Topic: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10

[bombdiggity]

I've made some more tests today.

I think the "problem child" in the chain is the A3-Adaptor, not so much the circuits of the LS-12.

If I connect the OKM Rock mic directly to the mic in, I think I get the best results so far. Plug-In Power was of course On.

But I'm afraid of the behaviour of the mics during loud live concerts without the A3-Adaptor. According to the manufacture, the maximum sound pressure level of my OKM Rock mic is 131 dB.

Should I take the chance?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6uqci5m7hraWERsUTZZaTlmTE0?usp=sharing

01 OKM-Rock to A3 to Mic-In - Sesitivitiy Low.wav
02 OKM-Rock to A3 to Line-In - Max Rec.-Level 30.wav
03 OKM-Rock to Mic-In - Plug-In-Power Sesitivitiy Low.wav (IMO best result)

A few thoughts here:

1) The first comp (which showed a major difference) included the A3 in both but generated very different results:

01 OKM-Rock to A3 to Line-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "flat"
02 OKM-Rock to A3 to Mic-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "bassy"

So there is a substantial difference between line-in and mic-in.

2) The A3 is a variable that may introduce coloration (which may also act unfortunately with the coloration from the recorder circuitry).  When working through questions like these you have to consider every piece in the chain. 

3) A 131 dB max SPL is quite good (if accurate).  I'd hope you're not at anything that loud.  You'd know it...  Maybe test it on a few things that aren't a big deal and see how it goes... 

[Pittylabelle]

A few thoughts here:

1) The first comp (which showed a major difference) included the A3 in both but generated very different results:

01 OKM-Rock to A3 to Line-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "flat"
02 OKM-Rock to A3 to Mic-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "bassy"

So there is a substantial difference between line-in and mic-in.

2) The A3 is a variable that may introduce coloration (which may also act unfortunately with the coloration from the recorder circuitry).  When working through questions like these you have to consider every piece in the chain. 

3) A 131 dB max SPL is quite good (if accurate).  I'd hope you're not at anything that loud.  You'd know it...  Maybe test it on a few things that aren't a big deal and see how it goes...

Thank you very much for your reply and patience!

Made another more "neutral" test, via the standardized line-out jacks of my tapedeck:

01 Tapedeck line-out to Olympus LS-12 line-in
02 Tapedeck line-out to Olympus LS-12 mic-in

Result: No audible coloration of the two soundfiles! Hooray, problem solved - The A3 is in fact the "problem"!

Another question:
According to the manufacturer, the OKM Rock will not get enough power without the A3 to work properly on loud events.

Any experience in this case?

[Todd R]

A3 is the "problem" sounds correct.

Just in general, a battery box uses a resistor and a capacitor in its circuit.  The values of these components, together with the input impedance of the recorder will determine where there is a bass rolloff and whether it is outside of the audible range (that is, roll-off occurring at below say 20Hz).

The line input of the LS10 has in input impedance of 78,000 ohms for the line in (2,000 ohms for the mic in).  In comparison, the Sony M10 has a line input impedance of 22,000 ohms.

With these differences and depending on the resistor and capacitor values for the A3, you could end up with the bass roll-off of the A3 plugged into the LS10 at say 40Hz (meaning, signal -3db down at 40Hz and -9db down at 20Hz).  Which isn't much roll-off, at least when considering concert recording where there is often an awful lot of low frequency content -- subwoofers cranked way up.

Plug the A3 into the M10 with an input impedance of 22,000 Hz and the bass roll-off occurs at closer to 80Hz -- meaning -3db down at 80Hz, -9db down at 40Hz, and -15db down at 20Hz.

These are made up numbers here, but in the realm of possibility, with the actual numbers depending on the specifications and components used in the A3.

But it is definitely possible given the differences in the line input impedance of the M10 compared to the input impedance of the of the LS10 that using the A3 battery box will result in a noticeable bass roll-off when used with the M10 that isn't heard when using the LS10.

[Pittylabelle]

A3 is the "problem" sounds correct.

Just in general, a battery box uses a resistor and a capacitor in its circuit.  The values of these components, together with the input impedance of the recorder will determine where there is a bass rolloff and whether it is outside of the audible range (that is, roll-off occurring at below say 20Hz).

The line input of the LS10 has in input impedance of 78,000 ohms for the line in (2,000 ohms for the mic in).  In comparison, the Sony M10 has a line input impedance of 22,000 ohms.

With these differences and depending on the resistor and capacitor values for the A3, you could end up with the bass roll-off of the A3 plugged into the LS10 at say 40Hz (meaning, signal -3db down at 40Hz and -9db down at 20Hz).  Which isn't much roll-off, at least when considering concert recording where there is often an awful lot of low frequency content -- subwoofers cranked way up.

Plug the A3 into the M10 with an input impedance of 22,000 Hz and the bass roll-off occurs at closer to 80Hz -- meaning -3db down at 80Hz, -9db down at 40Hz, and -15db down at 20Hz.

These are made up numbers here, but in the realm of possibility, with the actual numbers depending on the specifications and components used in the A3.

But it is definitely possible given the differences in the line input impedance of the M10 compared to the input impedance of the of the LS10 that using the A3 battery box will result in a noticeable bass roll-off when used with the M10 that isn't heard when using the LS10.

Thank you so much for this fantastic explanation and the resulting confirmation! ;-)

Any solution for my next "problem" without the A3?:
According to the manufacturer: If the OKM Rock mic is connected only via the recorder's plug-in-power, it will not get enough power to work properly on louder events (distortions).

[bombdiggity]

A few thoughts here:

1) The first comp (which showed a major difference) included the A3 in both but generated very different results:

01 OKM-Rock to A3 to Line-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "flat"
02 OKM-Rock to A3 to Mic-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "bassy"

So there is a substantial difference between line-in and mic-in.

2) The A3 is a variable that may introduce coloration (which may also act unfortunately with the coloration from the recorder circuitry).  When working through questions like these you have to consider every piece in the chain. 

3) A 131 dB max SPL is quite good (if accurate).  I'd hope you're not at anything that loud.  You'd know it...  Maybe test it on a few things that aren't a big deal and see how it goes...

Thank you very much for your reply and patience!

Made another more "neutral" test, via the standardized line-out jacks of my tapedeck:

01 Tapedeck line-out to Olympus LS-12 line-in
02 Tapedeck line-out to Olympus LS-12 mic-in

Result: No audible coloration of the two soundfiles! Hooray, problem solved - The A3 is in fact the "problem"!

Another question:
According to the manufacturer, the OKM Rock will not get enough power without the A3 to work properly on loud events.

Any experience in this case?

Well your detective work is admirable. 

This combined with the reply below about the variability of input impedances and my less technically informed suspicion of some unfortunate mismatching between components seems to be the answer. 

Very odd but apparently the input impedance of the line-in and the mic-in are different on that recorder, which in combination with the A3 generates the differing roll-offs. 

So with your next question:

First what does the manufacturer say the power requirements are for the mic?  Second what power level does the LS-12 supply through plug-in power?  Plug-in power from most recorders is usually 3.5V as I recall.  Small mics seem to require anything from 3V to 9V.  A substantially lower power output than needed will typically cause problems. 

Another option would be a different battery box, power supply or pre-amp that matches up better. 

[Pittylabelle]

Well your detective work is admirable. 

This combined with the reply below about the variability of input impedances and my less technically informed suspicion of some unfortunate mismatching between components seems to be the answer. 

Very odd but apparently the input impedance of the line-in and the mic-in are different on that recorder, which in combination with the A3 generates the differing roll-offs. 

So with your next question:

First what does the manufacturer say the power requirements are for the mic?  Second what power level does the LS-12 supply through plug-in power?  Plug-in power from most recorders is usually 3.5V as I recall.  Small mics seem to require anything from 3V to 9V.  A substantially lower power output than needed will typically cause problems. 

Another option would be a different battery box, power supply or pre-amp that matches up better.

Thanks for nothing! ;-)

Technical data:

Directionality: omni directional
Frequency range: 2o – 2o ooo Hz +/- 3dB
Sensitivity: 5 mV/Pa +/- 3 dB
-46 dB ref 1V/Pa +/- 3dB

Acoustic pattern: reversed
SPL: 131 dB
(131 dB, K= 3 % U gr. als 7,5 V, R=18 kOhm)

Equivalent Signal/Noise cautions:
dB ( A-weights), effective 26 dB
Peek: ( CCIR 468-2 filter: 39 dB

Feed Voltage: 4,5 V…+15 V

[bombdiggity]

Thanks for nothing! ;-)

You're most welcome...   

Feed Voltage: 4,5 V…+15 V

Looks to me like those mics want 4.5V of power. 

As I said I think "plug-in-power" from most recorders is 3 to 3.5V, but some may be less.  So not a huge mismatch but it could certainly be enough that they underperform.  Some smaller mics like DPA's require 9V so no chance those even work at all with P-I-P...

If you can find the spec for what the LS-12 supplies that may get you closer to the theoretical answer. 

I'm a great believer in trial and error, but research may eliminate the worst of the potential errors... 

[nulldogmas]

Is there a reason you can't just run Line In at maximum gain and then amplify in post?

[Pittylabelle]

Is there a reason you can't just run Line In at maximum gain and then amplify in post?

Don't know exactly what you mean, but as said before, I have to push the line-in record level at maximum gain to get a level of -12, on relative loud live concerts.
Yes, then in fact I have to amplify the file to -3 dB in "postproduction". It's not possble to get that recording level of -12 on quiter concerts or events.

But, as bombdiggity said before, the line-in sound of my LS-12 in combination with the A3 is too "thin".

So, all I wanted to do was to switch to mic-in - but this resulted into the described coloration of the sound.

But this problem should be solved now.

[Life In Rewind]

Must admit that until I pitched-up here a few days ago the world of battery-boxes was totally unknown to me. Must admit I do raise a quizzical eyebrow.... But then things are often VERY different on opposite sides of the pond.... Not wrong, just different... 

If it was me I'd be looking for a preamp with XLR ins (and mics to fit of course) and then use an appropriate lead to connect to the line-in of the recorder. There are several of these about as used by the DSLR gang.

... and on the question of line-in vs mic-in... the majority of amateur (and not so amateur) recorders just put a -20dB pad on the line in and then route it to the mic preamp! I haven't checked the circuit of the LS-12, but would be very surprised if it WASN'T like that...

Battery boxes have been around for decades now - built out of the DIY scene - and eventually became key products for CORE, SoundPros and Church Audio (among others)

Many of these battery box devices were conceived and designed with live-music tapers as the target audience.

Size is important when engaging low-profile recording scenarios...the smaller the better, hence low-pro guys don't want XLRs or extra preamps.

Also - recently, A LOT of guys (open tapers) have moved on from the "separates" approach.

For sure, there was a time when you had slews of guys toting V3s, MixPres, UA5s and even rack gear, to connect with a downstream recorder, ideally connected with a digital connection, allowing the recorder to function as a simple "Bit Bucket"

As newer recorders emerged - like the DR-680, DR-70, ZOOM H6. F8 and F4 - tapers have started leaving their preamps at home...we now have nice clean quiet front ends that can handle loud music...

[rippleish20]

Must admit that until I pitched-up here a few days ago the world of battery-boxes was totally unknown to me. Must admit I do raise a quizzical eyebrow.... But then things are often VERY different on opposite sides of the pond.... Not wrong, just different... 

If it was me I'd be looking for a preamp with XLR ins (and mics to fit of course) and then use an appropriate lead to connect to the line-in of the recorder. There are several of these about as used by the DSLR gang.

I doubt we do things much differently over "here" but there may be a more active community of people producing atypical equipment over here for more specialized purposes. If I'm open taping I normally use equipment you would probably consider more "normal" - A deck with phantom power and XLR connections, etc.  When I do real stealth recording, however, the smaller the equipment the better. AT853s in conjunction with a battery box and a M10 is pretty small.  Schoeps capsules and an active cable to an IFA is also really small. 

[Pittylabelle]

Thanks for nothing! ;-)

You're most welcome...   

Feed Voltage: 4,5 V…+15 V

Looks to me like those mics want 4.5V of power. 

As I said I think "plug-in-power" from most recorders is 3 to 3.5V, but some may be less.  So not a huge mismatch but it could certainly be enough that they underperform.  Some smaller mics like DPA's require 9V so no chance those even work at all with P-I-P...

If you can find the spec for what the LS-12 supplies that may get you closer to the theoretical answer. 

I'm a great believer in trial and error, but research may eliminate the worst of the potential errors...

Hello, it's me again.

Well, I took the chance and recorded my next show without the A3 (yesterday). The mic was connected directly to the mic-in of the Olympus LS-12.
Settings: sensitivity "High", plug-in-power "On", recording level "15"
My position: centered ca. 3 meters!!! in front of the PA speakers

It was a relative loud and heavy indoor rock concert:
"Jethro Tull's Martin Barre - 2016 11 13 Dortmund Germany"

Result: absolutely NO distortons or clippings in the file!!!
Just a "beautiful"wave courve.

Seems that the OKM II Rock mic is able to work properly with the delivered plug-in-power of the Olympus LS-12. But I must admit, I haven't found any revealing infos before, about the exact plug-in-power.

What do you think?

Cheers

[bombdiggity]

Hello, it's me again.

Well, I took the chance and recorded my next show without the A3 (yesterday). The mic was connected directly to the mic-in of the Olympus LS-12.
Settings: sensitivity "High", plug-in-power "On", recording level "15"
My position: centered ca. 3 meters!!! in front of the PA speakers

It was a relative loud and heavy indoor rock concert:
"Jethro Tull's Martin Barre - 2016 11 13 Dortmund Germany"

Result: absolutely NO distortons or clippings in the file!!!
Just a "beautiful"wave courve.

Seems that the OKM II Rock mic is able to work properly with the delivered plug-in-power of the Olympus LS-12. But I must admit, I haven't found any revealing infos before, about the exact plug-in-power.

What do you think?

Cheers

Bingo...  If it can handle what is likely to be as loud as anything you'll go to you're fine... 

[Pittylabelle]

Bingo...  If it can handle what is likely to be as loud as anything you'll go to you're fine...

Finally, I received the technical specs from the manufacturer of my "Rock Classic Variant" microphone, from Soundman Berlin, Germany:

"This capsules operates with 3 Volts. Thereby it is able to record a SPL of 131 dB. The A3, as you have gathered, is therefore oblsolete -
at least the A3 would not make possible a higher sound pressure."

www.soundman.de