Topic: PROBLEM with CHURCH AUDIO - Neutral help needed!

[Conny*]

Hi everybody,

I'm sorry that my first post is about stuff like that, but I need your neutral help!

Church Audio came to my attention through a recommendation here at the forum. So I bought a pair of mics and an amp. That was on Sep 1st. It's January now, Church Audio has my money, but all I got for it were disrespectful or absurd mails. But let me tell you the facts:

There had been two possibilities to ship me the stuff:

1. To the USA with arrival BEFORE SEPTEMBER 18TH (I paid 20 USD for
shipping and another 20 USD "fast service charge" to make that possible
after Church Audio told me, that that's no problem)

2. To Germany (I paid additional 15 USD and sent Mr. Church a german address,
after he told me later, that shipping to the USA is NOT possible)

And what did he do? He shipped the package to the USA in OCTOBER! Weeks
after I left the USA! Although we finally determined, that he ships it to Germany!

Just this mistake wouldn't have been such a problem - I paid for
shipping to Germany anyway. But the way he treated me after I waited over 3 months by his mistake, is not to accept! He sent me several absurd mails, telling me something about a scam, accusing me to fool around and again and again, that it was just me, who caused this trouble and that he did everything perfect.

In the meantime, I've been obliged to buy other mics, cause I couldn't wait any longer. It's FOUR months ago now, that I ordered the stuff. Church Audio has my money and my german address, so there is no excuse.

I asked Church Audio to refund my money, but Mr. Church rejected. In an absurd way again, but that will lead too far ...

I ask you: Do I have the right, to get back my money? After four months now? If you come to the view, that it's all my mistake, I will not ask Church Audio for a refund any longer. If you come to the opinion, that I am right and Church Audio caused this trouble, I hope, Mr. Church does his part to solve this problem an give me my refund.

Finally: I can document every single word I wrote, if necessary.

Thank you all and sorry again for this!

Heiko

[travelinbeat]

Finally: I can document every single word I wrote, if necessary.

Hi there--

I'm a long time Church Audio fan, and very active in singing his praises.  As such, this sort of post is a surprise.  I know Chris can sometime get a little flustered, and this does sound like you may have a very justified grievance against him, however for the sake of keeping things as honest and accurate as possible, it may be best to follow through on this offer of documentation.  Chris is a pretty respected guy around here, and I don't know if you'll find a lot of sympathy here for undocumented accusations.  All of that having been said, I'm sure Chris will do what's right, he always makes right by people.

Sorry things got messed up, but post all of those original emails / PM's and let's have a look. 

[vanark]

What exactly can *we* do to help you?

I've had several dealings with Mr. Church and each one was very satisfactory.  Love his gear and find his service to be beyond expectations.  Who else has lifetime warranties that stay with the gear no matter who owns it?  How about replacing a preamp under the warranty after the dog ate it?  Doesn't sound like a guy that is trying to stiff anyone.

Good luck with resolving your problem.  I'm sure Chris will do/has done his best to work it out.

[Roving Sign]

Sounds like the customer had a tight schedule that Chris couldn't keep...tough beans!

I think Church gets the benefit of the doubt...you're about the first guy to come along with a gripe like this...

Did you ever get the mics? Your story is confusing to read - perhaps communication is an issue...

I've shipped stuff to Europe before and it can get stuck in customs for a month...

[Nixoo]

I don't think posting 'evidence' on this forum is appropiate, those are private mails. Ugly as they might be (not saying they are at all!), they were sent to you, and not intended for public view. I'm sure Chris gets to read this and will act accordingly. He's a businessman after all.

[Brian Skalinder]

PM & email sent.

[nameloc01]

I think if business is being done through this website, then its more than fair to discuss it openly (if need be)

[Conny*]

Hello again,

thanks very much for your prompt reactions!
To make it clear again: I don't have any interest to disprofit anyone. I just want to crack this problem. Tell me (after knowing the facts) I'm wrong - I will stop to demand a refund. Should you think Mr. Church is wrong - I hope he will know, what to do.

Yes, I was surprised, too. Many people here wrote just the best about Church Audio. And I'm aware, that I will not make friends with my *gripe*, but thats not the point anyway. I just want fairness.

Yes, maybe it's a problem of communication. I tried my best to tell Mr. Church what happened, but sometimes i had the impression, he even didn't read my mails. But of course, I don't know for sure.

I don't think posting 'evidence' on this forum is appropiate, those are private mails.

I don't think, that Nixoo is right. Those mails are not private. It's the communication between a company and a customer. But anyway, before I make the mails public, I want to give Mr. Church the chance to come into action and solve the problem.

Thanks again!!!

[willndmb]

Sounds like the customer had a tight schedule that Chris couldn't keep...tough beans!

I think Church gets the benefit of the doubt...you're about the first guy to come along with a gripe like this...

Did you ever get the mics? Your story is confusing to read - perhaps communication is an issue...

I've shipped stuff to Europe before and it can get stuck in customs for a month...

i have read a few times where chris is slow on shipping and what he says
in fact he personally has posted about his shipping and turn around times

with that said IF the story is true i would be pissed too and want a refund

[John Willett]

Even the best companies make mistakes sometimes - this sounds like the exception that proves the rule.

[Conny*]

PM & email sent.

Thanks, Brian!
Just answered via email.

[OFOTD]

Sounds like the customer had a tight schedule that Chris couldn't keep...tough beans!

I think Church gets the benefit of the doubt...you're about the first guy to come along with a gripe like this...

Why is it tough beans for this customer when it appears to have been over 3+ months?  

First guy to gripe?     How about this thread  http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,111749.0.html

I realize that ALL companies can't please everyone all the time.    And i've read tons of positive experiences with Chris' products here time and time again.  If it were me that was still waiting all this time i'd be a little more that just pissed off if I kept seeing a vendor/manufacturer posting sales threads, sales updates and deals and I was still waiting 3+ months.  

[Church-Audio]

You ordered your items you wanted them for a certain date but that did not happen because of your address on paypal being wrong so I had to refund your payment and you had to pay again No offence but I dont build anything until I get paid for it. That took time I did send your items out and then the "friend" that you had me send them to left the country.. The items sat in the post office from the 10th of october to the 10th of November then USPS sent them back to me I got them back on the 3rd of December damaged and smashed.. My loss oh well so I made you new gear to get sent out to Germany I asked that you pay $15 extra to ship them to your country you refused. I have sent you over 14 emails asking for a shipping address that I could use to Germany I found the original paypal invoice in the mean time that I printed out and found a good address to ship to. I asked three times that you confirm if that address was still valid This was on the 22nd of Dec last communication. I have made 5 phone calls to Germany asking that you give me a valid address when I call your never home and you never returned my calls. So I have your items they are going to be shipped out on Friday with all of my other orders and I will be posting a tracking number here for all to see. There is no funny business going on here you are not 100% right here and I should never have agreed to ship to a third party address and I will never do that again. I have lost my product out of this deal because the return shipment to me was UNINSURED and I am out $300 worth of product. But I am still sending you new gear out on Friday. I had other customers that I needed to attend to or else I would have kept emailing you. I am not going to give you a refund period you ordered the gear you would have got the gear if it was not for all this messing around trying to save a few bucks on duty.

My customers have always been #1 for me am I perfect hell no but I did everything I could to get you your gear on time.

So for the last time please send me a valid address so I can ship this out. Or I will use the one I have on file.

I did try and settle this privatly but you obviously think that I am wrong here.

[Church-Audio]

Sounds like the customer had a tight schedule that Chris couldn't keep...tough beans!

I think Church gets the benefit of the doubt...you're about the first guy to come along with a gripe like this...

Why is it tough beans for this customer when it appears to have been over 3+ months?  

First guy to gripe?     How about this thread  http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,111749.0.html

I realize that ALL companies can't please everyone all the time.    And i've read tons of positive experiences with Chris' products here time and time again.  If it were me that was still waiting all this time i'd be a little more that just pissed off if I kept seeing a vendor/manufacturer posting sales threads, sales updates and deals and I was still waiting 3+ months.  

Maybe you should read my post and then you can see why it took so long to get solved.

Chris

[J.Maye]

I agree that the product is great and the customer service is somewhat lacking. He told me several times that it was going out "at the end of the week". Nothing shipped and there was no communication. I guess it's just what you kind of have to deal with if you cant find a used pair.

[Church-Audio]

I agree that the product is great and the customer service is somewhat lacking. He told me several times that it was going out "at the end of the week". Nothing shipped and there was no communication. I guess it's just what you kind of have to deal with if you cant find a used pair.

I am working very hard to get gear out but everything is hand built and everything takes time.. Sometimes I do make mistakes and sometimes I promise the impossible ( only because I think I can do it ) I like to try and please everyone but that just does not happen all the time. I apologize if you felt I mislead you. I dont have anything to hide I am working very hard to have even better customer service then I do now. Because I realize there is more to a product then just making it. I sell alot of items every year and they are all built by me one at a time. Nobody has the volume I have and builds everything by hand but I do it there are no excuses for bad service I apologize if thats what you feel you got from me.

[Jeremy Lykins]

I can't speak to this specific situation, but in my experience Church Audio's delivery times leave a lot to be desired.  That's hard to accept when you're used to receiving your internet purchases within a week, but this is a handmade product at a very low price point.  I think that Chris could help himself out if he would be a lot clearer on his eBay site about the availability of his products (as far as I know, nothing is ready to ship and everything has to be made-to-order) and communicate more with his customers.  If he would just e-mail his customers when he receives an order and tell them when to expect their products I think that it would help keep a lot of feathers from getting ruffled.  

That being said, Church Audio makes great products and I currently have another set of mics on order with them.  Hopefully this post won't delay the delivery of those mics.  

[Church-Audio]

I can't speak to this specific situation, but in my experience Church Audio's delivery times leave a lot to be desired.  That's hard to accept when you're used to receiving your internet purchases within a week, but this is a handmade product at a very low price point.  I think that Chris could help himself out if he would be a lot clearer on his eBay site about the availability of his products (as far as I know, nothing is ready to ship and everything has to be made-to-order) and communicate more with his customers.  If he would just e-mail his customers when he receives an order and tell them when to expect their products I think that it would help keep a lot of feathers from getting ruffled.  

That being said, Church Audio makes great products and I currently have another set of mics on order with them.  Hopefully this post won't delay the delivery of those mics.  

The new website will allow me to do that. I am actually working on quite a few things to improve comunication as we speak. But everything takes time and I am doing it all by my self.

Chris

[Church-Audio]

I have thought about it and I do share some fault in this, so I have decided to give a full refund including the shipping. The original paypay address is what I used to send the full refund to.



Chris

[OFOTD]

I have thought about it and I do share some fault in this, so I have decided to give a full refund including the shipping. The original paypay address is what I used to send the full refund to.



Chris

Cool!  Way to be positive about it Chris.    Some other vendors could learn something from ya with responses to problems like this as well.

[Church-Audio]

I have thought about it and I do share some fault in this, so I have decided to give a full refund including the shipping. The original paypay address is what I used to send the full refund to.



Chris

Cool!  Way to be positive about it Chris.    Some other vendors could learn something from ya with responses to problems like this as well.

Thanks Dave. I am not always right sometimes its hard to admit it... But I always do the right thing thats why people come back to me. I am proud to be a member of this community and I always try and treat my customers with respect things did go a little south on this deal thats for sure.

Chris

[Conny*]

OK, that's it. Got my money back. And Mr. Church knows, why he gives this refund.

But whatever, wish him good luck! I would have been interested in testing his products, but after all this trouble, I lost any pleasure about it.

Thank you all for your posts!!!

[Church-Audio]

OK, that's it. Got my money back. And Mr. Church knows, why he gives this refund.

But whatever, wish him good luck! I would have been interested in testing his products, but after all this trouble, I lost any pleasure about it.

Thank you all for your posts!!!

I did it because I made some mistakes. But I was not 100% at fault and I did lose money on this deal. But it was not because of this thread or because of your public postings.. Unfortunately we had a problem with communication that's too bad if we would have been able to talk like this in private the outcome would have been different. I will chalk this up to experience and I will never ever ship to any other address other then the one listed on paypal.

Chris

[Church-Audio]

Nobody has the volume I have and builds everything by hand

Sure about that? 

Ok maybe not   

[Roving Sign]

Chris Church - quik question...do you make your pres/mics in batches...or one unit at a time?

[Church-Audio]

Chris Church - quik question...do you make your pres/mics in batches...or one unit at a time?

I make them in batches sometimes like today for example I made 6x ca-14, 2x probinaural, 6x ca-11, 4x CAFS. Tomorrow over the next few days I will make 8x 9100 preamp and 2x bat box and 4x ca-9000 preamp and 4x ugly By Friday. Untop of answering over 150 emails over delivery times, customer questions, Custom order questions and last but not least sales questions. Then I have to make sure all the shipping gets processed and then build next weeks orders.

Sometimes I build in batches sometimes I dont it depends on whats being ordered and when.

[Myco]

I think in the end you will see that you will get more orders because of the way you eventually decided to handle this Chris. I understand the difficulty that you went through with this transaction and knowing this I wouldn't hesitate to use your services if the need arose. It's a pain in the a** sometimes but even when they are in the wrong, the oldage adage the customer is always right applies. Great work and I wish you much success!

[Church-Audio]

I think in the end you will see that you will get more orders because of the way you eventually decided to handle this Chris. I understand the difficulty that you went through with this transaction and knowing this I wouldn't hesitate to use your services if the need arose. It's a pain in the a** sometimes but even when they are in the wrong, the oldage adage the customer is always right applies. Great work and I wish you much success!

Thanks I wish things could have been different but sometimes you just cant please a customer no mater what you do.

Chris

[Steve__A]

I have thought about it and I do share some fault in this, so I have decided to give a full refund including the shipping...

Chris:

In reading about this incident here it seems to me that if you made any mistake it was in accepting the order under the strict conditions imposed upon it. The customer placed the order on September 1st and expected it to be *delivered* by September 18th. Assuming that everything had gone fine on your end, once the order leaves your shop it is out of your hands.

When you accepted the order I'm sure that you assumed that the payment would go through immediately and that you could start on it immediately. When that didn't happen you had to waste time trying to get everything straightened out, rather than spending your time more productively making mics and pre's. 

In any case, had I been on the jury I would have voted for you- it would have been very reasonable if you would have just sent a second set of mics to Germany once the customer confirmed the shipping address to cut your losses. Your decision to give your customer a full refund is not just the high road, but way over and beyond the call of duty. You are to be commended!

Lessons to be learned from this whole incident:

1. The customer should figure that it'll take at least a month or so to receive a quality handmade product like the ones that you offer.

2. Most eBay sellers will only ship to the address on the PayPal account and you learned that the hard way, having to eat the cost of the order which was damaged in being shipped back to you, and having to waste a lot of time dealing with this issue.

3. It was also interesting to learn that when a package is returned to the sender it is not insured as the original shipment was. You would think that the insurance would cover the shipment until it was either delivered to the customer or returned to the vendor... 

Just my opinion on things. It'll be great when you get your web site up and running since you'll be able to post explanations and disclaimers for all of this sh*t.

Steve__A

P.S. In reading the customer's post my first thought was that he or she was lucky to have not ordered a Dumble guitar amp since the lead time on them was reportedly anywhere from 6 months to several years. And in the signed agreement with Mr. Dumble, if you bother him at all while waiting for your order, you are liable to have your order canceled and the entire prepayment forfeited. "I will wait patiently without disturbing Dumble and will not in any manner interrupt and/or impede Dumble..." Geez, that sounds more like the government than a business! 

[Jhurlbs81]

Thanks I wish things could have been different but sometimes you just cant please a customer no mater what you do.

QFT.  +T for the way you handled yourself, Chris. 

[balou2]

I'm glad Chris and the customer apparently handled this, but it's odd to me why anyone would "seek council" from a bunch of people he/she has never met.  If I was a customer, under the perception that I had made a legitimate purchase yet never received my goods, I would not stop until I got satisfaction...period.  But whatever 

[Church-Audio]

I'm glad Chris and the customer apparently handled this, but it's odd to me why anyone would "seek council" from a bunch of people he/she has never met.  If I was a customer, under the perception that I had made a legitimate purchase yet never received my goods, I would not stop until I got satisfaction...period.  But whatever 

This was not intended as a means of seeking counsel this guy wanted to damage my reputation plain and simple he told me he was going to do this. I kept asking him for an address to ship his gear to since his USA one no longer had anyone living at it. I initially said I did not want to do this because of fraud he got very upset with me and angry I gave in my mistake. I guess some people think they are shopping at Walmart when they order custom built handmade electronics. And get me to send it to a third party address to save $50 on duty.. instead of shipping it directly to his address in Germany Like I wanted to in the first place. Oh well lesson learned I should have done this right away and  just ate the loss early on but I felt I was right and stuck to my guns. All it got me was -$300 worth of product that is damaged and unsellable and a scuff mark on my reputation this guy made out pretty good. The whole two month delay was entirely his fault for asking it to be shipped to an address that was only going to have someone there for a few weeks. The fact that it sat at the post office unclaimed for over 20 days and took an additional 30 days to get back to me is his fault but what ever. I hope he enjoys his new rig what ever it is.

[John Willett]

All it got me was -$300 worth of product that is damaged and unsellable and a scuff mark on my reputation

Er - I think this thread has actually *enhanced* your reputation Chris.

[Conny*]

I'm glad Chris and the customer apparently handled this, but it's odd to me why anyone would "seek council" from a bunch of people he/she has never met ...

This was not intended as a means of seeking counsel this guy wanted to damage my reputation plain and simple he told me he was going to do this ... The whole two month delay was entirely his fault ...

Ufff! I told you, I am going to damage your reputation?!?? What are you talking about??? Show us that mail!!!

And didn't we FINISH that story, Mr. Church? I got my money back and you enhanced your reputation by according that refund – wasn't that satisfying for both of us? So why your last post??? Why telling lies about me and lies about the way, this deal really ran? If I REALLY was going to damage your reputation, I easily could have done this before by publishing the mails between Church Audio and me, your customer, as members asked for. But that wasn't my interest! But you went too far!!!

So this is the first part of the communication with the company Church Audio. To sum up again: I had been on holidays in the USA in September and asked Mr. Church to send a pair of mics+preamp to the states, but only if it arrives before Sept.18th. He first gave me an OK, but after I paid, he canceled his OK and I arranged with Mr. Church for shipping the stuff to Germany. I paid the additional shipping-fee and everything seemed to be OK. But then, Mr. Church made the crucial mistake: In October, weeks after I left the states, he sent the package to the USA (with no one there to receive it anymore) and not to Germany. Remember: I paid him $55 just to send the stuff to EUROPE. So I waited 3 months before he told me, that he got the package back. And still no mics, no amp in my hands.

But that alone had not been a real problem, I really had been patient. But then, he began telling me again and again, that it would be all my fault. And he is going on with that ...

< edited to remove private, personal content and communications -- please refrain from publicly posting private, personal content and communications. > -- Brian Skalinder

And now, please, someone tell Mr. Church, that nobody expects him to be a Mr. Perfect and that it's not a problem to tell a customer or a forum or whomsoever: "I'm sorry, that was my mistake" instead of treating a customer like a stupid child and letting him wait for months! For nothing in the end, no mic, no preamp, nothing but trouble. No, I'm sorry, but that's not good for a companies' reputation ...

I thank you all very much and hope, I can finish that now ...

[rowjimmytour]

I'm glad Chris and the customer apparently handled this, but it's odd to me why anyone would "seek council" from a bunch of people he/she has never met ...

This was not intended as a means of seeking counsel this guy wanted to damage my reputation plain and simple he told me he was going to do this ... The whole two month delay was entirely his fault ...

Ufff! I told you, I am going to damage your reputation?!?? What are you talking about??? Show us that mail!!!

And didn't we FINISH that story, Mr. Church? I got my money back and you enhanced your reputation by according that refund – wasn't that satisfying for both of us? So why your last post??? Why telling lies about me and lies about the way, this deal really ran? If I REALLY was going to damage your reputation, I easily could have done this before by publishing the mails between Church Audio and me, your customer, as members asked for. But that wasn't my interest! But you went too far!!!

So this is the first part of the communication with the company Church Audio. To sum up again: I had been on holidays in the USA in September and asked Mr. Church to send a pair of mics+preamp to the states, but only if it arrives before Sept.18th. He first gave me an OK, but after I paid, he canceled his OK and I arranged with Mr. Church for shipping the stuff to Germany. I paid the additional shipping-fee and everything seemed to be OK. But then, Mr. Church made the crucial mistake: In October, weeks after I left the states, he sent the package to the USA (with no one there to receive it anymore) and not to Germany. Remember: I paid him $55 just to send the stuff to EUROPE. So I waited 3 months before he told me, that he got the package back. And still no mics, no amp in my hands.

But that alone had not been a real problem, I really had been patient. But then, he began telling me again and again, that it would be all my fault. And he is going on with that ...

< edited to remove private, personal content and communications -- please refrain from publicly posting private, personal content and communications. > -- Brian Skalinder

And now, please, someone tell Mr. Church, that nobody expects him to be a Mr. Perfect and that it's not a problem to tell a customer or a forum or whomsoever: "I'm sorry, that was my mistake" instead of treating a customer like a stupid child and letting him wait for months! For nothing in the end, no mic, no preamp, nothing but trouble. No, I'm sorry, but that's not good for a companies' reputation ...

I thank you all very much and hope, I can finish that now ...

communication breakdown,
Its always the same,
Im having a nervous breakdown,
Drive me insane!

[Church-Audio]

I'm glad Chris and the customer apparently handled this, but it's odd to me why anyone would "seek council" from a bunch of people he/she has never met ...

This was not intended as a means of seeking counsel this guy wanted to damage my reputation plain and simple he told me he was going to do this ... The whole two month delay was entirely his fault ...

No offence but this is not all of our communication. And it does not tell the whole store of the simple fact that you wanted to save $40 on duty and gave me a huge run around. I had to cancel your paypal payment simply because you wanted sent to another address other then the one listed on paypal you have your money right? I am out a 9100 and a mic and shipping costs!

Never again....

It was my fault for accepting this deal in the first place.

[Conny*]

Hello there,

the moderator just deleted the posted email-communication between the company Church Audio and me, the customer. Of course it hasn't something to do with the fact, that Church is a supporter of this forum. And that these mails show, how the facts really are.

No offence but this is not all of our communication.

Yes, you are right. I left out the second part. Your children-emails for example, remember? But that probably would be the end of your good reputation so far and I'm not interested in that.

And it does not tell the whole store of the simple fact that you wanted to save $40 on duty ...

And what - I've been in the USA and so I had the possibility to save money on duty. Not the whole amount but partly. There is nothing immoral or illegal about that. But you refused that anyway and we arranged (and I payed) for shipping the stuff to Germany. God knows, why you although shipped it to the States, long after I left back home.

I am out a 9100 and a mic and shipping costs!

Yeah, you told us before. Life sometimes really can be fair ...

Bye, enough time wasted now!

[rowjimmy]

This thread should be locked and burned.

Mistakes were made, refunds given, lessons learned, not every party is  entirely happy and that is how it shall remain until the end of these here intertubes.

[Brian Skalinder]

the moderator just deleted the posted email-communication between the company Church Audio and me, the customer. Of course it hasn't something to do with the fact, that Church is a supporter of this forum. And that these mails show, how the facts really are.

As I indicated in my PM:  we deleted the private communications content because TS has a policy against users posting private communications content without the consent of all parties involved.  Nothing more, nothing less.