Topic: Some help with a playback system... help me spend my money!

[pjl100001]

Would I need an amplifier if I bought an integrated receiver?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Would I need an amplifier if I bought an integrated receiver?

No.  Thats what an "integrated" receiver is.  The preamp and amp are integrated into a single package to allow cost savings such as using the same power supply for both.  "Reciever" comes from also having an integrated AM/FM radio tuner.  I don't think many have those anymore but the reciever name seems to have stuck in the consumer product lines.  In most high end product lines they label it an integrated amp.

[MBecker]

"And as for speakers, I'm split between the maggie mmgs or the epos els 3 and els3c... anyone have any suggestions here?"

i'd highly recommend listening to the maggies before buying them.  A lot of people rave about their imaging, but produces it in a small area, being that you said you'll be in a door room where acoustics probably won't be good, you won't get that benefit.  Also the lack of bass will be another issue without a sub.  Also, size is a major issue, you might be able to wallmount them, but if you have concrete walls in your dorm, thats not always doable.  I'd really be suprised if you can pull off two speakers with 14.5x48x1.25 specs.  If you have your room specs already it might not be an issue, but I had no idea what size a room i was moving into until the day i got there.  Also, you'll need to get a receiver that can handle the 4 ohm load with the maggies, thats not something a cheap receiver will do.  With that said, i'm not trying to knock maggies, just that I think they arent the right solution for someone moving to college.  I think a pair of bookshelves or even sattelite speakers like the Klispsch RSX-4 (very unique sound, some people seem to love or hate it)  would be more pratical http://www.klipsch.com/product/product.aspx?cid=709

[jpschust]

you can do an amc amp + bk st240 for like 500 bucks, that handles the 4ohm load just fine.

[MattD]

I also agree with Craig on the digital amp side -- I have a more expensive sony digital amp and love it.  The beauty of the digital amps is that they are fed a digital signal by the cd/dvd/etc. player, meaning that even the cheapest cd player will sound REAL close to a high-end one.

"Digital amps" have nothing to do with digital signals being accepted. They are really digital switching amps, which provide either no current or full current (digital) and switch between the two stages at a very high rate of speed. For an example, check out the writeup on my amp, the PS Audio HCA-2.

[pjl100001]

you can do an amc amp + bk st240 for like 500 bucks, that handles the 4ohm load just fine.

can you explain with an amc amp and a bk st240 are?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

you can do an amc amp + bk st240 for like 500 bucks, that handles the 4ohm load just fine.

can you explain with an amc amp and a bk st240 are?

here are some resources:

www.audiogon.com
www.audioreview.com
www.audiocircle.com
www.audioasylum.com

I know that it can be daunting, but if you can use google effectively you can get alot of opinions and info from those resources.  Several of those sites have member galleries and system pages.  You can research the systems people have assembled and what the strengths and weaknesses are.  Everyone here has favorite gear and opinions, but we are a small sample of what is possible.

[pjl100001]

well my biggest question at this point is what would be the difference between buying an integrated amp as opposed to a seperate pre-amp and power amp.  With a budget now around $1000, what would be the best bang for my buck?

[jpschust]

if you can stand having two seperate units i say do that.  im always changing my sound around, though not for the next 6-12 months i've promised myself.  By having a seperate pre and amp you gain much more ability to just change one piece around.  Additionally, I like the mix of a tube amp or pre with a solid state amp or pre- just having the two together makes a nice combo.

[dnsacks]

MattD said ""Digital amps" have nothing to do with digital signals being accepted. They are really digital switching amps, which provide either no current or full current (digital) and switch between the two stages at a very high rate of speed."

Actually, the new crop of sony digital amps do just this -- seems they convert all (analog and digital) inputs to dsd (same 1 bit digital used by sacd) and the dsd signal feeds the digital amp, making it (the amp) the final stage in the d>a conversion). 

See sony's white paper on these amps at http://www.docs.sony.com/release/STRDA3000ES_TWP.pdf

Back to the thread at hand -- IMHO, given the total budget available for the playback system, my thought would be to not worry about seperate components on the amp side at this point and concentrate on getting the best sounding pair of speakers possible.  In other words, listen to a bunch of different speaker options in, say, the $500-700 a pair pricerange, choose a favorite, and then assemble a more modest system around the speakers.  This would provide a great sounding system and a clear future upgrade path to improve/compliment the sound of the speakers.  I did just this back in my college days, maxing out some credit cards to pick up a pair of b&w dm220i's in the mid-'80s -- still run/enjoy these speakers to this day

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

well my biggest question at this point is what would be the difference between buying an integrated amp as opposed to a seperate pre-amp and power amp.

As mentioned, having seperate components allows you to upgrade either independently and match pre and amp to get a desired sound.  This can be a real asset as you upgrade.  If you get different speakers, you may need to get a more powerful amp.  With seperate components, you can change the amp and keep your preamp.  Also, seperates allow you to use a tube preamp ahead of a solid state power amp.  Alot of people really like the tube sound but can't afford the cost of a high powered tube amp, so they run a SS amp which is less expensive than a tube amp of similar power and a tubed preamp to get the sound they want.  I encourage you to try a tubed preamp.  I think that most digitally sourced systems are too strident and the tubes can warm up the sound without smearing detail.

An integrated unit does not afford you the flexibility of seperate components.  But you may get better perfomance than seperates at the same cost.  Integrated amps share the same cabinet and power supply so they cost less to produce.  An integrated can also be a better solution for someone who has limited space.  Integration eliminates the cost and sonic influence of one set of interconnects.

If you want to get an integrated unit, there are some hybrid designs with tube preamp and solidstate amp like that Jolida.  If you want to deal with seperates, there is an inexpensive tube preamp that was described here.  Search for YS-Audio (I think, I'm sure someone can correct me).  That pre-amp and a decent used power amp like a hafler DH220 (about $175) or B&K ST-140 (about $250).  Either of those amps will drive most of the speakers in your range.


It comes down to a balance of flexibility, convenience, and cost.  Seperates will be more expensive but very flexible and will require more space and a pair of decent interconnects.  An integrated amp will be less expensive and easier to move between the dorm and your house, but you have no opportunity to swap the amp or pre.  However, if you decide to get a tube/SS hybrid, you can change the sound by swapping different tubes into the preamp. 

With a budget now around $1000, what would be the best bang for my buck?

I think in your case, limited funds and being in a dorm, I'd get an integrated hybrid and that $60 toshiba player.  Later you can get the toshiba modified.  Spend about 100 for kimber PBJ for the DVD->Integrated Amp and some bulk kimber speaker cable.  That would leave you about 400 for speakers.  A digital amp would be good too, I just like tubes alot.

[pjl100001]

Teabag, you have been extremely helpful... thanks.  I like the idea of the Jolidas having the tube pre amp but I really want to be able to have more than 2 channels and be able to hook up my computer, tv, and cd changer to one set of speakers.  Would this be possible with a tube pre amp?

[BC]

Back to the thread at hand -- IMHO, given the total budget available for the playback system, my thought would be to not worry about seperate components on the amp side at this point and concentrate on getting the best sounding pair of speakers possible. 

I agree 100%. Speakers are almost always the most colored piece of gear in any given playback system, spend as much as you can on speakers and go low-budget on the electronics, then you can always upgrade them when you get some more $$. I always recommend the Paradigm line when people are looking for speaker recommendations (I have a pair of active 20's and love em!), look at the Atom and Titan for small bookshelf models, depending on how much you want to spend also check out the Monitor line as well as the Reference line. The Reference 20's are 2 way speakers in the $600 range that IMHO can hang with the big boys costing several times more. Here are a couple links to start, main page (very poorly laid out) is:

www.paradigm.ca

Also check

http://www.paradigm.ca/Website/SiteParadigmProduct/ParadigmProduct.html

http://www.paradigm.ca/Website/SiteParadigmProduct/ParadigmModels/MonSeriesII/MonitorSpecs.htm


Happy shopping!
Ben

[Tim]

fwiw - the NAD inetgrateds have pre-amp outs, allowing you to go to seperates later if you so desire.  an integrated is a nice place to start, saving you money and space while you figure out exactly what sound you're going for.

[dnsacks]

Teabag, you have been extremely helpful... thanks.  I like the idea of the Jolidas having the tube pre amp but I really want to be able to have more than 2 channels and be able to hook up my computer, tv, and cd changer to one set of speakers.  Would this be possible with a tube pre amp?

What exactly are your goals for $1,000?

Above, it seems like you want to have a multichannel surround setup (with more than 2 speakers?) that would allow you to listen to your computer, tv and cd changer, and for all of this to be fed through a tube-powered preamp?

I think you're going to need to make a few choices --

Specifically:

1) can you do without multichannel sound (5-7 channels), period (i.e. go with a straight 2 speaker stereo without a direct upgrade path to surround sound/dolby digital, etc.?)

2) can you stand to defer having multichannel sound until you can budget for additional speakers?

3) do you need multichannel sound NOW!

If option 1 is ok with you, by all means look to the tube pres, seperate amps/preamps, etc. etc.  I'd be SHOCKED if you could find a decent sounding tube-based multichannel preamp and amp combo that would come close to fitting within your budget.

If option 2 is the way to go for you, you're going to need to go down the integrated amp route and start with a integrated surround sound receiver (using just the main 2 channels to power stereo speakers until you can afford new ones).  Again, probably going to be VERY difficult (impossible?) to find seperate components for multichannel use anywhere near your budget.  At your budget, I'd take a careful look at the panasonic digital amp mentioned above as well as the sony strda2000es.

If option 3 is the only way for you, good luck -- you're going to need to make a lot of compromises in order to have 5 halfway-decent sounding speakers at your pricepoint.

Finally, each of the options listed above should have no real problem running your computer, tv & cd/dvd changer, just check to be sure that whatever preamp/integrated amp has at least 3 line level inputs.