Author Topic: Soundman OKM IIr (stealth mics) (Read 12853 times)

tchoub · « **on:** June 07, 2004, 09:34:46 AM »

Hi,
I have the opportunity to buy a pair of Soundman OKM IIr stealth mics (http://www.soundman.de/) in good condition.
I'm just curious if anyone of you has ever used those mics.
They are based on omni capsules and are binaural mics.

I'm curently running oktava mk012 but I need some more discrete mics for stealth job... (and I can't afford DPA 406x

)

The setup would be : OKM IIr > D8

I also have an AD20 that I use with my oktavas and I wonder if it can used with the OKM mics... (I made a search on google but didn't find anyone running OKM IIr with an AD20...)

Any opinions ?
Thanks !

PS : I have a pair of Core Sound Binaural mics that I hate. I've never been able to make a decent recording with those mics ...

Humbug · « **Reply #1 on:** June 07, 2004, 10:28:00 AM »

Quote from: tchoub on June 07, 2004, 09:34:46 AM

Hi,
I have the opportunity to buy a pair of Soundman OKM IIr stealth mics (http://www.soundman.de/) in good condition.
I'm just curious if anyone of you has ever used those mics.
They are based on omni capsules and are binaural mics.

I'm curently running oktava mk012 but I need some more discrete mics for stealth job... (and I can't afford DPA 406x )

The setup would be : OKM IIr > D8

I also have an AD20 that I use with my oktavas and I wonder if it can used with the OKM mics... (I made a search on google but didn't find anyone running OKM IIr with an AD20...)

Any opinions ?
Thanks !

PS : I have a pair of Core Sound Binaural mics that I hate. I've never been able to make a decent recording with those mics ...

Can you try before you buy? I've handled a pair of these mics, and they are tiny, light and probably very stealthable.

I'm not very keen on CSB recordings I've heard either, but I am biased as I love my Sound Professional CMC2s.

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #2 on:** June 08, 2004, 12:02:46 AM »

they will work, just make sure you get the battery box with the mics so can provide power.

SPLASTiK · « **Reply #3 on:** June 08, 2004, 12:28:29 AM »

Actually I was wondering about these mic's myself. A local taper's list I was looking at today uses them and I was going to e-mail him about them. He used to use Sonic Studios mic's but upgraded to these, I have Sonic Studios (got them today) and was wondering how they compare.

The guy who has them also posts on here, send a PM to:
firmdragon

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #4 on:** June 08, 2004, 12:33:49 AM »

I'm not sure I'd consider the OKMs and upgrade over the Sonic Studios, but maybe it's just my ears.

tchoub · « **Reply #5 on:** June 08, 2004, 07:04:59 AM »

ok thanks for your answers.
I'm considering buying a pair because they are cheap. I would certainly have prefered a cheap Sonic Studios pair

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #6 on:** June 08, 2004, 07:34:55 AM »

Quote from: tchoub on June 08, 2004, 07:04:59 AM

ok thanks for your answers.
I'm considering buying a pair because they are cheap. I would certainly have prefered a cheap Sonic Studios pair

well, if you haven't been able to make a decent recording with the CS Omnis, I would suggest trying to stab your steak another way.

Perhaps omnidirection microphones are not the best choice in your circumstance(s).

silverbullet · « **Reply #7 on:** June 08, 2004, 07:38:00 AM »

I've used my OKM IIr mics a few times. In my ears (incredible 3D sound), taped on walls, and under a hat (just under two vent holes). I've only ran into one serious problem recently recording some loud rock with high SPLs. I was standing close to the stage recording LINE-IN into NJ3 (and we know how hard it is to read that meter!) with the little battery box that comes with it. I didn't choose the bass roll off option on the 6v battery box; I should have. Result was distortion. If I had to do it over I would use the bass roll off option and double check the NJ3 meter. I remember the meter was pushing max but it didn't look like it would clip. Better to err on the side of safety next time and keep my levels a bit lower from now on.

Overall, good mics. I've done some recording in my bedroom with my stereo cranked up and I'm very happy with the results, especially when they are in my ears. I've done some stealth taping and they look like ear plugs. I've even had security talk with me as I'm wearing them.

I usually stealth with SP cmc-8's on my ears but feel a bit uneasy at times. I tried to tape Skynard with these OKM mics under my shirt (front row center ticket) but got busted last Thursday. My bad. Curious to try again the next time I'm real close to security.

ps. That little battery box is great btw. It's very small with a bass roll swith and -20db pad. Even though it's only a 6v battery box, I've used with my SP cmc-8 mics (usually use 9 v box) with good results.

firmdragon · « **Reply #8 on:** June 08, 2004, 05:26:58 PM »

heh. no they weren't upgrades. they were more of a second pair of mics. i needed the sonics for use with a video camera. yeah i'm very satisfied w/ the okms. you should use the 20db always. yeah i don't consider okms an upgrade over sonics either. but i do consider them better than the csbs. but that's just me.

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #9 on:** June 08, 2004, 09:27:31 PM »

Quote from: firmdragon on June 08, 2004, 05:26:58 PM

heh. no they weren't upgrades. they were more of a second pair of mics. i needed the sonics for use with a video camera. yeah i'm very satisfied w/ the okms. you should use the 20db always. yeah i don't consider okms an upgrade over sonics either. but i do consider them better than the csbs. but that's just me.

death to the "binaural" mic!

thanx for the response

Popmarter · « **Reply #10 on:** June 09, 2004, 08:22:22 AM »

I used a pair of that only once, with good result. after that i bought the OKM Rock Studio's which are better (taped around 30 times). Only difference between those two is the amount of hiss. When recording with high levels and mic-in, the R-version can be hissy. I suggest you only buy them if you want to use the to stealth record loud(!) rock shows. Then you can make excellent recordings. For softer music i suggest Rock Studio's or different brands. Make sure the A3 adapter is there too, use it, but leave both setting off.

OKM's are very fragile, you need to be aware of that. Soundman.de is very nice. They fixed one broken mic for free!! Ask for Rolf, he's nice!

tchoub · « **Reply #11 on:** June 09, 2004, 10:59:37 AM »

thanks for the comments !

I'm not sure if the difference between "Rock" and "Rock studio" versions are significant for me :
[1] I mainly record "loud" concerts...
[2] I intend to run those mics with an AD20 so the difference in hiss between the two versions should be significantly decreased by the use of a preamp (

)

I wrote to Soundman and got an interesting answer :
Rolf (yes, he is nice guy

) told me that the capsules can be powered up to 10V. A company called "DACS audio" sells a product (the "PPA") that allow to use a 48V phantom power supply. It basically converts the 48V Phantom Power into 7.5V for use with the mics. I was just wondering what kind of components are needed to do something like that.

thanks again

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #12 on:** June 09, 2004, 11:02:59 AM »

I bet you could use the Samson PM4s for something like that. I'm not sure what level the Samson modules bring the phantom power down to, but I bet it's around 9V

Alpha Murdock · « **Reply #13 on:** June 09, 2004, 03:28:20 PM »

im almost sold on getting a pair of these. the fact that they are super stealthy and fit in your ear is EXTREMELY appealing for stealth situations

http://www.outwardsound.com/

^ seems like a good US distributor.

firmdragon · « **Reply #14 on:** June 09, 2004, 08:59:23 PM »

yeah make sure you get the A3 module and make sure the mic ver. is the rock version.

silverbullet · « **Reply #15 on:** June 10, 2004, 08:52:38 PM »

Quote from: Alpha Murdock on June 09, 2004, 03:28:20 PM

im almost sold on getting a pair of these. the fact that they are super stealthy and fit in your ear is EXTREMELY appealing for stealth situations

http://www.outwardsound.com/

^ seems like a good US distributor.

Yeah, but they aren't very comfortable in the ears. That and you need to be careful to still hide the wires. I turn the mics so that the wire comes forward and around the ear, run the wires under my hair, a little tape just behind my head to keep the wires together and then down the back of my shirt. Also be careful not to show the red/blue color of the mics in the ears...looks less like ear plugs if two different colors are seen.

silverbullet · « **Reply #16 on:** June 11, 2004, 10:19:30 AM »

Well, I went out taping down the road from me. Just a local pop/rock band. Anyway, I taped some SP cmc-8 mics and Soundman OKMIIr to a ceiling beam center above the two speaker stacks but still very close to the stage, practically on top. With a solid beam behind the Soundman omni's I thought this would be an ideal test again for these mics. I can only tape close to the stage and omni's that can handle loud music is what I need many times in a small bar.

The SP went to my NMJ3 LINE IN with SP 9v battery box. Sounds very good but the vocal are weak because these cardiods were basically pointing toward the center of the stage and wasn't picking up much from the main speaker stacks

The Soundman omni's went to it's battery box with the bass level switch turned on as well as the -20db pad --> Line In M1 DAT. At first the results are disappointing. The vocal, drums and guitar come out fine but the bass still sounds a bit distorted. Some fluttering or vibrations introduced. This was heard through some cheap headphones, some cheap speakers, some better speakers in my car, and my computer speakers (which are very good btw). Here's the kicker... I did a digital line in to my home stereo and the recording sounds quite descent through my bose and Velodyne bass speaker. The distortion seems gone. I don't really understand it but I'm loosing faith using these Soundman Omni's at very close range to speakers now. Not sure how the results would have been if I hadn't turn on the bass roll off option; I should have at least tested that but was a bit paranoid. I can't help but think the results would only be worse though.

When I bought these Soundman mics the add said something like if you have to stick your head in a jet engine then use these mics. No way would these mics stand up to claims like this. The SP cmc-8's handled the bass better than these Soundman mics and I didn't even use a bass roll off option on the SP mics !

What are my options? Can I do something to help these Soundman omni's? Windscreen or something? Are there other omini mics that I can tape to walls and ceilings that can handle loud music at very close ranges. I prefer to tape close to decrease the amount of bar chatter. Maybe I should call Rolf about my mics.

edit-> I had my omni's space pretty far apart. About 16 inches apart. Could this be the problem? I read in another post about spacing them only 3-4 inches apart.

another edit: I discovered the rock version mics weren't sent to me. Rather I got the classic version sent to me by accident. I've upgrade to the rock version but haven't used them yet (5/3/05). I'm hoping the rock version can handle the high pressure of loud music now. time will tell

zhianosatch · « **Reply #17 on:** June 11, 2004, 11:50:44 AM »

Solution: DPA 4061s. Or 4062s if you want to record a jet engine or Manowar.

I've always thought I heard something not quite right with these Soundman mics. Also, one owner in France is convinced that the bass-handling problem is the "shittiness" of the A3 battery box....
Armen

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #18 on:** June 11, 2004, 12:30:38 PM »

stacking with cardioids? that's a good comparison

firmdragon · « **Reply #19 on:** June 11, 2004, 03:26:35 PM »

Quote from: silverbullet on June 11, 2004, 10:19:30 AM

The Soundman omni's went to it's battery box with the bass level switch turned on as well as the -20db pad --> Line In M1 DAT. At first the results are disappointing.

thats really odd. i've been doing the bass level switch on -20db pad -> line in M1 thing for 2+ years now. NEVER have i had any distortion problems. i can't even get the levels to clip when the -20db pad is on, the M1 is always at 10. the only problem is when the bass roll is on i'm cutting a little too much bass. i'm currently trying taping w/ the bass roll off on all situations. so far small rooms and stacks are ok. gonna try the larger stacks now.

i dunno check the battery on the A3? is it low?

silverbullet · « **Reply #20 on:** June 12, 2004, 05:48:43 AM »

The battery in the A3 box was reading 5.9 volts, green light on.

Any comments on how far apart these mics should be from each other or does it not make any difference.

I'll do some more experimenting. If I get the same results when recording further away from the speakers then I think something might be wrong with my mics. Glad to hear firmdragon is getting good results with his Soundmans and I will look into the DPA mic recommendations.

silverbullet · « **Reply #21 on:** June 12, 2004, 11:29:12 AM »

talking about dpa and high volumes...here's something you don't see everyday ... link

firmdragon · « **Reply #22 on:** June 12, 2004, 03:42:30 PM »

well if it's between dpas and okms, i'd wouldn't think twice about choosing dpas. their beefy price tag stops most ppl. i run my okms usually about ear length apart. so about this long:

<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

silverbullet · « **Reply #23 on:** June 12, 2004, 05:02:59 PM »

That makes sense, keeping the distance about the width of a human head since that was their primary purpose (in ears). I'll see about taping tonight if I can get to the bar early enough to set up.

I did some more testing and it does seem best for me to always keep the -20dp pad switch on. If I'm recording far enough away (outside perhaps) then perhaps I may switch the pad off. I'm still a bit indecisive about the bass roll off switch on the A3 box. Seems like I am giving up some good bass sometimes but at the risk of distortion.

I was reading some info at Soundman.de website. Seems some distortion could be caused by low battery. In my case, my battery was fine but I wonder if a 9v battery box would be better.

I was looking into the dpa mics, in particular the beige color for stealth needs. $400-500, is that per pair or just a single dpa mic? I hear that dpa's can cost as much as $1,000 !

zhianosatch · « **Reply #24 on:** June 12, 2004, 06:08:56 PM »

I got my pair of 4061s on sale for $625 plus the power supply. Out the door, I paid $750.

silverbullet · « **Reply #25 on:** June 13, 2004, 10:54:07 AM »

Yesterday I did another recording with these Soundman omni's taped high, center and close to the stage. Soundman>A3 box with -20db pad and bass roll off switch to 'ON'>M1 DAT. This time I only space the omnis about 3-4 inches apart and the result came out very good. I was going to kill the bass roll off option for the bands second set but the bar owner wasn't happy with the light crowd and asked the band to break down and pretty much leave before they started the second set. So it goes sometimes for stuggling local bands.

I keep meaning to take more photos but forget. I had SP CMC-8 also taped high going to the NJ3. Good vocals and drums from the cmc-8 and great bass this time from the properly spaced soundman omni's. Now I just need to blend the two recordings. Any recommendations on which (free or low cost, less than $100) software I can do this with? I haven't made a matrix yet and I really need to get off my ass and learn how.

Brian Skalinder · « **Reply #26 on:** June 13, 2004, 11:29:07 AM »

Quote from: silverbullet on June 13, 2004, 10:54:07 AM

Now I just need to blend the two recordings. Any recommendations on which (free or low cost, less than $100) software I can do this with?

Freeware: Audacity.

silverbullet · « **Reply #27 on:** June 13, 2004, 01:44:55 PM »

Wow, Audacity was quite painless and easy

I've heard of it before so I downloaded it and within a few minutes made my first matrix. I think I've finally cracked how to record in small bars filled with noisy people. Place a pair of omnis high and center and near the front if you think there will be a lot of chatter... and I place a pair of cardioids (one cardiod mic pointing at a stack and another more or less arcross the stage). I thought I would have to control each channel (L/R) gain on the cardiods but I didn't need to. Matrix the two recordings with a little tweaking with Audacity and I'm pleased with the results.

muchas gracias

silverbullet · « **Reply #28 on:** July 23, 2004, 06:31:02 AM »

I taped an outdoor arena a couple of days ago with these mics under my shirt. Came out nicely. Probably should use a bass roll off around 70-90.

Is there first aid tape or something practical to help secure small mics on my chest?

Any previous problems I've had with these mics could have been due to a faulty SP 9v battery module which was sent back and replace with no problems from the fine people at SP.

The bass roll off on the battery box (A3 adapter) that came with these mics rolls off at 300. Too much IMO but the -20 pad is worth using.

I've also taped these up on a stadium rig with good results. Makes me want to buy a nice pair of omni mics now.

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #29 on:** July 23, 2004, 06:32:46 AM »

get those mics up high!

get them in a hat or something

silverbullet · « **Reply #30 on:** July 23, 2004, 07:10:32 AM »

Quote from: Schwilly on July 23, 2004, 06:32:46 AM

get those mics up high!

get them in a hat or something

yeah, I know.

I got lucky. Quiet family to the right of me, quiet couple in front of me. Nothing on my left side (isle seat) but the people behind me were kind of loud. Some guy on a cell phone at a rock concert. You know how loud you have to talk into a cell phone at a concert? grrrrr The couple in front sat down a lot and with me at 6ft 3 standing the mics were above heads like a mic stand.

I usually prefer mics molded on top of my ears but my seat was located at the end of the isle with less cover. That and I have more tickets upcoming with front row and I need some experience for total concealment. I'm not a hat guy although I've done one outside free show with a hat. Glad I didn't bring my ear mics with me because security was really tight for a Nickelback show of all shows. Tighter than APC. I know I would have been nabbed with ear mics and a seat at the end of a row at this particular show.

leegeddy · « **Reply #31 on:** July 23, 2004, 07:17:03 AM »

i've stood a foot away from a security person with Neumann AK40's in my hat.... no problem.

modified hats/caps are great for stealth recordings.

marc

silverbullet · « **Reply #32 on:** July 23, 2004, 07:27:10 AM »

I've got a couple of recordings talking with security. One time I had these mics in my ears with a pair of CMC-8's on top of my ears and security comes over to me (I had camera in hand) asking me if I was taking video with my camera. He spoke right into my left microphone ear. Nobody's seen mics on my ears and these omni's can pass for ear plugs. I've been busted more times fumbling with wires cause I'm too lazy to go to the bathroom between sets. So with time I'm becoming more paranoid hense the mics under the shirt this time.

I used to think stealthing was real easy but then time catches up to you.

silverbullet · « **Reply #33 on:** July 31, 2004, 12:53:44 PM »

I just came from Radio Shack looking to get some extra 6v batteries for the little battery box that comes with these Soundman mics. RS only had Lithium 6 v batteries.

Anyone foreseeing a problem using a Lithium battery in place of an alkaline battery? $10 for one Li battery, ouch.

firmdragon · « **Reply #34 on:** August 01, 2004, 02:49:11 AM »

i'm not an electrician but.... i don't think so. i mean why should there be? 6v is 6v whether its lithium or alkaline

silverbullet · « **Reply #35 on:** August 01, 2004, 07:39:39 AM »

thanks. I tried it out last night for about three hours without problems. I really need to get a SP 9v box for these mights with the bass roll off option around 70-90. The A3 box roll off is at 300 and is too much. With the A3 bass roll off turn off I get too much bass at rock shows. Calling SP Monday morning. So much for buying a new $10 battery only used once.

tchoub · « **Reply #36 on:** August 19, 2004, 04:03:41 PM »

I've tried my OKM IIr and I think that those mics are decent for their price.
Still a question though :
what kind of ear plugs can you use with mics placed in ears ?
my earplugs are too large for letting me put the OKM in my ears ...
Any recommandation ?

silverbullet · « **Reply #37 on:** August 19, 2004, 04:59:03 PM »

I can't think of a way to use ear plugs with these Soundman's in your ears also. You can try sticking a small wad of cotton in first but I wouldn't recommend it. The soundman mics in the ears kind of look like ear plugs but I wouldn't stealth it that way for all shows. Gives great 3D spacial sound when playing back through headphones. Lately, I've just been draping them over my shoulders and under my shirt for total stealth and still get good results. Granted there are better techniques but I can enjoy a show much better relaxed knowing nothing is seen as I'm taping.

javi · « **Reply #38 on:** August 20, 2004, 09:36:48 AM »

i used these mics for 2 years mounting them on a black cap facing backwards
(it helped covering the wires and helped getting an unobstructed sound)

it was also confortable for me not having to worry about the mics falling from my ears

Jacob · « **Reply #39 on:** August 21, 2005, 04:24:18 PM »

I'm new to this board so I say 'hi to all the good people here

I've been recording shows since 1997 with Sony ECM-717 and thought it was about time for an upgrade. I'm looking to get Soundman OKM-II R model and after browsing various topics I still have a few questions.

Is it crucial to stay as close to the stage / PA as possible? What if I record at a 6,000-people arena placing myself near the soundboard? How will such a recording most likely turn out?

I'm using new Sony Hi-MD recorder (MZ-NH900). Is it better to use the mic-in or the line-in jack?

Any help will be greatly appreciated. Jacob.

fandelive · « **Reply #40 on:** August 25, 2005, 11:34:29 AM »

Quote from: tchoub on August 19, 2004, 04:03:41 PM

I've tried my OKM IIr and I think that those mics are decent for their price.

could you upload a sample please?

silverbullet · « **Reply #41 on:** August 26, 2005, 05:21:46 PM »

I was accidentally sent the OKM II classic mics by mistake. If you don't mind mp3 here is a sample using those mics.

I have had those mics replace with the OKM IIR version but heck, I haven't even tested those yet. Love my large diagram mics too much.

I loved the OKM II classic mics but was running into I think brickwalling at very loud shows. I can only assume the RII version would be better if not at least the same. When recording from the ears, the play back from headphones is 3D reallistically scary. Very fond of soundman mics. You can use a 9 volt battery box as well as the supplied mini battery box that is available from Soundman. I preferr my 9 volt battery box with level adjustment but I've also used the A3 mini battery box with a MD for stealthing and that worked great as well.