Topic: How do Core Sound Cardioids compare to Church Audio CA-14s?

[swordfish]

These questions have been answered many times; I think we need to develop a sticky.

The CS HEB (DPA 406x) are excellent mics.  I've got a few friend who use them and get some stellar recordings in the right scenarios (all mics have this opportunity - I've won some, and I've lost some). 

Some background from me.... I've owned the CS Binaurals back in the early-to-mid '90s when I had a Sony TCD-D7 portable DAT deck.  At that time, there was nothing in the price range that touched them.  A lot has changed in 15 years.  When I became a little more serious in taping in the early 2000's, I had bought the Giant Squid Audio Lab omni mics.  People here dog them but I did make some excellent recordings with my old Sharp MD.  In fact, a few of them were that good that they ended up being pressed on silver CDs (without my knowledge or approval).  I then moved to Sound Pro CMC8's (Audio Technica 933 cardioids).  They weren't bad.  I sold the and run all things Chris Church in my rig.

Back to the topic at hand... As acidjack has already mentioned, anything CS and Cardoid should be avoided; they're pretty craptastic and overpriced for that matter (sorry Len if you're reading this).  The CS Binaurals are decent but you could likely pick up both CA-14 omnis, cards and a pre and/or a cheap battery box for about the same as the CS option.    I run the CA-14 omnis, cards and the CAFS (freakin' small) omnis for when I need to be a little less obvious.   I also have Chris' "ugly" battery box which is the smallest battery box he makes (essentially a 9V clasp compounded with a mini-jack connector on the end.  For all of this, I've spent around US$400.  This gives me the option of using cards or omnis depending on the situation (indoors, outdoors, close, far away) or using the smaller mics if I need to.  It also gives me a pre-amp which is a much nicer tool to have instead of just using a "battery box" as I can adjust the levels on that rather then on my deck (in most cases).  So, given the option of CS vs CA at this price point, I'd take the CA option.  Yes, you may have to wait a little longer to get your goods but Chris really stands behind what he sells.

Now, you've thrown the CS HEB's into the mix.  I've said this before (and Ill say it again) but at $1000, I don't know if they're really worth it if you look at it from an economic standpoint.  If you've got a battery box and a CA-14 omni (approximate retail < $200> you're not gonna end up with a recording that's 5x better (i.e., $1000 vs. $200).  You get to gloat that you have the mics but I know enough tapers out there who use other mics and leave their DPA's at home to collect dust.

Hopefully this has helped a bit.

Just my 2 cents...

I own a pair of DPA 4061 and the CA 14s cards an Ugly BB and a CA 9100 BB from Chris...The best pulls I did lately are those with the CA 14 cards...good for stack recordings but also good for seated/quite shows.  Not that easy to stealth with.....

Swordfish

[fmaderjr]

The best pulls I did lately are those with the CA 14 cards...good for stack recordings but also good for seated/quite shows.  Not that easy to stealth with.....
Swordfish

For those who don't mind using a hat, very easy to stealth with.

[Duconlajoie]

IMO user experience with arguments is one the most important point so I greatly appreciate all your opinions, it's always very interesting, thanks.

[acidjack]

To add to the mix, I like the 4061s and I've made some nice recordings with them.  Are they 5x better than a comparable CA mic?  Well, hard to say.  The one comp I've heard of 4060s vs the very inexpensive ($89) CA-1 mic by Chris was pretty close, although the source material was a jazz trio with limited instrumentation, not a super loud rock band, which is what a lot of people using these mics are recording.   But keep mind, too, these are omni mics; your original question was about cardiod mics.

I paid $650 for my 4061s used.  I didn't think that was a terrible price, and I'm a sucker for the DPA name, I'll admit.  But at the time, I was also not familiar with the other higher-end small omnis, such as the Countryman B3 and Nevaton MCE400.   The Countrymans cost like $300/pr and the Nevatons can be had for a bit more.  the Countrymans don't seem to be that popular even though everyone who has them swears by them; they also need to be terminated in a stereo miniplug by somebody for you (if you don't know how to do it).  The Nevatons by all accounts sound awesome, but the fact that they use XLR connectors kind of kills it for me, as that makes them way less stealthy IMHO. 

If I were buying again, I'd probably ask a lot more questions about the Countryman B3 and if I could get one of the many capable guys here to terminate it in a miniplug for me, I'd probably go with that. 

The Denecke PS/2 is the smallest phantom power supply that can take fullsize XLR inputs that I am aware of.  It's just power, not a preamp, so you have to use the recorder's gain.  I rarely use it unless I am stealthing, which I don't do much.  That power supply is not really relevant to the mic types you're asking about.

[adrianf74]

@fmadejr: Hell, I just clip mine to my cap at Gen Admission shows.  They're not *THAT* big.   Don't like running them the other way so when I'm at "Arts Centres" or other smaller spots I run the CAFS. 

@acidjack: I'm with you on the Countrymans as those who have 'em, swear by 'em. 

@swordfish: I like the CA-14 cards indoors (stack taping, on a stand right in front of the board or somewhere in between).  I like my CA-14 omnis outdoors; I find the cards always sound artificial.

[swordfish]

The best pulls I did lately are those with the CA 14 cards...good for stack recordings but also good for seated/quite shows.  Not that easy to stealth with.....
Swordfish

For those who don't mind using a hat, very easy to stealth with.

That's what I do but I look kinda stupid with an hat.....hard to use the hat on home turf...so back home  I use my 4061's

[adrianf74]

The best pulls I did lately are those with the CA 14 cards...good for stack recordings but also good for seated/quite shows.  Not that easy to stealth with.....
Swordfish

For those who don't mind using a hat, very easy to stealth with.

That's what I do but I look kinda stupid with an hat.....hard to use the hat on home turf...so back home  I use my 4061's

What looks even more stupid when wearing a hat is my dead rats on the CA-14's but... if I'm outdoors, it has to be done (Toronto is a windy place wherever they hold these outdoor shows). 

[fmaderjr]

You get to gloat that you have the mics but I know enough tapers out there who use other mics and leave their DPA's at home to collect dust.

Count me in this group. MY DPA 4060's are great mics, but I generally prefer cards and usually wind up recording with my CA-14 cards or Franken Nak cards.

Plus if I wanted to buy DPA 4060's or 4061's, I wouldn't get the CoreSound versions due to the large battery box, fairly common reports of the wiring going bad well before its time, and less than stellar customer service.

[swordfish]

You get to gloat that you have the mics but I know enough tapers out there who use other mics and leave their DPA's at home to collect dust.

Count me in this group. MY DPA 4060's are great mics, but I generally prefer cards and usually wind up recording with my CA-14 cards or Franken Nak cards.

Plus if I wanted to buy DPA 4060's or 4061's, I wouldn't get the CoreSound versions due to the large battery box, fairly common reports of the wiring going bad well before its time, and less than stellar customer service.

Chris(Church Audio) did the Jumper cable to 1/8 for me.  Just to ya'll know

[acidjack]

You get to gloat that you have the mics but I know enough tapers out there who use other mics and leave their DPA's at home to collect dust.

Count me in this group. MY DPA 4060's are great mics, but I generally prefer cards and usually wind up recording with my CA-14 cards or Franken Nak cards.

Plus if I wanted to buy DPA 4060's or 4061's, I wouldn't get the CoreSound versions due to the large battery box, fairly common reports of the wiring going bad well before its time, and less than stellar customer service.

Agree.  Mine was a Coresound set and the wiring was bad when I got it.  Their BB setup is a mixed bag for me.  The plus side is, that 3-pin mini-xlr locking connector is very rugged... but it is bigger.  The wiring issues are the bigger problem IMHO.  I had Chris re-terminate mine to a stereo miniplug recently.   

And yeah, out of my rigs, my 4061s do collect dust a lot of the time, but they're also not the best mics I own.  It's tougher when you're deciding between them and a less-than-premium cardiod like an AT853.  They'll best the 853s every time in an ideal situation.... but situations aren't always ideal... That said, tomorrow I'm posting two shows of the same artist - one recorded up front with 853s in a hat, one recorded in the back of the room with 4061s mounted against the board.  The 4061s absolutely smoke the ATs, no question... but I had a perfect crowd.

[acidjack]

In case anyone cares, a not terribly accurate (given different conditions, venues, etc), same artist, two recordings, one with 4061s and one with AT 853 cardiods up close:

http://www.nyctaper.com/?p=6622

[Duconlajoie]

Still interesting, thanks. The wiring issues about core sound seem to occur often in different threads. But by wiring, i didn't find any satisfying translation, you mean cables, quality of soldering/welding, plug or something else?

[acidjack]

Still interesting, thanks. The wiring issues about core sound seem to occur often in different threads. But by wiring, i didn't find any satisfying translation, you mean cables, quality of soldering/welding, plug or something else?

The internal wiring in the battery boxes tends to come loose, causing shorts.  For example, when I got mine, the mics were only outputting mono, with the signal of only the right mic appearing on both channels.

[Duconlajoie]

A very bad work indeed. For that price it's a shame, specially when you pretend to sell high quality !!!

[BlindGuyEars]

I started off with CSB's in the 90's and got some great shows with them, and a sharp minidisc recorder - mt831. Ah the memories. 

But, the customer service, or lack of it, is what moved me on to other and better products.  The mini-xlr on the CSB's finally went bad, and returning things to Len, I heard nothing for 13 weeks. I had to start yelling publicly in various forums to even get a response from him, and eventually, my returned mics. 

Don't get me going on the first versions of the MIC2496 preamp either! My first warning should have been "kilocycles per second KSS" in specifications on his site. *LOL* When people start reinventing technical terminology ... watch out.

Anyway, my vote is for CA14's and I don't even own them yet!

I can speak to the great build quality and sound of Chris's preamps though.