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Author Topic: mics directly into recorder question (at943 4.7k/853/ssdsm6; r-1;r09;iriverh120  (Read 32552 times)

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Offline Will_S

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So are you saying this schematic is not showing alternative 3 vs 2 wire powering schemes?  Edit:  I already noted that some models are shorted at the capsule, I am aware of this, not sure why that equates to assuming mine were?

http://www.soundbydesign.net/pdf_downloads/wiring/mke2.pdf


Um no it shows what I was saying about the shield and one of the wires being directly connected to each other. And you can add a resistor to a mic but your not going turn it into a three wire capsule... All they are doing is adding a bias resistor and a cap...This is not three wire. Most belt packs have a separate power and signal because they can be used as a line input and its not desirable to have bias voltage on a device that is at line level and does not require it. Most packs are l

Line in
Mic in
Pwr out
ground.
but this is not three wire.

Cool, another +T in 12 for that explanation.  I can see how a mic that's been shorted to 2 wire at the capsule (or a 3 wire capsule, right?) mic could work with Method 1, if that's how the belt transmitter is wired.

So it was a bad diagram to cite.  But looking back over this thread I now see you already have stated that some versions of the MKE2 are indeed 3 wire at the capsule? 

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,96633.msg1289612.html#msg1289612

So I'm not sure why you were arguing that my mics must be shorted at the capsule?

Edit:  Not sure the second half of my post made sense...


« Last Edit: February 09, 2008, 05:18:48 PM by Will_S »

Offline Javier Cinakowski

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None of the UniPoint or Engenieer Sound lines were designed as lav mics.   the 853 and 933 didn't have clips for lav purposes (from AT anyway).  They had no groove to attach the clips.

The 943 is an adaption to make them lav freindly.  The 943 is just a 933 with a groove to attach a lav clip to...

Now, in all fairness, many people did and still do use them as lavs.
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Offline Church-Audio

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So are you saying this schematic is not showing alternative 3 vs 2 wire powering schemes?  Edit:  I already noted that some models are shorted at the capsule, I am aware of this, not sure why that equates to assuming mine were?

http://www.soundbydesign.net/pdf_downloads/wiring/mke2.pdf


Um no it shows what I was saying about the shield and one of the wires being directly connected to each other. And you can add a resistor to a mic but your not going turn it into a three wire capsule... All they are doing is adding a bias resistor and a cap...This is not three wire. Most belt packs have a separate power and signal because they can be used as a line input and its not desirable to have bias voltage on a device that is at line level and does not require it. Most packs are l

Line in
Mic in
Pwr out
ground.
but this is not three wire.

Cool, another +T in 12 for that explanation.  I can see how a mic that's been shorted to 2 wire at the capsule (or a 3 wire capsule, right?) mic could work with Method 1, if that's how the belt transmitter is wired.

So it was a bad diagram to cite.  But looking back over this thread I now see you already have stated that some versions of the MKE2 are indeed 3 wire at the capsule? 

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,96633.msg1289612.html#msg1289612

So I'm not sure why you were arguing that my mics must be shorted at the capsule?

Edit:  Not sure the second half of my post made sense...




Actually what I meant to say and thanks for pointing it out. Is some of the mics I have seen MKE2 have three wires some actually have one conductor + a shield but I have never seen a true three wire capsule.. I am glad we are getting this stuff sorted out. I dont want to mislead anyone. Like I said before I make mistakes I have fixed 100's of MKE2 mics I can recable them I am one of the only guys in Canada that does this work. And I have never seen a three wire capsule in a MKE2
« Last Edit: February 09, 2008, 06:22:11 PM by Church-Audio »
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Offline Church-Audio

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None of the UniPoint or Engenieer Sound lines were designed as lav mics.   the 853 and 933 didn't have clips for lav purposes (from AT anyway).  They had no groove to attach the clips.

The 943 is an adaption to make them lav freindly.  The 943 is just a 933 with a groove to attach a lav clip to...

Now, in all fairness, many people did and still do use them as lavs.

Actually they do sell a  lav clip that is used on this mic and I did at one time use this mic as a lav but it sucked.. so bad I never used it again...
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Offline Will_S

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OK, so...I think I'm understanding this a lot better now.  There are a couple things I could still use clarification on.

Is it correct that:
A true 3 wire mics has three distinct (ie, never shorted together) "wires" coming out of the capsules. 
One wire (usually red) carries the + DC bias.
One wire (let's call it blue) carries the audio signal.
One "wire", which is usually a conductive jacket around the other two wires for the bulk of the cable, is the shield, and also serves as the ground or return for both the bias and signal voltage.

Is it also correct that:
Such a 3 wire mic can be converted to 2 wire (possibly making it more susceptible to distortion at high SPL) by shorting one of the wires to the shield.  This can be done at the output end, like Sound Professionals does in their stock AT853 version.  Or, it can be done at the capsule end like is done in at least some MKE2s.

Does it matter which wire is shorted to the shield?

Depending on your answers to the above, I may have a further question which I think will illustrate that the MKE-2-5 is indeed 3 wire.

Offline Church-Audio

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OK, so...I think I'm understanding this a lot better now.  There are a couple things I could still use clarification on.

Is it correct that:
A true 3 wire mics has three distinct (ie, never shorted together) "wires" coming out of the capsules. 
One wire (usually red) carries the + DC bias.
One wire (let's call it blue) carries the audio signal.
One "wire", which is usually a conductive jacket around the other two wires for the bulk of the cable, is the shield, and also serves as the ground or return for both the bias and signal voltage.

Is it also correct that:
Such a 3 wire mic can be converted to 2 wire (possibly making it more susceptible to distortion at high SPL) by shorting one of the wires to the shield.  This can be done at the output end, like Sound Professionals does in their stock AT853 version.  Or, it can be done at the capsule end like is done in at least some MKE2s.

Does it matter which wire is shorted to the shield?

Depending on your answers to the above, I may have a further question which I think will illustrate that the MKE-2-5 is indeed 3 wire.

All of the Sennheiser mics I have repaired some 100+ microphones were all two wire capsules with an output/bias and a ground pad. A three wire capsule has an output + a bias input + ground.
I know they were two wire capsules because I hacked off the bodies on all of these mics and soldered brand new cable to all of the capsules.. They did use three conductor cable but it was not because they were using a three wire capsule.
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Offline Will_S

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OK, so...I think I'm understanding this a lot better now.  There are a couple things I could still use clarification on.

Is it correct that:
A true 3 wire mics has three distinct (ie, never shorted together) "wires" coming out of the capsules. 
One wire (usually red) carries the + DC bias.
One wire (let's call it blue) carries the audio signal.
One "wire", which is usually a conductive jacket around the other two wires for the bulk of the cable, is the shield, and also serves as the ground or return for both the bias and signal voltage.

Is it also correct that:
Such a 3 wire mic can be converted to 2 wire (possibly making it more susceptible to distortion at high SPL) by shorting one of the wires to the shield.  This can be done at the output end, like Sound Professionals does in their stock AT853 version.  Or, it can be done at the capsule end like is done in at least some MKE2s.

Does it matter which wire is shorted to the shield?

Depending on your answers to the above, I may have a further question which I think will illustrate that the MKE-2-5 is indeed 3 wire.

All of the Sennheiser mics I have repaired some 100+ microphones were all two wire capsules with an output/bias and a ground pad. A three wire capsule has an output + a bias input + ground.
I know they were two wire capsules because I hacked off the bodies on all of these mics and soldered brand new cable to all of the capsules.. They did use three conductor cable but it was not because they were using a three wire capsule.

Thanks for your patience and explanation.  Sorry if what follows is a dumb question, but now I'm a little confused:

I'm a little confused about what wires I should check the resistance between.  Before, you suggested that there would be continuity between either the red or blue wire and the shield.  But if the capsule has a ground pad and a combined output/bias pad, shouldn't it actually be the red and blue wires that have continuity?  I.e., the shield should connect to the shield pad and the signal and bias wires should both connect to the output/bias pad.  Can you explain why this is not the case?

Offline Church-Audio

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OK, so...I think I'm understanding this a lot better now.  There are a couple things I could still use clarification on.

Is it correct that:
A true 3 wire mics has three distinct (ie, never shorted together) "wires" coming out of the capsules. 
One wire (usually red) carries the + DC bias.
One wire (let's call it blue) carries the audio signal.
One "wire", which is usually a conductive jacket around the other two wires for the bulk of the cable, is the shield, and also serves as the ground or return for both the bias and signal voltage.

Is it also correct that:
Such a 3 wire mic can be converted to 2 wire (possibly making it more susceptible to distortion at high SPL) by shorting one of the wires to the shield.  This can be done at the output end, like Sound Professionals does in their stock AT853 version.  Or, it can be done at the capsule end like is done in at least some MKE2s.

Does it matter which wire is shorted to the shield?

Depending on your answers to the above, I may have a further question which I think will illustrate that the MKE-2-5 is indeed 3 wire.

All of the Sennheiser mics I have repaired some 100+ microphones were all two wire capsules with an output/bias and a ground pad. A three wire capsule has an output + a bias input + ground.
I know they were two wire capsules because I hacked off the bodies on all of these mics and soldered brand new cable to all of the capsules.. They did use three conductor cable but it was not because they were using a three wire capsule.

Thanks for your patience and explanation.  Sorry if what follows is a dumb question, but now I'm a little confused:

I'm a little confused about what wires I should check the resistance between.  Before, you suggested that there would be continuity between either the red or blue wire and the shield.  But if the capsule has a ground pad and a combined output/bias pad, shouldn't it actually be the red and blue wires that have continuity?  I.e., the shield should connect to the shield pad and the signal and bias wires should both connect to the output/bias pad.  Can you explain why this is not the case?

Ok here goes. The MKE2 IS A TWO WIRE CAPSULE with a separate ground wire for the case. One wire should be bias/output one wire should be ground.. So you should connect the ground wire and the ground terminal together...If you look at the PDF you will see that's what they are doing in the diagram. On some of the MKE2 Mics I have seen they used one conductor wire + a shield. 

You should contact Sennheiser they will tell you the same thing.. I am in direct contact with them all the time.

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EMAIL Sales@church-audio.com

Offline Will_S

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OK, so...I think I'm understanding this a lot better now.  There are a couple things I could still use clarification on.

Is it correct that:
A true 3 wire mics has three distinct (ie, never shorted together) "wires" coming out of the capsules. 
One wire (usually red) carries the + DC bias.
One wire (let's call it blue) carries the audio signal.
One "wire", which is usually a conductive jacket around the other two wires for the bulk of the cable, is the shield, and also serves as the ground or return for both the bias and signal voltage.

Is it also correct that:
Such a 3 wire mic can be converted to 2 wire (possibly making it more susceptible to distortion at high SPL) by shorting one of the wires to the shield.  This can be done at the output end, like Sound Professionals does in their stock AT853 version.  Or, it can be done at the capsule end like is done in at least some MKE2s.

Does it matter which wire is shorted to the shield?

Depending on your answers to the above, I may have a further question which I think will illustrate that the MKE-2-5 is indeed 3 wire.

All of the Sennheiser mics I have repaired some 100+ microphones were all two wire capsules with an output/bias and a ground pad. A three wire capsule has an output + a bias input + ground.
I know they were two wire capsules because I hacked off the bodies on all of these mics and soldered brand new cable to all of the capsules.. They did use three conductor cable but it was not because they were using a three wire capsule.

Thanks for your patience and explanation.  Sorry if what follows is a dumb question, but now I'm a little confused:

I'm a little confused about what wires I should check the resistance between.  Before, you suggested that there would be continuity between either the red or blue wire and the shield.  But if the capsule has a ground pad and a combined output/bias pad, shouldn't it actually be the red and blue wires that have continuity?  I.e., the shield should connect to the shield pad and the signal and bias wires should both connect to the output/bias pad.  Can you explain why this is not the case?

Ok here goes. The MKE2 IS A TWO WIRE CAPSULE with a separate ground wire for the case. One wire should be bias/output one wire should be ground.. So you should connect the ground wire and the ground terminal together...If you look at the PDF you will see that's what they are doing in the diagram. On some of the MKE2 Mics I have seen they used one conductor wire + a shield. 

You should contact Sennheiser they will tell you the same thing.. I am in direct contact with them all the time.



Sorry but I still don't follow.  It seems you are implying the blue wire is the case ground, since it is the one that is shorted to the shield IN METHOD 2.  Right?

Then the wiring scheme diagrammed works because the red (bias+signal) wire is connected to both the bias (pin 2) and audio (pins 3 and 4).  So far, so good.

But then going back to METHOD 1, the red wire is connected only to pin 2 (bias).  How is signal getting to pins 3 and 4 through the blue wire if it is the case ground, and signal is on the red wire?

Offline Church-Audio

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OK, so...I think I'm understanding this a lot better now.  There are a couple things I could still use clarification on.

Is it correct that:
A true 3 wire mics has three distinct (ie, never shorted together) "wires" coming out of the capsules. 
One wire (usually red) carries the + DC bias.
One wire (let's call it blue) carries the audio signal.
One "wire", which is usually a conductive jacket around the other two wires for the bulk of the cable, is the shield, and also serves as the ground or return for both the bias and signal voltage.

Is it also correct that:
Such a 3 wire mic can be converted to 2 wire (possibly making it more susceptible to distortion at high SPL) by shorting one of the wires to the shield.  This can be done at the output end, like Sound Professionals does in their stock AT853 version.  Or, it can be done at the capsule end like is done in at least some MKE2s.

Does it matter which wire is shorted to the shield?

Depending on your answers to the above, I may have a further question which I think will illustrate that the MKE-2-5 is indeed 3 wire.

All of the Sennheiser mics I have repaired some 100+ microphones were all two wire capsules with an output/bias and a ground pad. A three wire capsule has an output + a bias input + ground.
I know they were two wire capsules because I hacked off the bodies on all of these mics and soldered brand new cable to all of the capsules.. They did use three conductor cable but it was not because they were using a three wire capsule.

Thanks for your patience and explanation.  Sorry if what follows is a dumb question, but now I'm a little confused:

I'm a little confused about what wires I should check the resistance between.  Before, you suggested that there would be continuity between either the red or blue wire and the shield.  But if the capsule has a ground pad and a combined output/bias pad, shouldn't it actually be the red and blue wires that have continuity?  I.e., the shield should connect to the shield pad and the signal and bias wires should both connect to the output/bias pad.  Can you explain why this is not the case?

Ok here goes. The MKE2 IS A TWO WIRE CAPSULE with a separate ground wire for the case. One wire should be bias/output one wire should be ground.. So you should connect the ground wire and the ground terminal together...If you look at the PDF you will see that's what they are doing in the diagram. On some of the MKE2 Mics I have seen they used one conductor wire + a shield. 

You should contact Sennheiser they will tell you the same thing.. I am in direct contact with them all the time.



Sorry but I still don't follow.  It seems you are implying the blue wire is the case ground, since it is the one that is shorted to the shield IN METHOD 2.  Right?

Then the wiring scheme diagrammed works because the red (bias+signal) wire is connected to both the bias (pin 2) and audio (pins 3 and 4).  So far, so good.

But then going back to METHOD 1, the red wire is connected only to pin 2 (bias).  How is signal getting to pins 3 and 4 through the blue wire if it is the case ground, and signal is on the red wire?
Grasshopper your confusing 3 pin mini xlr wiring with wiring for a wireless beltpack.. They are not the same thing... Shure uses a TA4F connector they have a separate ground line and you have to short out the line input to ground hence the reason why the blue wire is on the other terminal pin configurations are NOT standard like they are for THREE WIRE MINI XLR connectors where you have pin 1 ground pin 2 output pin 3 bias.... this is a whole new ball game when your talking wireless belt packs. Keep up the questions its the only way to learn I drove all my sound engineer friends nuts they eventually showed me how to do sound lol....

Chris
for warranty returns email me at
EMAIL Sales@church-audio.com

Offline Will_S

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OK, so...I think I'm understanding this a lot better now.  There are a couple things I could still use clarification on.

Is it correct that:
A true 3 wire mics has three distinct (ie, never shorted together) "wires" coming out of the capsules. 
One wire (usually red) carries the + DC bias.
One wire (let's call it blue) carries the audio signal.
One "wire", which is usually a conductive jacket around the other two wires for the bulk of the cable, is the shield, and also serves as the ground or return for both the bias and signal voltage.

Is it also correct that:
Such a 3 wire mic can be converted to 2 wire (possibly making it more susceptible to distortion at high SPL) by shorting one of the wires to the shield.  This can be done at the output end, like Sound Professionals does in their stock AT853 version.  Or, it can be done at the capsule end like is done in at least some MKE2s.

Does it matter which wire is shorted to the shield?

Depending on your answers to the above, I may have a further question which I think will illustrate that the MKE-2-5 is indeed 3 wire.

All of the Sennheiser mics I have repaired some 100+ microphones were all two wire capsules with an output/bias and a ground pad. A three wire capsule has an output + a bias input + ground.
I know they were two wire capsules because I hacked off the bodies on all of these mics and soldered brand new cable to all of the capsules.. They did use three conductor cable but it was not because they were using a three wire capsule.

Thanks for your patience and explanation.  Sorry if what follows is a dumb question, but now I'm a little confused:

I'm a little confused about what wires I should check the resistance between.  Before, you suggested that there would be continuity between either the red or blue wire and the shield.  But if the capsule has a ground pad and a combined output/bias pad, shouldn't it actually be the red and blue wires that have continuity?  I.e., the shield should connect to the shield pad and the signal and bias wires should both connect to the output/bias pad.  Can you explain why this is not the case?

Ok here goes. The MKE2 IS A TWO WIRE CAPSULE with a separate ground wire for the case. One wire should be bias/output one wire should be ground.. So you should connect the ground wire and the ground terminal together...If you look at the PDF you will see that's what they are doing in the diagram. On some of the MKE2 Mics I have seen they used one conductor wire + a shield. 

You should contact Sennheiser they will tell you the same thing.. I am in direct contact with them all the time.



Sorry but I still don't follow.  It seems you are implying the blue wire is the case ground, since it is the one that is shorted to the shield IN METHOD 2.  Right?

Then the wiring scheme diagrammed works because the red (bias+signal) wire is connected to both the bias (pin 2) and audio (pins 3 and 4).  So far, so good.

But then going back to METHOD 1, the red wire is connected only to pin 2 (bias).  How is signal getting to pins 3 and 4 through the blue wire if it is the case ground, and signal is on the red wire?
Grasshopper your confusing 3 pin mini xlr wiring with wiring for a wireless beltpack.. They are not the same thing... Shure uses a TA4F connector they have a separate ground line and you have to short out the line input to ground hence the reason why the blue wire is on the other terminal pin configurations are NOT standard like they are for THREE WIRE MINI XLR connectors where you have pin 1 ground pin 2 output pin 3 bias.... this is a whole new ball game when your talking wireless belt packs. Keep up the questions its the only way to learn I drove all my sound engineer friends nuts they eventually showed me how to do sound lol....

Chris


OK, here's what still has me confused.  The pdf gives the pin assignments as:

TA4M
Transmitter View
PIN 1 = cable shield/ audio return/ bias return
PIN 2 = +5V DC Bias
PIN 3 = audio input for dynamic mics or instruments
PIN 4 = 20kΩ resistor to ground jumpered to pin 3 for condenser mics

So it's ok that in Method 1 the audio+bias cable is not connected to pins 3 or 4?  These are only connected to audio if you have a balanced signal?  But then why is the audio+bias cable connected to these same pins in Method 2?

Also, it says:

"Note: This circuit [Method 2] may not work if the MKE 2 is supplied with a connector by Sennheiser.  MKE 2 units with
factory supplied connectors may be wired differently within the capsule."  If all MKE2s are 2 wire capsules, why would the method work with some and not others?

Just hypothetically speaking, what if:
All MKE2s started their lives as 3 wire capsules.  Red>bias pad, blue>audio pad, shield > ground pad.  In some/most (but not all) versions, the red and blue wires (or their respective pads) are shorted together, so that in effect you have red+blue = audio+bias and shield = ground.

Then, Method 1 works with either 3 wire or shorted to 2 wire capsules.  Red>bias, blue>audio, shield>ground for the 3 wire version or red+blue>bias+audio, shield>ground for the two wire version.

Method 2 works as long as red and blue aren't shorted together.  (If red and blue were shorted together at the capsule, there's no circuit since blue and shield are shorted at the TA4F).  It takes a 3 wire mic and converts it to 2 wire, just like when Sound Professionals shorts yellow to shield in the AT853s.  Thus it also provides a boost of 10-14dB like the pdf says.

And of course it doesn't work if red and blue are shorted at the capsule.  In other words, it doesn't work if the capsules have been converted to two wire.  Instead, it only works (like the pdf says) with mics that have pigtailed cables.  Like the MKE-2-5.  The version Richard and I have been saying is 3 wire.

I guess I'm confused what the reason why Method 2 would work with some MKE2s but not others if they were all 2 wire capsules?  How else would "MKE 2 units with factory supplied connectors be wired differently within the capsule"?


Quote
and you have to short out the line input to ground

Is that different from what you are accomplishing by shorting pins 3 and 4 together?  Both wiring schemes do that, but only one connects the pins to the signal wire as I understand it.   ???
« Last Edit: February 09, 2008, 08:20:51 PM by Will_S »

Offline Church-Audio

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OK, so...I think I'm understanding this a lot better now.  There are a couple things I could still use clarification on.

Is it correct that:
A true 3 wire mics has three distinct (ie, never shorted together) "wires" coming out of the capsules. 
One wire (usually red) carries the + DC bias.
One wire (let's call it blue) carries the audio signal.
One "wire", which is usually a conductive jacket around the other two wires for the bulk of the cable, is the shield, and also serves as the ground or return for both the bias and signal voltage.

Is it also correct that:
Such a 3 wire mic can be converted to 2 wire (possibly making it more susceptible to distortion at high SPL) by shorting one of the wires to the shield.  This can be done at the output end, like Sound Professionals does in their stock AT853 version.  Or, it can be done at the capsule end like is done in at least some MKE2s.

Does it matter which wire is shorted to the shield?

Depending on your answers to the above, I may have a further question which I think will illustrate that the MKE-2-5 is indeed 3 wire.

All of the Sennheiser mics I have repaired some 100+ microphones were all two wire capsules with an output/bias and a ground pad. A three wire capsule has an output + a bias input + ground.
I know they were two wire capsules because I hacked off the bodies on all of these mics and soldered brand new cable to all of the capsules.. They did use three conductor cable but it was not because they were using a three wire capsule.

Thanks for your patience and explanation.  Sorry if what follows is a dumb question, but now I'm a little confused:

I'm a little confused about what wires I should check the resistance between.  Before, you suggested that there would be continuity between either the red or blue wire and the shield.  But if the capsule has a ground pad and a combined output/bias pad, shouldn't it actually be the red and blue wires that have continuity?  I.e., the shield should connect to the shield pad and the signal and bias wires should both connect to the output/bias pad.  Can you explain why this is not the case?

Ok here goes. The MKE2 IS A TWO WIRE CAPSULE with a separate ground wire for the case. One wire should be bias/output one wire should be ground.. So you should connect the ground wire and the ground terminal together...If you look at the PDF you will see that's what they are doing in the diagram. On some of the MKE2 Mics I have seen they used one conductor wire + a shield. 

You should contact Sennheiser they will tell you the same thing.. I am in direct contact with them all the time.



Sorry but I still don't follow.  It seems you are implying the blue wire is the case ground, since it is the one that is shorted to the shield IN METHOD 2.  Right?

Then the wiring scheme diagrammed works because the red (bias+signal) wire is connected to both the bias (pin 2) and audio (pins 3 and 4).  So far, so good.

But then going back to METHOD 1, the red wire is connected only to pin 2 (bias).  How is signal getting to pins 3 and 4 through the blue wire if it is the case ground, and signal is on the red wire?
Grasshopper your confusing 3 pin mini xlr wiring with wiring for a wireless beltpack.. They are not the same thing... Shure uses a TA4F connector they have a separate ground line and you have to short out the line input to ground hence the reason why the blue wire is on the other terminal pin configurations are NOT standard like they are for THREE WIRE MINI XLR connectors where you have pin 1 ground pin 2 output pin 3 bias.... this is a whole new ball game when your talking wireless belt packs. Keep up the questions its the only way to learn I drove all my sound engineer friends nuts they eventually showed me how to do sound lol....

Chris


OK, here's what still has me confused.  The pdf gives the pin assignments as:

TA4M
Transmitter View
PIN 1 = cable shield/ audio return/ bias return
PIN 2 = +5V DC Bias
PIN 3 = audio input for dynamic mics or instruments
PIN 4 = 20kΩ resistor to ground jumpered to pin 3 for condenser mics

So it's ok that in Method 1 the audio+bias cable is not connected to pins 3 or 4?  These are only connected to audio if you have a balanced signal?  But then why is the audio+bias cable connected to these same pins in Method 2?

Also, it says:

"Note: This circuit [Method 2] may not work if the MKE 2 is supplied with a connector by Sennheiser.  MKE 2 units with
factory supplied connectors may be wired differently within the capsule."  If all MKE2s are 2 wire capsules, why would the method work with some and not others?

Just hypothetically speaking, what if:
All MKE2s started their lives as 3 wire capsules.  Red>bias pad, blue>audio pad, shield > ground pad.  In some/most (but not all) versions, the red and blue wires (or their respective pads) are shorted together, so that in effect you have red+blue = audio+bias and shield = ground.

Then, Method 1 works with either 3 wire or shorted to 2 wire capsules.  Red>bias, blue>audio, shield>ground for the 3 wire version or red+blue>bias+audio, shield>ground for the two wire version.

Method 2 works as long as red and blue aren't shorted together.  (If red and blue were shorted together at the capsule, there's no circuit since blue and shield are shorted at the TA4F).  It takes a 3 wire mic and converts it to 2 wire, just like when Sound Professionals shorts yellow to shield in the AT853s.  Thus it also provides a boost of 10-14dB like the pdf says.

And of course it doesn't work if red and blue are shorted at the capsule.  In other words, it doesn't work if the capsules have been converted to two wire.  Instead, it only works (like the pdf says) with mics that have pigtailed cables.  Like the MKE-2-5.  The version Richard and I have been saying is 3 wire.

I guess I'm confused what the reason why Method 2 would work with some MKE2s but not others if they were all 2 wire capsules?  How else would "MKE 2 units with factory supplied connectors be wired differently within the capsule"?


Quote
and you have to short out the line input to ground

Is that different from what you are accomplishing by shorting pins 3 and 4 together?  Both wiring schemes do that, but only one connects the pins to the signal wire as I understand it.   ???

Ok we are actually both right the MKE2-5 Obviously a mic I have never come across is a three wire capsule!!!! But they did make mics like the mke-2-4 that looks identical to the MKE-2-5 that were not three wire but did have a blue wire lol that was attached to ground.. Thats the mics I have been working on... I called my friend who is a tech at Sennheiser lol just to ask him this question he gave me this link

http://www.sennheiserusa.com/newsite/pdfs/Sennheiser_electret_wiring.pdf


See what happens when you ask good questions we both learn something new.. Thanks man.


Chris
for warranty returns email me at
EMAIL Sales@church-audio.com

Offline illconditioned

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OK, so...I think I'm understanding this a lot better now.  There are a couple things I could still use clarification on.

Is it correct that:
A true 3 wire mics has three distinct (ie, never shorted together) "wires" coming out of the capsules. 
One wire (usually red) carries the + DC bias.
One wire (let's call it blue) carries the audio signal.
One "wire", which is usually a conductive jacket around the other two wires for the bulk of the cable, is the shield, and also serves as the ground or return for both the bias and signal voltage.

Is it also correct that:
Such a 3 wire mic can be converted to 2 wire (possibly making it more susceptible to distortion at high SPL) by shorting one of the wires to the shield.  This can be done at the output end, like Sound Professionals does in their stock AT853 version.  Or, it can be done at the capsule end like is done in at least some MKE2s.

Does it matter which wire is shorted to the shield?

Depending on your answers to the above, I may have a further question which I think will illustrate that the MKE-2-5 is indeed 3 wire.

All of the Sennheiser mics I have repaired some 100+ microphones were all two wire capsules with an output/bias and a ground pad. A three wire capsule has an output + a bias input + ground.
I know they were two wire capsules because I hacked off the bodies on all of these mics and soldered brand new cable to all of the capsules.. They did use three conductor cable but it was not because they were using a three wire capsule.

Thanks for your patience and explanation.  Sorry if what follows is a dumb question, but now I'm a little confused:

I'm a little confused about what wires I should check the resistance between.  Before, you suggested that there would be continuity between either the red or blue wire and the shield.  But if the capsule has a ground pad and a combined output/bias pad, shouldn't it actually be the red and blue wires that have continuity?  I.e., the shield should connect to the shield pad and the signal and bias wires should both connect to the output/bias pad.  Can you explain why this is not the case?

Ok here goes. The MKE2 IS A TWO WIRE CAPSULE with a separate ground wire for the case. One wire should be bias/output one wire should be ground.. So you should connect the ground wire and the ground terminal together...If you look at the PDF you will see that's what they are doing in the diagram. On some of the MKE2 Mics I have seen they used one conductor wire + a shield. 

You should contact Sennheiser they will tell you the same thing.. I am in direct contact with them all the time.



Sorry but I still don't follow.  It seems you are implying the blue wire is the case ground, since it is the one that is shorted to the shield IN METHOD 2.  Right?

Then the wiring scheme diagrammed works because the red (bias+signal) wire is connected to both the bias (pin 2) and audio (pins 3 and 4).  So far, so good.

But then going back to METHOD 1, the red wire is connected only to pin 2 (bias).  How is signal getting to pins 3 and 4 through the blue wire if it is the case ground, and signal is on the red wire?
Grasshopper your confusing 3 pin mini xlr wiring with wiring for a wireless beltpack.. They are not the same thing... Shure uses a TA4F connector they have a separate ground line and you have to short out the line input to ground hence the reason why the blue wire is on the other terminal pin configurations are NOT standard like they are for THREE WIRE MINI XLR connectors where you have pin 1 ground pin 2 output pin 3 bias.... this is a whole new ball game when your talking wireless belt packs. Keep up the questions its the only way to learn I drove all my sound engineer friends nuts they eventually showed me how to do sound lol....

Chris


OK, here's what still has me confused.  The pdf gives the pin assignments as:

TA4M
Transmitter View
PIN 1 = cable shield/ audio return/ bias return
PIN 2 = +5V DC Bias
PIN 3 = audio input for dynamic mics or instruments
PIN 4 = 20kΩ resistor to ground jumpered to pin 3 for condenser mics

So it's ok that in Method 1 the audio+bias cable is not connected to pins 3 or 4?  These are only connected to audio if you have a balanced signal?  But then why is the audio+bias cable connected to these same pins in Method 2?

Also, it says:

"Note: This circuit [Method 2] may not work if the MKE 2 is supplied with a connector by Sennheiser.  MKE 2 units with
factory supplied connectors may be wired differently within the capsule."  If all MKE2s are 2 wire capsules, why would the method work with some and not others?

Just hypothetically speaking, what if:
All MKE2s started their lives as 3 wire capsules.  Red>bias pad, blue>audio pad, shield > ground pad.  In some/most (but not all) versions, the red and blue wires (or their respective pads) are shorted together, so that in effect you have red+blue = audio+bias and shield = ground.

Then, Method 1 works with either 3 wire or shorted to 2 wire capsules.  Red>bias, blue>audio, shield>ground for the 3 wire version or red+blue>bias+audio, shield>ground for the two wire version.

Method 2 works as long as red and blue aren't shorted together.  (If red and blue were shorted together at the capsule, there's no circuit since blue and shield are shorted at the TA4F).  It takes a 3 wire mic and converts it to 2 wire, just like when Sound Professionals shorts yellow to shield in the AT853s.  Thus it also provides a boost of 10-14dB like the pdf says.

And of course it doesn't work if red and blue are shorted at the capsule.  In other words, it doesn't work if the capsules have been converted to two wire.  Instead, it only works (like the pdf says) with mics that have pigtailed cables.  Like the MKE-2-5.  The version Richard and I have been saying is 3 wire.

I guess I'm confused what the reason why Method 2 would work with some MKE2s but not others if they were all 2 wire capsules?  How else would "MKE 2 units with factory supplied connectors be wired differently within the capsule"?


Quote
and you have to short out the line input to ground

Is that different from what you are accomplishing by shorting pins 3 and 4 together?  Both wiring schemes do that, but only one connects the pins to the signal wire as I understand it.   ???

Hey, I would have given up quite a while ago.
If you can't communicate effectively (over the forum at least...), give it a rest for a while.
Chris needs time to hack the Sony, Zoom, and any other portable within reach.

Seriously, this is why I gave up modding gear.  Too many variants out there, too much time to explain it, and also, risk of failure involves overseas shipping to make it right.

I'm going to measure my Sennheiser MKE2-5 now...
  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline Will_S

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Ok we are actually both right the MKE2-5 Obviously a mic I have never come across is a three wire capsule!!!! But they did make mics like the mke-2-4 that looks identical to the MKE-2-5 that were not three wire but did have a blue wire lol that was attached to ground.. Thats the mics I have been working on... I called my friend who is a tech at Sennheiser lol just to ask him this question he gave me this link

http://www.sennheiserusa.com/newsite/pdfs/Sennheiser_electret_wiring.pdf


See what happens when you ask good questions we both learn something new.. Thanks man.


Chris


Excellent!  That means my proposal above can't have all the details right for exactly how the two methods work, but I'll take Richard's advice and leave figuring out exactly what's going on there for another day.  Good enough that we both learned something!   :)

Offline Church-Audio

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Ok we are actually both right the MKE2-5 Obviously a mic I have never come across is a three wire capsule!!!! But they did make mics like the mke-2-4 that looks identical to the MKE-2-5 that were not three wire but did have a blue wire lol that was attached to ground.. Thats the mics I have been working on... I called my friend who is a tech at Sennheiser lol just to ask him this question he gave me this link

http://www.sennheiserusa.com/newsite/pdfs/Sennheiser_electret_wiring.pdf


See what happens when you ask good questions we both learn something new.. Thanks man.


Chris


Excellent!  That means my proposal above can't have all the details right for exactly how the two methods work, but I'll take Richard's advice and leave figuring out exactly what's going on there for another day.  Good enough that we both learned something!   :)

Remember that 8.2k resistor assumes a certain voltage for bias... The value of that resistor will change if your voltage is lower or higher.. And when its done right you will see a decrease in distortion. If done wrong you will see an increase in distortion.

Spark'e if he is around can explain this better then I can, I hope he sees this post.

for warranty returns email me at
EMAIL Sales@church-audio.com

 

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