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Author Topic: Reverb in multitrack mixdown?  (Read 5516 times)

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Offline Sloan Simpson

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Reverb in multitrack mixdown?
« on: September 13, 2013, 02:11:55 PM »
A venue in town just moved from a previous location to my neighborhood, and has added a PreSonus board and Mac Mini to their setup in the process  ;D For the unfamiliar, it sends up to 16 channels to the Mac via Firewire, where their Capture software tracks. They were already very open to recording before, and have now been letting me run my audience mics into two spare board channels and take all the tracks on a thumb drive after the show.

I've been using Reaper to mix, and came up with decent mixes for an instrumental trio, but now I'm mixing a group with vocals. I'd assumed ( :facepalm:) previously that my mic pair in the audience would alleviate the need for reverb on the multitracks, but that doesn't seem to be the case. All the vocals are incredibly dry even with AUD mics up in the mix.

There's plenty to read on reverb, but I haven't found a lot specifically relating to live recordings where a stereo pair is present. Can anyone address a workflow in this situation? I understand the concept of setting up aux sends to a separate track for the reverb. I'm just not sure how to configure the reverb effect itself for this application.


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Re: Reverb in multitrack mixdown?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2013, 02:22:45 PM »
There's plenty to read on reverb, but I haven't found a lot specifically relating to live recordings where a stereo pair is present. Can anyone address a workflow in this situation? I understand the concept of setting up aux sends to a separate track for the reverb. I'm just not sure how to configure the reverb effect itself for this application.

So is the question about how to tweak ReaVerb to get something usable or how to setup Reaper to effectively do it?

I've done it before, I just am unsure the exact question.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: Reverb in multitrack mixdown?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2013, 02:32:01 PM »
There's plenty to read on reverb, but I haven't found a lot specifically relating to live recordings where a stereo pair is present. Can anyone address a workflow in this situation? I understand the concept of setting up aux sends to a separate track for the reverb. I'm just not sure how to configure the reverb effect itself for this application.

So is the question about how to tweak ReaVerb to get something usable or how to setup Reaper to effectively do it?

I've done it before, I just am unsure the exact question.

How to tweak ReaVerb. The things I've read about setting up reverb seem to address simulating a room, but I'm confused about how that should be done when you also have a "real" room represented by the audience mics.

I hope that makes more sense, I'm having a hard time with words today .

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Reverb in multitrack mixdown?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2013, 04:03:17 PM »
Is ReaVerb a Reaper reverb function?

I'm no help on specifics of configuring that.
But I'll ask a few annoying questions about important basic assumptions which might correct things before you even get to that point-

Quote
All the vocals are incredibly dry even with AUD mics up in the mix.

Is it reveberant enough if you consider the 2-mic AUD source as the primary source, and optimizing that as best you can on its own first, then bringing in and up only enough of the multichannel track elements to improve on what that as required- like instrument balance, clarity, presence and perhaps image placement? ..as opposed to treating the panned close mic'd mix as primary and bringing in your 2-mic AUD source simply as ambient reverb?

I'm quite biased towards the first over the second when the AUD is very good quality, but that's reflects my own personal preference based on the sound of the final product as well as it being much easier post work for me.  If you prefer the second or the situation better lends itself to that technique, consider setting up your mics in such a was as to give up optimizing the 2-ch AUD with the idea of it being able to standing on it's own and instead maximizing it's utility for what you need for the mix- optimal reverberant ambience of the room and minimial direct sound.  The AUD will sound worse on it's own but is much more likely to work better as another component in the mix.

Do only the vocals need wetting, or the entire mix?
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Re: Reverb in multitrack mixdown?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2013, 04:08:37 PM »
There are two things I look at (in general):

- Listen to the natural reverb of the room mics and compare the decay and reflection bounce. What sort of space can you deduce about the room by listening? Snare hits are awesome for this purpose to tell how long the tail is and how it decays. That helps you tweak things like width and decay.
- Alternatively, listen to the verb of just the solo'd track in question and keep what sounds good regardless of what it sounds like in the room as long as the verb added doesn't have a longer tail than the room, as it sounds rather unnatural to me to have the presence vocal reverb be longer than the room.

Either works (mimicing the room or making your own), and the choice is really in the details of how you setup the verb to mix in. Either way, I listen to the track in isolation and get that to where I think it sounds nice, and then I cut the wet/dry output value difference by almost 1/3rd to 1/2 to help it fit in with the general mix. I found the couple of times I've used reverb, that I had a tendency to add too much if I was making adjustments based on what I heard in the full mix. I'll have to open my last project this weekend where I used reaverb and see how I set it up as the reaper wiki sort of blows for this without the plug right in front of me. I will be honest though, verb is one of the few things that I dislike the Reaper plug set for and instead burn the CPU cycles and use the one that came with Ozone, which I find is just easier to setup and get comparable results.

(posting anyway since Lee posted while I was finishing and I'm too lazy to alter anything right now).
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: Reverb in multitrack mixdown?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2013, 04:16:08 PM »
Is ReaVerb a Reaper reverb function?

I'm no help on specifics of configuring that.
But I'll ask a few annoying questions about important basic assumptions which might correct things before you even get to that point-

Quote
All the vocals are incredibly dry even with AUD mics up in the mix.

Is it reveberant enough if you consider the 2-mic AUD source as the primary source, and optimizing that as best you can on its own first, then bringing in and up only enough of the multichannel track elements to improve on what that as required- like instrument balance, clarity, presence and perhaps image placement? ..as opposed to treating the panned close mic'd mix as primary and bringing in your 2-mic AUD source simply as ambient reverb?

I'm quite biased towards the first over the second when the AUD is very good quality, but that's reflects my own personal preference based on the sound of the final product as well as it being much easier post work for me.  If you prefer the second or the situation better lends itself to that technique, consider setting up your mics in such a was as to give up optimizing the 2-ch AUD with the idea of it being able to standing on it's own and instead maximizing it's utility for what you need for the mix- optimal reverberant ambience of the room and minimial direct sound.  The AUD will sound worse on it's own but is much more likely to work better as another component in the mix.

Do only the vocals need wetting, or the entire mix?
Yes, ReaVerb is the stock plugin included with Reaper. I'm not married to the idea of using it if it's a poor choice, but I thought I would start with it since it's already there.

Because of the venue's layout and not being able to run cables across the floor when there's a crowd, the AUD is probably not suited to being the primary source in this case. While I'll be doing more of these recordings at this venue in the future, and can then experiment with mic placement, I have a couple important shows already recorded that need mixing.

The vocals are the most noticeably dry. A dobro/guitar channel could use some as well. The other guitar and the bass sound OK. The drum overhead could probably use some.

From my reading it looks like I should go with a short reverb (although I don't really know how short is short) on a separate track which is being fed an aux send from the channels I want reverb on. I'm just unsure what (if anything) should be done to keep from interfering with the audience mics.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 04:25:28 PM by Sloan Simpson »

Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: Reverb in multitrack mixdown?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2013, 04:22:08 PM »
There are two things I look at (in general):

- Listen to the natural reverb of the room mics and compare the decay and reflection bounce. What sort of space can you deduce about the room by listening? Snare hits are awesome for this purpose to tell how long the tail is and how it decays. That helps you tweak things like width and decay.
- Alternatively, listen to the verb of just the solo'd track in question and keep what sounds good regardless of what it sounds like in the room as long as the verb added doesn't have a longer tail than the room, as it sounds rather unnatural to me to have the presence vocal reverb be longer than the room.

Excellent, thank you. I think this is the kind of guideline I'm looking for.


Quote
Either works (mimicing the room or making your own), and the choice is really in the details of how you setup the verb to mix in. Either way, I listen to the track in isolation and get that to where I think it sounds nice, and then I cut the wet/dry output value difference by almost 1/3rd to 1/2 to help it fit in with the general mix. I found the couple of times I've used reverb, that I had a tendency to add too much if I was making adjustments based on what I heard in the full mix. I'll have to open my last project this weekend where I used reaverb and see how I set it up as the reaper wiki sort of blows for this without the plug right in front of me. I will be honest though, verb is one of the few things that I dislike the Reaper plug set for and instead burn the CPU cycles and use the one that came with Ozone, which I find is just easier to setup and get comparable results.

(posting anyway since Lee posted while I was finishing and I'm too lazy to alter anything right now).

I'd forgotten Ozone has a reverb section, I'll give that a try; thanks.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Reverb in multitrack mixdown?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2013, 04:43:09 PM »
There are two things I look at (in general):

- Listen to the natural reverb of the room mics and compare the decay and reflection bounce. What sort of space can you deduce about the room by listening? Snare hits are awesome for this purpose to tell how long the tail is and how it decays. That helps you tweak things like width and decay.
- Alternatively, listen to the verb of just the solo'd track in question and keep what sounds good regardless of what it sounds like in the room as long as the verb added doesn't have a longer tail than the room, as it sounds rather unnatural to me to have the presence vocal reverb be longer than the room.

The first often calls for a "room emulation" type verb, the second typically a shorter, brighter "plate" type verb for vocals.

If multiple elements need some ambience because they are too dry or need to glue, then you might lightly wet the entire mix or a stereo sub mix of those elements with a "room emulation' type.  Perhaps with some additional "plate" on the vox alone.

Because of the venue's layout and not being able to run cables across the floor when there's a crowd, the AUD is probably not suited to being the primary source in this case. While I'll be doing more of these recordings at this venue in the future, and can then experiment with mic placement, I have a couple important shows already recorded that need mixing.

If you end up doing this regularly, consider trying a pair onstage facing away from the band.  Less timing problems, less direct sound competing with the  mix elements, more room.

Quote
I'm just unsure what (if anything) should be done to keep from interfering with the audience mics.

Might also try playing around with changing the alignment of the two with some delay.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 05:34:15 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: Reverb in multitrack mixdown?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2013, 04:47:04 PM »
Thanks for the responses.

I did consider facing the pair to the audience, but wasn't sure if it was a good idea so I chickened out. I'll definitely try that at future shows.

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Re: Reverb in multitrack mixdown?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2013, 05:44:01 PM »
That was probably a wise move.  It's only a good idea if the SBD mix is good enough that you feel comfortable abandoning the ability to fall back on a standard 2-channel AUD recording.

In the grand scheme of things that works out well.  You get to try it this way and determine what's required to get the mix sounding the way you want it, and try it the other way next time then determine which works best for you.
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Re: Reverb in multitrack mixdown?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2013, 01:37:57 AM »
Yes, ReaVerb is the stock plugin included with Reaper. I'm not married to the idea of using it if it's a poor choice, but I thought I would start with it since it's already there.

Offtopic, but since it sounds like you have both tools, here is my breakdown of preference:

Verb: Ozone > ReaVerb, any day of the week. Something about ReaVerb's settings just isn't conductive. I used it once in a final mix because I didn't have the processing power remaining to bring in another instance of Ozone. Anymore and I'll just render a stem with it...
Compressor: ReaComp > Ozone. ReaComp has oversampling, and better controls in terms of knee, lookahead, etc.
EQ: realistically a toss up. I like Ozone's better in terms of functionality, but ReaEQ is much easier to use in a multi-track mix. Often I'll get the settings I want in ozone and then do it in ReaEQ which sounds fine and has a lower processor requirement.
Limiter/Dither: Ozone. (period).

The vocals are the most noticeably dry. A dobro/guitar channel could use some as well. The other guitar and the bass sound OK. The drum overhead could probably use some.

From my reading it looks like I should go with a short reverb (although I don't really know how short is short) on a separate track which is being fed an aux send from the channels I want reverb on. I'm just unsure what (if anything) should be done to keep from interfering with the audience mics.

What's the purpose of the audience mics? Is it crowd reaction, spaciousness, tone? If you just need crowd reaction, consider dropping the volume of the non-interesting sections by about 4-5db, then mix to taste. That gives you people, but you don't have to worry about interfering with any reverberant information because it's low enough in the mix now that it's sort of moot. If you need reverberant information for the entire mix and that's available in the audience pair, then I'd have a tendency to look at that first before I soak an entire mix (or a large portion of it) in any amount of fake verb. If after I got appropriate amounts out of the audience pair, and still needed some on the vocals, then I'd go to work on just that track with the fake verb and use it sparingly. I'm pressed to think of an occasion where I'd take fake verb over real verb when I had an honest option between the two, but I guess it could happen. Have you tried doing compression on just the audience pair? That removes the peaks, but accentuates the audience and reverb tails, then let the sbd spots provide the dynamics and clarity that way. Lots of ways to approach it, but I'd have to hear samples in order to figure out what method I'd prefer.

Just my two cents. Hope at least some of it is useful.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Re: Reverb in multitrack mixdown?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2013, 10:35:44 AM »
I guess I was thinking about the mic pair providing spaciousness, but really it was a matter of wanting to run them for backup. Both the FOH and I are new to running the Capture software, so it'll be a few more shows before I'm comfortable without running my usual 2-channel rig. I thought since I had it I would try to incorporate it into my mix.

There's definitely lots of useful information in here, I knew I could count on this board :)

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Re: Reverb in multitrack mixdown?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2013, 12:09:22 PM »
listen to the verb of just the solo'd track in question and keep what sounds good regardless of what it sounds like in the room

This.  There is no magic one-size-fits-all setting.

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Re: Reverb in multitrack mixdown?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2013, 12:12:09 PM »
I did consider facing the pair to the audience, but wasn't sure if it was a good idea so I chickened out. I'll definitely try that at future shows.

I do this all the time for multitracks.  Generally provides good results.  I'd often set up 4 mics, two large on the outside and two small in the middle, different caps etc...  You don't have to use everything in the mix.  I use what sounds good and ignore the rest.

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Re: Reverb in multitrack mixdown?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2013, 03:16:14 PM »
Have you tried doing compression on just the audience pair? That removes the peaks, but accentuates the audience and reverb tails, then let the sbd spots provide the dynamics and clarity that way.

& that.
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Re: Reverb in multitrack mixdown?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2013, 04:16:13 PM »
For fake reverb - I like to clone the source I want to wet.

then - apply the reverb to that - and then bring that extra trackset into the mix.

Makes it a little easier to get the right blend or amount of effect/blend.

Kind of the same approach some use on a mixing live - bringing the effects back on their own fader, rather than the insert.

Nothing Reaper specific - but basic enough it should work.

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Re: Reverb in multitrack mixdown?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2013, 11:09:54 PM »
For fake reverb - I like to clone the source I want to wet.

then - apply the reverb to that - and then bring that extra trackset into the mix.

Makes it a little easier to get the right blend or amount of effect/blend.

Kind of the same approach some use on a mixing live - bringing the effects back on their own fader, rather than the insert.

Nothing Reaper specific - but basic enough it should work.

yep, I agree in that it's easier to control it that way. Only word of caution is to see if your plugin incorporates any delay. I've caught a couple with a few samples, but enough that if I did a mix of the two tracks, I'd hear comb filtering (just a little bit, in the upper registers, but a spectrogram of each track and then the mix confirmed it). In Reaper, you can render to new tracks and mute and then see what sort of sample delay you need to compensate with on the original track, and that works, just little gotchas to keep in mind.  :-\
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

 

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