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Author Topic: SONY PCM-M10 (Line In or Microphone)  (Read 1715 times)

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Offline tomy01

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SONY PCM-M10 (Line In or Microphone)
« on: January 07, 2018, 04:46:31 PM »
I just picked up a used SONY PCM-M10, Ugly Battery Box and some CA-11's and I have a basic question where should I insert the microphone - in the Line-In slot or the Microphone slot?  Also, since I am using an Ugly Battery Box should I set the "Plug In Power" to ON or OFF?

Thanks

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: SONY PCM-M10 (Line In or Microphone)
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2018, 06:43:49 PM »
does your ubb have any gain? If so go line in to the Sony if no gain on the ubb mic into the Sony and add gain on the deck. Ymmv I haven't run church gear in a while.
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Offline robeti

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Re: SONY PCM-M10 (Line In or Microphone)
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2018, 07:21:31 PM »
does your ubb have any gain? If so go line in to the Sony if no gain on the ubb mic into the Sony and add gain on the deck. Ymmv I haven't run church gear in a while.


-UBB doesn't have gain. It's a battery box, not a preamp.
-Always go line in, unless the show is acoustic.
mics: nakamichi cm-50 | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | primo em4052pmi4 | sp-cmc-4u/at-u853a 4.7k mod (h/c/sc)
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Offline nulldogmas

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Re: SONY PCM-M10 (Line In or Microphone)
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2018, 08:17:41 PM »
Plug-in power = off when using a battery box or preamp, always.

-Always go line in, unless the show is acoustic.

I'd say that's an overstatement. The only difference between the M10's mic in and line in (when not using plug-in power) that I can tell is the level of gain. So you're going to want to use whichever input allows you to most easily set levels in a safe range.

I don't have CA-11s so I can't speak to how much signal they put out, but with CA-14 cards my usual settings are:

1) Acoustic/quiet electric: always go mic in, gain around 3 or 4
2) Loud electric but not overwhelmingly loud: either mic in around 2 or line in at 8 to 10
3) Very loud electric: line in at around 8

I just recorded Yo La Tengo from about 20 feet from the speaker stacks, and mic in set at about 2 worked extremely well, enabling me to peak in the -6dB range where line in would have been lower volume even cranked all the way to 10. "Only use line in on the M10 when it's so loud you need earplugs" has been a decent rule of thumb for me, though again, your mileage will vary depending on your mics.

Offline illconditioned

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Re: SONY PCM-M10 (Line In or Microphone)
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2018, 10:15:29 PM »
Depends on mic sensitivity, but I have often went with line in set at full level (10).

Then turn down for loud shows.

You may have levels a bit low sometimes, but it is better than getting "brick wall" distortion.
(Ie., overload of input stages).  In my experience, I would not run gain below about #3 on the Sony.
Turning down to #2 may get the peaks down on the meters, but you are likely pushing the input stage pretty hard...

Have fun.

  Richard

Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

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Offline nulldogmas

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Re: SONY PCM-M10 (Line In or Microphone)
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2018, 10:37:23 PM »
In my experience, I would not run gain below about #3 on the Sony.
Turning down to #2 may get the peaks down on the meters, but you are likely pushing the input stage pretty hard...

As noted above, that's not my experience — I've gotten good results (no brickwalling) with the M10 mic input gain down below 3.

If you want to be on the safe side, though, by all means run line in at 10 in those situations. So long as you're getting the optimal amount of signal, it's all good.

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: SONY PCM-M10 (Line In or Microphone)
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2018, 10:47:19 PM »
FWIW, the sound on this was recorded with an M10 going mic in at ~2 gain with a Church UBB and CA-14 cards:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKjZvwyvxhU

Peaking between -3 and -6 dB on that song, which was the loudest of the set.

Offline Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan

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Re: SONY PCM-M10 (Line In or Microphone)
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2018, 11:32:58 PM »
FWIW, the sound on this was recorded with an M10 going mic in at ~2 gain with a Church UBB and CA-14 cards:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKjZvwyvxhU

Peaking between -3 and -6 dB on that song, which was the loudest of the set.

There's a Hi-Lo switch (attenuator), where was that set?

On the Sony DAT decks if you were on Lo sensitivity and had to drop the dial below 4-4.5 you were usually brickwalling, obviously it's not the same deck but whether or not Hi or Lo sensitivity engaged is entirely relevant.

Do the church cards have a bass roll-off? If so input could have an effect on the roll-off point between Line and Mic.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 11:35:26 PM by Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan »
Maybe a couple of small scratches, but thats because these mics are chick magnets.
Girls always up on Andy tryin to grab these mics, the scratches are from their wedding rings.

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Offline robeti

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Re: SONY PCM-M10 (Line In or Microphone)
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2018, 09:40:18 AM »
FWIW, the sound on this was recorded with an M10 going mic in at ~2 gain with a Church UBB and CA-14 cards:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKjZvwyvxhU

Peaking between -3 and -6 dB on that song, which was the loudest of the set.

Why take the risk?
Peaking at -3? Seriously?

Too much stress for me. Especially since I always stealth multiple rigs (audio and video).

What works most relaxed for me is: line in, check levels, set recorder and forget about it.

My peak levels are usually around -12.
mics: nakamichi cm-50 | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | primo em4052pmi4 | sp-cmc-4u/at-u853a 4.7k mod (h/c/sc)
power: ca-ubb | ca-9200
recorder: roland r-05
video: panasonic hdc-sd600 | panasonic hdc-700 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: SONY PCM-M10 (Line In or Microphone)
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2018, 10:49:24 AM »
-2 to 3 for me, I can't  break the habit of setting hot dat levels.  :facepalm:
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Offline morst

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Re: SONY PCM-M10 (Line In or Microphone)
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2018, 12:28:20 PM »
If you are running the M10 on line in, and the input level knob must be set less than 2, then you are getting close to brick wall but probably not there yet. If input is less than 1 to avoid peaking, then you are brickwalling the input. :banging head:

I run levels hot. Must peak over -6 at least occasionally or I feel like I'm not using all my bits!  :bawling:

I am not scared of the red lights flashing briefly, but it's my cue to turn input levels down.

I run with limiter ON.
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Offline tomy01

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Re: SONY PCM-M10 (Line In or Microphone)
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2018, 01:10:32 PM »
So it looks like the consensus is to run with the "Line-In" port.  What about the "Plug in Power" setting - If I am using an Ugly Battery Box should the PIP be set to the ON or OFF position?

Thanks 

Offline illconditioned

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Re: SONY PCM-M10 (Line In or Microphone)
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2018, 01:16:39 PM »
So it looks like the consensus is to run with the "Line-In" port.  What about the "Plug in Power" setting - If I am using an Ugly Battery Box should the PIP be set to the ON or OFF position?

Thanks
Here is my experience,
NOTE: Depends on output level of microphones,

low levels (voices at home, lectures from the audience
  HI SENS, MIC IN #4 to #6

Moderate music (some acoustic, light amplified)
  LO SENS, MIC IN #4 to #6

Loud amplified rock, anything where I need to turn down below #3 on LO SENS
  LINE IN #10, and move down for really loud

If you're using a battery box, turn off plug in power.  That is in the DETAIL menu.

By the way, for very low levels, such as acoustic music, ambient sounds,
you may be able to run mics directly from Plug in Power to mic in, without the battery box.
Less connections = less chance of failure.

Do some experiments and have fun!

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan

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Re: SONY PCM-M10 (Line In or Microphone)
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2018, 03:54:02 PM »
So it looks like the consensus is to run with the "Line-In" port.  What about the "Plug in Power" setting - If I am using an Ugly Battery Box should the PIP be set to the ON or OFF position?

Thanks

If you're using a battery box, PIP off, the battery box is supplying your mics power.

Only the Mic input will provide PIP, the LINE input will not.
Maybe a couple of small scratches, but thats because these mics are chick magnets.
Girls always up on Andy tryin to grab these mics, the scratches are from their wedding rings.

CMC641 / DPA4022 / DPA4062>mod MPS6030
V3 / PMD671 / field ready DV-RA1000 / Oade W-mod PMD661 / PCM-M10

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: SONY PCM-M10 (Line In or Microphone)
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2018, 07:23:46 PM »

There's a Hi-Lo switch (attenuator), where was that set?

It was on Hi.


Do the church cards have a bass roll-off? If so input could have an effect on the roll-off point between Line and Mic.

Nope, no bass roll-off.

I could easily have just gotten lucky by pushing the limits of the mic in jack and not quite hitting them. (There are some old posts on TS that say that the M10 is in a safe gain range so long as it's set between 2-10.) But my point is that mic in can safely be used even in moderately loud situations, if for some reason you want to.


Why take the risk?
Peaking at -3? Seriously?


Yo La Tengo is always a challenge to record, since they'll typically mix ear-blastingly loud songs with whisper-quiet ones, sometimes back to back. I was shooting for peaks at -12 to -6, but the times I've gone much lower to be on the safe side, I've ended up with bad hiss on the quiet tracks. I've found it's preferable to record slightly hotter and let the limiter take care of stray peaks. (And the -3 peaks were strays, mind you — the vast majority of the music was below -6.)

Here's an example of a Yo La Tengo show where I "set it and forget it" with the line in jack at close to 10, and ended up with some hissy quiet songs:

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?returnto=%2Faccount-cp.php&id=593747


NOTE: Depends on output level of microphones,

low levels (voices at home, lectures from the audience
  HI SENS, MIC IN #4 to #6

Moderate music (some acoustic, light amplified)
  LO SENS, MIC IN #4 to #6

Loud amplified rock, anything where I need to turn down below #3 on LO SENS
  LINE IN #10, and move down for really loud


That's a reasonable guide, I agree.

If you're using a battery box, turn off plug in power.  That is in the DETAIL menu.

Yes, PIP does nothing useful if you're using a battery box. The M10 should also pop up a query about whether to have PIP on or off when you plug something into the mic in jack.

By the way, for very low levels, such as acoustic music, ambient sounds,
you may be able to run mics directly from Plug in Power to mic in, without the battery box.
Less connections = less chance of failure.


I like to have the battery box regardless, since the additional voltage makes sure you're getting everything you can from your mics. But yeah, for quieter stuff, in a pinch, it won't matter much if you ditch the battery box and use PIP.

 

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