Topic: Yet another dSLR thread: Canon, Nikon, Pentax, ~$1,200 budget, not for concerts

[bluntforcetrauma]

Why Nikon and not Canon? I am just wondering.

There isn't much difference in terms of the final results.  After all, the photographer and the technique have much, much more to do with a good photo than the camera.  The "feel," menu systems and layout are probably a bigger difference.  I don't subscribe to the notion that one of these brands is better than the other.   Like the Nikon D80, the Rebel XTi is plastic.  The D200 is a metal body, weather/dust sealed...and much higher priced.  I was recommending that camera as one of the better ones you can buy today at a great price point.

Your questions about freezing the action in dimly lit concerts and for portraits raises a sticky issue for most digital cameras: low light performance.  You camera and lens selection looks pretty well balanced...I might opt to throw in a 35mm or 50mm prime capable of faster performance than f/2.8   

What sunjan writes is true, only an external flash will lock in your results in many situations.  The on-board flash in a lot of these cameras is either too much at short range or too little at longer focal lengths.  I have and use an SB800 and utilize bounce or a Lightsphere diffuser, even in daylight.  I don't think anything matches natural lighting with a fast lens, but having said that, there are situations where it simply doesn't work.  They now make a little diffuser for Nikon or Canon that goes over the onboard flash. (One is called the "Puffer Pop-Up" and is sold for less than $10 on eBay.)  I've not tried it.  I just wonder whether spending $300 on a full-blown flash can find room in the budget.  Maybe it should.

great stuff, thanks.  I was looking at the canon D40 ( i htink that is it) its up there around 1,000 or so and the XIT is half that, I just thought for what i was doing right now that the xti is worth the price since it seemed to be mroe than half than the other and i thought the performance wasnt bad. But agin tht low light situations do arise.  I love natural light, i was shooting some yesterday in natural light versus flash and natural light looks great.  And again i will need indoor low light capabilities, so i will look for a better flash which can cover the distance. 

what  specefic 25 or 50 mm would you recommend with a faster performance tha f2.8?

[phanophish]

what  specefic 25 or 50 mm would you recommend with a faster performance tha f2.8?

Canon & Nikon Both make a 50/1.8.  They are around $100 and the best value for fast glass on either platform.  If you are feeling spendy both also make a 1.4 and while you get 2/3 of a stop faster glass, you start getting in to razor thin depth of field that makes getting good images a challenge.

I will add that (and I may be a bit biased here) I also think Nikon has Canon beat in their flash performance.  Particularly when you talk about off camera wireless flash.  Nikon's CLS system is superior.

[Brian Skalinder]

Just a reminder to everyone to be cautious with internet purchase:  ~$12k worth of scamming at Nikonians.org

Not a reflection on Nikonians.org, necessarily, just a reminder to be careful!

[cgrooves]

Brian-
Don't know if you pulled the trigger yet, but I just completed research on DSLR gear with the same budget you referenced and came up with this:

Canon 30D (refurbished)
Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8
Canon 50mm f/1.8

All of that ran right at your budget.  I found that the Tamron is getting better reviews than the Sigma (18-50mm), and the reviews on the Tamron are not too far off from the canon lens reviews for a substatially cheaper price (The Tamron is much noisier, but I can deal with that for the savings).  The fixed lens should be great for the really low light concert stuff and provide super sharp images in regular lighting at that focal range.  With such a great reputation vs. the low cost, I thought that fixed lens purchase was a no-brainer.  If funds can be secured in the future, adding the 17-200mm to the above gear would be perfect for my needs.   

[Brian Skalinder]

Well, I went against nearly all the advice provided:  Pentax.     For ~$100 under my budget (tack on a couple filters and I've reached my budget):

• Pentax K10D  |  very lightly used;  solid, durable body, rated for > 100,000 actuations (more than I'll ever use)
  
• Pentax D-BG2 vertical grip / battery holder  |  really liked the vertical grip on my old Nikon N80, glad I found this at a reasonable price
  
• Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8-4.5  |  decided I wanted the extra reach of the 70mm v. the 18-50 f/2.8;  I may regret losing a bit of speed in return for longer reach, in which case I'll switch to the 18-50 with very little, if any, additional cost
  
• Pentax SMCP-FA 50mm f/1.4  |  must-have for indoors, low light, etc.
  
  

High ISO performance was a consideration, with the 30D edging out the K10D and N80 in pixel-peeper tests.  But unless cropped significantly, I had a tough time telling the difference in high ISO handling between the D80, 30D, and K10D.  Given I'm not doing large prints, I'm not terribly concered about it.  (The K10D in-body shake reduction also played a role in this consideration, as it provides a ~2 stop edge over the D80 / 30D, given I simply don't foresee shelling out the $$$ for IS/VR lenses.)

As the above parenthetical comment suggests, I ultimately weighted the in-body shake reduction more heavily than the slightly better Canon ISO performance.  Even if I decide to splurge on a fast ~70-200 f/2.8 tele zoom (simply can't see myself needing anything longer), which costs about the same - without IS/VR - regardless of mount, the added benefit of in-body shake reduction tipped me towards the K10D.  To get IS/VR in a 70-200 Canon or Nikon would cost nearly double, and I just don't see myself spending that kind of cash.

Outside of a 70-200 f/2.8, I just don't see myself going hog-wild with additional lenses, so the far broader lens options for Canon and Nikon don't particularly resonate with me.  And as for availability, I've found plenty of used Pentax gear in various places - enough, at least, to satisfy my limited needs and desires.

Other thoughts:

• D80 grip felt best in my hands (perhaps because it's similar to the N80 to which I'm accusomted?), K10D grip next, 30D last.
• Liked the K10D / D80 front & rear dials;  didn't like at all the 30D dial on top of and behind the shutter release button
• Liked the K10D thumb-accessible AE-Lock, exposure compensation, and AF buttons; disliked the 30D / N80 top button / finger access to the same buttons
• Preferred the easy access of the N80 / 30D ISO setting hard-button, despite the top / finger button location;  no ISO hard-button a downside to the K10D until I learned I may map ISO setting access to the rear thumb-accessible OK button
• Really liked K10D's easy access to DOF preview by rotating the On/Off button with the index finger; felt like a much more natural motion than the DOF preview button on the front/left side of the D80 / 30D
• Liked the K10D swift menu access (Fn hard-button + single directional pad push) to detailed White Balance, ISO Sensitivity, Drive Mode, and Flash Mode settings;  didn't play around enough with the D80 / 30D to get a feel for whether the hard-buttons provided same level of detail access to settings (if left to menu access, the D80 / 30D required more scrolling / button pushing to access these detailed settings)

So...there it is.  It's clear from the LOADS of really great pictures from all the cameras I considered that the real challenge will be developing my technical and artistic skills (a loooong stretch, mind you, especially the latter).  Anyway, just wanted to provide an update.  I really appreciate everyone's feedback - thanks! 

[gearscout]

Congratulations!

Now, force yourself to get out there and take at least one "keeper" a day!   

[phanophish]

Enjoy the new camera!  For all we agonize over equipment the reality is most of it is very capable of outstanding results.  It seems to me you went in really having a good grasp of what the features/benefits of the various options are.  So now that you are a member of the DSLR club we want to see some images.....

[Frank in JC]

Yeah Brain, enjoy it. 

When I bought a compact digital camera last spring I didn't predict that less than a year later, I'd have a DSLR, a handful nice lenses, and significantly improved skills.  Considering the thought you've obviously put into this decision, it wouldn't be hard to imagine you becoming more enthusiastic as time goes on. 

Now join Flickr!