignificant niche market for them, not worth the effort and expense of developing a second product line.  Further, even if AT did start selling directly to tapers, that means they can no longer count on big orders from SoundProfessionals, who buy AT's mics to make their own.  So selling directly to tapers wouldn't just be a trivial increase in AT's total sales, it would gain them close to zero sales (of course a few people who shy away from rebranded stuff like SP sells might be willing to buy from AT for name recognition alone - still pretty trivial and not worth the costs of developing a new line).

[Will_S]

If all three of these methods were the same price....which one do you think the majority of people would use?

Errrr...can't speak for everyone, but I gave away my 3 wire BB for free so I could run the 4.7K mod and have one less box and one less connection.  No regrets whatsoever.

[nameloc01]

What I said again is...

-The AT mics ran 3 wire/phantom are near impossible to clip at a concert. And according to many people sound better than 2 wire. But, let's not argue opinions.

-the AT mics ran 2 wire will clip somewhat easily at a moderate to loud concert.

- the 3 wire/phantom allows max SPLs without compromising the noise.

- the 2 wire modded lowers the sensitivity of the mics, but not the noise in relation to the sensitivity. Right? thus you could say the noise increases. Not too mention possible need of a preamp to regain the lost gain. Right?

All said and done..if $ was not an issue..meaning both methods were the exact same price.. Which one would most people choose?

Minus...the few who may be in fear of stealthing an additional box.
I'm also wondering if Mr.Church has to pay any taxes on these "thousands" of products he's selling here?

[nameloc01]

Like I said, there will be some people who are set on not carrying an extra box for whatever reason.
This obviously isn't gonna get anywhere, so I have to go watch The Browns get their asses handed to them now.

[Will_S]

Whatever, there are still some misstatements above but this has resulted in a long tangent from what the original poster asked.

For the OP, since you are considering ways to move to a stealthier setup:

I personally have run AT853s via:

 straight 2 wire - They do clip, although not as easily as some believe.  In 2 years (note: using a 9V battery box.  Using lower voltage PIP from a recorder's mic input may cause more problems) I had one recording badly clipped, but I try to avoid concerts that will inevitably damage my ears.

3 wire battery box - this did drop sensitivity considerably, I never measured it, but 10-12 dB sounds about right.  This means I had to add more gain via my recorder.  In theory this meant more noise, in reality the noise was usually buried in the ambient noise at moderately loud concerts.  Ironically, the only shows I could hear the noise on were the acoustic ones with very quiet, attentive audiences - the ones which never would have clipped before.

4.7k mod - sensitivity was very close to the 3 wire version.  Despite what some people claim many people hear, I heard no difference.

So again my advice is get some better open mics if you want better sound.  If you want a stealthier setup, don't bother with 943s, figure out a way to run the 853s with a smaller recorder.

Personally I very rarely stealth and I'm not "afraid" of an extra box, sometimes I just want to keep my setup as inobtrusive and uncluttered as possible.  Again, if you want to maximize sound quality, don't worry about how to power AT853s, get better mics.

Edit:  If you get a custom made 3-wire battery box or preamp with mini-XLR inputs and a miniplug output, you can run your AT853s (sans the adapter/XLR part) into a smaller recorder like an R09 when you need stealthy, and keep the phantom adapters for when you want to run the FR2LE.  A PS-2 modified to have a miniplug output, or with an adapter cable, will work too if you also use the adapters.  That's the way I'd go if you want to keep the AT853s as your main mics, both open and stealth.  And I didn't mean in any of my comments to imply I thought AT853s were bad mics - I love mine.  But you can do better.

[flipp]

For those who run 2 rigs, what are your thoughts?  Do you sometimes regret running the small rig? Do you find that you have one collecting dust in the closet? Are you satisfied with the different qualities of recording you get depending on the situation?

Sorry for being vague, but I'm just trying to weigh out the pros and cons.

Back to the original questions. I often run two rigs; FR2 and FR2LE with either Beyer 803 or Berliner CM33 mics. Still trying to figure out which combo I like best. I find it often depends on what room I'm recording in, where in that room I am and what type of music I'm recording. Just for stealth situations I bought a MicroTrack 24/96. I've been known to run it in addition to the two Fostex units. Of those three, all get used and don't gather dust, the D7s and JB3s collect dust along with various pre's I no longer use but can't  stand to part with, packrat that I am. I find the most noticable difference in recordings is more often due to location and configuration than equipment.

I sometimes regret running the small rig but only when I don't bring one of the other rigs and security/the artist are not a problem Sometimes you can't know that in advance so I just bring the tiny setup. Certain artists I know are stealth only and a couple of venues where I don't want to be seen carrying anything between the car and venue mandate that I bring only the small, easily concealed rig.

My advice is wait until after the move and you've had a chance to see the new venues and how tight security is before buying any other gear. You might find there is only minimal difference between your current situation and the one at your new location. If that's the case, perhaps upgrading your open rig would make more sense than getting a stealth rig. Once you know what the sitution is, then you can make a better informed decision on what, if anything, to change.

[dorrcoq]

I'm also wondering if Mr.Church has to pay any taxes on these "thousands" of products he's selling here?

So now you are accusing him of tax evasion?

[Sunday Driver]

oh, and one more related question:  do you feel like I'd notice a big sound difference between my current setup and the 943>plug-in power setup I mentioned above?

Yes, you will. I highly encourage you to keep your current rig as your "undercover" rig. The AT 943s would run fine on plug-in power (no mods), however I think many will agree with me that the 853s sound better. They sound smoother and have a better bass response. I only used my 943s once before purchasing U853 caps.

Now, in regards to the rest of this thread...that 4.7k modification works great! Whomever came up with it definitely knows their stuff. It does reduce distortion on AT 853 microphones when reproducing high SPLs. However, I still choose to use a Denecke PS-2 because I think it sounds slightly better. I also built a three wire battery box, but again, the PS-2 sounds better to my ears. I'm not even sure how to explain it in words [edit: except, not expect] to say that the entire sound is fuller and clearer. For example, I had definite issues running both mods when it came to loud sibilants at shows. Not that it matters though, really...just run whatever sounds best to you, what's the big deal?

[fmaderjr]

namloc01: I know at least 1 thing you don't know what you're talking about-taxes. It was a low blow anyway to question whether Chris Church pays taxes on his sales just because you & he are having a heated dispute. That's totally irrelevant to the argument. He does not have to pay US taxes because he does not have an office in the US and is not present in the US himself to do his selling. He obviously pays taxes in Canada because E-Bay has a record of most of his sales (not that I'm impying he'd avoid Canadian taxes even if he could).

Furthermore it was a another low blow to say he pushes his own products too hard. He mentions what he thinks is there benefits, but is very generous with advise to us tapers even if there is no money in it for him.

[Unitmonster]

 
Wasn't looking to stir the pot with questions on 4.7k mod vs. stock, just trying to gauge what peoples' impressions of 1/8" modded vs. stock XLR terminating versions of the AT was.  Thanks to those who replied.

As far as upgrading, yeah of course it's a balance between budget and performance, but to be honest I've been almost 100% happy with the results from my 853rx's since I bought them back in 2004. Would a pair of Schoeps have done a better job in those circumstances?  Probably, but on a number of occasions I've compared my recordings to others done with much pricier rigs and found that they matched up very favourably, and sometimes sounded better.

In the long term I'd love to have a small portable rig plus a 4-channel setup with a pair of Neumanns or DPAs, but I'm not in the position to make the most out of a 4-5k rig at this point in time.

It's a shame that there isn't a true "stealth" 24 bit recorder able to take xlr and provide 48v phantom. I liked my PMD660 for that but am glad I switched to 24 bit at the same time.

I guess for the moment I'll sit tight, see whether the FR-2LE causes me troubles at shows and make my decision based on that.  Would hate to feel like I'm taking a step back sound-wise to be more portable though.

Thanks!

[nameloc01]

You feel he doesn't push too much, I feel he does.

Look at the thread in the "mics" section I think it was, the thread was about BBs' and some issues this guy is having. *The problem as anyone can see is he's running 3 wire AT mics with a 2 wire BB and getting bad results. Now instead of merely and simple stating this
-his first comment was then to go with his "mod" on his mics. Not anything about running them the right way

It never ends.

I'm all for small business and everything, but there's a right way to do things.
And I'm not just targeting him per se, but people "pitching" gear or whatever should keep it in the proper forums.

And asking a question isn't a "low blow". Just a question.

And, the whole "mod" thing wasn't even brought up by me here, someone else brought it up right off the bat.

[OFOTD]

unitmonster -

Is there a set of mics that you feel would give you opportunities in both open and stealth.  Obviously the DPA 402x come to mind but may be out of your budget.  How about the Neumann KM100's or the Beyers with actives (are they out yet?) or what about the AKG 390's?

All of the above offer body detachable capsules so you can wear in a hat or use on a stand.   Once you have your mics settled then the rest seems pretty trivial.  Either you can plug straight into a FR2LE or you could run a PS2 or another pocketable small pre to use with your current recorder.

I think there is alot of overlap in stealth / open gear.  Just a matter of figuring out your budget and finding something that works in both situations.

[Unitmonster]

If you get a custom made 3-wire battery box or preamp with mini-XLR inputs and a miniplug output, you can run your AT853s (sans the adapter/XLR part) into a smaller recorder like an R09 when you need stealthy, and keep the phantom adapters for when you want to run the FR2LE.  A PS-2 modified to have a miniplug output, or with an adapter cable, will work too if you also use the adapters.  That's the way I'd go if you want to keep the AT853s as your main mics, both open and stealth.  And I didn't mean in any of my comments to imply I thought AT853s were bad mics - I love mine.  But you can do better.

This may be a good option. I don't like the idea of hacking my mics if I don't need to, and I've had good results with the PS-2 in the past. 853rx>PS2>R09HR might be small enough if I decide the FR-2LE is too big of a project in certain environments.  Probably only a 350-400 dollar investment as well.

unitmonster -

Is there a set of mics that you feel would give you opportunities in both open and stealth.  Obviously the DPA 402x come to mind but may be out of your budget.  How about the Neumann KM100's or the Beyers with actives (are they out yet?) or what about the AKG 390's?

All of the above offer body detachable capsules so you can wear in a hat or use on a stand.   Once you have your mics settled then the rest seems pretty trivial.  Either you can plug straight into a FR2LE or you could run a PS2 or another pocketable small pre to use with your current recorder.

I think there is alot of overlap in stealth / open gear.  Just a matter of figuring out your budget and finding something that works in both situations.

The beyer930s do sound good, but actives don't exist yet.  DPAs 402x are favorites of mine but too pricey.  I also might miss the switchable caps wtih either of those options. Not the biggest fan of AKGs unfortunately. I do think that if I upgrade my mics it'll be to something that can do double duty (open/stealth), but it's tough to think through what full setup will suit me best. Guess I'll hold off for a while longer and see what the budget's going to look like with my new job and maybe that'll shed some light on the issue!

[OFOTD]

Those were just a few examples of active systems.  Far from a complete list but some of just what rolled off my head at the moment.

Good luck in your search for a dual rig.  Looking forward to what you finally decide.

[jeromejello]

i almost dont know if posting in this train derailment will be help to the op or not...

i have the at853a's and have run them with 2 wire / 3 wire battery boxes and p48 (using the at8533 adapters into a ps-2, mp-2, & ua-5).  i have always felt that the best performance i got was using the mp-2 and ua-5 because i was getting the max amount of power to the mics (9v) with a pre to add gain.  I use the at853's for stealth primarily now due to their size, but i have used them in open situations with great success as well.

i grabbed a second set of mics (and a third and fourth) because i wanted to have more options available to me.  That said, i was picky when i got my first open set (akg 460s) becasue i felt the at853 so versitle and sounded so nice that i wanted something that would be a noticable jump in the quality and sound of my recordings.  would i have gotten a pair of 390s or c4s or avatone ck1s? not to my ears, since i felt the price jump (or just buying it in general) was not a decent enough trade off for what i already had.  (note to members who have these mics... that is my opinion - not bashing your gear).

There are plenty of options available if you wanted to run an open rig... my suggestion is to find something that gives you a noticible upgrade to sound since you are already rocking a nice set of mics.

fwiw, i wouldn't ever think of modding my at853s with that resistor stuff.  i have never had an issue with these mics other than operator error in all sorts of powering and concert situations, so i really dont understand why everyone is all excited about it.  imho, a nice preamp is a better investment... and you can always use it with another set of mics.

[Liquid Drum]

As I've said before, I run my AT mics with the 4.7 mod and they can handle anything. Ok, so you lose 10db of sensitivty but I get that back using the CA-9100 pre. From what I can tell/read up on, there is no sound quality difference between phantom/3wire BB and 4.7 mod on AT mics.

I could be wrong though as I'm no expert.

[Sunday Driver]

This may be a good option. I don't like the idea of hacking my mics if I don't need to, and I've had good results with the PS-2 in the past. 853rx>PS2>R09HR might be small enough if I decide the FR-2LE is too big of a project in certain environments.  Probably only a 350-400 dollar investment as well.

That is the exact set-up I am running now, and I like it. It's works best for loud sources though. Feel free to PM me if you want some samples.
However, taking a look at the size of the FR-2LE, you wouldn't be reducing the size of your overall rig by much.

two rigs,..
one is small and most consider it a stealth rig - but I only use it for open taping
the other is smaller and I use it for both open and low profile.
both offer really nice results.

Moke, for the benefit of the group here, I think we would all like to know what gear makes up these two rigs.

[sunjan]

If you get a custom made 3-wire battery box or preamp with mini-XLR inputs and a miniplug output, you can run your AT853s (sans the adapter/XLR part) into a smaller recorder like an R09 when you need stealthy, and keep the phantom adapters for when you want to run the FR2LE.  A PS-2 modified to have a miniplug output, or with an adapter cable, will work too if you also use the adapters.  That's the way I'd go if you want to keep the AT853s as your main mics, both open and stealth.

This may be a good option. I don't like the idea of hacking my mics if I don't need to, and I've had good results with the PS-2 in the past. 853rx>PS2>R09HR might be small enough if I decide the FR-2LE is too big of a project in certain environments.

Will_S is spot on here! For dual use, add a pair of mini-XLR connectors on the mic cables. That way, you can run 853>CA ST-9100 (custom order with mini-XLR in)>R09-HR. Smaller and more versatile than going the PS2 way.
If your phantom adapters are hardwired like mine (853rx), just put female mini-XLR on the chopped end of the cables.

[Javier Cinakowski]

nameloc is a very slow learner....

[nameloc01]

Yeah,that's me. You're right..running 3 wire mics 2 wire is the right way. I can't imagine anyone wanting to run 3 wire mics 3 wire...crazy bastards.

[Javier Cinakowski]

Yeah,that's me. You're right..running 3 wire mics 2 wire is the right way. I can't imagine anyone wanting to run 3 wire mics 3 wire...crazy bastards.

All issues are not black and white, this issue has quite a few shades of gray.

[nameloc01]

Yes,I know this. The basic point again is, it has come to the point whenever someone mentions AT mics, someone immediately chimes in with "gotta get'em modded or you'll have problems"

-which is kinda true..

I say "kinda" because if they were not being ran incorrectly to begin with there wouldn't be any problems to address by getting the mics modified.

Hence, the right way is 3 wire. Not 2.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm also not saying it isn't more convenient for some people. And its definitely cheaper.

I just wonder how many people have gotten their mics modified out of fear of clipping all the while not understanding if they were powered CORRECTLY it wouldn't be an issue to begin with...I can think of a few right of the start.

Which brings me back to that "battery box thread" instead of explaining to that guy he was running his mics wrong (thus giving him problems) he was told he needed to get his mics "modified" to prevent any future problems. Which is the truth, but not the entire truth. This is where I have a problem.

People can do whatever the hell they want, but they should be given all relative info before they are told what they need to do. Now, if I worked for Denecke, I would hope someone would call me out for doing the same thing, but I don't.

Example: Liquiddrum /Simon.. He says above he modded his 943s...now he may or may not realise that his particular mics may not of have even needed to get modded..but he wanted (I assume) to avoid clipping, so he "modded" them. So, its possible he paid for something he didn't even need. Apparently no one explained this to him. If he was running them 3 wire, it wouldn't even be an issue at all. And he wouldn't have to worry about needing a preamp to regain his lost gain.

So,that's my last comment on the subject. People can do what they want,the tapes will tell the tale.

[Javier Cinakowski]

So,that's my last comment on the subject.

you said that last year....

[nameloc01]

Yeah, well. Sue me for speaking the truth.

See...there I go again.bastard.

[Will_S]

Yes,I know this. The basic point again is, it has come to the point whenever someone mentions AT mics, someone immediately chimes in with "gotta get'em modded or you'll have problems"

Point out where anybody said that in this thread.

Example: Liquiddrum /Simon.. He says above he modded his 943s...now he may or may not realise that his particular mics may not of have even needed to get modded..but he wanted (I assume) to avoid clipping, so he "modded" them. So, its possible he paid for something hedidn't even need. Apparently no one explained this to him. If he was running them 3 wire, it wouldn't even be an issue at all. And he wouldn't have to worry about needing a preamp to regain his lost gain.

Acutally, as was pointed out to you multiple times in this very thread, the 4.7K mod gain "loss" is in comparison to 2-wire powering, not 3 wire.  So he would have "needed a preamp to regain his lost gain" running 3 wire power as well.  Sorry, Javier is right, you are a slow learner.

edits to bold relevant statement

[dmonkey]

 

[nameloc01]

Talk about a slow learner..

The simple point is again..
 
The problems of clipping arise when the mics are ran incorrectly...

That's why people are getting the "mod"

Run them correctly and you won't have to worry about clipping,mods, or any of the other bullshit.

How much more fucking simple can it be?

The point with L.D was if he was running them the way they were designed from the start, he wouldn't have to worry about getting them modded or the clipping. And that he may not have needed it at all to begin with. Painfully simple.

[sunjan]

The point with L.D was if he was running them the way they were designed from the start, he wouldn't have to worry about getting them modded or the clipping. And that he may not have needed it at all to begin with. Painfully simple.

I have to say nameloc has a point here.
In regards to my own rig, I had a long and educative conversation with Chris Church, where he essentially agreed that 3-wire makes perfect sense for AT mics, and that there's no need to "dumb them down" to 2-wire if you intend to run them with a bbox or pre inbetween.

My understanding is that 2-wire has its sole benefit for tapers powering the mics with plugin power. That will enable them to run the mics without any middleware, paired up with the right recorder = more stealthy. That's when 2-wire comes handy - or am I totally off here?

If you own AT mics, and intend to run them with a bbox or pre, there's absolutely no need to do anything else than getting a 3-wire bbox or 3-wire pre. With that, you preserve the original specs, and have a more versatile rig.

[Javier Cinakowski]

no doubt about it, nameloc has a point.  The problem is he has been appling his point to all situations regaurding this set of microphones.  It is a matter of seeing the forest from the trees.   

[Belexes]

As I've said before, I run my AT mics with the 4.7 mod and they can handle anything. Ok, so you lose 10db of sensitivty but I get that back using the CA-9100 pre. From what I can tell/read up on, there is no sound quality difference between phantom/3wire BB and 4.7 mod on AT mics.

Agreed. This is my logic as well.

Did I spend the $ needlessly? I don't think so especially because I run 943 and 853 caps.

[Church-Audio]

What I said again is...

-The AT mics ran 3 wire/phantom are near impossible to clip at a concert. And according to many people sound better than 2 wire. But, let's not argue opinions.

-the AT mics ran 2 wire will clip somewhat easily at a moderate to loud concert.

- the 3 wire/phantom allows max SPLs without compromising the noise.

- the 2 wire modded lowers the sensitivity of the mics, but not the noise in relation to the sensitivity. Right? thus you could say the noise increases. Not too mention possible need of a preamp to regain the lost gain. Right?

All said and done..if $ was not an issue..meaning both methods were the exact same price.. Which one would most people choose?

Minus...the few who may be in fear of stealthing an additional box.
I'm also wondering if Mr.Church has to pay any taxes on these "thousands" of products he's selling here?

Are you kidding me? Pay taxes dude you have no idea about how much taxes I have to pay and how little $$$ I make. As far as trying to sell my mod HEHE thats a good one I ACTUALLY give the info away for free!! Anyways you can talk about me all you want but when you start saying that I am not paying my taxes you have gone way to far. You dont know me from adam. I dont charge my US customers TAX because they are in the USA and I am in Canada SO guess who pays the taxes on the transactions ME!

[Church-Audio]

Yes,I know this. The basic point again is, it has come to the point whenever someone mentions AT mics, someone immediately chimes in with "gotta get'em modded or you'll have problems"

-which is kinda true..

I say "kinda" because if they were not being ran incorrectly to begin with there wouldn't be any problems to address by getting the mics modified.

Hence, the right way is 3 wire. Not 2.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm also not saying it isn't more convenient for some people. And its definitely cheaper.

I just wonder how many people have gotten their mics modified out of fear of clipping all the while not understanding if they were powered CORRECTLY it wouldn't be an issue to begin with...I can think of a few right of the start.

Which brings me back to that "battery box thread" instead of explaining to that guy he was running his mics wrong (thus giving him problems) he was told he needed to get his mics "modified" to prevent any future problems. Which is the truth, but not the entire truth. This is where I have a problem.

People can do whatever the hell they want, but they should be given all relative info before they are told what they need to do. Now, if I worked for Denecke, I would hope someone would call me out for doing the same thing, but I don't.

Example: Liquiddrum /Simon.. He says above he modded his 943s...now he may or may not realise that his particular mics may not of have even needed to get modded..but he wanted (I assume) to avoid clipping, so he "modded" them. So, its possible he paid for something he didn't even need. Apparently no one explained this to him. If he was running them 3 wire, it wouldn't even be an issue at all. And he wouldn't have to worry about needing a preamp to regain his lost gain.

So,that's my last comment on the subject. People can do what they want,the tapes will tell the tale.

Running the mics three wire makes you lose 12 db of gain. Running the mics 2 wire gives you +12 db of gain over 3 wire. Running the mics with my mod gives you a loss of -10 db of gain over 2 wire. And when I do a mod for someone I actually test the mics to see if they need it if they dont I dont charge them.

[boyacrobat]

 such a smack in the head you need for raising tax talk here towards another member.
 not even girls punch that low, not even cockroaches or skunks.
 raise above what you can.

 you can.

 g
 

[Gutbucket]

There is also great value in that you can run both rigs at the same time and learn a lot.
..as well as improve your odds.

[Javier Cinakowski]

I used to have several rigs of various sizes.   Now I just got a set of actives and a PMD660.  Works for open or stealth.  Not the smallest stealth rig, but it can be done...

[Sunday Driver]

yoda speaks again

someone asked:
DPA 4028 -> Grace V3 -> SD 722 -- open only (optional V3, sometimes with, sometimes without)
DPA4060 omni's/MMA6000 -> Edirol R09 -- low profile and open

Thanks, I was curious about this.

[red]

if anyone has any tips on stealthing solo with dual rigs, i'd love to hear some suggestions (via PM, of course).  thanks!

[90meterInAD8]

it makes me confused and scared to see what is and isn't considered a stealth rig, but that's a generational thing.

i remember in '95 saying "you're crazy for stealthing AD1000>D10!!! i'll stick with SXM2>SBM1>D8!"

i thought all those older dudes were nuts with the D10s, and the pre DAT giant cassette decks...and the even older dudes that i never met doing reel stuff, sneaking it in with wheelchairs.

now i look like the maniac. 

stealth means you don't get caught.  after that you can use whatever you want; it's all in the mind.

hey, i'm sure this has been answered, but...how come there isn't a private/invite only "FOBers" sub forum?  is it THAT frowned upon here?

[mpmks]

reading this topic and many others that debate mic/gear issues always seem to end up giving me a headache. i must really be a taper in the stone ages as i just plug my AT853's into a simple AT batery box (AT8531) and into my R-09 and hit the record. most times i remember to turn the battery box on. i end up with something that almost always tends to please me and seems to please most folks who end up downloading my stuff.
recording (previously known as taping) is really just to please yourself at a budget you can
deal with. i have almost never openly recorded (only 3 SCI shows) and i was way to stressed
to ever do that again as the whole tapers section scene was just too much for me as people
just kept telling me i shoudl patch from them as there stuff was just so much better than what i was running--took the fun out of it.
i do wish i did understand all the lingo and workings of this and that when it comes to gear
but i am mostly happy all my stuff works as that was not always the case. it is obvious alot of people here really do care about the hobby and know alot, be it google sourced or not.
i can understand seperate mics/pre for stealth and open but i would think all else could just be the same.
anyway, i will continue to read and maybe even at 53 learn something about this activity that has escaped me for almost 30 years.