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Author Topic: Comps of Sony PCM-D100 vs. PCM-M10  (Read 18022 times)

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stevetoney

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Comps of Sony PCM-D100 vs. PCM-M10
« on: December 28, 2014, 07:09:48 PM »
I finally did a comp over the last couple of nights that I'm happy with.  I had done a couple of other comps but in one I wasn't happy with the methodology and the other I wasn't happy with the music...it just didn't have any dynamics so you really couldn't tell anything from the comp.

For the comp I used the following rig; Schoeps m934b > Schoeps CMMT30 bodies > AETA PSP3 > recorder.  The PSP3 has XLRs and a line out jack.  The D100 was connected to the XLRs and the M10 was connected to the Line Out.   

So the first comp is from the opening band on Friday night.  The band is named Stationary Pebbles and this is the second track.  For this comp, I set the D100 to record direct to 24/48 PCM format.  The M10 was also set at 24/48.  The only thing done to the files in post was normalize to get about the same levels.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s3q1vzs1baducgt/sp2014-12-26.m934b.cmmt30.psp3.d100.24bit-t02.flac?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vn4vxa071isp3zx/sp2014-12-26.m934b.cmmt30.psp3.m10.24bit-t02.flac?dl=0

The second comp is the headliner named Tropidelic.  This was also the second track from their performance.  For this comp, I set the D100 to record in DSD format and then converted the file to 24/48.  There are three files.  First is the D100, second is the M10, third is the DSD file prior to converting it to 24/48 PCM.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rawv7p41uxkii7e/tropidelic2014-12-26.m934b.cmmt30.psp3.d100.24bit-t02.flac?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6vv0sn3wwj17qio/tropidelic2014-12-26.m934b.cmmt30.psp3.m10.24bit-t02.flac?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/56dj2vmmcofsb7c/tropidelic2014-12-26.m934b.cmmt30.psp3.d100.dsd-t02.dsf?dl=0

If you want to download and check out the sound of the DSD file, I recommend installing Audiogate onto your computer.  You can always delete it afterwards.  The software is a free download from Korg and the player works with the free download, though you need to have a Korg licensed product in order to free up the more useful features of the software.

http://www.korg.com/us/products/audio/audiogate3/

Finally, I thought it would be interesting to hear what the D100s internal preamps sound like compared to my external pre.  This isn't really a very good comp, since the bands are different, but it's the same night and same location.  The only different in setup is the first file is mics straight into the D100 and the second file is with the AETA PSP3 inserted into the chain.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kbmhmf4u0a6p8r2/dwb2014-12-27.m934b.cmmt30.d100.24bit-t02.flac?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cwoaoamdkdb9ddr/pppp2014-12-27.m934b.cmmt30.psp3.d100.24bit-t03.flac?dl=0
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 07:22:48 PM by tonedeaf »

stevetoney

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Re: Comps of Sony PCM-D100 vs. PCM-M10
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2014, 07:15:39 PM »
Point 1:
It seems like most comps turn into complete bitch sessions about comp methodology and whatnot.  Keep it real guys.  This is FUN and it's only for information purposes only.  If this thread devolves like all the others do, I'll lock this sucker down quick.

Point 2:
Please don't ask me to make the files smaller.  Not gonna do it.  If you don't have the time to download, then you don't have the time to listen to the comp.  It defeats the purpose anyway to put these into a compressed format.

Offline yates7592

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Re: Comps of Sony PCM-D100 vs. PCM-M10
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2014, 06:29:43 AM »
Thanks I have D/L the files and will take a good listen later. Looks a very interesting comp, I confidently expect the D100 to smoke the M10, but maybe I'll be proved wrong?

Offline carlbeck

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Re: Comps of Sony PCM-D100 vs. PCM-M10
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2014, 07:56:01 AM »
Agreed, I had the MR1000 for a while & always felt the DSD files sounded better than 24bit, it will be interesting to see where this goes, subscribed.
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Comps of Sony PCM-D100 vs. PCM-M10
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2014, 08:10:56 AM »
Quote
I confidently expect the D100 to smoke the M10, but maybe I'll be proved wrong?
There should be no audible difference in a properly conducted test, as you are in essence comparing two devices both having a flat frequency response in the significant frequencies and both having insignificant noise and distortion levels.  As the source is unfamiliar there's no basis for saying which recording is correct if a difference is perceived.  As any significant difference between the two recordings would be more likely to be down to the test rather than the recorders, that's why these threads "turn into complete bitch sessions about comp methodology and whatnot." 

Offline yates7592

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Re: Comps of Sony PCM-D100 vs. PCM-M10
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2014, 12:17:41 PM »
Well I just had a fairly brief listen to the files over a very decent usb-dac-amp-headphone system and must admit I'm struggling to hear any meaningful difference between the M10 and D100 at 24/48. I would say the DSD-sourced file converted to PCM (recorded on the D100) sounds a tad more "life-like" than the M10's file, but it's a small difference to my ears at least. "I can't playback the native DSD file (without it being converted to PCM) so I can't really comment on that. I'm going to give these files some more listening time to see if I'm missing something here.

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Comps of Sony PCM-D100 vs. PCM-M10
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2014, 06:34:52 PM »
OK, I gave them all a good listen except the DSD file. The first band, Stationary Pebbles is sooo fn close in sound that I honestly cant hear a difference between the two. However, the Tropidelic comp I can hear a LITTLE difference. Must be because you recorded that one in DSD and then converted to 24bit ;) The D100 seems to have a little more "life" and "realness" to it IMO! But just BARELY! The bass and the guitar just have a somewhat different tone to the D100 source, which I REALLY like! Now it comes down to price too! Do I think that the differences are so big that I would spend an extra $600 to get the D100? Well, that depends on what you're looking for in a handheld recorder ;)

But I STILL think the D100 is superior in every other way. The build quality, much better internal mics, and the 32gb internal memory make it a real winner IMO, and I'm sure a D100 would outlive an M10 because of its design and build quality. But I'm interested in the SOUND, not the features!!! I also like that the D100 has the gain for EACH channel, versus just ONE gain knob on the M10. And that may be what someone is after, but for MY needs, I guess I'll just stick with my [2] M10s for now, until I hear some more D100 recordings, unless the DSD source can sway my judgement that much ;) Its not like I could afford a D100 right now anyway :(

The sound is SOOO fn close between the 2 decks. I haven't given the DSD recording a listen yet though, so I may have a different opinion after I hear it ;) It actually makes me that much prouder to run an m10, because the differences are MINUTE at best IMO! Not too shabby for a 5 year old deck with just two 1/8" inputs ;) This is also just ONE comp. I would surely like to hear a few more before I write off the D100.

I wanted to give a huge thanks to my buddy Steve for putting this comp together. Its EXACTLY what I was looking for in a D100/M10 comp. So thanks my brophus lol ;D 8) Hes been giving ZMan a run for his money this year. Steve has recorded well over 300+ sets this year alone. Not too shabby at all my homie :) 8)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 03:44:03 PM by F.O.Bean »
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Comps of Sony PCM-D100 vs. PCM-M10
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2014, 06:36:06 PM »
And I honestly expected to be blown away by the differences between the D100 and M10, but alas, the differences on this comp are very minimal to my ears and my playback system!

EDIT to add: I would be extremely happy with EITHER recording Steve ;) I record at the same venue these sources are from, and these sound really good for the Thunderbird Cafe 8) Thanks again Steve ;) I didn't want you to think I was dissing EITHER recording!!! I was just giving my opinion on the differences I heard between the two decks ;) ;D 8)

And this is not a "true" comp ya know? lol ;D Just kidding brosef ;) Like I said above, this is the EXACT comp I was hoping to hear, and I really appreciate you taking the time to record the two sources and then master/UL them Tonedeaf ;D 8)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 03:47:38 PM by F.O.Bean »
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

stevetoney

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Re: Comps of Sony PCM-D100 vs. PCM-M10
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2015, 03:46:31 PM »
Sorry I've been outta town for awhile and haven't had lots of time to check in on ts.com. 

I agree with the others here with respect to the 24/48 files.  The sound of the 24/48 between the m10 and d100 are really not enough of a difference to say there IS a difference.  I felt the same way as you Bean, that there did seem like little more ummm something on the files recorded in DSD and then converted back, but I'm not sure there's so much of a difference that I'd be able to consistently pick it in a blind test.

That said, the sound from the DSD format files is wonderful.  I'm very impressed with the sound of the DSD format and for me, it's a game changer.

Is the D100 worth the price difference?  The answer is subjective.  There's no doubt that the D100 is a nicer unit...solid build quality and pro-grade.  It's feature set is certainly more comprehensive than the m10 and, although I haven't tested them, my initial impressions are that the internals on this unit are the best I've heard on a hand held.  I can confirm though what others have said...that the gain structure on the D100 makes the internals un-usble for recording live amplified music. 

Generally, I don't particularly feel that the unit is properly priced at the $799 price point...I think that's probably about $200 high.  Since they discontinued the D50 and since the D100 has enhancements over the design of the D50, I think $599 would be about right. 

That said, since DSD is a game changer for me, if I had to do it over again, I'd still probably fork out the extra $200 now that I've given DSD format a listen.  Remember though, I'm a sound 'ho and, short of spending thousands, I'll do just about anything to improve my sound, especially when for an extra couple hundred over what a D50 or used R44 would cost.  So, for me it's worth the cost difference for having access to recording in DSD format.  Now I just need to get my hands on some better software so I can do some hardcore editing in DSD format.
 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 03:54:23 PM by tonedeaf »

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Comps of Sony PCM-D100 vs. PCM-M10
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2015, 10:38:23 PM »
I totally agree Tonedeaf. I wish I could afford one and give it a try. I still haven't listened to the raw DSD file. Can't wait to check it out! And another thing, the DSD files aren't as big as I thought. You can get more recording time running the DSD format over the huge 24bit files. I would've never suspected that

Thanks again for doing all of that Steve 8)
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

stevetoney

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Re: Comps of Sony PCM-D100 vs. PCM-M10
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2015, 08:57:53 AM »
I totally agree Tonedeaf. I wish I could afford one and give it a try. I still haven't listened to the raw DSD file. Can't wait to check it out! And another thing, the DSD files aren't as big as I thought. You can get more recording time running the DSD format over the huge 24bit files. I would've never suspected that

Thanks again for doing all of that Steve 8)

You're welcome. 

I'll be putting a 128gb card in this unit, so there will be a total of 160gb on board. 

According to the back of the manual, that provides 10hr, 50min from the internal memory and 49hr, 5min from the card for a total of 59hr, 55min of DSD recording.  For a four day music festival, that's 15 hours a day of recording space on average so that SHOULD get me through just about any festival.  IIRC, All Good is usually the festival that I get the most recording done at...the middle two days of All Good typically are 18 or 19 hours of recording (start rolling at 11am and stop around 5am after last late night), but the first and last days are usually something like 8-10 hours each.  That's getting pretty close, but I have a couple of spare 16GB cards that should handle the overflow.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Comps of Sony PCM-D100 vs. PCM-M10
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2015, 09:26:07 AM »
Self-reminder to download these comps..
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

stevetoney

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Re: Comps of Sony PCM-D100 vs. PCM-M10
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2015, 10:44:53 AM »
To supplement the comp of the files, I thought it would be helpful to list a comp of the features, at least as I assess them. 

Pros of the PCM-M10 vs. PCM-D100
M10 has longer battery life (20 plus hours between changes vs. around 8 to 10 for D100)
Two batteries (vs four for D100)
M10 is significantly smaller
M10's gain structure allows for recording loud concerts with internal mics


Pros of the PCM-D100 over the PCM-M10
DSD recording format
32gb on-board memory storage
SDXC card usage (up to 128gb extra memory)
Uses SD card format (not micro-SD)
Wireless Remote
Higher quality internal mics (but can’t record loud concerts with these mics)
Independent L-R level controls
Digital input (dual function analog/optical digital input jack)
Digital output (dual function analog/optical digital output jack)
Superior headphone monitor (best I’ve ever heard)
Metal body
Built in speaker
Two user defined option buttons for frequently used functions.
Packaged with carrying case and windscreen
Brighter/larger display
A minor pro is that my DSD files seem to offload to my PC a lot faster from the D100 than 24/48 files do from the M10.  I’d guess it takes around 3 or 4 minutes to offload all of the DSD files from a show, including the warm-up band.

 
Equal/Same
Same sound quality for PCM modes of recording
Both have the same basic transport and menu controls
Both have the same five second pre-record function
Both use the same two-push-to-record scheme (double push record button to start recording or if pre-recording, push pause a second time to start recording)
Both have external switches that COULD be bumped out of place, though IMHO the M10's switches located on the back are more susceptable to bumping out of position.
Both have typical recorder controls (LCF, limiter, mark, hold, backlight, pre-record, etc.)
Same awesome monitoring (I love the green/red meters)
Same kooky file structure
Seamlessly does cross memory recording
Both have digital pitch control (though the D100 has a larger range of speeds)
Both have key control (for adjusting the key when pitch is changed)
Both have rudimentary on-board EQ for playback
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 10:52:00 AM by tonedeaf »

Offline yug du nord

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Re: Comps of Sony PCM-D100 vs. PCM-M10
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2015, 12:06:23 PM »

Finally, I thought it would be interesting to hear what the D100s internal preamps sound like compared to my external pre.  This isn't really a very good comp, since the bands are different, but it's the same night and same location.  The only different in setup is the first file is mics straight into the D100 and the second file is with the AETA PSP3 inserted into the chain.

How did you power/connect your mikes straight into the D100?? 
Good comp man...  I'll give a listen later. 

.....and how in the hell do you continuously find new/old preamps to play with??..  i find that the most interesting of all!    8)  nicely done!!
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

stevetoney

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Re: Comps of Sony PCM-D100 vs. PCM-M10
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2015, 02:04:24 PM »
How did you power/connect your mikes straight into the D100?? 
Good comp man...  I'll give a listen later. 

.....and how in the hell do you continuously find new/old preamps to play with??..  i find that the most interesting of all!    8)  nicely done!!

Hey Guy.  Whats up brother?

I have two pairs of mics based off the CMMT30 body...the first pair a well known ts.com member hooked me up with directly, the second pair I got from someone else, but the first guy had hooked that person up with those as well.  One of the mics pairs is phantom powered, so I can't run those mics directly into the D100.  However, the second pair of mics is powered from a separate box that I am powering with a 9V DVD battery.  I did a run-time test and the DVD battery will power these mics for between four and five days.  So, although the internal preamp inside of the D100 wasn't powerful enough to boost the signal on the mics up beyond around -12db, I am able to run that pair of CMMT30 bodies directly into the Line In jack on the D100.  (BTW, it's not that I'm trying to hide or keep secret who I got these from, but I've been trying to not use other peoples names in threads without their permission.)

Regarding the second question, it's just a matter of having some key contacts/sources, keeping your eyes peeled (world wide) and, probably the most important thing is having access to funds to allow for the ability to jump on deals as soon as they're offered.  You've been around long enough to know that, for the good stuff, if you wait to 'think about it' or if you need time to figure out where funds are going to come from, you lose out.  The best stuff requires you to both be lucky enough to be the first to see the deal posted AND be the first to respond saying you'll buy.  Most of the time, the stars need to line up for that to happen.

Finally, the best deal I ever got for the one piece I should have NEVER sold, I had to pay out several thousand because the piece was part of a package.  I bought the whole package in order to get the piece, then sold off the rest and kept the one piece that I was after.  The ONLY reason I latched into this deal was that the person posted the package in the middle of the night and I happened to wake up in the middle of that same night and, for some strange reason, instead of rolling over and going back to sleep I picked up my cell phone and checked the yard sale.

 

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