Topic: On stage mic positioning?

[it-goes-to-eleven]

M:   Ah. I'd like to have an argument, please.
R:    Certainly sir. Have you been here before?
M:   No, I haven't, this is my first time.
R:     I see. Well, do you want to have just one argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?
M:   Well, what is the cost?
R:    Well, It's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.
M:   Well, I think it would be best if I perhaps started off with just the one and then see how it goes.
R:     Fine. Well, I'll see who's free at the moment.
Pause
R:    Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory.
Ahh yes, Try Mr. Barnard; room 12.
M:    Thank you.

(Walks down the hall. Opens door.)

Q:   WHAT DO YOU WANT?
M:   Well, I was told outside that...
Q:   Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings!
M:   What?
Q:   Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!!
M:   Look, I CAME HERE FOR AN ARGUMENT, I'm not going to just stand...!!
Q:   OH, oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse.
M:   Oh, I see, well, that explains it.
Q:   Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.
M:   Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry.
Q:   Not at all.
M:   Thank You.
(Under his breath) Stupid git!!

(Walk down the corridor)

[todd e]

chris,

even you admitted at the first post that you may get people's panties in a wab, by stating this, so you knew it was coming. 
if i had all of those 'ideal pa' systems at my disposal i would rather them than an onstage, but MOST don't and have to come away with a better sounding tape, if possible.  onstage for a majority of settings, with a band that doesn't have vocal, works for a lot of us.  you may disagree, but we should simply agree to disagree.

[Church-Audio]

my lastest pipe organ recordings will smash your loudest pa recording, flat.

I am talking about a rock band Not a pipe organ how else would you mic a pipe organ but acoustically???


This argument is over no one gets my point so I am taking my toys and going home..

[Church-Audio]

chris,

even you admitted at the first post that you may get people's panties in a wab, by stating this, so you knew it was coming. 
if i had all of those 'ideal pa' systems at my disposal i would rather them than an onstage, but MOST don't and have to come away with a better sounding tape, if possible.  onstage for a majority of settings, with a band that doesn't have vocal, works for a lot of us.  you may disagree, but we should simply agree to disagree.

I knew that yes for sure.. I was just saying that IMO the best stage recording can not compete against the best audience recording with a good PA system for a rock band or any band that has vocals and everything is going thru the PA system.. Thats all..  I think if you dont have a PA system and a good sounding room good sounding mix what choice do you have but to stage tape but when you have a good room with a good sound system and a good mix why would you bother?

[grider]

my lastest pipe organ recordings will smash your loudest pa recording, flat.

I am talking about a rock band Not a pipe organ how else would you mic a pipe organ but acoustically???


This argument is over no one gets my point so I am taking my toys and going home..

+T for ending the round and around and around.... its the weekend people, let's power down and drink!!!

[Church-Audio]

we're just talking two different languages, or perhaps the same language but about two different ideas in this thread it seems; a front of house sound engineer is basically saying that in a good sounding room with a great mix a recording made in the sweet spot can't be beat, and I would probably agree with that; and us tapers are saying that in a shitty sounding room or a room with nowhere to stand or a really loud room or even a good sounding room with a shitty mix, then taping closer to the source, by on stage or stage lip placement, can't be beat; I *think* we can all agree on that; the disagreement seems to arise regarding preferences about *taping in a good sounding room with a good mix and the sweet spot is available*, in which tapers often would often still choose the stage or stage lip and, understandably, an experienced sound engineer like Chris who mixes for a living and stands in the sweet spot would always choose that sweet spot in the room to tape from instead, I see both viewpoints now

Thank you for saying that.. I was just trying to say that when the moon is aligned with the stars and you have a good sounding room with a good sounding PA and you can place your mics somewhere in the middle of the room dead center That you will end up with a very good recording that will beat any stage recording.. for an amplified performance if the mix out front is good and the sound engineer has his act together..

I never get the sweet spot when I mix I am always in the back of the room Unless your Lionel Richie I did a show for him 3 years ago as the system tech it was a corporate show in Toronto Ontario. His sound engineer David Morgan He did a great job he is the same guy that mixes Steely Dan, Paul Simon, Bette Midler. and Many more requested that our console be placed in the center of this small 350 seat theater when your David Morgan you get what you want. The staff at the theater had to remove 15 seats to accommodate our Midas xl4 console 64 input... And all of the effects racks ect.. This happens in big shows in small shows we go where we are told to go and that's it.. I guess it becomes a sweet spot for some engineers because they try and make it sound good at the back of the room. I just try and make it sound good where the people are..

I often get the worst sound... That's another reason why most people don't get good recordings in the back of the room.. I think that having an understanding of room acoustics and looking around at what your situation is can give people an edge with the live recordings they are trying to produce.. All I ever try to do is help. I don't have years of experience as a taper.. Like most of you I have years of experience on the other side of the fence, I only wanted to help some understand what its like from our end of things.. Some people get offended, I am sorry I offended anyone facts are facts in 20 years I have heard much better sound coming from the PA then from the stage... As a matter of fact that's why bands hire me so that they will sound better then they do with out the PA. That's the front of house engineers job... So that's my observation..

In a small club where there is no David Morgan or Chris Church LOL... or good PA system you have no choice but to stage tape.... But when you do have a choice and the sound is good out front and you can get into a good spot nothing can beat that sound. That is the sound the band really wants to hear from you guys.... They want to know what it was like to be out there in the crowd that is something they can never do.. sure that can go and listen to the opening act... But its not the same to them.. When there is no PA then they just want a recording of the performance the way it sounded, with as much clarity as possible.. I will say the main reason I got into making mics and preamps was so that bands I worked with could hear the mix out front and know how it was. Since board tapes don't tell you anything microphones are the only way to capture the event the way it really happened.. That's what you guys are you are our recorders your the proof that on that day Our work as sound engineers was good.  And you captured it. For me what I do is not just science its art...

I wish I had more recordings of shows I have mixed but I don't because I never really bothered. Even now I still don't tape very many of my shows. Some sound engineers hate you guys. They hate you because they are afraid of getting caught with a shitty mix.. And having the band find out they really do suck.. I don't agree with that but its the way they feel... Some bands hate you because they think your going to sell there music. I think you guys perform a service. if it was not for you guys show would disappear into space and never be repeated.. I cant tell you how sad I am all the shows I have done I don't have much of a record of them they are all just memories in my head. I wish I had tapers around to record them. So I say thanks for the work you do. This is my way of thanking you by spending time writing this shit maybe some of you agree maybe not. But maybe one person will listen and maybe I can be lucky enough to pass on what little I know about audio to them. I think that's a good thing to spend time on. Because when I started out no one helped me.

So thanks for your kind words.

Chris Church
 

[todd e]

+T for a good honest discussion, without a flame out..

it's not like i'll forget this, so for that, i guess i can at least think about what you are saying (if nothing more to try and test it in the future)

have a good one.

[NJFunk]

I was just trying to say that when the moon is aligned with the stars and you have a good sounding room with a good sounding PA and you can place your mics somewhere in the middle of the room dead center That you will end up with a very good recording that will beat any stage recording.. for an amplified performance if the mix out front is good and the sound engineer has his act together..

Chris Church
 

That's what you were trying to say when you actually said this?

I personally do not know why ANYONE would run a onstage mic for a amplified performance the sound on stage always sucks!

Where in that statement is it qualified with "you have a good sounding room with a good sounding PA and you can place your mics somewhere in the middle of the room dead center"?  When "you have a good sounding room with a good sounding PA and you can place your mics somewhere in the middle of the room dead center" is not your point but rather is the what you backtracked to when you needed a point that you could actually defend.  This is something that you need to at least acknowledge before I let it go.

[sygdwm]

w/o quoting, i find it funny that the later replies included wanting to hear a ROCK band w/ vocals recorded on stage, where it was clearly stated that recording vocals was never the plan when recording onstage.

[baustin]

I would love to hear a recording of just the stage I don't think anyone has made one that sounds anywhere near as good as a really good front of house mix....  As a matter of fact I will bet the first person who sends me a recording that sounds as good as a out front recording I will give that person a FREE SET OF MY CARDIOID MICS.  Just to Clarify I am only giving away 1 set of mics Not 4,000 sets OK.... So who ever sends me the first recording that I deem to be as good as a out front mix of an amplifyed band meaning EVERYTHING GOING IN TO THE P.A SYSTEM. I will honor my bet... And I will fair an impartial..This mix can only have THE ON STAGE MICS ONLY! NOT JAZZ OR COUNTRY MUST BE ROCK! we all know jazz bands always sound good so does country...


That's the true test. IMO
Chris Church

Truly amazing onstage recordings IMHO. I wish every recording I made could sound like either of these. The onstage Vintage Neumann recording absolutely smokes!

Off the top of my head, grab the Five B4 Funk from each of these shows.

Dr. Bob's onstage Nak's of KVHW 09-19-1999: http://www.archive.org/details/kvhw1999-09-19.shnf

Brian Frost's onstage Vintage Neumann's~>Manley mic pre, SKB 04-20-2002: http://www.archive.org/details/skb2002-04-20.shnf

-ba

[NJFunk]

All right fellas, have a good night.  I'm off to make another shitty stage lip recording...

[Church-Audio]

I was just trying to say that when the moon is aligned with the stars and you have a good sounding room with a good sounding PA and you can place your mics somewhere in the middle of the room dead center That you will end up with a very good recording that will beat any stage recording.. for an amplified performance if the mix out front is good and the sound engineer has his act together..

Chris Church
 

That's what you were trying to say when you actually said this?

I personally do not know why ANYONE would run a onstage mic for a amplified performance the sound on stage always sucks!

Where in that statement is it qualified with "you have a good sounding room with a good sounding PA and you can place your mics somewhere in the middle of the room dead center"?  When "you have a good sounding room with a good sounding PA and you can place your mics somewhere in the middle of the room dead center" is not your point but rather is the what you backtracked to when you needed a point that you could actually defend.  This is something that you need to at least acknowledge before I let it go.

Say what you want I never backtracked I only wanted to quantify my statement with added clarity so everyone could understand including you.. What I meant by my first statement. For those who know me I am not the type to backtrack, say what you will about me say, I don't know what the hell I am talking about. At the end of the day, I know who I am and I know what I know.... Lets just drop this......... I am done, I have said what I said and I am not ever going to back down from my point. I have seen this time and time again in real situations in real venues. With real bands...  And no one has yet provided me with the proof that I am wrong....

Chris Church

[NJFunk]

Thanks folks for the advice... +Ts all around

I personally do not know why ANYONE would run a onstage mic for a amplified performance the sound on stage always sucks! I mean I have spent 20 years as a live sound engineer I have done both monitors and front of house and in all my years I have heard maybe one or two shows that sounded really good on stage with a great balance. So IMO lose the on stage mics

Hmm, this seems to be the clearest thing you said in the whole discussion.

[Church-Audio]

w/o quoting, i find it funny that the later replies included wanting to hear a ROCK band w/ vocals recorded on stage, where it was clearly stated that recording vocals was never the plan when recording onstage.

I was talking about a rock band from the beginning of this thread.... When someone points out a three peace band with no vocals, A moron could get the balance right on stage with very little problems... So its a unfair comparison. I am and always was talking about a ROCK band or a situation where everything is going thru a PA system and a monitor system on stage and it sounds good out front....


If you don't have vocals and you don't have a PA how else are you going to take the show but on stage lol??

I think some people think I don't get the point of stage taping. I mean do you think there is a situation I have not been thru in 20 years as a sound engineer working with the bands I have worked with?? where I would not understand a pretty basic principal of recording a live performance.... Oh of course you do because you don't respect me, why because its easier for people to throw shit then to throw complements or just listen to new ideas... Right?  Every single time I say something about live sound and about shows and try to help people around here it gets cut down. It makes me so sad it really reminds me of high school...... Why cant we respect peoples ideas I respect the fact that stage taping is necessary for some shows and its the only solution when the PA SUCKS or is none existent.

Believe what you will twist my words. I am just giving an opinion I asked someone to prove me wrong all you guys can do is point out discrepancies in my words SHOW ME THE GREAT STAGE RECORDING!!!.... prove me wrong with stage recording that sounds as good as a good out front mix and I will say I was wrong....

[rokpunk]

This argument is over no one gets my point so I am taking my toys and going home..

But only after 4 more posts and a bunch of name dropping....         






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