Topic: first time concert shooting advice

[Jimna]

im catching DBT thursday in harrisburg.  ive been reading till the wee hrs on how to use the new camera (rebel XT w/ 24-70 f2. but still feel completely confused and lost on which situation to use which setting.  i do know i cant expect the first time out to render the best pics in the world, but hope some are worth while. 

so do i just want to run in the Av mode?  or is manual mode (M) what i want to do, keeping my f # low and shutter speed high? 

also the day after, friday, my wife is graduating from grad school.  why i have your attention what would people recommend in this situation?  its in a large performing arts building.  BJ gave me his 2cents on this, but any other opinions are welcome here too, as this is much more important to me than the concert.  this night is a huge moment for my family and i cant get it back, so no fucking this up!


one last newb question; does anyone here use the auto focus?  or is everyone here using the manual focus?  i took pics of my kid last night using the AF that after close inspection were slightly out of focus.  not sure if i could do any better manually but i figured any advice on this would be good to know as well.  all the reading ive been doing has nothing on the matter, maybe for obvious reasons, i dont know.


thanks
jim

[Sanjay]

For concerts what I do is this:

Get as close as you can, obviously, I feel that the closer you are the less light falloff will occur before it reaches your lens, maybe I'm wrong and that's not scientific I just feel that way.
Always shoot in Manual, AV mode will not account for the situation and will often try and over expose the shot.  Start with 2.8 and a shutter speed of around 1/200th depending on the light, then gradually work it up or down.  Remember you can always half correct underexposed shots, but if you blow out the image with too much brightness you can't correct that.

Zoom in on the shot to check focus, when focus starts to go you've gotten the shutter speed usually too slow (around 1/60th).  Shoot in RAW, you can always work better afterwards with that.  I don't know what your ISO capabilities are, but depending I would say keep your ISO at 800 or above, if it starts to look ridiculously grainy, lower the ISO.  The Truckers have an open photo policy, so take your time, you have all show.  I use autofocus, but then again my lenses focus more or less correctly.  Try setting a static focus point and using that instead of letting it autoselect for you.  IF that doesn't work read in your manual on how to calibrate a lens for a camera.

Now following those guidelines depending on the lighting you are going to get different results.  These were shot at two different shows, each at 1/200th of a second, same ISO, the worse one was at 1.8 and more wide open than the better one.  Point being, sometimes it's a crapshoot and don't be disappointed if your results aren't that good.  Some clubs like the 9:30 club I can't get a good shot if my life depends on it (but this weekend I will)

good lighting: f2.8 1/200th of a second


bad bad lighting f1.8 1/200th of a second


For your wife's graduation it will be very much the same method as a concert, except you might be able to go to f3.5 and keep the shutter speed around 1/400th or higher.  Test it out on people who aren't important.

[spreetaper]

I myself shoot mainly AUTO (ISO 800-1600) and usually the following lenses listed below

I usually use Tv and i adjust from 1/30 to 1/300 or so accordingly through shows where needed
since your almost always shooting in low light if not very low light the aperture will take care of itself usually as low as it can go 2.8/1.8/1.4 depending on the lense
last but not least I actually do both up front and from the taper section/just front of board area
then again I am 6' 8 and can see over just about everybody with ease from anywhere in a venue most of the times
this also allows me to take shots just about no one else can.. like looking directly eye level at the keyboard player and his/her hands

to finish I am certainly an amateur and always learning new things and will probably be doing more manual focus in the future
but for now I am happy with my results
plenty of samples in the rig pictures section..

24-70mm f2.8
70-200mmf2.8
50mm f1.8
85 f1.8
50mm f1.4   

[Jimna]

great advice, thanks.  i think ill be following this recipe to the T.  very nice pics sanjay!  i can only hope for something that crisp.  hopefully the concert tomorrow will be a good lesson for me to pull better pics at graduation. 

i never realized how deep photography is, but man i really like it.  i feel slightly obsessed this last week...

[jdawg]

I may see you at the show, going to try and make it.  I second Sanjay's advice. I always shoot in manual mode, most recently using the 85 1.8.  I tend to stop it down to 2.0 for a little more depth. So in your case, keep it on 2.8, and manually set the ISO. My 40D handes iso1600 with no problem, the XT may be a little more sensitive to noise when set that high. Then just adjust the SS until the exposure looks good. I also use AF - with a custom selected point, rather than the camera selecting multiple points to focus on. Again, not sure how much flexibility the XT gives you on selecting the focus point. If I do make it out, I'll give you more pointers there!

[Jimna]

I may see you at the show, going to try and make it.  I second Sanjay's advice. I always shoot in manual mode, most recently using the 85 1.8.  I tend to stop it down to 2.0 for a little more depth. So in your case, keep it on 2.8, and manually set the ISO. My 40D handes iso1600 with no problem, the XT may be a little more sensitive to noise when set that high. Then just adjust the SS until the exposure looks good. I also use AF - with a custom selected point, rather than the camera selecting multiple points to focus on. Again, not sure how much flexibility the XT gives you on selecting the focus point. If I do make it out, I'll give you more pointers there!

awesome!  looking forward to meeting ya.  the hands on advice will be much appreciated, i excel at this type of learning.  i dont know about the XT's ability to handle ISO at 1600, but it can do it.  i also can pick my focus point too. 

so is f/2.8 slow?  i see lots of f/1.8 and 1.4 on your lenses. 

i hope the crowd is cool to leave my stand and shoot....

[jdawg]

so is f/2.8 slow?  i see lots of f/1.8 and 1.4 on your lenses. 

i hope the crowd is cool to leave my stand and shoot....

It's all about getting more light in there so you can increase that shutter speed while maintaining a respectable noise level (iso). Shooting in these local bars/clubs, yes, you'll want to have something faster
than 2.8. I'm also a fan of prime lenses, no zoomin' for me, too many other settings to worry about. I find it best to just move around and work on composing the shot that way. Highly recommend the Canon 85 f/1.8.

[Sanjay]

2.8 isn't slow, it's pretty much the standard for concert and other low light photography.  Sometimes though it doesn't cut it, heck sometimes a 1.4 won't cut it.

The rule is the lower the f stop number, the faster the lens.  The lenses you see with 1.8 and 1.4 are prime lenses, they don't make any zooms that I know of that are lower than 2.8.  So for the moment you're fine, you've got a great zoom at the lowest f stop available.

In the future you might want to consider picking yourself up a 1.8 prime.  The 50mm 1.8 for Canon is an exceptional lens, perfectly sharp and with your camera actually makes it about 75mm focal length.  It's also very cheap at around $100.  That would be  a good purchase for you for later.

[BJ]

one last newb question; does anyone here use the auto focus?  or is everyone here using the manual focus?  i took pics of my kid last night using the AF that after close inspection were slightly out of focus.  not sure if i could do any better manually but i figured any advice on this would be good to know as well.  all the reading ive been doing has nothing on the matter, maybe for obvious reasons, i dont know.

thanks
jim

if the focus isn't working, you might need to take it to a local shop and have it cleaned.  That camera is a few years old, but i have only used it once in over 6 months (April 12th for my sons B-Day).  I'll go look at those pics to see if the AF was off.  I had it in my bag as a backup, but never really found an opp. that I needed a backup.  I never noticed the AF not working, so it could just be the contacts need cleaning, not sure.  I would assume that the contacts on the lens are clean as they are brand new.

If you have problems that concern you...talk to me...I dont want to sell something you aren't happy with.

BJ

[cgrooves]

one last newb question; does anyone here use the auto focus?  or is everyone here using the manual focus?  i took pics of my kid last night using the AF that after close inspection were slightly out of focus.  not sure if i could do any better manually but i figured any advice on this would be good to know as well.  all the reading ive been doing has nothing on the matter, maybe for obvious reasons, i dont know.

thanks
jim

if the focus isn't working, you might need to take it to a local shop and have it cleaned.  That camera is a few years old, but i have only used it once in over 6 months (April 12th for my sons B-Day).  I'll go look at those pics to see if the AF was off.  I had it in my bag as a backup, but never really found an opp. that I needed a backup.  I never noticed the AF not working, so it could just be the contacts need cleaning, not sure.  I would assume that the contacts on the lens are clean as they are brand new.

If you have problems that concern you...talk to me...I dont want to sell something you aren't happy with.

BJ

+T

[Jimna]

indeed, plus t for the honesty and willingness to take it back but thats not necessary, BJ.  at this point i would blame user error first.  hell who knows what i was doing, but the pics i took yesterday seem fine.  tonight will be the first real test.  but no worries, i really like this camera so far and couldnt be happier with it, thanks again.


i agree that more glass might be a good idea down the road, sanjay.  i really need the wife to score that big job so i can have my long desired sugar mama.  thanks for the reassurance on my lense though, makes me feel better about the decision.  so is a prime lens a type not a brand?

[BJ]

a prime lens means it doesn't zoom.  50mm is a prime(fixed)  24-70 is a zoom.

[cgrooves]

Jimna-

Pick up that canon 50mm 1.8 lens when you get an extra $85. 
It's a 'no brainer' purchase, IMO.

[Jimna]

a prime lens means it doesn't zoom.  50mm is a prime(fixed)  24-70 is a zoom.

i see, thanks for the clarity.

Jimna-

Pick up that canon 50mm 1.8 lens when you get an extra $85. 
It's a 'no brainer' purchase, IMO.

seems like good advice.  i used to spend that much cash on blank DATs over a few months...

[Jimna]

thanks for everyones help.  whatcha think for a virgin on my cherry breaker night out?  http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103637.new.html#new

[Jimna]

thanks again for the awesome transaction BJ, this thing has brought me lots of joy so far.  the biggest advantage to this hobby over taping is i dont have to have a concert going on to indulge.  its more enjoyable day to day so to say.

my wifes grad pics turned out ok.  i got a little emotional during her hooding and kinda blew the pics then, but everything else is good.  i over exposed the shit out of the stage shots though .  all is well, i captured most of a major milestone with success.  she gave me a thumbs up.

[BJ]

hey..are you shooting raw or only jpeg?

if you have raw files..for the graduation, it looks like the lighting was harsh (gym?)  open the raw files in the digital photo professional, and choose a different light source(there is a dropdown box with things like "tungsten, flourescent, daylight etc"  choose one that corrects the white balance on those shots.  you will be amazed the difference in quality when you do that.  You can also add a little bit of contrast, sharpness, and saturation of the colors (dont over do that one tho as it shows quickly).  Just add a little bit of each of these after you correct the white balance, and export to JPG.  You can also do some Noise reduction if needed, but i think 3rd party programs are a little better.  If you are only shooting jpg's, there is another program in there that can do all of these functions also, but I dont know how well it works, or anything about the functionality, so I really can't help on that one.

few hints on the portrait (from a total newb, but its the first things that jump out at me)
I know the light SUCKED, b/c you were at f2.8 1/100 @ iso 1600 (not NEAR as grainy as I would have expected tho...excellent!)
on portraits, rotate your camera 90* so you dont clip her head.  You also might want her to stand a little further from the wall, and you be as close as possible, it will help blur the background a little and put the emphasis on her.  The capture (expression, happiness) is excellent!
finally, try to pay attention to the light source, if you would have moved yourself to the left a few feet and made her turn, the shadows would be less.  finally, this would have been a PERFECT opp for the 50 1.8 (more light, less Depth of field), I see you shot at full zoom (70mm), I think opening up to 24 and getting closer would be better in that situation (but it may have been crowded, etc) but you did great and captured shots that you can be proud of.
 
sanjay and buff will probably have better hints, as I believe they do some portrait/candid photos of people.  Other than my son, I don't shoot peoples a whole lot (ITS TOO HARD!)

[Jimna]

thanks!  ill try to open the raw files (yes i took both) and see what i can do. 

im very happy with this camera though!  thanks so much.

[Sanjay]

ADVICE

Those are pretty spot on observations, wouldn't have said it any different.  Nice advice, also agree on that 50mm.... that thing is gold. I don't do too much of this stuff, I do unconventional portraits, but def fool with the raw file... If you want me to have a stab at a few email them to me and I'll be happy to give it a try.  It looks like it needs to have the WB adjusted and desaturate a bit.

One trick I use to save shitty portraits is to make them black and whites, it really can get you out of a jam.

[cgrooves]

RE:  Concert Shooting Advice
Do you guys recommend shooting in AWB, or changing the setting to Tungsten (or something else)?


BTW, Nice Shots Jimna!

[Sanjay]

RE:  Concert Shooting Advice
Do you guys recommend shooting in AWB, or changing the setting to Tungsten (or something else)?


BTW, Nice Shots Jimna!

Depending on your camera you can either manually set your white balance or do auto.  The D300 does the white balance pretty spot on, so I leave it at auto and usually only have to rarely tweak it.  If I was to set it as something other than Auto I'd manually set it for the room.  If I needed to change the white balance I ALWAYS do it in post processing.  Doing it there will most always result in a higher quality image, plus if Tungsten or whatever setting isn't what you wanted you won't have to double process and degrade the image.   Basically Auto will prob be fine.  It's your ISO, F stop and Shutter speed which make up 80% of what you need to get right.

[Jimna]

very interesting, im going to give some this a try this weekend.  ive just gone with AWB too so far.

so ive caught on to what my ISO needs to be for low light, but whats more conventional for day to day stuff?  how do i determine what ISO to use when im shooting outside or around the house?  ive spent most my time reading about aperture and SS which seemed like the most important aspects thus far, but not that much has been said about ISO or how to gage it.

read on, i know...

[jdawg]

very interesting, im going to give some this a try this weekend.  ive just gone with AWB too so far.

so ive caught on to what my ISO needs to be for low light, but whats more conventional for day to day stuff?  how do i determine what ISO to use when im shooting outside or around the house?  ive spent most my time reading about aperture and SS which seemed like the most important aspects thus far, but not that much has been said about ISO or how to gage it.

read on, i know...

yep, read on is right 

Here's a nice write-up to check out. I'm sure there's are tons of these out there, just one I had handy.
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=414088

Bottom line, everything comes with a price. You want fast shutter speeds with big aperture, chances are you'll need a high ISO value. Shooting outdoors, landscapes, where you want to increase the DOF, (high f-stop number) then you can lower the ISO. 100,200, etc...

so anyway, just keep shooting in different environments, lighting conditions, and experiment.

[cgrooves]

Nice link, jdawg.

ive spent most my time reading about aperture and SS which seemed like the most important aspects thus far, but not that much has been said about ISO or how to gage it.

This past weekend I was taking some shots of kids on a horse that was being led.  I was shooting in manual.  I wanted everything sharp & in focus.  The lens I was using is sharpest in the 5.6-8.0 f stop range, so I initially set it in the middle.  I wanted to freeze action, so I set my ss to around 1/800.  I pressed half-way to see what kind of exposure I was getting in that lighting at those settings, and then adjusted my ISO as needed (I believe it was 400 that I ended up using).  Once I had these 3 variables roughly dialed in, I just made minor f stop & ss adjustments for each shot as needed to get proper exposure.  My problem at this point is being fast enough with the minor f stop & ss adjustments to catch the shot I want and have it properly exposed.  Shooting in manual mode hasn't become second nature to me yet, and I often miss the money shot by thinking too much about my adjustments. 

I'm new to photography as well, but that method has worked well for me and follows the suggestions in jdawg's link.  (i.e. determine what your priorities are first and adjust the 3 variables to get the exposure you need)

[stirinthesauce]

 
sanjay and buff will probably have better hints, as I believe they do some portrait/candid photos of people.  Other than my son, I don't shoot peoples a whole lot (ITS TOO HARD!)

Being paged for advice?   

 

BJ, you gave some good tips.  Best thing about shooting in raw is being able to taylor your color schemes to your particular need.  With jpeg, what you got (as for WB) is what you get.  Raw, just change it.  And most important, practice, practice, practice!

[jdawg]

BJ, you gave some good tips.  Best thing about shooting in raw is being able to taylor your color schemes to your particular need.  With jpeg, what you got (as for WB) is what you get.  Raw, just change it.  And most important, practice, practice, practice!

I change the WB (curves, etc) on JPG's all the time in Photoshop. Works great, imo. I have yet to shoot exclusively in raw. On some occasions I'll shoot RAW+JPG, but not that often. Again, depends on what you're shooting and how much time you want to spend on PP.

[BJ]

One last thing..i CANNOT stress enough the need for a calibrated monitor.  When I made my first suggestions, I was basing it off what I saw on my work monitor (dell 19" LCD)  when i got home, and came back to the thread..the pictures was SOO different, b/c of my monitor calibration.  Check Amazon for a Pantone Huey..i picked up a brand new unit for 50$ 

Nice link, jdawg.

ive spent most my time reading about aperture and SS which seemed like the most important aspects thus far, but not that much has been said about ISO or how to gage it.

This past weekend I was taking some shots of kids on a horse that was being led.  I was shooting in manual.  I wanted everything sharp & in focus.  The lens I was using is sharpest in the 5.6-8.0 f stop range, so I initially set it in the middle.  I wanted to freeze action, so I set my ss to around 1/800.  I pressed half-way to see what kind of exposure I was getting in that lighting at those settings, and then adjusted my ISO as needed (I believe it was 400 that I ended up using).  Once I had these 3 variables roughly dialed in, I just made minor f stop & ss adjustments for each shot as needed to get proper exposure.  My problem at this point is being fast enough with the minor f stop & ss adjustments to catch the shot I want and have it properly exposed.  Shooting in manual mode hasn't become second nature to me yet, and I often miss the money shot by thinking too much about my adjustments. 

I'm new to photography as well, but that method has worked well for me and follows the suggestions in jdawg's link.  (i.e. determine what your priorities are first and adjust the 3 variables to get the exposure you need)

thats the way I do it too..start with the fstop, as it determines your depth of field..then ss, then ISO.  That way you can fine tune as you need with the minor adjustments!

[stirinthesauce]

ahh, monitor calibration.  I second the pantone huey rec.  Made a world of difference to me.

jdawg, your right about jpeg in photoshop.  I'm a bit different in my workflow.  I usually assign my whitebalance and get a "recipe" in canon dpp, do a batch process and convert all my raw's to tiff and then pick the ones I want to tweak in pcs3.  My jpeg conversion is the absolute last thing I do as I want all my processing done on uncompressed files.

[phanophish]

For portrait stuff I always shoot Raw as the WB is too critical.  For concert stuff I usually end up setting for tungsten.  I'll frequently shoot JPEG so I can fit more images on the card as you are always limited time wise and I use the burst capability to fire off several quick frames.  with portrait stuff it tends to be more controlled so I'm more selective.  here's some I took of my niece & nephew last weekend...

[Sanjay]

BJ, you gave some good tips.  Best thing about shooting in raw is being able to taylor your color schemes to your particular need.  With jpeg, what you got (as for WB) is what you get.  Raw, just change it.  And most important, practice, practice, practice!

I change the WB (curves, etc) on JPG's all the time in Photoshop. Works great, imo. I have yet to shoot exclusively in raw. On some occasions I'll shoot RAW+JPG, but not that often. Again, depends on what you're shooting and how much time you want to spend on PP.

With a large enough jpg file it will work great, but with a raw file it will work better.  You get artifacts and quality degredation doing edits in jpg.

For instance, it's akin to converting your .wav file to mp3, boosting the levels, adjusting things and then converting it back to .wav.

[jdawg]

BJ, you gave some good tips.  Best thing about shooting in raw is being able to taylor your color schemes to your particular need.  With jpeg, what you got (as for WB) is what you get.  Raw, just change it.  And most important, practice, practice, practice!

I change the WB (curves, etc) on JPG's all the time in Photoshop. Works great, imo. I have yet to shoot exclusively in raw. On some occasions I'll shoot RAW+JPG, but not that often. Again, depends on what you're shooting and how much time you want to spend on PP.

With a large enough jpg file it will work great, but with a raw file it will work better.  You get artifacts and quality degredation doing edits in jpg.

For instance, it's akin to converting your .wav file to mp3, boosting the levels, adjusting things and then converting it back to .wav.

My point was really to say that - it's not like you have to be shooting in RAW format ALL the time. Nor is it to say that you should always be shooting in manual mode. Especially for folks just getting started in DSLR (myself included). Even the last show that I shot I was in Av mode for a time and got plenty of great shots without having to tweak settings on a moments notice. Post processing is a whole other ballgame. I think it makes more sense to learn the camera settings/modes first and everything else that goes along with that. Using JPG's initially you'll save space and PP time on the backend. Again, like I mentioned before, it all depends on what you're shooting. RAW certainly has its place.

[Sanjay]

That's true.  If I'm shooting family or something simple, just put it into autofocus and jpg and go.

Maybe for me it's easier than most to translate to the MF since I used a MF Nikon SLR for 12 years first.  Maybe not... But for concerts shooting in RAW will pay dividends on the few images you do edit. 

[Frank in JC]

My point was really to say that - it's not like you have to be shooting in RAW format ALL the time. Nor is it to say that you should always be shooting in manual mode. Especially for folks just getting started in DSLR (myself included). Even the last show that I shot I was in Av mode for a time and got plenty of great shots without having to tweak settings on a moments notice. Post processing is a whole other ballgame. I think it makes more sense to learn the camera settings/modes first and everything else that goes along with that. Using JPG's initially you'll save space and PP time on the backend. Again, like I mentioned before, it all depends on what you're shooting. RAW certainly has its place.

Absolutely.  There's nothing wrong with shooting in aperture-priority mode, especially when combined with exposure compensation.  In fact, it's often a better approach!  The only mode I never use is "program."

I also agree, the most important thing is understanding the principles of photography and how to apply them.  It's not rocket science, but there is a lot to think about.

When I first starting using a DSLR I never shot RAW, only JPEG.  It wasn't the biggest mistake, but now I really see the benefit, particularly if there's a lot of shadow detail or the image is underexposed.  When I tried to bring out the detail by dodging or some other means on a JPEG, I often got noise and compression artifacts.  Now I shoot RAW + JPEG, but only keep RAW files of my better images.

[Jimna]

I also agree, the most important thing is understanding the principles of photography and how to apply them.  It's not rocket science, but there is a lot to think about.

When I first starting using a DSLR I never shot RAW, only JPEG.  It wasn't the biggest mistake, but now I really see the benefit, particularly if there's a lot of shadow detail or the image is underexposed.  When I tried to bring out the detail by dodging or some other means on a JPEG, I often got noise and compression artifacts.  Now I shoot RAW + JPEG, but only keep RAW files of my better images.

thats saying a mouthful right there!

i think thats the best idea ive heard!  shoot in both formats and simply delete whats not important as you view them the first time.  save space and maybe a keeper that might be lost too. 

.......maybe this reflects my desire to record audio in higher resolution too, irregardless of the extra storage needs and arguments of its audible better quality.  if its worth the effort why not!?!?

great link jdawg, thanks.