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Author Topic: Stuttering while editing HD multicam  (Read 15531 times)

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Offline PhxHorn

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Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« on: July 30, 2012, 01:20:57 AM »
I'm running into some stuttering issues during preview while editing an HD multicam video in Vegas HD Platinum 10.  So far I have 2 camera angles with two hours of 1080 footage from each one, and I'm planning to add one or two more camera angles.  My graphics card is just listed as an 'Intel HD Graphics' card.   My system is as follows:  Windows 7, 32-bit, Intel Core i3 CPU, 540 @ 3.07 GHz.  Board: H55M-P33(MS-7636), 4 GB RAM, 2.93 usable.   I do have more than one external hard drive, but they are just your standard externals like Western Digital, Seagate, Iomega, etc.     I was expecting the stuttering to happen at some point, as a friend of mine who does a lot of multicam editing had mentioned I might need to upgrade my video card, so I'm wondering if (A) this system seems adequate to get the job done with a new card, and (B) what video card you'd recommend to eliminate the stuttering.  (C), do I need more RAM?   I'm not into gaming, so that is not a factor.   Thanks. 

Offline beatkilla

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2012, 01:28:57 PM »
Common issue for multicam and even for single source.What format is the footage(AVC)?

Try changing the preview mode to Draft OR most likely you will have to render your sources to another format to allow for full framerate playback.I dont use the built in multicam in Vegas as it has limitations.I use Excalibur.

What i do is sync all my sources and than create a MASTER Picture In Picture Videoof all the sources rendered to MXF format and multicam from there.I dont think the built in multicam allows this,but maybe so.

Basically shrink all your videos so you can see them and render that to one video track.

Offline phanophish

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2012, 02:53:51 PM »
My experience was less the video card and more related to IO performance of the storage.  HD video requires a lot of storage throughput particularly when dealing with multiple camera angles concurrently. 
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Offline PhxHorn

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2012, 04:00:42 PM »
Common issue for multicam and even for single source.What format is the footage(AVC)?

Try changing the preview mode to Draft OR most likely you will have to render your sources to another format to allow for full framerate playback.I dont use the built in multicam in Vegas as it has limitations.I use Excalibur.

What i do is sync all my sources and than create a MASTER Picture In Picture Videoof all the sources rendered to MXF format and multicam from there.I dont think the built in multicam allows this,but maybe so.

Basically shrink all your videos so you can see them and render that to one video track.

They are m2ts files.   There are many fragments which took hours to sync, so I don't know that I'd want to render them to something else and re-sync.   I tried switched preview to draft mode, but other than causing pixel blurriness, it didn't help much.  I did some additional web searching and there was a Youtube video that suggested opening my task manager (via ctrl-alt-delete) and changing the Vegas Video process to a higher priority.  I tried that and it seemed to improve things. 

Would it also help if I had each camera angle on a different hard drive?    The source files are on one of them.    Again, they are standard external USB2 hard drives.    If I do move one camera angle to a different hard drive, how do I tell Vegas where to find the files without re-synching it?  Thanks.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 04:30:12 PM by PhxHorn »

Offline phanophish

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2012, 06:00:05 PM »
Would it also help if I had each camera angle on a different hard drive?    The source files are on one of them.    Again, they are standard external USB2 hard drives.    If I do move one camera angle to a different hard drive, how do I tell Vegas where to find the files without re-synching it?  Thanks.

It might help a bit but honestly USB2 is relatively slow.  You should be using a SATA2 (6Gbps) attached hard drive, probably several, or possibly use a SSD for storing the source files for editing.  SSD drives offer both fast reads and super fast random access which ultimately is what you need if you are going to keep using the full AVCHD source files. 
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Jake: You traded the Blues Mobile for this?
Elwood: No. For a microphone.
Jake: A microphone? Okay I can see that.

Offline PhxHorn

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2012, 12:57:10 AM »
I must admit, I'd not heard of a solid state drive.  They sound impressive.   Any brand or model recommendations?   

Offline phanophish

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2012, 08:31:54 AM »
I must admit, I'd not heard of a solid state drive.  They sound impressive.   Any brand or model recommendations?

There are numerous good brands.   Go with the best bang for the buck.    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/buy-ssd-recommendation,3255.html

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Jake: What's this?
Elwood: What?
Jake: This car. This stupid car. Where's the Cadillac? The Caddy? Where's the Caddy?
Elwood: The what?
Jake: The Cadillac we used to have. The Blues Mobile!
Elwood: I traded it.
Jake: You traded the Blues Mobile for this?
Elwood: No. For a microphone.
Jake: A microphone? Okay I can see that.

Offline PhxHorn

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2012, 03:22:13 PM »
I tried moving all the data files to the internal hard drive, which is connected to the board with a SATA cable, but it didn't help.   

I've done some reading and watched some Youtube videos on how to install an SSD (seems like even I could grasp it), but every article and video seems to assume that I'm going to use it as my system boot drive. They go on and on about changing master/slave designation and data cloning, none of which I want to mess with. If I keep Windows and my applications on my original hard drive, and merely use the SSD to store the video files, am I going to gain anything? Seems like the faster data transfer from the SSD might remove the stuttering issues. I really don't want to mess around with cloning Windows and all my apps over to the SSD, as I'd prefer (if it's feasible) to just use the SSD for the video files so that Vegas can access them faster. Or should I at least install Vegas Video on the SDD as well?

Offline phanophish

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2012, 03:41:38 PM »
I tried moving all the data files to the internal hard drive, which is connected to the board with a SATA cable, but it didn't help.   

I've done some reading and watched some Youtube videos on how to install an SSD (seems like even I could grasp it), but every article and video seems to assume that I'm going to use it as my system boot drive. They go on and on about changing master/slave designation and data cloning, none of which I want to mess with. If I keep Windows and my applications on my original hard drive, and merely use the SSD to store the video files, am I going to gain anything? Seems like the faster data transfer from the SSD might remove the stuttering issues. I really don't want to mess around with cloning Windows and all my apps over to the SSD, as I'd prefer (if it's feasible) to just use the SSD for the video files so that Vegas can access them faster. Or should I at least install Vegas Video on the SDD as well?

You should be able to just add the drive.  It might help Vegas load faster on startup but should not impact video editing to have Vegas on the drive as well.  MAster/Slave is irrelavent for SATA drives.  I'd caution you that a SSD is your best bet to maximize your disk IO performance for HD video editing.  I'm not sure at all that even with the performance of a SSD that it will be fast enough to prevent stuttering. 
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http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/phanophish

Photo:  Nikon D300, D200, 35mm f/1.8,  50mm f/1.4, 85mm f/1.8, Nikon 17-55 f/2.8, Sigma 18-50/2.8 Macro, 18-70 f/4.5-5.6, 24-120 f/3.5-5.6 VR, Sigma 10-20 f4-5.6, Nikon 70-200 f/2.8VR, SB-800

Jake: What's this?
Elwood: What?
Jake: This car. This stupid car. Where's the Cadillac? The Caddy? Where's the Caddy?
Elwood: The what?
Jake: The Cadillac we used to have. The Blues Mobile!
Elwood: I traded it.
Jake: You traded the Blues Mobile for this?
Elwood: No. For a microphone.
Jake: A microphone? Okay I can see that.

Offline robeti

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2012, 01:01:31 PM »
If you really want to speed things up, upgrade your PC.

I work on a windows 7 (64 bit), 8GB memory, i7 @ 3,4 GHz pc with two different hard discs (in the pc) and never have problems editing and rendering 1080p multicam videos.

I dont even use a videocard other than the onboard intel card.

Some great info about pc's for editing:
http://www.videoguys.com/Guide/E/Videoguys+System+recommendations+for+Video+Editing/0x4aebb06ba071d2b6a2cd784ce243a6c6.aspx   
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kirk97132

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2012, 07:21:36 PM »
ram ram ram......8GB or more.  It's not the drives it's choking on the processes.  12GB would awesome but 8 would be minimum I"d work with. 

Offline shoestringconcerts

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2012, 02:58:46 AM »
Its not memory or your computer specs, you have enough power, something else is slowing it down.  m2ts files are relatively easy on vegas and your processor. 

You may have background programs or something slowing things up
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Offline robeti

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2012, 11:59:05 AM »
ram ram ram......8GB or more.  It's not the drives it's choking on the processes.  12GB would awesome but 8 would be minimum I"d work with.

I use 8 wich I hardly need.

8 is really enough!
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Offline Gordon

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2012, 11:29:26 PM »
ram ram ram......8GB or more.  It's not the drives it's choking on the processes.  12GB would awesome but 8 would be minimum I"d work with.

he's running a 32bit os so more ram won't do anything unless he upgrades to 64bit os.
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Offline PhxHorn

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2012, 02:12:00 PM »
I 'ungrouped' and then deleted the unnecessary audio files, which gave me a little breathing room, and I was able to add the rest of the video segments I plan to use.  But at this point, I keep getting a 'low on memory' message from the PC and the program locks up.  Since I'm running Windows 7 32-bit, with 4 GB RAM, am I correct that more RAM won't help?   Earlier on someone posted

most likely you will have to render your sources to another format to allow for full framerate playback.I dont use the built in multicam in Vegas as it has limitations.I use Excalibur.

What i do is sync all my sources and than create a MASTER Picture In Picture Videoof all the sources rendered to MXF format and multicam from there.I dont think the built in multicam allows this,but maybe so.

Basically shrink all your videos so you can see them and render that to one video track.


I'm not sure I understand the middle line in the quoted text, but since one of the camera angles is just two long segments, I might be able to render them separately to an intermediate format and then replace them in the timeline without too much trouble.     This is new to me, so if someone can recommend a setting to render to, I'd appreciate it. 

Offline Gordon

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2012, 11:04:39 PM »
windows 32bit operating systems can not see and use more than 4 gigs of ram.  that is why most folks (like us) use 64bit windows 7.  if you had a 64bit os and more ram it very well may help but I'm not sure.

I have a somewhat older build (early 2008), 8 gigs ddr2 with a core 2 duo 3ghz and SINGLE cam hd footage stutters in vegas 11
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 12:35:37 AM by Gordon »
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Offline robeti

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2012, 08:21:21 PM »
I have 8 gigs windows 7 64 bit on a sandy bridge i7 2600 3.4 ghz pc. Vegas 11 works great. Even with multi cam HD footage.
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Offline guitard

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2012, 12:57:49 AM »
My computer can't playback HD clips well.  So I:

1. Sync and then render each set of HD video clips to SD .avi
2. Slide the HD footage off to the far right of the video project (but keep it in the project on the same line)
3. Insert the newly rendered SD .av footage into the project (using cue points so that it matches the location of its HD counterpart)
4. Do all my mixing using SD footage - which is as smooth as cutting butter with a hot knife
5. Slide the SD footage off to the far right of the video project on the timeline (but leave the composite level envelope in place)
6. Slide the HD footage back to the left side of the timeline where I did all the editing of the SD footage

And now my HD footage is perfectly in sync and all the edit points are right where I want them.  I can't play it back very well because of the stuttering - but so what - I know it's in sync and mixed the way I want it - so I just render it from there - and I'm all set.
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Offline keytohwy

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2012, 06:48:39 PM »
My computer can't playback HD clips well.  So I:

1. Sync and then render each set of HD video clips to SD .avi
2. Slide the HD footage off to the far right of the video project (but keep it in the project on the same line)
3. Insert the newly rendered SD .av footage into the project (using cue points so that it matches the location of its HD counterpart)
4. Do all my mixing using SD footage - which is as smooth as cutting butter with a hot knife
5. Slide the SD footage off to the far right of the video project on the timeline (but leave the composite level envelope in place)
6. Slide the HD footage back to the left side of the timeline where I did all the editing of the SD footage

And now my HD footage is perfectly in sync and all the edit points are right where I want them.  I can't play it back very well because of the stuttering - but so what - I know it's in sync and mixed the way I want it - so I just render it from there - and I'm all set.

This is essentially what the video editing world calls working "offline".  I'm a Mac/FCP user, so I can't speak to specifics, but I would guess that Vegas has an offline format.  Essentially you would work your edits with lower resolution versions, then when you are done, Vegas would pull just the HD frames needed to complete the "online" or full rez version of the video.  Super handy for working on a laptop when hard drive space might be a premium, or, in a situation like yours, where working with full res files just over-taxes the system.

Good luck!

Offline willndmb

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2012, 10:00:01 PM »
My computer can't playback HD clips well.  So I:

1. Sync and then render each set of HD video clips to SD .avi
2. Slide the HD footage off to the far right of the video project (but keep it in the project on the same line)
3. Insert the newly rendered SD .av footage into the project (using cue points so that it matches the location of its HD counterpart)
4. Do all my mixing using SD footage - which is as smooth as cutting butter with a hot knife
5. Slide the SD footage off to the far right of the video project on the timeline (but leave the composite level envelope in place)
6. Slide the HD footage back to the left side of the timeline where I did all the editing of the SD footage

And now my HD footage is perfectly in sync and all the edit points are right where I want them.  I can't play it back very well because of the stuttering - but so what - I know it's in sync and mixed the way I want it - so I just render it from there - and I'm all set.

This is essentially what the video editing world calls working "offline".  I'm a Mac/FCP user, so I can't speak to specifics, but I would guess that Vegas has an offline format.  Essentially you would work your edits with lower resolution versions, then when you are done, Vegas would pull just the HD frames needed to complete the "online" or full rez version of the video.  Super handy for working on a laptop when hard drive space might be a premium, or, in a situation like yours, where working with full res files just over-taxes the system.

Good luck!
i dont got how to do this
can you point me in the right direction
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Offline guitard

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2012, 10:53:06 PM »
My computer can't playback HD clips well.  So I:

1. Sync and then render each set of HD video clips to SD .avi
2. Slide the HD footage off to the far right of the video project (but keep it in the project on the same line)
3. Insert the newly rendered SD .av footage into the project (using cue points so that it matches the location of its HD counterpart)
4. Do all my mixing using SD footage - which is as smooth as cutting butter with a hot knife
5. Slide the SD footage off to the far right of the video project on the timeline (but leave the composite level envelope in place)
6. Slide the HD footage back to the left side of the timeline where I did all the editing of the SD footage

And now my HD footage is perfectly in sync and all the edit points are right where I want them.  I can't play it back very well because of the stuttering - but so what - I know it's in sync and mixed the way I want it - so I just render it from there - and I'm all set.

This is essentially what the video editing world calls working "offline".  I'm a Mac/FCP user, so I can't speak to specifics, but I would guess that Vegas has an offline format.  Essentially you would work your edits with lower resolution versions, then when you are done, Vegas would pull just the HD frames needed to complete the "online" or full rez version of the video.  Super handy for working on a laptop when hard drive space might be a premium, or, in a situation like yours, where working with full res files just over-taxes the system.

Good luck!

You have several options in Vegas for the level of picture quality of the video when playing it back off of the timeline.  It will play "smoothly" at the really low quality setting, however, the picture quality is so poor, that I can't see things well enough to make proper edits.  So I opt for the process I described above.
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Offline shoestringconcerts

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2012, 02:44:49 AM »
My computer can't playback HD clips well.  So I:

1. Sync and then render each set of HD video clips to SD .avi
2. Slide the HD footage off to the far right of the video project (but keep it in the project on the same line)
3. Insert the newly rendered SD .av footage into the project (using cue points so that it matches the location of its HD counterpart)
4. Do all my mixing using SD footage - which is as smooth as cutting butter with a hot knife
5. Slide the SD footage off to the far right of the video project on the timeline (but leave the composite level envelope in place)
6. Slide the HD footage back to the left side of the timeline where I did all the editing of the SD footage

And now my HD footage is perfectly in sync and all the edit points are right where I want them.  I can't play it back very well because of the stuttering - but so what - I know it's in sync and mixed the way I want it - so I just render it from there - and I'm all set.

This is essentially what the video editing world calls working "offline".  I'm a Mac/FCP user, so I can't speak to specifics, but I would guess that Vegas has an offline format.  Essentially you would work your edits with lower resolution versions, then when you are done, Vegas would pull just the HD frames needed to complete the "online" or full rez version of the video.  Super handy for working on a laptop when hard drive space might be a premium, or, in a situation like yours, where working with full res files just over-taxes the system.

Good luck!

You have several options in Vegas for the level of picture quality of the video when playing it back off of the timeline.  It will play "smoothly" at the really low quality setting, however, the picture quality is so poor, that I can't see things well enough to make proper edits.  So I opt for the process I described above.

Randy your workflow is brutal,  just make HDV or avi proxy files and work with those and when it is time to render redirect to the original files.  If you are working with mts master files then you can rename the .m2t or .mp4 proxy files to .mts and when its time to render from masters you just rename the proxy folder and tell it to use the original files
Tascam dr2d - Tascam Dr60
Video: Canon M50/M500 (5)
Panasonic LX7 (2) - Sony EOS-M (2)
Sony HC1 - Panasonic SD600 - Sanyo FH1
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Offline guitard

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2012, 11:43:15 AM »
My computer can't playback HD clips well.  So I:

1. Sync and then render each set of HD video clips to SD .avi
2. Slide the HD footage off to the far right of the video project (but keep it in the project on the same line)
3. Insert the newly rendered SD .av footage into the project (using cue points so that it matches the location of its HD counterpart)
4. Do all my mixing using SD footage - which is as smooth as cutting butter with a hot knife
5. Slide the SD footage off to the far right of the video project on the timeline (but leave the composite level envelope in place)
6. Slide the HD footage back to the left side of the timeline where I did all the editing of the SD footage

And now my HD footage is perfectly in sync and all the edit points are right where I want them.  I can't play it back very well because of the stuttering - but so what - I know it's in sync and mixed the way I want it - so I just render it from there - and I'm all set.

This is essentially what the video editing world calls working "offline".  I'm a Mac/FCP user, so I can't speak to specifics, but I would guess that Vegas has an offline format.  Essentially you would work your edits with lower resolution versions, then when you are done, Vegas would pull just the HD frames needed to complete the "online" or full rez version of the video.  Super handy for working on a laptop when hard drive space might be a premium, or, in a situation like yours, where working with full res files just over-taxes the system.

Good luck!

You have several options in Vegas for the level of picture quality of the video when playing it back off of the timeline.  It will play "smoothly" at the really low quality setting, however, the picture quality is so poor, that I can't see things well enough to make proper edits.  So I opt for the process I described above.

Randy your workflow is brutal,  just make HDV or avi proxy files and work with those and when it is time to render redirect to the original files.  If you are working with mts master files then you can rename the .m2t or .mp4 proxy files to .mts and when its time to render from masters you just rename the proxy folder and tell it to use the original files

I'm not familiar with the proxy files.  I'll have to look into it.
Mics: Schoeps MK41s & MK41Vs >:D
Pre-amps: BabyNbox & Platinum Nbox
Deck: Sony A10

Video: Canon HF G70 (4K), Sony FDR AX100 (4K), Pany ZS100 (4K)
Photo: Canon EOS 7D w/ Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L is III USM

A/V software: Sony Vegas Pro 18 (build 527) 64 bit / DVD Architect Pro 6.0 (build 237)

Offline keytohwy

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2012, 03:20:03 PM »
My computer can't playback HD clips well.  So I:

1. Sync and then render each set of HD video clips to SD .avi
2. Slide the HD footage off to the far right of the video project (but keep it in the project on the same line)
3. Insert the newly rendered SD .av footage into the project (using cue points so that it matches the location of its HD counterpart)
4. Do all my mixing using SD footage - which is as smooth as cutting butter with a hot knife
5. Slide the SD footage off to the far right of the video project on the timeline (but leave the composite level envelope in place)
6. Slide the HD footage back to the left side of the timeline where I did all the editing of the SD footage

And now my HD footage is perfectly in sync and all the edit points are right where I want them.  I can't play it back very well because of the stuttering - but so what - I know it's in sync and mixed the way I want it - so I just render it from there - and I'm all set.

This is essentially what the video editing world calls working "offline".  I'm a Mac/FCP user, so I can't speak to specifics, but I would guess that Vegas has an offline format.  Essentially you would work your edits with lower resolution versions, then when you are done, Vegas would pull just the HD frames needed to complete the "online" or full rez version of the video.  Super handy for working on a laptop when hard drive space might be a premium, or, in a situation like yours, where working with full res files just over-taxes the system.

Good luck!
i dont got how to do this
can you point me in the right direction
tia

Will, if you are asking about the Final Cut Pro workflow for offline editing, check this out:

http://documentation.apple.com/en/finalcutpro/usermanual/index.html#chapter=91%26section=2%26tasks=true

Offline willndmb

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2012, 09:38:50 PM »
My computer can't playback HD clips well.  So I:

1. Sync and then render each set of HD video clips to SD .avi
2. Slide the HD footage off to the far right of the video project (but keep it in the project on the same line)
3. Insert the newly rendered SD .av footage into the project (using cue points so that it matches the location of its HD counterpart)
4. Do all my mixing using SD footage - which is as smooth as cutting butter with a hot knife
5. Slide the SD footage off to the far right of the video project on the timeline (but leave the composite level envelope in place)
6. Slide the HD footage back to the left side of the timeline where I did all the editing of the SD footage

And now my HD footage is perfectly in sync and all the edit points are right where I want them.  I can't play it back very well because of the stuttering - but so what - I know it's in sync and mixed the way I want it - so I just render it from there - and I'm all set.

This is essentially what the video editing world calls working "offline".  I'm a Mac/FCP user, so I can't speak to specifics, but I would guess that Vegas has an offline format.  Essentially you would work your edits with lower resolution versions, then when you are done, Vegas would pull just the HD frames needed to complete the "online" or full rez version of the video.  Super handy for working on a laptop when hard drive space might be a premium, or, in a situation like yours, where working with full res files just over-taxes the system.

Good luck!
i dont got how to do this
can you point me in the right direction
tia

Will, if you are asking about the Final Cut Pro workflow for offline editing, check this out:

http://documentation.apple.com/en/finalcutpro/usermanual/index.html#chapter=91%26section=2%26tasks=true
thanks
I'll check it out
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
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Offline shoestringconcerts

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2012, 03:30:34 PM »
My computer can't playback HD clips well.  So I:

1. Sync and then render each set of HD video clips to SD .avi
2. Slide the HD footage off to the far right of the video project (but keep it in the project on the same line)
3. Insert the newly rendered SD .av footage into the project (using cue points so that it matches the location of its HD counterpart)
4. Do all my mixing using SD footage - which is as smooth as cutting butter with a hot knife
5. Slide the SD footage off to the far right of the video project on the timeline (but leave the composite level envelope in place)
6. Slide the HD footage back to the left side of the timeline where I did all the editing of the SD footage

And now my HD footage is perfectly in sync and all the edit points are right where I want them.  I can't play it back very well because of the stuttering - but so what - I know it's in sync and mixed the way I want it - so I just render it from there - and I'm all set.

This is essentially what the video editing world calls working "offline".  I'm a Mac/FCP user, so I can't speak to specifics, but I would guess that Vegas has an offline format.  Essentially you would work your edits with lower resolution versions, then when you are done, Vegas would pull just the HD frames needed to complete the "online" or full rez version of the video.  Super handy for working on a laptop when hard drive space might be a premium, or, in a situation like yours, where working with full res files just over-taxes the system.

Good luck!

You have several options in Vegas for the level of picture quality of the video when playing it back off of the timeline.  It will play "smoothly" at the really low quality setting, however, the picture quality is so poor, that I can't see things well enough to make proper edits.  So I opt for the process I described above.

Randy your workflow is brutal,  just make HDV or avi proxy files and work with those and when it is time to render redirect to the original files.  If you are working with mts master files then you can rename the .m2t or .mp4 proxy files to .mts and when its time to render from masters you just rename the proxy folder and tell it to use the original files

I'm not familiar with the proxy files.  I'll have to look into it.

Randy, what you described was creating proxy files,  you just do it a long way.  I was offering you a simpler way of doing it
Tascam dr2d - Tascam Dr60
Video: Canon M50/M500 (5)
Panasonic LX7 (2) - Sony EOS-M (2)
Sony HC1 - Panasonic SD600 - Sanyo FH1
www.shoestringconcerts.com

Offline guitard

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2012, 01:04:27 PM »
My computer can't playback HD clips well.  So I:

1. Sync and then render each set of HD video clips to SD .avi
2. Slide the HD footage off to the far right of the video project (but keep it in the project on the same line)
3. Insert the newly rendered SD .av footage into the project (using cue points so that it matches the location of its HD counterpart)
4. Do all my mixing using SD footage - which is as smooth as cutting butter with a hot knife
5. Slide the SD footage off to the far right of the video project on the timeline (but leave the composite level envelope in place)
6. Slide the HD footage back to the left side of the timeline where I did all the editing of the SD footage

And now my HD footage is perfectly in sync and all the edit points are right where I want them.  I can't play it back very well because of the stuttering - but so what - I know it's in sync and mixed the way I want it - so I just render it from there - and I'm all set.

This is essentially what the video editing world calls working "offline".  I'm a Mac/FCP user, so I can't speak to specifics, but I would guess that Vegas has an offline format.  Essentially you would work your edits with lower resolution versions, then when you are done, Vegas would pull just the HD frames needed to complete the "online" or full rez version of the video.  Super handy for working on a laptop when hard drive space might be a premium, or, in a situation like yours, where working with full res files just over-taxes the system.

Good luck!

You have several options in Vegas for the level of picture quality of the video when playing it back off of the timeline.  It will play "smoothly" at the really low quality setting, however, the picture quality is so poor, that I can't see things well enough to make proper edits.  So I opt for the process I described above.

Randy your workflow is brutal,  just make HDV or avi proxy files and work with those and when it is time to render redirect to the original files.  If you are working with mts master files then you can rename the .m2t or .mp4 proxy files to .mts and when its time to render from masters you just rename the proxy folder and tell it to use the original files

I'm not familiar with the proxy files.  I'll have to look into it.

Randy, what you described was creating proxy files,  you just do it a long way.  I was offering you a simpler way of doing it
Typically when I'm working on a multi-cam, there are at least a couple of dozen video files.  Sometimes it's upward of 100 files when it's a 5-6 cam mix.  The way I do it now - it's one proxy .avi file for each angle - which makes it easy to work with (IMO). 

So my question: with your method - do you have to encode the files one at a time?
Mics: Schoeps MK41s & MK41Vs >:D
Pre-amps: BabyNbox & Platinum Nbox
Deck: Sony A10

Video: Canon HF G70 (4K), Sony FDR AX100 (4K), Pany ZS100 (4K)
Photo: Canon EOS 7D w/ Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L is III USM

A/V software: Sony Vegas Pro 18 (build 527) 64 bit / DVD Architect Pro 6.0 (build 237)

Offline beatkilla

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2012, 03:18:05 PM »
Just so i understand are you synching the HD clips(which are segmented...not continuous...and or have breaks)each into its own SD counterpart OR synching all segmented HD clips into the proper position and then making one long SD clip for each angle?If Yes and your having trouble with playback of the HD clips it seems that snching at that point would be prblematic.

So if you are making individual SD files for each HD clip than all you'd have to do in the project media(pool) is go to the SD clips and right click)choose replace media and point to the original HD clips.

I think your workflow if it works for you is good though.

I use scripts so my workflow is different  altogether.


Offline shoestringconcerts

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2012, 03:51:16 PM »
My computer can't playback HD clips well.  So I:

1. Sync and then render each set of HD video clips to SD .avi
2. Slide the HD footage off to the far right of the video project (but keep it in the project on the same line)
3. Insert the newly rendered SD .av footage into the project (using cue points so that it matches the location of its HD counterpart)
4. Do all my mixing using SD footage - which is as smooth as cutting butter with a hot knife
5. Slide the SD footage off to the far right of the video project on the timeline (but leave the composite level envelope in place)
6. Slide the HD footage back to the left side of the timeline where I did all the editing of the SD footage

And now my HD footage is perfectly in sync and all the edit points are right where I want them.  I can't play it back very well because of the stuttering - but so what - I know it's in sync and mixed the way I want it - so I just render it from there - and I'm all set.

This is essentially what the video editing world calls working "offline".  I'm a Mac/FCP user, so I can't speak to specifics, but I would guess that Vegas has an offline format.  Essentially you would work your edits with lower resolution versions, then when you are done, Vegas would pull just the HD frames needed to complete the "online" or full rez version of the video.  Super handy for working on a laptop when hard drive space might be a premium, or, in a situation like yours, where working with full res files just over-taxes the system.

Good luck!

You have several options in Vegas for the level of picture quality of the video when playing it back off of the timeline.  It will play "smoothly" at the really low quality setting, however, the picture quality is so poor, that I can't see things well enough to make proper edits.  So I opt for the process I described above.

Randy your workflow is brutal,  just make HDV or avi proxy files and work with those and when it is time to render redirect to the original files.  If you are working with mts master files then you can rename the .m2t or .mp4 proxy files to .mts and when its time to render from masters you just rename the proxy folder and tell it to use the original files

I'm not familiar with the proxy files.  I'll have to look into it.

Randy, what you described was creating proxy files,  you just do it a long way.  I was offering you a simpler way of doing it
Typically when I'm working on a multi-cam, there are at least a couple of dozen video files.  Sometimes it's upward of 100 files when it's a 5-6 cam mix.  The way I do it now - it's one proxy .avi file for each angle - which makes it easy to work with (IMO). 

So my question: with your method - do you have to encode the files one at a time?

You can use Batch render in SVP to create the proxy files, for the U2 Anaheim multicam I have something like 180 files to transcode
Tascam dr2d - Tascam Dr60
Video: Canon M50/M500 (5)
Panasonic LX7 (2) - Sony EOS-M (2)
Sony HC1 - Panasonic SD600 - Sanyo FH1
www.shoestringconcerts.com

Offline beatkilla

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2012, 05:01:55 PM »
is SVP meaning sony veags pro?and if yes i have only seen batch render make a file into many different formats but not  a way to choose a bunch of files and make 1 format?

Offline guitard

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2012, 11:02:39 PM »
Just so i understand are you synching the HD clips (which are segmented...not continuous...and or have breaks) each into its own SD counterpart OR synching all segmented HD clips into the proper position and then making one long SD clip for each angle? If Yes, and your having trouble with playback of the HD clips, it seems that synching at that point would be problematic.

I line up all the segmented clips that make up one angle, synch them to my audio, and then encode one SD 720X480 .avi file.  When I work with just one HD angle, the stuttering isn't too bad, so I am able to do a fairly accurate job with synching.  It's when I stack up several HD angles that the stuttering gets to where I can't do my work.  Of course, there are gaps between some of the clips - but I don't worry about them.  They just shows up as black screen.  I leave the original audio intact (but muted) when mixing (although I've already deleted the audio in the project in the picture below as the mixing is complete), and since there is no video/audio in those gaps, it's easy to see them because the audio below those gaps will be a flat line.

I start the proxy file for each angle at the same point where the audio I'm going to use in the final project starts.  So if the angle doesn't kick in until 30 seconds into the show - that angle will start off with 30 seconds of black screen.  The key to this is that I don't have to worry about establishing a cue point OR worry about something accidentally sliding out of place - as every proxy angle starts at the 0:0.00 second point on the time line.  If I notice something is out of whack with the synching - it only takes a second to get it back where it's supposed to be.

After encoding a proxy file with the original segmented HD clips for one of the angles, I group the clips for each angle into a "group" so that the gaps don't accidentally get out of synch.  I then move them off to the far right of my project - on the same timeline as their corresponding proxy file.  I like to line them up starting at the 2 hour mark of the timeline (if the show I'm working on isn't longer than two hours).  This way, if I discover something out of the synch while working with the proxy files, I can easily go back to the out of synch HD clip on the right side, ungroup the clips, make the (typically minor) adjustment, and then regroup the clips.  It's easy to find which clip - because wherever it occurs on the left side - I just add two hours because the HD clips start at the 2:00.00 mark.  Of course, this results in two cuts in the proxy clip - but it's actually fairly rare and one or two cuts in the proxy clip does not make it unmanageable.

Here's a visual example of how I do it.  The 720x480 SD .avi files are on the left side and all mixing is complete.  I know the actual cue points for the HD clips on the right.  So after I delete the clips on the left side of the timeline, I will slide everything on the right side to each angle's beginning cue point, and then encode as an HD file.

Mics: Schoeps MK41s & MK41Vs >:D
Pre-amps: BabyNbox & Platinum Nbox
Deck: Sony A10

Video: Canon HF G70 (4K), Sony FDR AX100 (4K), Pany ZS100 (4K)
Photo: Canon EOS 7D w/ Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L is III USM

A/V software: Sony Vegas Pro 18 (build 527) 64 bit / DVD Architect Pro 6.0 (build 237)

Offline shoestringconcerts

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2012, 04:31:34 AM »
Randy that is alot of effort

Store and organize all your original Hires Files to one folder

Create a set of Avi or HDV files in a 'proxy' folder with identical file structure but a slightly different root name

I used to create 720p HDV files of all my 1080i mts files, i would edit using the HDV files and then when i was done with the mix i would close SVP and then  I would rename the proxy folder and when SVP asked me where the folder went I would tell it to use the master folder and then render.    The nice part was since HDV and MTS are both mpeg streams as long as the file names are the same SVP would automatically do the substitutions for all files. 

if you can afford it just buy a decent quad core computer and you should be able to handle editing multiple mts files with only minor glitches.  I have a Lenovo Thinkpad i7-2670 with 4gb laptop and i can edit avchd 8 cams with only minor glitches, yeah i have to use preview mode but thats fine.  Computer only cost 540 and that was 6 months ago.
If you are using Sony Vegas, dont bother with more than 4 gigs or ram or a high end video card, it wont help sony vegas go any faster.
Tascam dr2d - Tascam Dr60
Video: Canon M50/M500 (5)
Panasonic LX7 (2) - Sony EOS-M (2)
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Offline guitard

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2012, 10:30:25 AM »
I'm using a 2 1/2 year old HP laptop.  I thought it was the shit when I first bought it because it could actually play HD files (previous laptop couldn't play them at all - stutters or no stutters).  I'm getting a new laptop this spring, so I should be all set once I get it.

How do you do batch encodes to 720p in Vegas?
Mics: Schoeps MK41s & MK41Vs >:D
Pre-amps: BabyNbox & Platinum Nbox
Deck: Sony A10

Video: Canon HF G70 (4K), Sony FDR AX100 (4K), Pany ZS100 (4K)
Photo: Canon EOS 7D w/ Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L is III USM

A/V software: Sony Vegas Pro 18 (build 527) 64 bit / DVD Architect Pro 6.0 (build 237)

Offline shoestringconcerts

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2012, 06:28:03 PM »

How do you do batch encodes to 720p in Vegas?

Put all the files you want to convert on a single timeline,  double click each file one at a time and hit R, once you have done them all

Tools > Scripting > Batch Render

Choose the file format you want to transcode to and where to save them

Tascam dr2d - Tascam Dr60
Video: Canon M50/M500 (5)
Panasonic LX7 (2) - Sony EOS-M (2)
Sony HC1 - Panasonic SD600 - Sanyo FH1
www.shoestringconcerts.com

Offline guitard

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2012, 08:41:04 PM »

How do you do batch encodes to 720p in Vegas?

Put all the files you want to convert on a single timeline,  double click each file one at a time and hit R, once you have done them all

Tools > Scripting > Batch Render

Choose the file format you want to transcode to and where to save them

Damn . . . too easy.  This is going to save me hours of encoding proxy files using my method) - not to mention it's going to make making corrections really easy.  Thanks!
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 02:30:25 AM by guitard »
Mics: Schoeps MK41s & MK41Vs >:D
Pre-amps: BabyNbox & Platinum Nbox
Deck: Sony A10

Video: Canon HF G70 (4K), Sony FDR AX100 (4K), Pany ZS100 (4K)
Photo: Canon EOS 7D w/ Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L is III USM

A/V software: Sony Vegas Pro 18 (build 527) 64 bit / DVD Architect Pro 6.0 (build 237)

Offline achtungpop

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2012, 03:21:12 PM »
I've never had problems to render m2ts files until the 1080p 50fps appeared ! And I don't know it it's because it's progressive or if it's 50 fps, but then my rendering on a 2 cores PC was far to be good !
So I've bought a new computer, i7 provessor and 8 Gb ram . and guess what, it's just " a few better" !! It was not better with vegas 11, but with vegas 12 the miracle happens, I can render even in optimal quality and I can now multicam without risks of unsynchro later ! But it seems it's more due to vegas 12 than to my computer !! I've read everywhere that for 1080p 4 cores is the 1st condition ... !!!

Offline guitard

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2012, 08:13:29 PM »
But it seems it's more due to vegas 12 than to my computer !!

Funny you mention that...

I just upgraded from Vegas 9 to Vegas Pro 12 last night.  I opened an HD multi-cam project in Vegas 12 that I had created in Vegas 9 - and much to my surprise - it played very smoothly.  I dare say . . . I might even be able to now edit multi-cam HD projects without creating proxy files.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 09:48:59 AM by guitard »
Mics: Schoeps MK41s & MK41Vs >:D
Pre-amps: BabyNbox & Platinum Nbox
Deck: Sony A10

Video: Canon HF G70 (4K), Sony FDR AX100 (4K), Pany ZS100 (4K)
Photo: Canon EOS 7D w/ Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L is III USM

A/V software: Sony Vegas Pro 18 (build 527) 64 bit / DVD Architect Pro 6.0 (build 237)

Offline achtungpop

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Re: Stuttering while editing HD multicam
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2012, 09:08:54 AM »
I just upgraded from Vegas 9 to Vegas Pro 12 last night.  I opened an HD multi-cam project that I had created in Vegas - and much to my surprise - it played very smoothly.  I dare say . . . I might even be able to now edit multi-cam HD projects without creating proxy files.

nice to read ! let me know if you have sometimes problems like vegas 12 which closed for unknown problem! Due to this I have to make "save" VERY often to avoid surprises, else it's still the best Vegas ever ! I don't know if I could create an automatic save like every 30 sec, do you know where we could do that please ?

 

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