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Offline Charlie Miller

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Schoeps Question
« on: April 08, 2008, 01:27:35 PM »
MK4 or MK4V and why?

I'm sure someone is gonna say 4021 or something silly like that :)

I have MK4's but my friend seems to think the 4V's are much better.

What are your thoughts?
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Offline Matt Quinn

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2008, 01:42:40 PM »
Personally, I like the 4V's. That bump at 10k really adds some sparkle to my ears.
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Offline nedstruzz

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2008, 01:48:49 PM »
I agree, after running 4V's>V2 for a couple years and then 4's>V3 for a couple I prefer the 4V's.  In my experience I felt that the 4V's had better clarity (most likely due to the bump at 10K) but I also felt they had a smoother low end sound.  I especially liked running the 4V's FOB. 
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Offline ianstone

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2008, 01:52:44 PM »
Personally, I like the 4V's. That bump at 10k really adds some sparkle to my ears.


agreed.
The 4v is my favorite schoeps cap.

the high frequency emphasis that this capsule has tends to even out any heavy bass. IMHO, the 4v's were designed for PA recording. heh. ok maybe not, but they should have been.
they are slightly more difficult to mount, but worth it... they need to be run vertically since it is a side address capsule.

Charlie, let me know if you'd ever like to borrow my ccm4v's to compare with your cmc6/mk4

I agree, after running 4V's>V2 for a couple years and then 4's>V3 for a couple I prefer the 4V's.  In my experience I felt that the 4V's had better clarity (most likely due to the bump at 10K) but I also felt they had a smoother low end sound.  I especially liked running the 4V's FOB. 

exactly. thats because of the hi freq emphasis the low end gets smoothed out
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2008, 02:05:08 PM »
I'm the opposite of the previous posters - I don't care for the 4V's "sparkle".  Just never sounded natural to my ears, always sounded a bit hyped and overdone.  For whatever reason, I've found I'm particularly sensitive to higher frequencies (and as Matt in WI can attest, I'm damn near deaf when it comes to LF, hence most of my recordings are quite low-end heavy).  $0.02
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Offline Craig T

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2008, 02:16:40 PM »
4's.  just personal preference.  I don't like the HF presence peak.  If I need some EQ, I'll do it in post exactly to my needs.  I find the 4 to be a very flexible cap, sounds good in almost any situation.
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Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2008, 02:50:54 PM »
Personally, I like the 4V's. That bump at 10k really adds some sparkle to my ears.


That's what my friend said.

+t's all around.....thanks
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 02:53:18 PM by Charlie Miller »
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Offline scb

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2008, 03:16:45 PM »
MK4 or MK4V and why?

I'm sure someone is gonna say 4021 or something silly like that :)


4026! :)

Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2008, 03:28:09 PM »
MK4 or MK4V and why?

I'm sure someone is gonna say 4021 or something silly like that :)


4026! :)

been expecting you :)
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Offline zman

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2008, 04:00:01 PM »
Hey Charlie, haven't seen you since the Panic show in San Dieg 2 years ago! I have a set of CCM4V's, and I love the recordings I have pulled for the past couple of years! I think they handle the bass better than the MK4's. They also have a nicer high end frequncy response. I was wonderin' what took Scotty B. so long to chime in!
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Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2008, 04:16:05 PM »
I'm gonna be running them on stage at mexicali blues for kimock. I'll be mixing it with the sbd. I'll post some samples.
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Offline coloartist

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2008, 04:23:16 PM »
I wish just once one of us would run 4's and 4'v on the same stand WITH THE SAME PRE's.

PS-I'll miss you in Denver, Charlie. I scheduled Panic tour before the Owsley's dates were announced.  :(  :'(
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Offline Craig T

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2008, 04:54:11 PM »
for onstage... use the 4's.  why brighten up kimock's warm tone?

I'm gonna be running them on stage at mexicali blues for kimock. I'll be mixing it with the sbd. I'll post some samples.
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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2008, 04:59:39 PM »
I'm gonna be running them on stage at mexicali blues for kimock. I'll be mixing it with the sbd. I'll post some samples.

Charlie, if you want to just try out some 4V's 1st, I can loan you a pair for these shows, I suspect I will be hitting at least one of them.

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2008, 05:01:28 PM »
I wish just once one of us would run 4's and 4'v on the same stand WITH THE SAME PRE's.


It's been done with Nick and I using Nbox's.....I prefer the 4V's, he prefer's the 4's (of course he would, as he owns the 4's and doesnt like to diss them)

Offline jhfinn

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2008, 05:07:16 PM »
I ran MK4's for 6 years before switching to the 4V's.....Dont regret it at all.
If you ever run in to a position when you dont want that little HF boost throw a set of W5D windscreens on them.

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Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2008, 05:12:59 PM »
I'm gonna be running them on stage at mexicali blues for kimock. I'll be mixing it with the sbd. I'll post some samples.

Charlie, if you want to just try out some 4V's 1st, I can loan you a pair for these shows, I suspect I will be hitting at least one of them.

I'm using Dan Heend's, but thanks. I'm probably gonna use the 4021's for the recording we sell, I'll use the 4V's for experimenting.
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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2008, 06:12:56 PM »
well if you want to go nuts and experiment even further, you could run my Schoeps M/S setup onstage, I can even loan you my 744 to link em all up for the night as I won't be taping, I always just buy the Kimock shows, with the exception of Easton in February since you weren't there.


Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2008, 06:29:52 PM »
well if you want to go nuts and experiment even further, you could run my Schoeps M/S setup onstage, I can even loan you my 744 to link em all up for the night as I won't be taping, I always just buy the Kimock shows, with the exception of Easton in February since you weren't there.



Ron Keyser is bringing his 744T. I don't wanna put too many mics on stage. Clutters it up too much, but thanks for the offer. I'm gonna run 4V's, 4021's and Soundfield AMS ST250, and the SBD, thus giving me 8 channels of pure orgasm.

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Offline brianp

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2008, 06:59:35 PM »
I prefer 4's. I love the bass response of the 4v's, but the HF emphasis is too fatiguing to my ears after a while. And it seems like all 4v tapes have a similar sound to them. The 4v's don't seem to pickup the sound of the room as much as the 4's do, but that isn't always a good thing. I definitely prefer the 4v's to the 4's when taping FOB in a big arena, but in a small venue I usually like the 4's better.

So it's kind of a chocolate vs. vanilla thing. Both are great sounding capsules.
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2008, 07:26:21 PM »
schoeps also tout the 4v's 'unusually smooth off-axis response', which prob is applicable to our use.

another huge advantage of 4vs is, although they are longer than an mk4, they are side-address and are a lot more low pro in a hat.

many a good fob tape has been made with 4v's on an ortf bar backwards (resulting angle 70 deg)
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Offline shaggy

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2008, 07:27:14 PM »
I also think each has a purpose for different applications.  I prefer to use the 4vs at the moment since I have them in a kangol and go undercover upfront alot.  They naturally fit inside the kangol's brim in a near ORTF fashion (16.5cm spacing, 105-110 degrees) without bits poking out.  That said, IMHO, I would be more inclined to run 4s onstage since there is not going to be alot of HF loss that close.  If you were running more than 3 or 4 meters back (depending on the room), the 4vs would be better.

That is the wonderful thing about Schoeps; the way their line of products are designed, they are completely adaptable for any given situation. 

Offline DSatz

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2008, 10:43:48 PM »
There are really two sonic differences between these two capsules. One is the thing that y'all are talking about--the overall response elevation at around 9 - 10 kHz which the MK 4V has and the MK 4 doesn't.

But the MK 4 has a slight elevation in its off-axis high-frequency response which the MK 4V doesn't (in the horizontal plane, at least). So the two capsules have different relationships between their on-axis and off-axis response, or (if you prefer) their free-field versus diffuse-field response. That's what jerryfreak was referring to.

For recording in a large room with rich, warm, well-balanced acoustics, either capsule can be used equally well; they won't sound the same but it's purely a matter of preference. But when there are less-than-desirable reflections which tend to be bright and harsh--as in small performance spaces with hard, nearby walls and/or low ceilings--then I strongly prefer the milder diffuse-field response of the vertical capsule. I may not be in love with its response elevation, but that can be tuned out with a good equalizer--whereas an equalizer can't help you when the high-frequency content of the reverberant sound is out of proportion to the high-frequency content of the direct sound.

In other words it isn't that one capsule is generally "better" than the other--but that the vertical capsule is more suitable for certain imperfect acoustical situations which I've come across rather often in my classical recording work (especially when recording grand pianos, which people insist on putting into rooms that are way too small for the instrument).

For those who don't want to have to choose between a high-frequency elevation off-axis (MK 4) and a high-frequency elevation on-axis (MK 4V), there is a little-known alternate form of the MK 4V called the "MK 4VJ" which doesn't have any high-frequency rise to speak of--just a little "blip" of about 1 dB at the top end before it starts to roll off gradually. I've been unable to convince Schoeps to list it in their catalog, but it can be ordered from any Schoeps dealer.

--best regards

P.S.: added the next morning: The response elevation of the MK 4V isn't a crime against nature, unless you consider the entire recording industry to be a crime against nature (though as someone who's worked in that industry, I'm open to discussing it). The response elevation of the MK 4V is part of what it takes to "sound like a recording" in our day and age. As a classical musician I prefer situations which allow me to record with a fundamentally natural and realistic sound balance, but a great many recording situations don't allow such methods to work effectively for acoustical reasons. Also, many listeners (especially those who aren't musicians) don't expect to hear music coming out of a stereo; they expect to hear a recording as that phenomenon has been defined commercially.

Commercial recording is an idiom or more precisely a set of idioms. An important part of most of these idioms involves the exaggeration--sometimes extreme exaggeration--of certain kinds of sonic detail. Multi-track recording with overdubbing, close-up miking and the use of microphones with non-linear frequency response are an integral part of that approach.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 08:30:11 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2008, 02:46:01 PM »
wealth of info as always.

wierd that they dont list the mk4vj, i bet a lot of people would choose that over a stock 4v, if they knew about it.
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Offline Matt Quinn

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2008, 03:36:31 PM »


What do these mysterious 4VJ's go for as far as cost?
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Offline Tim

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2008, 04:07:33 PM »


What do these mysterious 4VJ's go for as far as cost?

it comes with a J so you can trick yourself into believing they sound decent

;)
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2008, 04:20:03 PM »
well matched 4vs are like $2600, i imagine they are similar



What do these mysterious 4VJ's go for as far as cost?
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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2008, 07:31:31 PM »
But the MK 4 has a slight elevation in its off-axis high-frequency response which the MK 4V doesn't (in the horizontal plane, at least). So the two capsules have different relationships between their on-axis and off-axis response, or (if you prefer) their free-field versus diffuse-field response. That's what jerryfreak was referring to.

In the 4v, the HF response in horizontal plane is different from the vertical?  So, standing the capsule up lengthwise, this is the horizontal plane (side to side) that you refer to?  There is a difference in the vertical (up and down) plane?  I can visualize it since there is a physical top and bottom to the capsule which probably distorts the HF energy that the diaphram receives.  Can you comment about that difference since many of us use Kwon bars or hats to mount 4vs in a prone fashion (the capsule laid down rather than standing up).  I have been often wondering if there is a 'hole in the middle' using this configuration.

Offline DSatz

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2008, 08:31:21 PM »
jerryfreak, I suspect that they don't list it because the frequency response graph wouldn't be visually impressive--it would show a gradual rolloff from 10 or 11 kHz on up. If it were a ribbon microphone that response would be fantastic, but it's a condenser.

The MK 4VJ was in fact designed for a customer in Japan to replace a particular cardioid ribbon microphone which had been discontinued by its manufacturer and could no longer be maintained. The application was to record a traditional Japanese instrument with extraordinary high-frequency energy at close range. The customer lent the microphone to Schoeps, and Schoeps adapted the MK 4V's response to match it.

This capsule sells well in Japan for an additional reason: It is considered impolite there to aim a "pencil-type" microphone directly at a person's face at close range. I used to record live interviews for radio, and often felt as if I were a dentist when setting up the microphones. There is powerful symbolism to the shapes involved; it's no surprise that the most successful "vocal microphones" are shaped so that a person feels he or she is singing into them, rather than that the microphone is aimed at the singer.

Anyway, I mean the "vertical" and the "horizontal" plane with the capsule standing upright, i.e. with the cap pointing straight up or straight down--in other words, taking the "V" (which stands for "vertical" rather than "Vendetta" in this case) in the capsule's name seriously. This type of capsule or microphone has a somewhat different pattern in the two planes, primarily because on its 0-degree axis, the capsule isn't radially symmetrical the way the MK 4 (for example) is. There's not a huge difference, but it is measurable and it could be audible in certain situations.

This is offset by the fact that the sound arriving in the horizontal plane "sees" the same shape of solid object no matter what angle it is coming from. In most conventional two-microphone stereo recording, the greatest range of sound incidence for direct sound occurs along the horizontal plane, so that's rather nice.

--best regards
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 09:32:24 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline H₂O

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2008, 10:08:49 PM »
I had 4's then went 4v's and went back to 4's.  I got xt's and didn't like the 4v's with the xt's (xt's have  there own HF emphisis).   

Personally I prefer the sound of the 4's to the 4v's with my xt's and m222's.

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Offline DSatz

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2008, 11:40:18 PM »
campbrs, just on the level of personal preference I also prefer the MK 4 to the MK 4V. But I would prefer the standard CMC amplifier series over the CMC 6xt. Of course that goes with my own preferred methods of recording, so anyone else's mileage may, will, and probably ought to differ.

My favorite cardioids for less-than-ideal acoustics are a pair of CMT 56 three-pattern microphones which I bought in 1973 just a few months before the Colette series was introduced. The MK 4VJ's response is basically similar to that of the cardioid pattern in the MK 6 capsule, so it is in much the same ballpark.

--best regards

P.S.: The attached flyer is from back then, so please don't try to order this microphone from the number shown ...
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 11:45:23 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline ianstone

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2008, 01:34:48 AM »
campbrs, just on the level of personal preference I also prefer the MK 4 to the MK 4V. But I would prefer the standard CMC amplifier series over the CMC 6xt. Of course that goes with my own preferred methods of recording, so anyone else's mileage may, will, and probably ought to differ.

My favorite cardioids for less-than-ideal acoustics are a pair of CMT 56 three-pattern microphones which I bought in 1973 just a few months before the Colette series was introduced. The MK 4VJ's response is basically similar to that of the cardioid pattern in the MK 6 capsule, so it is in much the same ballpark.

--best regards

P.S.: The attached flyer is from back then, so please don't try to order this microphone from the number shown ...

Interesting (about the similarity of the card pattern in the mk6 and the mk4vj)

I own a pair of MK6's and always thought of the cardioid as somewhere between an MK4 and mk4v
it was something i thought and used to describe the mk6 to people - but your mention of this confirms my beliefs...
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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2008, 10:56:42 AM »
I wish just once one of us would run 4's and 4'v on the same stand WITH THE SAME PRE's.

PS-I'll miss you in Denver, Charlie. I scheduled Panic tour before the Owsley's dates were announced.  :(  :'(

Ask and you shall receive...look what popped up this morning...same stand, same pre's, different caps....

4's   -   http://digitalpanic.org/bittorrent/showthread.php?t=19344

4v's  -   http://digitalpanic.org/bittorrent/showthread.php?t=19343
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2008, 12:35:59 PM »
unfortunately one was DIN and one was NOS, which would greatly influence the sound

I wish just once one of us would run 4's and 4'v on the same stand WITH THE SAME PRE's.

PS-I'll miss you in Denver, Charlie. I scheduled Panic tour before the Owsley's dates were announced.  :(  :'(

Ask and you shall receive...look what popped up this morning...same stand, same pre's, different caps....

4's   -   http://digitalpanic.org/bittorrent/showthread.php?t=19344

4v's  -   http://digitalpanic.org/bittorrent/showthread.php?t=19343
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Offline mmedley.

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2008, 04:53:22 PM »

Good point. I didn't even pay attention. Should be a fairly close regardless.
I don't know just where I'm going
But I'm gonna try for the kingdom, if I can

Offline carlbeck

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2008, 06:13:05 PM »
Plus Z runs his V2 so hot it is bleeding all over his bag  >:D
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



Mics: Telefunken Elam 260, 61, 62, MBHO KA200, KA500 > Niant PFA's, AKG C34L-MS
Preamps: Grace Lunatec V2, Shure FP24
Decks: Tascam DR-2d, Zoom F8

Old rig: Recording: AKG C34 & AKG CK1X or CK2X > MK46 > 460 > Aeta Mix2000 > Sound Devices 702

Playback: Thorens TD125, Denon DVD-2900> Bel Canto DAC-1 > Audible Illusions 3B > Rogue Atlas >ZU Wax Shotgun> Hyperion 938
ALL TUBES BABY!!!

Offline H₂O

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Re: Schoeps Question
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2008, 07:51:42 PM »
Plus Z runs his V2 so hot it is bleeding all over his bag  >:D

That's the truth - the V2 Red LED's are solid most of the time :)
Music can at the least least explain you and at the most expand you
LMA Recordings

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