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Author Topic: In-Ear-Monitor Taping  (Read 28059 times)

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Offline scb

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Re: In-Ear-Monitor Taping
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2005, 11:24:03 PM »
>>Well I can see how they could triangulate the transmitter, but not a small receiver.<<

you're sure about this?  you're sure there's no RF signal coming form the receiver that can be located unless you know how to turn it off?


i've been fucked too many times to count by people running IEMs somewhere in the venue and having security hassle ME because of it looking for the box.  

i have no problems turning you in if you run an IEM box.  

Offline dev0n

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Re: In-Ear-Monitor Taping
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2005, 11:39:49 PM »
you're sure about this?  you're sure there's no RF signal coming form the receiver that can be located unless you know how to turn it off?

Hey I don't pretend to be "sure" about anything.  I will say that, as far as I know, the only way to triangulate the location of an electronic device not doing any transmitting is with extremely sensitive equipment that intelligence agencies are more likely to spend exorbitant amounts on than a rock band, and they would have no idea what the IF of your device would be, so they wouldn't know where in the noisy-ass spectrum to look.  And in any event, the way that you "turn it off" would be removing the power source.

Besides, I was leaning toward being outside the venue anyway.  At least that's how I will probably test rigs until I settle on something I like.

i have no problems turning you in if you run an IEM box.

Aw, now that's just unsociable :-)

Offline Steve J

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Re: In-Ear-Monitor Taping
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2005, 02:07:17 AM »
I am fully prepared for the annoying possibility that I might also have to get an audience recording like normal and drop some content from that and mix the IEM in post-facto

I can guarantee that you will be doing this, unless you're doing it for one person playing solo with a guitar or a piano or something. I've heard feeds that come from these signals; and as Tim wrote, each mix is different for each musician. And if you have multiple vocalists singing lead, wouldn't that necessitate multiple receivers into a multitrack recorder?

Out of curiosity, I have a question on the practical side of actually getting the job done. I've never used wireless xmtrs/receivers, even when I did play in bands. Do the xmtrs send a digital signal to the receiver; and if so, is a 'decoder' of sorts necessary? Though you know the frequency of say, a Shure wireless system, would it require a specific Shure receiver in order to decode the signal?
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Offline dev0n

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Re: In-Ear-Monitor Taping
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2005, 02:21:09 AM »
Though you know the frequency of say, a Shure wireless system, would it require a specific Shure receiver in order to decode the signal?

That's a damned good question, and I've spoken this eve to people that have IEM-recorded Nine Inch Nails, U2, and others at various times, and they assure me that this is not the case.  I would theorize that signal security is not a huge issue for musicians, so there is no real reason to encrypt or scramble the rf signal.

Offline Scuba Jeremy

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Re: In-Ear-Monitor Taping
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2005, 03:46:32 AM »
I've seen some of this stuff in action. Signal strength varies by band, venue and even the weather. Line of sight to the transmitter is key. As everyone else has mentioned, every band and band member uses monitors in different ways, so just being able to "sniff out" a signal is not going to guarantee a quality recording. And then there are the one or two times you might get lucky.

I'm also of the opinion that recording this way jeapordizes legitimate taping policies. Therefore, I do not support wirelessly taping bands that have policies against receivers. However, for bands that do not allow any taping at all, this can be a very convinient way to go home with a tape, even though a proper AUD will sound better to most people. I don't see how this is any different from sneaking in mics and a DAT, the only exception being the between song banter that can be picked up. That stuff should not be shared openly. It should also be mentioned that those one or two very clear tapes might be considered easily bootleggable, so trading them out in the open is even less attractive when you think about some asshole on eBay selling such unauthorized recordings.

For those that have never heard an IEM recording, I have a sample from a Jimmy Buffett show last summer. The quality is VERY good for an IEM, so do understand that these results are not typical. This is just an example of a good day at the races, so to speak.

Again, taping bands with legitimate polices will jeapordize open taping for everyone, so don't be that guy. That's something everyone should be able to agree with. The gray area of bands that don't allow any taping, you'll find many opinions. And I won't offer any other insight on the "how to's", but just know that the internet is a great wide place, and you can find any kind of information that you would want to know if you look around a bit.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2005, 02:59:19 PM by Scuba Jeremy »

Offline dunebug81

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Re: In-Ear-Monitor Taping
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2005, 05:24:14 AM »
Ive heard some songs from the NIN Fresno show taped off of Trents IEM and its ok.  If it were mixed with a good aud. source that would be a pretty sweet mix.  Ill still take a good aud over an oddly mixed IEM recording.

Now what about ALDs?  Ive thought about getting one but I dont want to be "that guy" who uses it just to record from it and in the process screw someone out of it that may actually need it.  Perhaps if I were to get one of my own boxes...but it just seems like more trouble than its worth.
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Offline Steve J

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Re: In-Ear-Monitor Taping
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2005, 05:58:37 AM »
Now what about ALDs?

OK...ALDS recording is where a lot more people in the taping community will go off on you. If you do a search TS.com, you'll find (I think you can still find) some very heated remarks from a number of people against the practice of ALDS recording.
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Offline nickgregory

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Re: In-Ear-Monitor Taping
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2005, 07:24:07 AM »
justify it as you want, if you do it for bands with open policies you are putting that open policy at risk....seems a big price to pay for a shitty recording...

Offline Lester Flatts

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Re: In-Ear-Monitor Taping
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2005, 09:15:16 AM »
For those that have never heard an IEM recording, I have a sample from a Jimmy Buffett show last summer. The quality is VERY good for an IEM, so do understand that these results are not typical. This is just an example of a good day at the races, so to speak.

Wow, that sounds MUCH better than I would have thought.

I am heavily invested into the radio listening hobby, but my interests lie mostly in the military and civilian air arena.  It is illegal to decrypt encrypted signals.  It is illegal to intercept portable and cellular telephone signals.  That's it.  Everything else is fair game.  Once the signal leaves the transmitter, it belongs to no one.  I'm not talking about the content of the signal.  It is illegal for one who intercepts and hears a signal to discuss (share) that signal's content with anyone who didn't hear that signal.  I know, it's arcane, but if I told my wife what I heard one of the Eglin AFB fighters say, I guess technically I have broken the law.  It's all academic; if the military doesn't want me to hear something, they have the ability to encrypt the hell out of it.

I would guess that the IEM signals are NOT encrypted, just too much to deal with, so that makes them fair to intercept.  Depending on the size of the band, you would have several different freqs to choose from, and then have to decide which was best.  I don't know of any portable radio receivers that output in stereo, they may exist, so you would have to have an industry specific receiver- ie what the band has, and you would have to have the ability to search freqs.

As far as being locatable, I have a hard time believing that a receiver can be triangulated.  Some of the radio equipment I have is referred to as "frequency counters."  These are highly sensitive receivers that are used to detect low-power transmissions from radios.  I have never had them detect a signal from another receiver.  All receivers do put out a small oscillated signal, but to have band security triangulate that is sci-fi.  I doubt that they have the resources to purchase and train personnel on how to use the type of equipment the intelligence community has for this type of thing.

I don't know how I feel about IEM taping, I would think you'd get better, more consistent results from mics. I default to the position that it is probably hurtful to taping.  Just as with all technology, the ethics are the difficult part.   I suppose if you couldn't get into a venue, it'd be a cool way to listen to a show.  The band takes the risk by using the technology, just as I do when ordering gear online.  Again, I'm not talking about intelletual property, just the signal.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2005, 09:26:26 AM by Lester Flatts »
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Offline scb

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Re: In-Ear-Monitor Taping
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2005, 09:44:17 AM »

Hey I don't pretend to be "sure" about anything.  I will say that, as far as I know, the only way to triangulate the location of an electronic device not doing any transmitting is with extremely sensitive equipment that intelligence agencies are more likely to spend exorbitant amounts on than a rock band, and they would have no idea what the IF of your device would be, so they wouldn't know where in the noisy-ass spectrum to look.  And in any event, the way that you "turn it off" would be removing the power source.


again, you're assuming that it's not doing any transmitting...




Offline redbook

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Re: In-Ear-Monitor Taping
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2005, 10:01:51 AM »
what's the moral difference between taping audience or IEM shows to a band who are against taping at all?

Offline nickgregory

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Re: In-Ear-Monitor Taping
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2005, 10:15:29 AM »
what's the moral difference between taping audience or IEM shows to a band who are against taping at all?


I dont have as much a problem of IEM'ing shows that are anti taping, I was merely referring to shows of bands with open taping policies and people IEM'ing their shows putting the policy at risk...

ALDs are wrong from a moral perspective in my opinion.

Offline dev0n

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Re: In-Ear-Monitor Taping
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2005, 10:27:36 AM »
In the interest of preserving the S/N ratio of this thread, perhaps this is a good time to repeat my original question before we all break out our copies of the Code of Hammurabi, the Ten Commandments, the sermon on the mount, and Roe v. Wade :-)

Anyone have "recommendations for good general IEM receiver equipment that can 1) scan frequencies from multiple IEM manufacturers 2) separate the L/R channels correctly and 3) collect as much (non-noise) background data as possible.  DIY instructions or external links are more than welcome."

I haven't mentioned which bands I'm interested in, what their taping policies are, what circumstances under which I would tape in such a fashion (assuming I would, which is a huge assumption), and what the disposition of the result would be.  This is an equipment recommendation question, nothing more.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2005, 10:29:26 AM by dev0n »

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Re: In-Ear-Monitor Taping
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2005, 10:32:09 AM »
Im not bashing at all, just a question for my own knowledge. What makes this method easier than flying mics or getting a SBD patch, given the ethical questions it raises potentially, and the obvious drawbacks in the sound quality.??

Just learnin.

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: In-Ear-Monitor Taping
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2005, 10:34:00 AM »
Anyone have "recommendations for good general IEM receiver equipment that can 1) scan frequencies from multiple IEM manufacturers 2) separate the L/R channels correctly and 3) collect as much (non-noise) background data as possible. DIY instructions or external links are more than welcome."

I'm guessing most people here don't have the foggiest idea about IEM equipment since our goal is generally to capture high quality ambient recordings.  IEM equipment doesn't support that goal, so I'm not surprised no one here has much experience with IEM gear.  Maybe try a post on DAT-Heads?
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