Topic: Newbie looking to upgrade her equip

[tokay]

So, I've been stalking equipment reviews for a little while now, and I've read a lot of wildlife/nature recordist forums, but I wanted to pose my question to this forum because I'm impressed with how much everyone seems to know.

Anyway, here's my situation:
Last summer I wandered around the Sonoran desert collecting soundscapes that will ultimately be used in a composition.  I had an Edirol R-9 and a Rode NT4, but I found this combo incredibly frustrating.  Every time I plugged in the NT4, the signal seemed weaker than the edirol's own internal mics, plus I'd get this awful hiss and click.  For most of the summer I just collected recordings with the Edirol R-9 on its own (no external mics), and while I enjoyed the process and some of the recordings I was able to come up with, I'd still like some higher quality, better detailed sounds to work with.  I was able to borrow a Zoom H4 for a short amount of time, and that worked out much better with the NT4 (but I didn't have a ton of time to mess with it or master it).  My hunch is that the Edirol's minijack connection was a large part of the problem, so now I'm feeling a bit stubborn about owning equip w/ XLR connections (but I also don't know any better).

Anyway, I'm heading out again this summer, and I still have the Rode NT4 and the Edirol R-9, and it also looks like I'll be able to borrow the Zoom H4 again (and for the whole time if I want).  But, the good news is, I can upgrade something (or everything) since I have $500 in grant money to spend (but I'm willing to spend a little bit out of pocket if I must).

So, if you were me, where would you begin?  My hunch was to keep the Rode NT4 and go for a better recording device (the Fostex FR2-le is appealing, especially with the Oade upgrades), but I've heard from others to sell the NT4 and invest in better mics.  I kind of like the NT4 because it's easy to use and set up, but if there's another mic or pair of mics that's drastically better within this budget, I'd be interested in recs for those as well.

I'm also interested in any advice on field mixers or preamps.  I realize it'll make my setup a little less portable, but if the sound quality is that much better, it's worth it to me.  On the wildlife recording websites that I've read there wasn't much talk of them at all, and I didn't even think of that (or realize it was an option) until stumbling across this site.

Also, just to throw this out there: my biggest priority is investing in equipment that will give me high quality soundscapes, but I'm also eyeing some shotgun mics to give me more tools/details to play with.  Is it unrealistic at this point to start looking at these?  The decent ones seem to run at a minimum of $200 - and then there's shock mounts and windscreens and all that on top of everything, which doesn't leave too much money for investing in better overall equipment. 

Sorry for this long post!  I've been sitting around with all these questions in my brain for too long.  In any case, any and all opinions would be beyond appreciated (I guess you could say I'm all ears...).

[rastasean]

The NT4 is a very nice microphone and I would love to have one of them...one day.

The R09 has been upgraded to the 09hr so you may want to check into that and read how nice of a new recorder it is.

Anyway, it would be best if you used a pre-amp in between the 09 and the nt4. Something like the Sound Devices mixpre would work perfectly and its pretty tiny so you don't have to lug too much around. There is a recent post on the sound devices mix pre: R09HR with MixPre, Optimal Settings...

You're doing right by just reading and asking questions. No reason to jump in buying expensive gear that you may not enjoy using. Take your time acquiring and learning!

[tokay]

The NT4 is a very nice microphone and I would love to have one of them...one day.

The R09 has been upgraded to the 09hr so you may want to check into that and read how nice of a new recorder it is.

Anyway, it would be best if you used a pre-amp in between the 09 and the nt4. Something like the Sound Devices mixpre would work perfectly and its pretty tiny so you don't have to lug too much around. There is a recent post on the sound devices mix pre: R09HR with MixPre, Optimal Settings...

You're doing right by just reading and asking questions. No reason to jump in buying expensive gear that you may not enjoy using. Take your time acquiring and learning!

Yes!  That MixPre does seem enticing (I was pretty impressed with some of the samples digifish posted using this).  The only things I'm a little nervous about are the connections with my particular R-9.  From my experience with the NT4, the minijack connection seemed pretty sloppy, but I wasn't able to connect it with any other mics or devices to find out if it was just a quirk between the R-9 and the NT4 or just a problem with my R-9 in general.  I'm nervous that the Line in connection could be similarly flawed and could ruin the quality of a good preamp.  Are these paranoid musings?  And if not, I could still use the Zoom H4.  Any idea how the H4 would work with the MixPre? 

And since it's about the same price, how does the NT4 -> MixPre -> Zoom H4 (or edirol) compare as a setup to the NT4 -> Fostex Fr2le Basic Oade mod? 

Oh and thanks for the response! 

[Brian Skalinder]

I agree with Sean, I think an SD MixPre would match well with the NT4 and R09.  The hiss you heard when running NT4 > R09 is probably because you were applying gain (amplification) to the NT4 using the R09.  The R09 doesn't have a lot of clean gain.  Using the MixPre, or another suitable preamp with lots of clean gain, should remove the hiss.

The click concerns me, though.  Any chance you can post an MP3 sample?  Could be an NT4 battery, cable, or R-09 input connector issue.  If the NT4 worked okay with the Zoom, it's probably not an NT4 battery issue (unless you didn't use battery power with the zoom, and switched to phantom power;  in which case the issue could still be the NT4 battery power).  To narrow it down further, assuming you have access to some additional gear, test running NT4 > known-good interconnect cable > R-09, and NT4 > known-good interconnect cable > another recording device that accepts the mini-stereo jack.  The goal is to isolate each piece of gear in the recording chain to see if the problem follows a specific piece of gear.

As for the Oade MOD FR-2LE, I think you'd want the Super MOD for nature / ambient (unamplified source) recording.  This will provide higher gain than the Basic MOD.  But it's also another $150.  I can't compare sound quality directly to the MixPre > R-09 / Zoom, but do have a couple general comments:

• The NT4 > FR-2LE combo should prove more robust physically, mainly due to more secure (XLR) cable connections.  The R-09's mini-stereo connector isn't the most secure / robust connector in the world.
• Purpose-built devices generally provide better quality.  The NT4 > MixPre > recorder option may provide more gain, at higher quality, than the FR-2LE.

There's the conundrum:  do you want a setup (NT4 > FR-2LE) that's more robust and still sounds mighty good, or a slightly more purpose-built setup (NT4 > MixPre > R-09) that's not as robust, but may offer slightly more / cleaner gain?  Given the wealth of reasonably inexpensive, reasonably high quality gear available these days, I'm inclined to keep it simple.  That would lead me to NT4 > FR-2LE, stock, Basic, or Super, depending on your needs and budget.

You might consider calling Doug Oade or sending him an email similar to what you've posted here and pick his brain a bit.  I'm a big fan of Oade modded gear, and he may have some good input for you.  One thing to keep in mind:  at least historically, Doug has allowed me to send back my preamp/ADC/recorder for a MOD upgrade.  So, for example, if you don't have the cash up front for the Super MOD FR-2LE, you could go with the Basic MOD (or stock unit) for now, then send it back later and have it upgraded.  (Note:  If you buy a stock unit, you must buy it from Oade Bros, otherwise I don't think they'll upgrade it later.)  It's a bit more expensive doing it in multiple steps, but it might provide a nice, compact, robust field recording setup now, while also allowing you the option of higher / cleaner gain down the road by simply sending it back for a Basic or Super MOD, without a lot of hassle, changing up of gear, etc.

Oh, and welcome to TS!

[rowjimmytour]

Sorry I don't own a R9 but I thought other owners were experiencing the same problem w/ the cable (line in) so they use a right angle in. Also I would invest in a preamp and keep what you got

[jnorman34]

for the type of ambient recording you are doing, i would recommend that you move away from the fixed XY cards of the NT4 and go to a pair of omnis.  omnis are much less suseptible to wind noise and handling noise, and give a much more diffuse, open ambient sound than cards can do.  go with a recorder that has XLR inputs to accommodate whichever mics you select.  btw, i can highly recommend the new little AT4022 omnis fo this type of work.

[tokay]

There's the conundrum:  do you want a setup (NT4 > FR-2LE) that's more robust and still sounds mighty good, or a slightly more purpose-built setup (NT4 > MixPre > R-09) that's not as robust, but may offer slightly more / cleaner gain?  Given the wealth of reasonably inexpensive, reasonably high quality gear available these days, I'm inclined to keep it simple.  That would lead me to NT4 > FR-2LE, stock, Basic, or Super, depending on your needs and budget.

Seeing it broken down this way, I'm torn!  On the one hand I'm craving some really high quality sound, but on the other I feel a little more at ease with a setup that requires fewer connections and cables (it seems to limit the number of places where something could go wrong, I imagine...but I suppose something could always go wrong within the mic or recording device so I might just be fooling myself).  Probably all of this stems from a general distrust of my Edirol (I'll post some mp3s in a few).  I'll see what you have to say about the clicks, but I'm pretty sure the Edirol's responsible (I ran the NT4 on battery power with the Zoom H4 and while there was the expected hiss, there weren't any clicks).  If I'm able to come across a different mic or piece of equipment that requires the line-in, I'll definitely run some more experiments with it and post my findings. 

You might consider calling Doug Oade or sending him an email similar to what you've posted here and pick his brain a bit.  I'm a big fan of Oade modded gear, and he may have some good input for you.  One thing to keep in mind:  at least historically, Doug has allowed me to send back my preamp/ADC/recorder for a MOD upgrade.  So, for example, if you don't have the cash up front for the Super MOD FR-2LE, you could go with the Basic MOD (or stock unit) for now, then send it back later and have it upgraded.  (Note:  If you buy a stock unit, you must buy it from Oade Bros, otherwise I don't think they'll upgrade it later.)  It's a bit more expensive doing it in multiple steps, but it might provide a nice, compact, robust field recording setup now, while also allowing you the option of higher / cleaner gain down the road by simply sending it back for a Basic or Super MOD, without a lot of hassle, changing up of gear, etc.

I actually was able to get in touch with him, and he had good things to say about both the modded FR-2le and the NT4, so that lends another voice of confidence in that setup.  I also like having the option of upgrading it further if I come across a little more money, so I might just go for this setup in the end.  I have to mull over it a bit more though - it gives me an excuse to obsess over all this stuff for a little longer...

[tokay]

for the type of ambient recording you are doing, i would recommend that you move away from the fixed XY cards of the NT4 and go to a pair of omnis.  omnis are much less suseptible to wind noise and handling noise, and give a much more diffuse, open ambient sound than cards can do.  go with a recorder that has XLR inputs to accommodate whichever mics you select.  btw, i can highly recommend the new little AT4022 omnis fo this type of work.

Yeah, the wind with the NT4 was a little bit of an issue (I did get a Rycote Miniwindjammer, which helped a lot).  Curiously enough, that little windjammer came in pretty handy with the R9.  I discovered that the whole front of the R9 fits perfectly in it, so I was able to cut down on wind noise for the internal mics (which without it were really sensitive to any breeziness).

I'll probably stick with the NT4 in the end though, mostly because it seems workable enough and I'd probably have to sell it at a loss to afford new mics (especially if I'm getting either a new recording device or preamp as well).  Even though the wind handling could be better, I did discover that summer dawns in the desert are usually freakishly still (especially in June).  This did mean quite a few all-nighters for the sake of recording at daybreak, but there's something romantic about reworking your routine around the whim of the wind or some such thing. 

I'll definitely keep those omnis in mind for the future though - do you do field/soundscape recording as well? 

[tokay]

Here's the audio with the clicking issues (let me know if there's another preferred method of sharing audio):

http://www.yousendit.com/download/UmNMRE9ncG9iR0pFQlE9PQ

The first half of the mp3 is the NT4 with the R9, and the second half is the NT4 with the Zoom H4 (also using battery power).  I upped the gain for both using Logic so you can hear the clicks a bit better. 

[George2]

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105893.msg1443847.html#msg1443847

Sound Devices Mix Pre!!

[EYES]

i had a cable made for the nt4> to mini that helped rock my recordings. if you would like it send pm i will help. have new cable nt4 to xlr just made for a another upgraded all in 1 recorder. both cables made by ts member.

[sunjan]

Given the wealth of reasonably inexpensive, reasonably high quality gear available these days, I'm inclined to keep it simple.  That would lead me to NT4 > FR-2LE, stock, Basic, or Super, depending on your needs and budget.

Seeing it broken down this way, I'm torn!  On the one hand I'm craving some really high quality sound, but on the other I feel a little more at ease with a setup that requires fewer connections and cables

I'd go with Bri's advice. There's no need to hold on to the R-09, you'll get a better user interface with a bigger box like the FR2-LE. Sell the R-09 here at the YS, and you'll have more money to spend with Oade!
I don't know enough about their mods with other gear, but there's always the Marantz PMD series, which also can be had "ambient-modded", and should stand up well against the FR2-LE. Don't know if they would bust your budget though...

[fmaderjr]

I have  an NT4, a Mix Pre, and an R-09. The NT-4, when used with the 1/8 output, does not sound nearly as good as when used with phantom power.

One route would be to get a used MixPre or the cheaper Wendt X2 ($300 on E-Bay) to power the mic and to amplify. If you are going to use a preamp anyway, you'll hear little benefit from upgrading the R-09 if it is working properly. If there is a problem with the line in jack causing the click, someone on this board may be able to perform the fix for a reasonable price. I would not rely on the Zoom H-4. Very unintuitive to use, and I got a lot of noise when I tested my NT4 with the H4's phantom power. My R-09 sounds great when I get my gain from the MixPre, but I've never had any problem with the input jacks.

Or if you want an all in one, I think sunjan has a good idea suggesting something like the Oade Super Mod Marantz PDM-661. I imagine Busman does something like this as well.

[EYES]

i picked the nt4 up with mt recorder. than ordered a, S.P. mt interface, that allows me to use the 1/4" trs line in. with the upgraded cable nt4>1/8">mt interface the sound is great for me. i know there are other ways to go as suggested. it's up to you. just be sure UR HAPPY

[moooose]

Here is one more voice (mine) suggesting the purchase of the SD MixPre. I do field recording, most nature sounds, and the combo MixPre + NT4 works very well. My recorder is now a Sony PCM D50, previously a korg MR-1 - with both I got pleasant results.
If you keep an open eye on yard sale you can get a used MixPre for around $ 500, which should fit your budget.

[tokay]

Wow, thanks for all of your advice so far.  I think I'm going to try to get my hands on some other mics and equipment so I can test out my R9 a little more.  If the connections seem really screwed up with all the equipment I try, I'll probably opt for the Fostex.  If everything's working, it seems like the wise thing to do is get the Mixpre.  I'll let you know what I end up getting (and don't be surprised if you see a new topic such as "Newbie looking to understand her equip"...I apologize ahead of time). 

[dorrcoq]

Why apologize?  Guys love these types of threads.

[Mike R.]

The hiss in the first half of your sample is almost certainly from your microphone preamp.  An external preamp like the Mix-Pre would clean that up nicely.

The clicking is a little more mysterious to me.  It sounds like you recorded it. Almost a ticking sound near the beginning of the second half of your sample?  Were you wearing a mechanical wristwatch?  Maybe it was a nearby insect?  Maybe I'm not hearing it at all?

[digifish_music]

As you know I have the same gear. I am currently using an NT4 -> MixPre -> R09HR for my most mobile setup.

Advice based on your gear: I would not (at this point) buy any more mics or new recorders, your limiting factor is getting high levels of clean gain (well clean gain of any sort with an R09). The best way to do that is invest in something like a MixPre. You can connect that to your R09 line-in with a light-weight and flexible cable. The results are completely professional in quality. Recorders and mics come and go, but a MixPre is a life-long investment in a quality, and most importantly, very very quiet preamp.

The moment you plug the NT4 into the MixPre a whole new world will open up to you, it really makes a dramatic and exciting difference. The NT4 + R09 + MixPre makes stellar field recordings IMO, most of the recordings below were made using this rig...

green path (walk and record) -

http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=44480

and orange line = distance recording (68m = 223 feet).

http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=44478

http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=44479



...and something a bit more serene. This recording was from the house up the hill to where the photo was taken.

http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=54889



and close mic water, at this range it sounds like listening through a magnifying glass, should have backed up a little ...

http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=53428



Wildlife

Close up with an Australian Brushtail Possum (far cuter than American Possums )

http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=53291



Aus Magpie

http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=42189



Bats

http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=44170

No pic sorry

Here's the AT3032 + MixPre + R09HR

http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=57272



BTW: If you create a free account at freesound you can download the original recordings.

Wind noise:

The cheapest way to go is get a Rode DeadKitten and slip it over the NT4 foam pop-shield. $20 ish.

if you can afford it put your NT4 in a Rode Blimp...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LNxAjjKH3M

Omni mic pair vs NT4

While it is good advice that an omni stereo mic pair makes great recordings, the inconvenience of managing a stereo pair in the field far outweighs the advantages over an NT4 IMO. For me the convenience of [NT4 (in Blimp) - MixPre - R09] is not to be underestimated. You grab the bundle and go. You are mobile and can record wherever you want.

digifish

[digifish_music]

Yes!  That MixPre does seem enticing (I was pretty impressed with some of the samples digifish posted using this).  The only things I'm a little nervous about are the connections with my particular R-9.  From my experience with the NT4, the minijack connection seemed pretty sloppy, but I wasn't able to connect it with any other mics or devices to find out if it was just a quirk between the R-9 and the NT4 or just a problem with my R-9 in general. 

The NT4 1/8" jack cable is quite stiff and heavy in comparison to the sort of 1/8" to 1/8" cable you can use from the Tape Out on the MixPre to the Line-In on the R09, I am sure you will have no problems there. Getting a connector with right-angle connectors will also help. 

There is no comparison between these two...



digifish

[stevetoney]

First, it seems that digifish has provided the definitive aswer to your questions above, so I'm not all that sure I can add much.

I'm not a nature recordist, but as I was initially reading through the responses this morning I was thinking along the same lines as digifish about the fact that all the talk about the recording device is somewhat misplaced discussion unless you did want an all-in-one device.  The point being, as digifish said, you've already got exactly what you want/need for field recording...a good mic and a tiny portable high quality pocket digital recorder.  All you need to add is the high quality low noise pre-amp to get your gain up! 

Obviously, if you wanna go with an all-in-one, you don't have to worry about buying the high quality, low noise preamp because it will already be a part of the all-in-one recorder!  Just make sure you're dealing with either Busman or Oade when you get your all-in-one (if you go that route) because they'll best be able to tell you what products they have that would suit your needs! 

Not sure if this is your issue, but regarding the clicking sound, be aware that on the early R-09s that were delivered a couple of years ago, the line-in jack had a really weak connection where the jack was just basically connected to the PC board with a dollup of solder...this broke for lots and lots of people.  This connection needed to be beefed up (under warranty by Edirol or I sent mine out to someone here on TS.com) so that it could withstand the plugging and unplugging over time by first fixing that solder connection and then securing the jack with a glob of epoxy in order for that jack to hold up to the rigors of the field.  Yours might be coming loose!

EDIT TO ADD:  Some people resolved the above connection problem by adding another short cable to their R-09 and then leaving that cable permanently affixed to the R-09 in order to minimize stressing the line in connection, while plugging and unplugging from the female connector on the cable instead of the R-09.  In my case, after I'd had my R-09 repaired, I bought a short cable and then wrapped a velcro strap around my R-09 so that this extra cable was secured to the body of the R-09 (and so that the cable couldn't be pulled and yanked thereby stressing the line-in jack anymore) and I just plugged and unplugged from the external cable.  Not an ideal situation, but workable and solved the problem.

[stevetoney]

I was going back over this thread a little bit.  The blimp's are nice, but most people on this list don't use blimps because they're expensive and unnecessary.  The thing that makes the blimp work is the fur that surrounds it.  Someone suggested an omni mic.  OK, that works too, but all you really need is your mic screen, which you said you already have, and the fur that covers the foam screen.  Around here we call the furry things 'deadrats' or just plain 'rats' for short. 

If you have a sewing machine, they're easy to make.  Just go to your local Jo Ann fabric and buy some material that looks acceptable and won't get you arrested by the animal league for carrying around dead animal carcasses...measure it out so that it will fit around the outside of your foam windscreen, add maybe a half inch of slop, sew it all up from the inside and then turn it inside out and viola...the wind will have to HOWL in order for you to hear any wind noise through your rats and the screens...guaranteed! 

You might think...well doesn't that cut down on the nature sounds...well, that's what the low noise preamp is for...just turn the gain up a little bit more and you're back where you started.  FWIW, tests have shown that screens and rats cut down on high frequency response a bit, but everyone agrees that this is a small sacrifice to getting the goods in a windstorm!

[phanophish]

I was also kind of wondering why there was not more of a suggestion of an all in one device like a R-44.  It simplifies the number of pieces of gear you must carry around, give you some really nice flexibility as far as channels go, has decent pre amps and if you sold off your R-09 can be found in the ballpark of the $$ your budget allows.  It can also be run with standard AA batteries which might be handy in remote locations where really long run times might not be top priority

[rastasean]

AND THEN....

you need headphones!

Who recommends what?

I like the Sennheiser HD-280 Pro - Circumaural Closed-Back Professional Monitor Headphone
and the
Roland RH-50 Circumaural Closed-Back Stereo Headphone

Has anyone actually used these? Anyone have any recommendations?

[tokay]

Once again, thanks for all of this input.  You have no idea how helpful this is.  I think now I'm leaning towards the mixpre, but I might see if I can try it out first (I hear that good dealers let you try the equipment before buying it?).  Mostly I'm curious about whether or not the R9 connection issues are something I'll need to address with the Mixpre or not.  Re: Mike R, the clicking was consistent across recordings (the one I posted is a little weird because there's also an insect making fast-paced vibrations beneath the clicking, but that's the only one I could find on this hard drive).  I'm also pretty sure it's not a watch, as I'd set the mic up on a stand some distance from my arm (and with the H4 the clicking disappeared).  I'm pretty sure it's a connection issue, but I'm relieved to hear that this issue is a recognized one (thanks tonedeaf for the details on this - I'm going to see if I'm still under warranty and hopefully I can get this fixed). 

And digifish, awesome recordings.  I came across those before joining the forum, and that's when I first started wondering about mixers vs. all-in-one recorders.  It also looks really portable from your pictures, also a plus. 

 

[tokay]

I also feel settled on the NT4, and one more question I have has less to do with wind (I do have a rycote mini windjammer that served me pretty well) and more to do with handling noise.  The NT4 works great on a stand, but it would be nice to walk around with it a bit.  The blimps are out of my league price-wise (also, the wind hasn't been too much of an issue yet, so it seems a bit extravegent for my needs), but is there something between that and nothing that would allow me to record while moving around? 

I did find a shockmount designed for the NT4, but in the description they emphasize that it's used for mounting it on a camera (http://stores.channeladvisor.com/daleproaudio/items/item.aspx?itemid=2575006).  Would it make sense to buy a shockmount, mount it on a normal mic stand and then walk around carrying the stand?  Would that even work, or is there an easier way to do this?  There is also this: http://www.thebroadcastshop.com/sales/detail.asp?partno=RY-MSMED&aid=froogle, but again, way too expensive.. 

[rastasean]

Well since you already have some kind of wind protection, thats less money to spend! you can just make something as well, tonedeaf gave a good recommendation on that.

check this out:
http://www.thecinecity.com/tcc/product.php?productid=57&cat=265&page=1

That's a little less than half the price of the other one you liked us to.  Not everyone will recommend this option to you because its not of professional quality but it will probably work for you.
If you do some searching on the net, and maybe on TS, you will find do it yourself suspension kits made out of PVC and rubber bands but I don't have those links anymore.

Would it make sense to buy a shockmount, mount it on a normal mic stand and then walk around carrying the stand?

not to me.  perhaps you can consider that option if you wanted to leave the mic unattended and didn't want any possible bumping noises on the recording.

[phanophish]

rode also recently came out with a blimp.  Still pricey but getting there....

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/closeup/Blimp--contents.jpg

[digifish_music]

I was also kind of wondering why there was not more of a suggestion of an all in one device like a R-44.  It simplifies the number of pieces of gear you must carry around, give you some really nice flexibility as far as channels go, has decent pre amps and if you sold off your R-09

R44 vs MixPre

I have an R44 and the preamps are decent, fine in the studio, at the concert or recording mid to loud sources in the field (waterfalls, the sea, trains passing etc) but are not really suitable for 'quietude' nature recording, birds, ambiances etc. Too much hiss at the highest gain settings...the MixPre is by comparison completely silent at the equivalent of the R44's two highest gain levels (where the R44 starts noticeable hiss)...and the MixPre still has more quiet gain to give above that.

Suspension solutions...

I also have a pair of Cine City blimps (you can see one being used in some of those screenshots above). The Cine City blimp does a fine job, you just need to be careful with them (a bit fragile).

I recently got a Rode Blimp and it's a much more satisfying solution than the Cine City, from a  mechanical/durability perspective. Sound wise, I doubt they could be separated. 

Solution 1 Cine City Blimp

Here's the NT4 in the Cine City blimp suspension (with doubled rubbers)...







Solution 2: Rode Blimp, Total ~$250 USD?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LNxAjjKH3M

Solution 3: Total = ~$120 <- My recommendation!

A Rode pistol-grip ($99) mount + put a Dead Kitten ($20) over your NT4 foam.



The Dead Kitten...



Solution 4: Total =~ $70

A Rode SM3 or SM4 (prefer 3 as you can tighten the pivot mount, can't on the SM4) + Dead Kitten



...and do this...



Problem with the above, the NT4 is heavy and almost bottoming out the SM3/4 mount, so you don't have a lot of suspension travel to play with.

As noted above, I think Solution 3 (Pistol grip + Dead Kitten) is probably the most cost effective and, importantly, light-weight / transportable.

digifish

[tokay]

A Rode pistol-grip ($99) mount + put a Dead Kitten ($20) over your NT4 foam.

Oh nice, this is exactly what I was thinking of.  I couldn't find anything like this for the NT4 (everything seemed to be oriented towards shotgun mics).  But if the NT4 fits in there, I guess there's no reason that wouldn't work...

[digifish_music]

A Rode pistol-grip ($99) mount + put a Dead Kitten ($20) over your NT4 foam.

Oh nice, this is exactly what I was thinking of.  I couldn't find anything like this for the NT4 (everything seemed to be oriented towards shotgun mics).  But if the NT4 fits in there, I guess there's no reason that wouldn't work...

The grip comes with two size adaptors...19-20mm or 21-22.5mm using the supplied interchangeable mounts.

But wait (doh!) the NT4 has a barrel diameter of 32mm. It's possible it may fit in the larger mount, better ask rode...

support@rodemic.com

I also remember they have a $20 handle, so here is the $80 solution...

Dead-Kitten



+

PG1 pistol grip ( http://www.rodemic.com/accessory.php?product=pg1 )



+

SM3



I'd be looking to double the rubbers or something here.

[tokay]

I just sent my R09 off to be repaired.  Hopefully that'll solve my connection issues and I can get started with a mixpre pretty soon.  I never thought I'd feel this excited about the prospect of clean gain..

[digifish_music]

I never thought I'd feel this excited about the prospect of clean gain..

I have had my MixPre for two years and I am still excited about it. Turns cheap SD card recorders into gold

[tokay]

Awesome.  I got my R-9 fixed, ordered a mixpre, and I've just started using it.  God I love this thing.  I don't even really know what I'm doing yet and it already sounds a million times better than my last set up.  Thanks everyone for the advice!

Some blissfully stupid questions to make sure I'm maximizing my use of this stuff:

- I assume the mixpre should plug into the Line In jack and NOT the microphone jack on the R-9?  Both work, but the leveling is different in each situation (with the mic jack, I have to set the levels pretty low on both the R-9 and mixpre, with the input jack I have to increase them a lot).  What's the difference between the two?  This is probably a really dumb question but, ah well. 

- Phantom or Battery?  I've been going with phantom, but I'm curious if there's an advantage to using the battery (other than preserving the mixpre's own battery life, I imagine).

- I assume I don't have to touch the tape return stuff ever?  I can't quite figure out what it's for, so I'm assuming it doesn't apply to what I'm doing.

- Limiters/High Pass Filters...I'm thinking I don't touch these either (for relatively quiet environmental/ambient recordings)? 

Last but not least, things are running beautifully for the situations I've run into so far, but for really quiet situations, I'm not sure I'll get enough gain.  What's the most efficient way to set levels for quiet situations (maybe I should just use the mic jack)?  I think I read somewhere that the R-09 input level should be set between 8-10 - is this true for all situations?  And for louder situations, would it make sense to set the R-9 at an even lower level and let the mixpre do most of the work?     

Sorry for my dumb (yet enthusiastic) questions - any tips will help guide me in all my recording experiments.  Horray, recording is fun! 

[fmaderjr]

Go line in to the R-09 from the MixPre.

Always use phantom with the NT-4 when you can. The sound quality with battery power is not as good as with phantom and it requires more gain from the preamp.

The tape return is for head phone monitoring.

Skip the limiter/high pass filter, although I guess in some circumstances the high pass could help with wind noise. Better to have a good dead cat windscreen for the NT-4 than using the high pass though.

People have said that the unity gain on the R-09 is anywhere from 8-13. I think most have said that it's 13 and that's what I go with.

For really loud situations, never set the R-09 below 8. If it must be set below 8 to keep the meters from going over 0 dB, you run the chance of a brick walled (distorted) recording.

I don't know about running the MixPre into mic in for really quiet situations. You could experiment, but I doubt if its the way to go.

[digifish_music]

- I assume the mixpre should plug into the Line In jack and NOT the microphone

Correct. Don't use mic-in. The mic-in on the R09 will add unecessary noise and possibly tend to overload, since it is a much more sensitive input.  

- Phantom or Battery?  I've been going with phantom, but I'm curious if there's an advantage to using the battery

I use the Phantom on the MixPre as the NT4 takes stupid 9V batteries and is in a blimp where it's hard to get to. It means you have only one type of batteries to worry about. A 4 pack rechargeable AA's = 2 for the MixPre and 2 for the R09. All is well.

- I assume I don't have to touch the tape return stuff ever? 

Correct. It's NT4 --(mic cables)-->MixPre--(1/8" double-male mini-jack tape-out)-->R09 (line in).

Tape return is to allow the recording to be monitored through the MixPre. Not necessary for your application. You can monitor from the R09 or the MixPre direct (it's up to you, I use the MixPre, it's a far better quality sound and closer to what you are recording)

- Limiters/High Pass Filters...I'm thinking I don't touch these either (for relatively quiet environmental/ambient recordings)? 

Just leave it off (middle position). The high-pass filter, 80 Hz(up position) can be useful to reduce some traffic rumble etc when recording birdies etc. 160 Hz  (down position) is a bit too much roll-off IMO.

What's the most efficient way to set levels for quiet situations

There are 11 tick marks around the MixPre gain controls. I wouldn't turn the gain above the 9th tick mark (3 O'Clock) position. If you need to crank more than that for gain on a MixPre, don't bother. IMO

1. Leave the R09 on about 8-10, don't bother to touch that once you have it set.

2. Fiddle with the gain on the MixPre and aim for -12dB to -6dB peaks in 24 bit mode. However: many quiet sources are quiet...and so you may want to record them quietly (-20 dB peaks?). It's not always a good thing to over-amplify the source, the aim is to make a natural recording.

[tokay]

Thanks again for the answers, everyone - I just made a few more recordings today and I'm feeling a bit more knowledgeable and confident with all this, definitely a good thing. 

[georgeh]

Thanks again for the answers, everyone - I just made a few more recordings today and I'm feeling a bit more knowledgeable and confident with all this, definitely a good thing. 

i'd be interested in hearing some samples at some point.

[su6oxone]

I don't know about running the MixPre into mic in for really quiet situations. You could experiment, but I doubt if its the way to go.

I had a MixPre for awhile and for an average concert I never had the gain pots at more than 8 o'clock, which is barely turning the pots at all, because otherwise it would peak/overload.  So I'm guessing even for quiet situations you could get away with line-in and just raise the gain.  Luckily, the quiet taping situations are easily tested at home, unlike a loud concert. 

[tokay]

Thanks again for the answers, everyone - I just made a few more recordings today and I'm feeling a bit more knowledgeable and confident with all this, definitely a good thing. 

i'd be interested in hearing some samples at some point.

Sure, I'm only familiar with sending mp3s though, so forgive the quality. 

First sample: outside on the patio.  Lots of wind, windchimes, dry sticks/leaves blowing around, a little bit of traffic in the distance, something banging against the wall (I think), really faint crickets sometimes. 

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=batch_download&batch_id=MnFoQndOR0ZtUUYzZUE9PQ

Second sample: should've put my phone on vibrate to blend in with cicadas (includes a little unfortunate wind noise, me trying not to laugh and a dove freaking out on a cactus for a second). 

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=batch_download&batch_id=MnFoQndOR0Z6NExIRGc9PQ

If anyone can hear anything I should be doing differently (other than leaving my phone off), definitely let me know. 

[John Bobson]

Hi folks,

This is my first post, I’ve searched all over and learned a lot here. My situation is very similar to the person’s who started this thread Tokay, so I thought I would jump in. If it turns out this should have been a new thread, sorry for the hijack…

So I want to do wildlife field recording very much like Tokay’s situation and many of my questions have been covered here pretty thoroughly but my needs are bit different and I need some advice.

I’m doing wildlife research and using unattended trail cams for photos and want to start doing field recording to get wildlife vocalizations as well. The majority of the use my set up will get will be outdoors and much of it overnight. I will be doing a lot of recording while camping in the bush and will run the recorder attended until bedtime. Overnight my plan is to position the recorder/preamp in the tent vestibule with the mike just outside pointing away. This will be done year round so I need to ensure the mic is protected from the weather.

In terms of equipment I’m planning on going with a Rhode NT3-G > SD Mixpre > Edirol R09-HR as well as a Dead Cat and Sennheiser HD 25-1 II headphones for all weather monitoring. I’m going with the NT3-G because I hear the NT 4 doesn’t like condensation and the NTG-3 is very weather resistant. So with that change I accept the arguments presented here for the other equipment.

My questions are:

1)   How do you protect an unattended mike from rain and snow? Build a little tent over it? Wrap it?
2)   The frequency response of the NTG-3 is fairly flat which will work well for sound in the human range. However some of the mammals I want to record could have vocalizations beyond human range and I would like to see if I can get a visual sonogram of vocalizations say lower than we can hear (not worried about bats). Will my proposed set up be able to do this?
3)   I would like to be able get high quality unattended recordings for about 8 hours. What would be the best settings on the R09HR to do this and am I correct in thinking it will close the file and start a new one when file size limits are hit? Is this firmware rev level dependent?
4)   Finally I would also like to record acoustic blues session with my son and I on the porch. I’m pretty sure I will be able to do this quite well with this set up but would appreciate it if someone could confirm.

Thanks in advance, this is a great forum with lot’s of good information and I’m looking forward to any comments and feedback,  gerry

[digifish_music]

My questions are:

1)   How do you protect an unattended mike from rain and snow? Build a little tent over it? Wrap it?
2)   The frequency response of the NTG-3 is fairly flat which will work well for sound in the human range. However some of the mammals I want to record could have vocalizations beyond human range and I would like to see if I can get a visual sonogram of vocalizations say lower than we can hear (not worried about bats). Will my proposed set up be able to do this?
3)   I would like to be able get high quality unattended recordings for about 8 hours. What would be the best settings on the R09HR to do this and am I correct in thinking it will close the file and start a new one when file size limits are hit? Is this firmware rev level dependent?
4)   Finally I would also like to record acoustic blues session with my son and I on the porch. I’m pretty sure I will be able to do this quite well with this set up but would appreciate it if someone could confirm.

1. There have been quite a few posts on protecting mics overnight. Generally I have wrapped the mic very tightly with a layer of cling-film. Made no discernible difference to the audio. Make sure the capsule has a single tightly stretched layer.

See this thread for a more general discussion - http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,108390.0.html

2. I use either an NT4 or AT3032 pair in the field. Both are capable of recording into the ultrasonic range as is the NTG-3. However it's a shotgun mic and highly directional. I am not sure it's the best mic for unattended nature recording. It is more the sort of mic for manually pointing at the sound source of interest.

3. The R09HR has a record menu option 'Max file size' that will allow you to set it to start a new file each time the limit is hit. The files are seamless too if you need to splice them back together. I'd use the 512 Mb setting.

4. It would work, but the NTG-3 is going to lack some bottom end and be a little sensitive to performer movement.

Regards Scott

 

[rastasean]

Wow, this is a really old post. At least the new poster searched and read everything! congrats.

I agree with Scott in stating that this is a shotgun mic and its highly directional. You may get noises from creatures in the direction its pointed but if they are outside that rage (i.e. far right or far left), it most likely will not record that. If you already own the mic, try it out. I own this microphone and have been impressed with the very narrow pattern of it. I was able to pick people's voices up from my apartment and they were ~ 50 feet away...they were speaking spanish so I didn't know what they were saying.

if you plan to leave it unattended for several hours, go with the smallest file that way you don't have to edit out so much and you're able to dump useless files.

If you are interested in using a mono microphone to record music and instruments, set your recorder in mono. Personally, I would just use the r09 and put in close to the guitar to get a stereo image.   

[John Bobson]

My questions are:

1)   How do you protect an unattended mike from rain and snow? Build a little tent over it? Wrap it?
2)   The frequency response of the NTG-3 is fairly flat which will work well for sound in the human range. However some of the mammals I want to record could have vocalizations beyond human range and I would like to see if I can get a visual sonogram of vocalizations say lower than we can hear (not worried about bats). Will my proposed set up be able to do this?
3)   I would like to be able get high quality unattended recordings for about 8 hours. What would be the best settings on the R09HR to do this and am I correct in thinking it will close the file and start a new one when file size limits are hit? Is this firmware rev level dependent?
4)   Finally I would also like to record acoustic blues session with my son and I on the porch. I’m pretty sure I will be able to do this quite well with this set up but would appreciate it if someone could confirm.

1. There have been quite a few posts on protecting mics overnight. Generally I have wrapped the mic very tightly with a layer of cling-film. Made no discernible difference to the audio. Make sure the capsule has a single tightly stretched layer.

See this thread for a more general discussion - http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,108390.0.html

2. I use either an NT4 or AT3032 pair in the field. Both are capable of recording into the ultrasonic range as is the NTG-3. However it's a shotgun mic and highly directional. I am not sure it's the best mic for unattended nature recording. It is more the sort of mic for manually pointing at the sound source of interest.

3. The R09HR has a record menu option 'Max file size' that will allow you to set it to start a new file each time the limit is hit. The files are seamless too if you need to splice them back together. I'd use the 512 Mb setting.

4. It would work, but the NTG-3 is going to lack some bottom end and be a little sensitive to performer movement.

Regards Scott

 

Thanks for the feedback Scott. You just made my day. I really wanted the NT4 but the weather thing was driving me to NTG-3. I read the weatherproofing posts and I'm now confident I can still use the NT4 which is a much better fit for my applications and protect it enough to still use it in inclement weather. I think I will try the cling wrap method first. It sounds like the NT4 will work better for unattended recording, can pick up ultrasonic and will work better for acoustic blues outside. Cheaper too ...

Wow, this is a really old post. At least the new poster searched and read everything! congrats.

I agree with Scott in stating that this is a shotgun mic and its highly directional. You may get noises from creatures in the direction its pointed but if they are outside that rage (i.e. far right or far left), it most likely will not record that. If you already own the mic, try it out. I own this microphone and have been impressed with the very narrow pattern of it. I was able to pick people's voices up from my apartment and they were ~ 50 feet away...they were speaking spanish so I didn't know what they were saying.

if you plan to leave it unattended for several hours, go with the smallest file that way you don't have to edit out so much and you're able to dump useless files.

If you are interested in using a mono microphone to record music and instruments, set your recorder in mono. Personally, I would just use the r09 and put in close to the guitar to get a stereo image.   

Thanks to you also rastasean, I realize it was an old thread but it covered so much of my situation i was torn between adding to it and starting a new one. Also thanks for recognizing that I read many many posts here before asking the same old questions. There really is a treasure trove of information here. Good idea about small files too...I  like to work smarter not harder.

I told the shop I'm buying from I wanted to get a few things clarified before i pulled the trigger and you guys have done that for me in spades. Thanks very much and I look forward to spending lots of time here. g

[digifish_music]

Thanks for the feedback Scott. You just made my day. I really wanted the NT4 but the weather thing was driving me to NTG-3. I read the weatherproofing posts and I'm now confident I can still use the NT4 which is a much better fit for my applications and protect it enough to still use it in inclement weather. I think I will try the cling wrap method first. It sounds like the NT4 will work better for unattended recording, can pick up ultrasonic and will work better for acoustic blues outside. Cheaper too ...

Just make sure you wrap each capsule close/tight. You want to eliminate as much air as possible in the enclose space to reduce the possibility of condensation if it gets cold.

Regards Scott

[John Bobson]

will do Scott...

ps.  picked up an NT4 on ebay tonight very good deal