Topic: In-Ear-Monitor Taping

[dev0n]

I've recently been introduced to sniffing in-ear-monitor transmissions as a taping option, and while I'm still researching the post-recording remastering fracas that inevitably follows, I wanted to solicit recommendations for good general IEM receiver equipment that can 1) scan frequencies from multiple IEM manufacturers 2) separate the L/R channels correctly, and 3) collect as much (non-noise) background data as possible.  DIY instructions or external links are more than welcome.

[dev0n]

search will reveal plenty

Search mostly revealed a lot of questions about specific brands to use for wired in-field monitoring of recordings, nothing regarding what I'm looking for: didn't find any wireless IEM monitoring equipment recommendations at all.  Did I miss something?

As for "why" - I think that, aside from the obvious benefit of sound clarity, it would take some of the pressure off the tapers' shoulders in terms of keeping the gear unobtrusive and out of sight, and would enable them to enjoy the show more not having the recording quality dependent on their consistency of position and posture (even if they'll enjoy remastering less later).  Hell, if the Wired article author isn't full of shit, a show can be taped this way by a taper that wasn't even able to get tickets to a show.  I have questions about transmission strength there however ...

[taktheride]

yeah, i've been wondering about this myself.  i think its very clever someone thought up the idea to try and grab the IEM signal.
never heard any IEM shows, but they can't be that bad...

[dnsacks]

My understanding is that the iem mixes are generally customized for each of the performers on the stage and do NOT present a mix that's at all balanced/representative of what's being played

[Ray76]

My understanding is that the iem mixes are generally customized for each of the performers on the stage and do NOT present a mix that's at all balanced/representative of what's being played

Thats exactly right. We use IEMs at work often, and depending on the person, the mix is bulging in some areas, lacking in others. I , for instance want all the instruments but piano out and the bass singers taken out of the monitor completely.

ray

[dev0n]

I am fully prepared for the annoying possibility that I might also have to get an audience recording like normal and drop some content from that and mix the IEM in post-facto, but that would depend entirely on what I hear during sound check :-)  In any event, has anyone heard of DIY Radio Shack schematics for IEM scanners or happened across lists of channel frequency ranges?

[Ray76]

I am fully prepared for the annoying possibility that I might also have to get an audience recording like normal and drop some content from that and mix the IEM in post-facto, but that would depend entirely on what I hear during sound check :-)  In any event, has anyone heard of DIY Radio Shack schematics for IEM scanners or happened across lists of channel frequency ranges?

What makes you interested in IEM taping. ?NOt criticizing, just tryin to learn.

Ray

[dev0n]

What makes you interested in IEM taping. ?NOt criticizing, just tryin to learn.

Pretty much what I told mok3 above - clarity and ease of execution.

BTW so far my research has turned up the following carrier frequencies used by professional-grade IEM manufacturers, some vary according to country:

Nady PEM500 - 694.300 - 704.300 MHz
Nady E03 - 72.1 - 75.9 MHz
Sennheiser * 450 - 960 MHz
Shure P2T - 518.750 - 553.250 MHz
Shure P4T - 722-865 MHz
Shure P6T - 626.475 - 656.500 MHz
Shure P7T - 524 - 746 MHz

[Gordon]

yeah, i've been wondering about this myself.  i think its very clever someone thought up the idea to try and grab the IEM signal.
never heard any IEM shows, but they can't be that bad...

I have a couple of dmb shows done this way and I think they suck.  very, very strange mix and you can hear them talk to each other/board guy etc.

[rockumal]

Taping the IEM feed is too much like eavsdropping to me.  You're not "just" snagging music but often private banter between bandmembers as well.

[Tim]

just make usre your efforts don't give tapers a bad name, in any conceivable way, because what your proposing is right on the edge.

a lot of people feel that it is over the line. Ask some of the legit DMB tapers on this board what they think about this. Scott? George? Nick?

[nickgregory]

just make usre your efforts don't give tapers a bad name, in any conceivable way, because what your proposing is right on the edge.

a lot of people feel that it is over the line. Ask some of the legit DMB tapers on this board what they think about this. Scott? George? Nick?

put clearly, you are risking the open taping policy of any band you do this to...the DMB folks got so pissed they have the ability to triangulate on the location getting the signal, and they can locate you....or get close, and in the case of another taper on this board, think he has the IEM in his bag (even though he doesnt) start rifling thorugh his bag knocking levels off, etc...just to find it...

bottom line, dumb idea, the risk is losing taping priveleges for bands...

I have also heard, but have not verified, since you are intercepting a FCC band signal you could be accused of a felony...not sure about that though

[dev0n]

put clearly, you are risking the open taping policy of any band you do this to...the DMB folks got so pissed they have the ability to triangulate on the location getting the signal, and they can locate you....

Well I can see how they could triangulate the transmitter, but not a small receiver.  A receiver doesn't give off a signal to triangulate ... and if you're outside the venue it would be a moot point anyway.

I have also heard, but have not verified, since you are intercepting a FCC band signal you could be accused of a felony...not sure about that though

I'm not sure what an FCC-band signal is, but I'm reasonably certain that the frequencies that I've seen thus far carried by IEM devices aren't covered under any law banning interception (like cellular phone frequencies for example).  Every unencrypted transmission using unprotected frequencies is fair game for anyone to receive.  I have radio equipment that came stock from the manufacturer able to intercept those frequencies.

[Tim]

quote]Hell, if the Wired article author isn't full of shit, a show can be taped this way by a taper that wasn't even able to get tickets to a show.

fwiw - taping the iem feeds from outside the venue was not an uncommon occurance and Grateful Dead shows

[Tim]

yeah, i've been wondering about this myself. i think its very clever someone thought up the idea to try and grab the IEM signal.
never heard any IEM shows, but they can't be that bad...

monitor mixes are VERY specific to the musician, they don't sound anything like what a regular mix for the room sounds like. the mixes can vary *widely*... sometimes it will just be the instrument of whichever musician you happen to be capturing at the moment. Monitor mixes are customized to each musician onstage to allow them to hear whatever they personally need to hear in order to perform. Rarely will they want a balanced mix of all of the instruments, more likely they will want a mix heavy on their instrument and a little of the other instruments filled in, sometimes entire instruments will be left out.

so yes, they can be that bad

[scb]

>>Well I can see how they could triangulate the transmitter, but not a small receiver.<<

you're sure about this?  you're sure there's no RF signal coming form the receiver that can be located unless you know how to turn it off?


i've been fucked too many times to count by people running IEMs somewhere in the venue and having security hassle ME because of it looking for the box.  

i have no problems turning you in if you run an IEM box.  

[dev0n]

you're sure about this?  you're sure there's no RF signal coming form the receiver that can be located unless you know how to turn it off?

Hey I don't pretend to be "sure" about anything.  I will say that, as far as I know, the only way to triangulate the location of an electronic device not doing any transmitting is with extremely sensitive equipment that intelligence agencies are more likely to spend exorbitant amounts on than a rock band, and they would have no idea what the IF of your device would be, so they wouldn't know where in the noisy-ass spectrum to look.  And in any event, the way that you "turn it off" would be removing the power source.

Besides, I was leaning toward being outside the venue anyway.  At least that's how I will probably test rigs until I settle on something I like.

i have no problems turning you in if you run an IEM box.

Aw, now that's just unsociable :-)

[Steve J]

I am fully prepared for the annoying possibility that I might also have to get an audience recording like normal and drop some content from that and mix the IEM in post-facto

I can guarantee that you will be doing this, unless you're doing it for one person playing solo with a guitar or a piano or something. I've heard feeds that come from these signals; and as Tim wrote, each mix is different for each musician. And if you have multiple vocalists singing lead, wouldn't that necessitate multiple receivers into a multitrack recorder?

Out of curiosity, I have a question on the practical side of actually getting the job done. I've never used wireless xmtrs/receivers, even when I did play in bands. Do the xmtrs send a digital signal to the receiver; and if so, is a 'decoder' of sorts necessary? Though you know the frequency of say, a Shure wireless system, would it require a specific Shure receiver in order to decode the signal?

[dev0n]

Though you know the frequency of say, a Shure wireless system, would it require a specific Shure receiver in order to decode the signal?

That's a damned good question, and I've spoken this eve to people that have IEM-recorded Nine Inch Nails, U2, and others at various times, and they assure me that this is not the case.  I would theorize that signal security is not a huge issue for musicians, so there is no real reason to encrypt or scramble the rf signal.

[Scuba Jeremy]

I've seen some of this stuff in action. Signal strength varies by band, venue and even the weather. Line of sight to the transmitter is key. As everyone else has mentioned, every band and band member uses monitors in different ways, so just being able to "sniff out" a signal is not going to guarantee a quality recording. And then there are the one or two times you might get lucky.

I'm also of the opinion that recording this way jeapordizes legitimate taping policies. Therefore, I do not support wirelessly taping bands that have policies against receivers. However, for bands that do not allow any taping at all, this can be a very convinient way to go home with a tape, even though a proper AUD will sound better to most people. I don't see how this is any different from sneaking in mics and a DAT, the only exception being the between song banter that can be picked up. That stuff should not be shared openly. It should also be mentioned that those one or two very clear tapes might be considered easily bootleggable, so trading them out in the open is even less attractive when you think about some asshole on eBay selling such unauthorized recordings.

For those that have never heard an IEM recording, I have a sample from a Jimmy Buffett show last summer. The quality is VERY good for an IEM, so do understand that these results are not typical. This is just an example of a good day at the races, so to speak.

Again, taping bands with legitimate polices will jeapordize open taping for everyone, so don't be that guy. That's something everyone should be able to agree with. The gray area of bands that don't allow any taping, you'll find many opinions. And I won't offer any other insight on the "how to's", but just know that the internet is a great wide place, and you can find any kind of information that you would want to know if you look around a bit.

[dunebug81]

Ive heard some songs from the NIN Fresno show taped off of Trents IEM and its ok.  If it were mixed with a good aud. source that would be a pretty sweet mix.  Ill still take a good aud over an oddly mixed IEM recording.

Now what about ALDs?  Ive thought about getting one but I dont want to be "that guy" who uses it just to record from it and in the process screw someone out of it that may actually need it.  Perhaps if I were to get one of my own boxes...but it just seems like more trouble than its worth.

[Steve J]

Now what about ALDs?

OK...ALDS recording is where a lot more people in the taping community will go off on you. If you do a search TS.com, you'll find (I think you can still find) some very heated remarks from a number of people against the practice of ALDS recording.

[nickgregory]

justify it as you want, if you do it for bands with open policies you are putting that open policy at risk....seems a big price to pay for a shitty recording...

[Lester Flatts]

For those that have never heard an IEM recording, I have a sample from a Jimmy Buffett show last summer. The quality is VERY good for an IEM, so do understand that these results are not typical. This is just an example of a good day at the races, so to speak.

Wow, that sounds MUCH better than I would have thought.

I am heavily invested into the radio listening hobby, but my interests lie mostly in the military and civilian air arena.  It is illegal to decrypt encrypted signals.  It is illegal to intercept portable and cellular telephone signals.  That's it.  Everything else is fair game.  Once the signal leaves the transmitter, it belongs to no one.  I'm not talking about the content of the signal.  It is illegal for one who intercepts and hears a signal to discuss (share) that signal's content with anyone who didn't hear that signal.  I know, it's arcane, but if I told my wife what I heard one of the Eglin AFB fighters say, I guess technically I have broken the law.  It's all academic; if the military doesn't want me to hear something, they have the ability to encrypt the hell out of it.

I would guess that the IEM signals are NOT encrypted, just too much to deal with, so that makes them fair to intercept.  Depending on the size of the band, you would have several different freqs to choose from, and then have to decide which was best.  I don't know of any portable radio receivers that output in stereo, they may exist, so you would have to have an industry specific receiver- ie what the band has, and you would have to have the ability to search freqs.

As far as being locatable, I have a hard time believing that a receiver can be triangulated.  Some of the radio equipment I have is referred to as "frequency counters."  These are highly sensitive receivers that are used to detect low-power transmissions from radios.  I have never had them detect a signal from another receiver.  All receivers do put out a small oscillated signal, but to have band security triangulate that is sci-fi.  I doubt that they have the resources to purchase and train personnel on how to use the type of equipment the intelligence community has for this type of thing.

I don't know how I feel about IEM taping, I would think you'd get better, more consistent results from mics. I default to the position that it is probably hurtful to taping.  Just as with all technology, the ethics are the difficult part.   I suppose if you couldn't get into a venue, it'd be a cool way to listen to a show.  The band takes the risk by using the technology, just as I do when ordering gear online.  Again, I'm not talking about intelletual property, just the signal.

[scb]

Hey I don't pretend to be "sure" about anything.  I will say that, as far as I know, the only way to triangulate the location of an electronic device not doing any transmitting is with extremely sensitive equipment that intelligence agencies are more likely to spend exorbitant amounts on than a rock band, and they would have no idea what the IF of your device would be, so they wouldn't know where in the noisy-ass spectrum to look.  And in any event, the way that you "turn it off" would be removing the power source.

again, you're assuming that it's not doing any transmitting...

[redbook]

what's the moral difference between taping audience or IEM shows to a band who are against taping at all?

[nickgregory]

what's the moral difference between taping audience or IEM shows to a band who are against taping at all?

I dont have as much a problem of IEM'ing shows that are anti taping, I was merely referring to shows of bands with open taping policies and people IEM'ing their shows putting the policy at risk...

ALDs are wrong from a moral perspective in my opinion.

[dev0n]

In the interest of preserving the S/N ratio of this thread, perhaps this is a good time to repeat my original question before we all break out our copies of the Code of Hammurabi, the Ten Commandments, the sermon on the mount, and Roe v. Wade :-)

Anyone have "recommendations for good general IEM receiver equipment that can 1) scan frequencies from multiple IEM manufacturers 2) separate the L/R channels correctly and 3) collect as much (non-noise) background data as possible.  DIY instructions or external links are more than welcome."

I haven't mentioned which bands I'm interested in, what their taping policies are, what circumstances under which I would tape in such a fashion (assuming I would, which is a huge assumption), and what the disposition of the result would be.  This is an equipment recommendation question, nothing more.

[Ray76]

Im not bashing at all, just a question for my own knowledge. What makes this method easier than flying mics or getting a SBD patch, given the ethical questions it raises potentially, and the obvious drawbacks in the sound quality.??

Just learnin.

[Brian Skalinder]

Anyone have "recommendations for good general IEM receiver equipment that can 1) scan frequencies from multiple IEM manufacturers 2) separate the L/R channels correctly and 3) collect as much (non-noise) background data as possible. DIY instructions or external links are more than welcome."

I'm guessing most people here don't have the foggiest idea about IEM equipment since our goal is generally to capture high quality ambient recordings.  IEM equipment doesn't support that goal, so I'm not surprised no one here has much experience with IEM gear.  Maybe try a post on DAT-Heads?

[Ray76]

In the interest of preserving the S/N ratio of this thread, perhaps this is a good time to repeat my original question before we all break out our copies of the Code of Hammurabi, the Ten Commandments, the sermon on the mount, and Roe v. Wade :-)

Anyone have "recommendations for good general IEM receiver equipment that can 1) scan frequencies from multiple IEM manufacturers 2) separate the L/R channels correctly and 3) collect as much (non-noise) background data as possible.  DIY instructions or external links are more than welcome."

I haven't mentioned which bands I'm interested in, what their taping policies are, what circumstances under which I would tape in such a fashion (assuming I would, which is a huge assumption), and what the disposition of the result would be.  This is an equipment recommendation question, nothing more.

http://www.music123.com/Shure-P4R-In-Ear-Monitor-Receiver-i79690.music

I just called our sound chief, and this is the model reciever we use with our shure mics. OUr jazz band uses these , for the four vocalists mainly. OUr sound guy is a pro, so he generally gets the best, so this may be worth lookin into

Ray

[dev0n]

http://www.music123.com/Shure-P4R-In-Ear-Monitor-Receiver-i79690.music

Sweet - I have those on my frequency list.  I will certainly check into them and see what they look like on the rf spectrum.  In answer to your previous question, most of the bands that I would be interested in taping like this don't have a stance one way or the other on taping, but soundboard patches are almost unheard of for them.  Not that I don't drool at the thought though ...

[dev0n]

and three pages later,... no ones offered any advice in direct regard to your question. And this is the way these threads typically end.

So if I came up with some good recommendations through my own research and experimentation, would anyone be interested in hearing about it or should I save it for somewhere else?  I don't want to inflame too much emotion, me being a newb and all :-)

[redbook]

Im not bashing at all, just a question for my own knowledge. What makes this method easier than flying mics or getting a SBD patch, given the ethical questions it raises potentially, and the obvious drawbacks in the sound quality.??

Just learnin.

I guess IEM taping is only useful when no open taping is allowed.
There is no reason to tape the IEM source when you can get a SBD patch

[redbook]

you tell me,....
I'm the one who here speaks out constantly against stealth recordings going out on the internet d/l sites, because I feel its detrimental to tapers.

I can understand you are against massive d/l sites, but what do you think about stealth tapers?
Are they evil tapers, too?

[Ray76]

Im not bashing at all, just a question for my own knowledge. What makes this method easier than flying mics or getting a SBD patch, given the ethical questions it raises potentially, and the obvious drawbacks in the sound quality.??

Just learnin.

I guess IEM taping is only useful when no open taping is allowed.
There is no reason to tape the IEM source when you can get a SBD patch

Thanks Fellas. I personally would love to see more info on it. I never would do it personally, but from a knowledge standpoint, itd be very interesting. Thanks+T
ray

[redbook]

I see people critizising IEM tapers, and I understand them from a open taper point of view, but I can't see any moral difference between IEM and stealth audiences.

Unfortunately for me 90% of european bands are against taping.
I consider taping stealth shows for personal enjoyment (and trading with fellow tapers) is not inmoral, and if I ever can manage to do an IEM recording and mix it with a nice
audience source I won't feel myself the evil.

[Tim]

Now what about ALDs?

OK...ALDS recording is where a lot more people in the taping community will go off on you. If you do a search TS.com, you'll find (I think you can still find) some very heated remarks from a number of people against the practice of ALDS recording.

I've done it twice and I will never do it again.

The ALD's are very easily traced, the 2nd time I tried this the bands road manager walked right up to my seat and grabbed me and the ALD box.

I was young and stupid, I would never do it again. The ALD's are there for people with an actual disability and we shouldn't be exploiting them so we can make tapes.

[bgalizio]

I've asked this question before, but thought I'd pose it here again - what about ALD taping for someone like me, who is hearing impaired and often uses an ALD for outdoor shows?

[Tim]

that's a personal values judgment that you will have to make on your own

Most of us are not similiarly situated and as such I don't think we're really in a position to comment one way or another.

my $0.02

[bgalizio]

Fair enough. FWIW, I haven't yet used that "stealth" option, and probably won't unless I know it's going to be a smoking show.

[Scuba Jeremy]

Im not bashing at all, just a question for my own knowledge. What makes this method easier than flying mics or getting a SBD patch, given the ethical questions it raises potentially, and the obvious drawbacks in the sound quality.??

Just learnin.

It is only beneficial in stealth tactics, especially for bands that do not allow taping. Concealability (if that is a word) is a big factor. No noticable wires coming down from the back of a baseball cap. No requirement to be in the "sweet spot". No needing to worry about the proximity of microphones to loud obnoxious teenage girls, or the Clapping Guy. I've taped plenty of local shows via the tried and true "stealth microphone" method, and the results have been better than no tape at all, but not as enjoyable as those I've made with my larger, stationary mics. Actually, I take that back. I did make one very sweet Barenaked Ladies tape a few New Years Eves ago with my SP-CMC-4s and my road weary Sharp MD deck. But beyond all that, the audible drawbacks of taping via IEM receievers do not outweigh the benefits of sneaking around with concealed microphones. I would consider it an interesting experiment, but not a total replacement for ambient recording.

[dev0n]

I would consider it an interesting experiment, but not a total replacement for ambient recording.

It is rarely even an augmentation in the best of circumstances from what I hear, and I doubt it could ever completely replace ambient recordings.  I think it makes sense to have an AUD as a backup to an IEM, if for no other reason than to replace certain components in the AUD with the IEM content.  Worst case scenario the IEM is useless for whatever reason and you still have a good audience recording, best case scenario the vocalist wanted all the audio components in his ear and the IEM recording just needs remastering.  The latter has been the case on enough occasions for my acquaintances that I deem it worthwhile to research it more and give it a few tries.

[Ray76]

BTW, wtf is an ALD>??ray

[alienbobz]

I believe the acronym is Assisted Listensing Device. It is a FM reciever from the soundboard. You just have to talk to one of the people at the information desk and they can give you one. Usually don't sound great. Recording can have FM wave issues and the sound can be analog.

[Ray76]

I believe the acronym is Assisted Listensing Device. It is a FM reciever from the soundboard. You just have to talk to one of the people at the information desk and they can give you one. Usually don't sound great. Recording can have FM wave issues and the sound can be analog.

Oh thats what they mean at theatres, when they say hearing impaired people help

+T man thanks

[redbook]

Sound of ALDs is much more "plain" than the IEM ones since they are bringing the frequencies that impaired people can hear, so most of the ALDs lack decent bass.

Can upload a few samples of IEM and ALDs later if you want

[Ray76]

Sound of ALDs is much more "plain" than the IEM ones since they are bringing the frequencies that impaired people can hear, so most of the ALDs lack decent bass.

Can upload a few samples of IEM and ALDs later if you want

i will take your word on that one bud. NOt something I am even remotely interested in doing, but just wanted to see what it was.+T BTW, im in europe too.

Ray

[DP]

I've recently been introduced to sniffing in-ear-monitor transmissions as a taping option, and while I'm still researching the post-recording remastering fracas that inevitably follows, I wanted to solicit recommendations for good general IEM receiver equipment that can 1) scan frequencies from multiple IEM manufacturers  2) separate the L/R channels correctly,  and 3) collect as much (non-noise) background data as possible  4) Besides, I was leaning toward being outside the venue anyway.

1) IEM receivers are specific to models for a designated band of frequencies from a manufacturer. what you are looking for does not exist in practice or even as a theoretical model as far as I know - if you do find such a (sexy) beast, please let me know, as we would love to adopt such a versatile system when we're on tour!

2) See 1). I guess the closest gizmo would perhaps be a scanner capable of stereo decoding. It would not sound good though as it would have a noisy, frequency-limited audio stage, as this gear is not intended for audio applications. More pertinently, scanners would not have the appropriate RF expansion algorithm for the companded signal which is different for every manufacturer and even varies with the model.

3) Sorry, don't understand what is meant by "background data" here.

4) Unlike radio transmissions in the kW range, in-ear transmitters typically put out 10-100 mW at best, and are quite directional. So trying to get this intentionally weak signal from outside would be a pointless exercise. At the very best you will get so many dropouts and RF interference that the recording would not be all that listenable. Besides, wouldn't you feel a pang of conscience for stealing a show without even having supported the artist? And what's the point of recording a live gig if you are not actually there to enjoy the whole visceral experience?! 

Stick to audience recordings if you must tape - the FOH crew has put a lot of time and effort into presenting a sound intended for the audience with the proper balance and mix, so why mess around with an unrepresentative, unbalanced monitor feed that has most of the band missing from it? 

btw, I'm speaking here as an audio enthusiast and fan of live music of course, and not from my work perspective where even stealth audience recordings would be severely frowned upon, especially with all the illegal bootlegging for profit happening on ebay these days (not accusing anyone here of this practice, just stating how management and the record labels feel about this issue).

And I think enough has already been discussed here about the legalities and morals of snooping in on private conversations not intended for public ears...

btw, all receivers do leak out a weak but definite IF signature that can be triangulated with the appropriate gear - and we don't have to have the budget and resources of the NSA to implement such a detection capability - just ask a couple of my colleagues who have worked with Shure on this...so be forewarned! 


DP

[redbook]

DP, you look like you know what are you talking about, but I've heard plenty of IEM recordings done with non specific receivers (ICOM and Alinco brands), and also lots of recordings done from outside the venue.

BTW, one of the great uses of IEM is that you can tape soundcchecks and rehearsals from outside the venue.
This can't be done even with the best mics out there.

[Evil Taper]

you tell me,....
I'm the one who here speaks out constantly against stealth recordings going out on the internet d/l sites, because I feel its detrimental to tapers.

I can understand you are against massive d/l sites, but what do you think about stealth tapers?
Are they evil tapers, too?

Team EVIL is mostly stealth.  Being evil is just more fun...as is the 007 type stuff you do in order to stealth.  My .02 is that a good audience recording sounds better than any soundboard you'll ever hear.  It has a live ambient quality to it that's added by sound play in the room and when you negate that from the recording...well...it's just another soundboard show.  There's definately a more intimate pleasure in listening to a live recording made with mics and I don't really see why anyone into the taping scene would really choose to pass it up.  You'll have alot better time stealthing at crazy shows than you will sitting in your van taping a radio feed.  I imagine that ten minutes into pulling a parkinglot IEM tape you'll be muttering to yourself about how lame it is that you're sitting in your vehicle listening to the radio when there's thousands of people seeing a live show.

[redbook]

I mostly agree with you, but I, like probably all the "IEM supporters" out there, I see IEM recordings as a complement to the audience shows.
An good audience is better than a good IEM, for sure, but why not taking the best of two worlds and get a dual mix?

And of course each thing has its moments. Taping from outside of course is not better than being in the show (taping or not).
But taping a rehearsal or a souncheck could be very interesting and there is no alternative for this (unless you get a sbd patch for the soundcheck, which could be very difficult).

[Evil Taper]

In my eyes, even soundboards are a boring listen.  I don't really have a desire to hear soundboards anymore after getting out there and taping.  Cheesy yes, but there is something much more romantic about an ambient recording.  That's the sound as captured at that single point in time by a single individual.  To me an IEM source is like a broadcast source...it's just not live.  I'm a musician and I really enjoy hearing how instruments react to their environment and the only way to observe this in a recording is hearing how it sounded in the room.  I'm not even sure I enjoy listening to matrix recordings made with full soundboards.  It's just not the same or as personal of an experience.  What I really enjoy about the hobby is that the recordings refliect the individuals who make them, not the sound guy at the venue (of course there are the exceptions where the shows are very poorly mixed in the venue).  This concept is just not something that's very interesting to me unless you were say taping someone like Zakk Wylde whose guitar never seems to be loud enough.  I will say that I preffer Jimi Hendrix soundboards over aud pulls, mainly because of the clarity of the guitar...have yet to hear a really good hendrix aud tape but there might be one out there.  Do what you're gonna do but don't pretend like you made the recording...you dubbed a radio signal.

I do, however, think it's kinda cool that you can record a sound check like this...but then again the sound checks are boring to listen to anyways.  I'll tape them when the bands are doing them before they come on stage but I've never had anyone request them.

[redbook]

Again, I agree with you, but again... why don't get an excellent audience source, and mix it with the IEM source so you can get an even better recording?

And like I said before, some things turn out well and some others not.
Some bands (Stones, U2...) spend two weeks rehearsing in stadiums before they start a big tour.
Capturing those two weeks can be a cool listening experience that can't be done with audience mics.
That's much better than tape a simple soundcheck where the band (or even their technicians) test the instruments.

[Evil Taper]

After you've mixed an IEM recording with a decent stealth aud recording please tell me how great it sounds.  The fact is, you're mixing a poorly mixed recording with an ambient recording with distinct spacial characteristics and balance of sound.  The results are going to be not so hot.  I really don't see how this sort of thing would enhance my listening experience.  From a tapers point of view, I want to hear how other tapers gear perfroms in a given situation.  I guess if you're one of those people who lives for hearing soundboards, go for it.  To me, however, doing this is soiling a pure recording.  BUT....as with any decision you ever make in life.....do it for yourself.  If you really love listening to IEM recording then record them.  It's your life, your money, your time...you don't need someone else to reassure you of it.  If you have moral doubts about it then don't do it.  Get some balls guy

[redbook]

I can understand your point of not supporting iems because they don't feel live, or don't enhance your experience of taper... I can understand and agree with it in some parts, but I can't understand why taping iem is so immoral in non open taping bands.

As you said, if you want, do it yourself, but please respect them as an alternative taping method

[nickgregory]

As you said, if you want, do it yourself, but please respect them as an alternative taping method

actually I disagree with this...it is not an alternate taping method...it is, as staated earlier, dubbing a radio signal....to equate it to taping does the hobby an injustice

[redbook]

actually I disagree with this...it is not an alternate taping method...it is, as staated earlier, dubbing a radio signal....to equate it to taping does the hobby an injustice

It depends on what do you consider on taping.

Technically is obtaining a recording of certain concert. So we can consider this as taping
If you think this as a hobby of capturing live ambience... etc you are right

But that's not the question, I was just trying to say that *sometimes* IEM can bring good results when used with audience sources.

Just that

[bgalizio]

Sound of ALDs is much more "plain" than the IEM ones since they are bringing the frequencies that impaired people can hear, so most of the ALDs lack decent bass.

I hate to shift gears a little again with ALD talk, but any sound tech worth his/her salt will NOT mix an ALD with more high frequencies. Why? Because, as most hearing impaired concert goers will tell you, we use ALD's not to HEAR the music (it's already loud enough for us to hear), but for fine discrimination of the vocals. We can't hear the vocals well if the highs are so shrill. I prefer an ALD to sound just like the sound in the theater would be, but it's busted up right against my ears so I can understand the vocals.

Now, I usually tell the sound tech about my preference prior to attending a concert. Some people still insist on mixing them horribly, but that is usually followed up by a complaint from me about how shrill the sound quality was. I'm considering taping one or two shows (non-taping friendly bands, and I don't have a stealth mic, or any mic, setup yet) from the ALD this summer. We'll see how that turns out. The only thing I'm struggling with is that I use the ALD service anyway, why not run the ALD > JB3 > my ears and record? Well, if they turn out, I'll of course want to spread the show around. That's where things start to get fishy for me - should other people be aware of this? I'd probably just label them as FM sourced, but who knows. I'll wrestle with that when the time comes.

And, most "SBD" shows from U2's Elevation tour were ALD recordings.

[dev0n]

DP, good information, thanks a bunch.  For reference you might be interested in http://www.lithiumnode.com/~devon/fresno_iem.mp3  That was a recording made by another anonymous person with a good receiver and a high-gain antenna, and I don't think any decoding was necessary except maybe MPX.

As for those that contended that IEM is not really being "taping" and being inferior due to the lack of room acoustics and crowd noise, I certainly appreciate the input, but it is safe to say that there are a lot of subjective preferences in there, and we're all different.  I mean, how boring would we be if we were all identical?  :-)  I personally don't see much difference between a microphone picking up ambient sound waves in an enclosed space and a receiver picking up many of the same signals over a radio frequency.  The carrier is the only thing that differs.  I like the energy of the band in a live performance, other aspects are largely secondary to me.

As for the thrill of capturing crowd noise, you all might appreciate this story that explains my position: I apparently recorded a long drawn-out debate by two female attendees at a Tool show (a conversation I did not hear when it took place, but noticed later) as to whether or not they should expose their breasts to Maynard Keenan.  They were arguing that they 1) weren't sure he wasn't gay, and 2) thought their breasts might not be particularly pleasant to look at.  This vacuous nonsense went on for a few minutes and occluded most of Sober, one of my favorite songs.

So that sort of soured me to recording crowd participation :-)

[Evil Taper]

Still, you're making a tape as much as a patcher is.  There's no need to go on and on trying to justify what you want to do to a community of folks who are ambient tapers.  Do your thing and be done with it....by now you've gotten all the help you're going to get here since I don't think there's any active IEM tapers around here...not any who openly hype it at least.  You'd probably have a better time listening to cell phone conversations with your decoder anyway.  So party on dood!

[scb]

>>An good audience is better than a good IEM, for sure, but why not taking the best of two worlds and get a dual mix?<<

i think 1 world sucks


>>Again, I agree with you, but again... why don't get an excellent audience source, and mix it with the IEM source so you can get an even better recording?<<

because i don't think it's better

[Evil Taper]

I guess it's that time of the month

[dev0n]

There's no need to go on and on trying to justify what you want to do to a community of folks who are ambient tapers.

No justifications or attempts at justifications.  Haven't even mentioned any moral or ethical side of this, nor do I intend to.  Technical issues only.  And you're right, this as probably gone as far as its going to go in this forum.

[redbook]

>>An good audience is better than a good IEM, for sure, but why not taking the best of two worlds and get a dual mix?<<
i think 1 world sucks

Do you really think this sucks??
http://www.scubajeremy.net/Buffett/JBuffett2004-08-26D2T11.mp3

I think what some people don't feel ok from IEM tapers is that they are usually a bunch of hoarder, elitist, stupid and arrogant tapers.
You Scott probably know what I'm talking about if you are into U2 scene.

But I, like BigRay and dev0n, am just trying to learn more about this technology.
Don't want to offend anyone

[scb]

>>Do you really think this sucks??
http://www.scubajeremy.net/Buffett/JBuffett2004-08-26D2T11.mp3
<<

i think a good stealth rig in a good location could make something that sounds as good as that


>>I think what some people don't feel ok from IEM tapers is that they are usually a bunch of hoarder, elitist, stupid and arrogant tapers. You Scott probably know what I'm talking about if you are into U2 scene. <<


IEM taping makes us look bad.  that's what i comes down to

[Brian Skalinder]

Do you really think this sucks??
http://www.scubajeremy.net/Buffett/JBuffett2004-08-26D2T11.mp3

Well, yes.  But it all depends on one's perspective and preference, of course.  In that clip I hear:

• vocals so high in the mix they often drown out the instruments
• percussion panned far right, creating a lopsided image that I rapidly find fatiguing
• percussion outright missing or very low in the mix - pretty sure the almost entirely right channel "tss-tss-tss" isn't the only percussion going on throughout the song, but I hear very little other percussion in the mix
• the same flat, lifeless sound I hear in SBD recordings - no sense of space, image, soundstage, energy

Give me an AUD recording over the above any day of the week, thanks.

[kfrinkle]

What he just said... yeah.. I agree 100%.

[gewwang]

Give me an AUD recording over the above any day of the week, thanks.

Try listening to it over some $5 PC speakers. I bet you'll like it more.

[Evil Taper]

Also not impressed....

I guess this also brings up the question about how "live" a sounboard/fm recording really is also.  Sure, they're nice for clarity of all the instruments but they really don't have a live feeling to them.  Will you opt for Frampton Comes Alive or one of the AUD sources from that same gig?  There's a definate differance in the listening experience and is a personal preferrance.  A taper who runs a stealth board recording of non taping bands seems to end up selling the recording to a bootleg company also (for instance, there is not a single SBD Marilyn Manson show ever recorded that isn't pressed and sold by a bootleg company somewhere in the world, that's pretty shitty IMO).

[jcrab66]

I dont have a stance one way or another on the subject however I have heard a couple of Tool IEM's that other than lacking a bit in the lowe end have a very nice mix. Much better than any of the ALD's I've heard...

 The ALD's are there for people with an actual disability and we shouldn't be exploiting them so we can make tapes.

Out of curiosity, when you go to the post office do you always walk up the steps or do you sometimes walk up the ramp that was put there for those  who unfortunately have to use a wheel chair to get around? Just askin.....

[gewwang]

Out of curiosity, when you go to the post office do you always walk up the steps or do you sometimes walk up the ramp that was put there for those  who unfortunately have to use a wheel chair to get around? Just askin.....

Outside of wear and tear on a concrete ramp which is probably negligible, there's no limit to how many people can walk up and down the ramp. The ALD boxes are limited. If you take the last one before the hearing impaired person gets there to request it, then you're impacting the people that really need them.

[jcrab66]

Outside of wear and tear on a concrete ramp which is probably negligible, there's no limit to how many people can walk up and down the ramp. The ALD boxes are limited. If you take the last one before the hearing impaired person gets there to request it, then you're impacting the people that really need them.

if you read his comment you will see that his issue has nothing to do with the number of available devices at a given venue but more with the moral issue of using something that is meant for a handicapped person therefore your comment is moot. Since you brought it up, I have gone to a number of shows with a partially deaf friend of mine and for the record there has always been a large number of available devices that never get used. Alot of hearing impaired people, including my friend, purchase their own ALD receivers. The big arenas usually have way more than neccessary to meet demand. Once again I ask, do you ever walk up the handicapped ramp? Wear and tear have nothing to do with it, the question is are you using a service designed to be used by the handicapped?

[Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan]

Out of curiosity, when you go to the post office do you always walk up the steps or do you sometimes walk up the ramp that was put there for those  who unfortunately have to use a wheel chair to get around? Just askin.....

Outside of wear and tear on a concrete ramp which is probably negligible, there's no limit to how many people can walk up and down the ramp. The ALD boxes are limited. If you take the last one before the hearing impaired person gets there to request it, then you're impacting the people that really need them.

That's why people buy their own...

[gewwang]

As long as it doesn't impact the people who need them, then I don't see any issue with it.

[Brian Skalinder]

if you read his comment you will see that his issue has nothing to do with the number of available devices at a given venue but more with the moral issue of using something that is meant for a handicapped person therefore your comment is moot.

Surely, you jest.  First off, you have misrepresented Tim's statement:

The ALD's are there for people with an actual disability and we shouldn't be exploiting them so we can make tapes.

Tim makes no statement about why we shouldn't exploit the availability of these devices, whether for moral or purely practical reasons.

Second, George made a very good practical point which you so conveniently, and inappropriately, dismissed.  Your handicap ramp analogy addressing this point is fundamentally flawed.  Using the handicap ramp does not prevent wheelchair bound people from using it - the person walking on the ramp can simply clear out and allow the person in the wheelchair to utilize the resource.  Using an ALD device at a concert, would you post an associate at the ALD desk or leave your section and seat number so in case they ran out you may immediately return yours for someone truly in need?  I suspect not.

The big arenas usually have way more than neccessary to meet demand. Once again I ask, do you ever walk up the handicapped ramp? Wear and tear have nothing to do with it, the question is are you using a service designed to be used by the handicapped?

Third, the fact that you've usually seen large arenas with a sufficient supply of ALDs on a given night doesn't mean that [1] they always will on another night during which someone improperly uses an ALD for taping, or [2] that small or mid-sized venues also will always have a surplus supply.  The fact remains, that on any given night in any given venue, you have no idea whether or not people truly in need will require the ALD devices or not, and therefore have no idea whether use inappropriate usage will impact those people.  Once again, I ask:    Using an ALD device at a concert, would you post an associate at the ALD desk or leave your section and seat number so in case they ran out you may immediately return yours for someone truly in need?  And again, I suspect not.

Fourth, tapers purchase all sorts of equipment in order to record concerts.  Why not simply purchase an ALD instead of taking advantage of the pre-existing supply intended for those who are in need?

And finally, if you're unable or unwilling to acknowledge that there is a moral component to taking advantage of this situation, you've got some learning to do, it has nothing to do with taping, and there's nothing we can say here to help you.

Apologies, that last bit was unnecessarily harsh and originated more from my lack of sleep than any points you're attempting to argue.

[Simp-Dawg]

Do you really think this sucks??
http://www.scubajeremy.net/Buffett/JBuffett2004-08-26D2T11.mp3

i think it sucks because it's buffett

[Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan]

Anyone have "recommendations for good general IEM receiver equipment that can 1) scan frequencies from multiple IEM manufacturers 2) separate the L/R channels correctly and 3) collect as much (non-noise) background data as possible. DIY instructions or external links are more than welcome."

I'm guessing most people here don't have the foggiest idea about IEM equipment since our goal is generally to capture high quality ambient recordings.  IEM equipment doesn't support that goal, so I'm not surprised no one here has much experience with IEM gear.  Maybe try a post on DAT-Heads?

I'd venture to guess a large number of tapers here have also recorded from the board too, a board can be (but not always) a great thing when mixed with an ambient recording.  IEM/ALD isn't much different, if different at all.  IMO it's something that should be discussed elsewhere, or at the very least in a private manner.  You can get the equipment elsewhere and not diminish the local venues supply of devices for the hearing impaired (in the case of ALD), to get around that ethical hurdle.  If anyone still considers it ethically wrong, how is it any different than stealth taping bands that do not permit taping?  If given the choice of board OR mics, I'm running the mics, but if given the choice of board AND mics, you better believe I'm getting both.

[Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan]

Second, George made a very good practical point which you so conveniently, and inappropriately, dismissed.  Your handicap ramp analogy addressing this point is fundamentally flawed.  Using the handicap ramp does not prevent wheelchair bound people from using it - the person walking on the ramp can simply clear out and allow the person in the wheelchair to utilize the resource.  Using an ALD device at a concert, would you post an associate at the ALD desk or leave your section and seat number so in case they ran out you may immediately return yours for someone truly in need?  I suspect not.

And if you bring your own device, which are not hard to come by, his analogy is dead on.  The only way i could see it affecting the disabled is if the venue intentionally sends a bad feed or mix because of the recording aspect.  I've heard that it's been done and I wouldn't put it past them, but there is no way to verify that. 

[Brian Skalinder]

And if you bring your own device, which are not hard to come by, his analogy is dead on.

True enough - using one's own ALD device pushes us into the stealth recording ethical discussion, one we need not have again.  But using the devices at the venue intended for those in need makes it an entirely different issue, IMO.

[gewwang]

Second, George made a very good practical point which you so conveniently, and inappropriately, dismissed.  Your handicap ramp analogy addressing this point is fundamentally flawed.  Using the handicap ramp does not prevent wheelchair bound people from using it - the person walking on the ramp can simply clear out and allow the person in the wheelchair to utilize the resource.  Using an ALD device at a concert, would you post an associate at the ALD desk or leave your section and seat number so in case they ran out you may immediately return yours for someone truly in need?  I suspect not.

Thanks for pointing that out, Brian. In this case, I deferred my knowledge in the area of using someone else's disabilities to my benefit. There seem to be alot of experts in that field on this thread so no need for my comments.

[Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan]

What's a good time to plant your tomato plants? It's May 18th, I'm in south-eastern Ohio, did I miss it?  I'd hate to miss the full potential from my plants due to poor planning in reguards to growing season.

[dmonterisi]

In my view, I'm against anyone using an ALD to record a show for a number of reasons.  first, yea as george and others have said, it could take away the last ALD that someone actually needs to hear the show.  but the bigger issue to me is just the morality of taking advantage of disabilities just to pull a tape.  It's just wrong in and of itself, not for any other reason.  in the same way that selecting disabled tickets off of ticketmaster to get into a sold out show is just wrong as well.  We should not be taking advantage of accomodations made for disabled people just so that we can get into a concert or especially not to pull a tape.  additionally, if this becomes a bigger problem, there's a chance that bands will stop offering ALDs altogether or impose stricter requirements on getting them.  I wouldn't want it to be that people with disabilities now have to go and get some sort of disabled ID card or bring a doctor's note just to be able to get the ALD at a show.  People in society are already insensitive enough toward the disabled and do their best to differentiate them and look down upon them.  we don't need to be doing anything to possibly make it worse.

jcrabb66, the concrete ramp analogy is quite possibly in the top-5 stupidest things i've ever seen posted on ts.com.  -T for being a complete asshole.

[Ray76]

tomatoes are sexy sometimes.

[Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan]

Male tomato 

[Tim]

Out of curiosity, when you go to the post office do you always walk up the steps or do you sometimes walk up the ramp that was put there for those who unfortunately have to use a wheel chair to get around? Just askin.....

that's a piss poor analogy.

do you park in the handicap spots?

EDIT: I see Brian has done a masterful job of explaining my position.

[Brian]

I'm also of the opinion that recording this way jeapordizes legitimate taping policies. Therefore, I do not support taping bands that have policies against receivers.

H
Y
P
O
C
R
I
T
E

[Tim]

In my view, I'm against anyone using an ALD to record a show for a number of reasons. first, yea as george and others have said, it could take away the last ALD that someone actually needs to hear the show. but the bigger issue to me is just the morality of taking advantage of disabilities just to pull a tape. It's just wrong in and of itself, not for any other reason. in the same way that selecting disabled tickets off of ticketmaster to get into a sold out show is just wrong as well. We should not be taking advantage of accomodations made for disabled people just so that we can get into a concert or especially not to pull a tape. additionally, if this becomes a bigger problem, there's a chance that bands will stop offering ALDs altogether or impose stricter requirements on getting them. I wouldn't want it to be that people with disabilities now have to go and get some sort of disabled ID card or bring a doctor's note just to be able to get the ALD at a show. People in society are already insensitive enough toward the disabled and do their best to differentiate them and look down upon them. we don't need to be doing anything to possibly make it worse.

jcrabb66, the concrete ramp analogy is quite possibly in the top-5 stupidest things i've ever seen posted on ts.com. -T for being a complete asshole.

I'm with Damon 100%

[Brian]

tomatoes ain't working ehh?
take that you bastards!

well, clearly, I can't compete with that

peace and love brahs!

In my view, I'm against anyone using an ALD to record a show for a number of reasons. first, yea as george and others have said, it could take away the last ALD that someone actually needs to hear the show. but the bigger issue to me is just the morality of taking advantage of disabilities just to pull a tape. It's just wrong in and of itself, not for any other reason. in the same way that selecting disabled tickets off of ticketmaster to get into a sold out show is just wrong as well. We should not be taking advantage of accomodations made for disabled people just so that we can get into a concert or especially not to pull a tape. additionally, if this becomes a bigger problem, there's a chance that bands will stop offering ALDs altogether or impose stricter requirements on getting them. I wouldn't want it to be that people with disabilities now have to go and get some sort of disabled ID card or bring a doctor's note just to be able to get the ALD at a show. People in society are already insensitive enough toward the disabled and do their best to differentiate them and look down upon them. we don't need to be doing anything to possibly make it worse.

PLUS-F*CKIN-T

[The Gambler]

Real love is the only thing I know
It changes everything it touches
It gets you in it's gentle clutches
But that's not really the heart of the matter

Everbody, every now and then
We'll say that they can use
Some solitude
Even though you've said it kinda rude
That's not really the heart of the matter

I think that really the heart of the matter
Isn't that you're going away to think and be alone
I think you feel
Your love for me is gone
I think that's really the heart of the matter after all

Darling, I know every now and then
some nights I lay real easy on your mind
You might hold your pillow you might cry
That's not really the heart of the matter

I think that really the heart of the matter
Isn't that you're going away to think and be alone
I think you feel
Your love for me is gone
I think that's really the heart of the matter after all

Yes I thinks that's really the heart of the matter
After all

[Sam Malone]

Real love is the only thing I know
It changes everything it touches
It gets you in it's gentle clutches
But that's not really the heart of the matter

Everbody, every now and then
We'll say that they can use
Some solitude
Even though you've said it kinda rude
That's not really the heart of the matter

I think that really the heart of the matter
Isn't that you're going away to think and be alone
I think you feel
Your love for me is gone
I think that's really the heart of the matter after all

Darling, I know every now and then
some nights I lay real easy on your mind
You might hold your pillow you might cry
That's not really the heart of the matter

I think that really the heart of the matter
Isn't that you're going away to think and be alone
I think you feel
Your love for me is gone
I think that's really the heart of the matter after all

Yes I thinks that's really the heart of the matter
After all

that there deserves a beer

[Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan]

Real love is the only thing I know
It changes everything it touches
It gets you in it's gentle clutches
But that's not really the heart of the matter

Everbody, every now and then
We'll say that they can use
Some solitude
Even though you've said it kinda rude
That's not really the heart of the matter

I think that really the heart of the matter
Isn't that you're going away to think and be alone
I think you feel
Your love for me is gone
I think that's really the heart of the matter after all

Darling, I know every now and then
some nights I lay real easy on your mind
You might hold your pillow you might cry
That's not really the heart of the matter

I think that really the heart of the matter
Isn't that you're going away to think and be alone
I think you feel
Your love for me is gone
I think that's really the heart of the matter after all

Yes I thinks that's really the heart of the matter
After all

that there deserves a beer

Sammy, where's Cliff?

[Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan]

Out of curiosity, when you go to the post office do you always walk up the steps or do you sometimes walk up the ramp that was put there for those who unfortunately have to use a wheel chair to get around? Just askin.....

that's a piss poor analogy.

do you park in the handicap spots?

EDIT: I see Brian has done a masterful job of explaining my position.

Parking in the spot would be going to a show and checking out an ALD, bringing in your own ALD reciever would be walking up the ramp.

I don't think the analogy is that far off. 

[CliffClavin]

Real love is the only thing I know
It changes everything it touches
It gets you in it's gentle clutches
But that's not really the heart of the matter

Everbody, every now and then
We'll say that they can use
Some solitude
Even though you've said it kinda rude
That's not really the heart of the matter

I think that really the heart of the matter
Isn't that you're going away to think and be alone
I think you feel
Your love for me is gone
I think that's really the heart of the matter after all

Darling, I know every now and then
some nights I lay real easy on your mind
You might hold your pillow you might cry
That's not really the heart of the matter

I think that really the heart of the matter
Isn't that you're going away to think and be alone
I think you feel
Your love for me is gone
I think that's really the heart of the matter after all

Yes I thinks that's really the heart of the matter
After all

that there deserves a beer

i second that one there Sammy. All this talk of ethics and morals reminds me of a fact I learned just the other day.The seven deadly sins (sins serious enough to kill one's soul) are currently anger, envy, pride, sloth, lust, gluttony, and covetousness. They haven't always been so, however. Originally, there were eight deadly sins (as proposed by King  Avagrius of Pontus). The eight  were gluttony, lust, avarice, sadness, anger, apathy, vainglory, and pride. Gregory the Great later decided that vainglory and pride were too much alike to be counted separately and combined them. He added envy. Later still, the Roman Catholic Church decided sadness wasn't a sin, and added sloth. Somewhere along the way, apathy was dropped as well.Thats a fact there.
Drink up fellas!

[CarlaTortelli]

Why don't you shut up and drink yer beer before I practice one-a-them deadly sins on your hide.

[Simp-Dawg]

it only took about 7 pages to bring out the trolls with this one.  nice work!

[Brian]

aren't all of those Tim anyway?

[Tim]

aren't all of those Tim anyway?

I wish... Cliff Clavin is my favorite, that takes some work

[Brian]

aren't all of those Tim anyway?

I wish... Cliff Clavin is my favorite, that takes some work

every single one of his posts are pure gold!   always has me chuckling

[dev0n]

it only took about 7 pages to bring out the trolls with this one.

Dude, check back to like page one!  :-)

[jcrab66]

that's a piss poor analogy.

do you park in the handicap spots?

A. No, i sure dont. Do you?

B. Why is it a piss poor analogy? You have a moral problem with using something that was meant for people with disabilities. Why dont you just answer the question. Keep in mind I have never IEM'd or ALD'd and dont really have a position one way or the other on the matter but if your gonna get all righteous about it because of some moral issue than make sure you follow your grand morals in all aspects of life, not just taping, lest you be tagged a hypocrite.... -T to all the ass kissers who are afraid to speak their minds on here for fear of getting the "dreaded" -T

[Norm Peterson]

that there deserves a beer

I remember that stuff. Better give me a tall one in case I like it.

[Ray76]

dance tomatoes, dance!

[The Gambler]

You've painted up your lips
And rolled and curled your tinted hair
Ruby are you contemplating
Going out somewhere
The shadow on the wall
Tells me the sun is going down
Oh Ruby
Don't take your love to town

It wasn't me
That started that old crazy Asian war
But I was proud to go
And do my patriotic chore
And yes, it's true that
I'm not the man I used to be
Oh, Ruby I still need some company

Its hard to love a man
Whose legs are bent and paralysed
And the wants and the needs of a woman your age
Ruby I realize,
But it won't be long i've heard them say until I not around
Oh Ruby
Don't take your love to town

She's leaving now cause
I just heard the slamming of the door
The way I know I've heard it
Some 100 times before
And if I could move I'd get my gun
And put her in the ground
Oh Ruby
Don't take your love to town

Oh Ruby for God's sake turn around

[jcrab66]

Second, George made a very good practical point which you so conveniently, and inappropriately, dismissed.  Your handicap ramp analogy addressing this point is fundamentally flawed.  Using the handicap ramp does not prevent wheelchair bound people from using it - the person walking on the ramp can simply clear out and allow the person in the wheelchair to utilize the resource.  Using an ALD device at a concert, would you post an associate at the ALD desk or leave your section and seat number so in case they ran out you may immediately return yours for someone truly in need?  I suspect not.

It's nice to see the know all end all of knowledge chime in here. I'm glad my analogy is fundamentally flawed in your expert opinion. Evidently you are not looking at the overall moral question of exploiting the handicapped  by using that which was designed to be used by them. Thats what I'm looking at. Also, I never said I have bothered getting an ALD receiver however if I did feel like getting one and for some bizarre reason they needed it back I certainly would return it since I prefer an AUD recording anyways....

[sygdwm]

now all we need are frasier and woody to chime in. +t to all the trolls. cliff takes the cake though. too funny.

[jcrab66]

And finally, if you're unable or unwilling to acknowledge that there is a moral component to taking advantage of this situation, you've got some learning to do, it has nothing to do with taping, and there's nothing we can say here to help you.

Apologies, that last bit was unnecessarily harsh and originated more from my lack of sleep than any points you're attempting to argue.

Hmm, I really dont know how to respond to such harsh words. What you need to know is I dont need to learn anything from you or anyone else on this board regarding morals. I am a middle aged adult man. I have had plenty of time to develop a strong set of morals. In case you had difficulty reading what I actually wrote let me just reiterate, I took no postion either way on the matter. What I did take a postion on is people spouting moral opinions about an issue but then they only follow the issue when it suits them. All I did was pose a question there Socrates, surely you understand that. By the way, the only reason I even responded to the comment was because if you really were trying to apologize for that drivel you would of edited it out of the post all together. Peace

[Norm Peterson]

now all we need are frasier and woody to chime in. +t to all the trolls. cliff takes the cake though. too funny.

Cut the small talk and get me another beer.

[Brian Skalinder]

It's nice to see the know all end all of knowledge chime in here.

No one person here is the know-all end-all of knowledge.  That's what makes TS and similar forums great - the distributed wealth of knowledge and experience shared openly among members both old and new.

I'm glad my analogy is fundamentally flawed in your expert opinion.

Indeed, it is flawed, and I suggest that it isn't merely my opinion.

Evidently you are not looking at the overall moral question of exploiting the handicapped  by using that which was designed to be used by them. Thats what I'm looking at.

I, too, am looking at the broader picture, but perhaps from a more practical perspective.  The way in which one uses that which was designed for the handicapped determines, in part, whether the non-handicapped are simply utilizing or exploiting.  Usage in and of itself does not constitute exploitation.  To reference your example, and as I've already noted a bit more briefly, my using the concrete handicapped ramp at my local post office does not in and of itself constitute exploitation in my opinion.

Also, I never said I have bothered getting an ALD receiver

And I never suggested you have or would get an ALD receiver.  I was merely speaking hypothetically to make a point.

however if I did feel like getting one and for some bizarre reason they needed it back I certainly would return it since I prefer an AUD recording anyways....

But supposing you did, how would you know from a practical standpoint the venue needed the ALD returned for someone truly in need?  You wouldn't.  And we're agreed on at least one thing - we both prefer AUD recordings.

Hmm, I really dont know how to respond to such harsh words.

You seem to have fared just fine in response, which we'll move to now...

What you need to know is I dont need to learn anything from you or anyone else on this board regarding morals. I am a middle aged adult man. I have had plenty of time to develop a strong set of morals.

Bully for you!  I don't know you, but I'll gladly give you the benefit of the doubt - that's one of the reasons I struck my last comment.

In case you had difficulty reading what I actually wrote let me just reiterate, I took no postion either way on the matter. What I did take a postion on is people spouting moral opinions about an issue but then they only follow the issue when it suits them. All I did was pose a question there Socrates, surely you understand that.

Another reason I struck my last comment.  I thought it best to simply address your question without making assumptions about your particular views.

By the way, the only reason I even responded to the comment was because if you really were trying to apologize for that drivel you would of edited it out of the post all together.

I fully intended my as sincere.  But rather than whitewash everything by removing it entirely, I chose to strike instead of delete.  I, like most people here, post drivel every so often.  Once it's out there, I'm of the belief that I should not take it away outright, much as I couldn't delete the comment if we engaged in dialogue verbally instead of electronically.

Peace

Save the whales.