Topic: looking for a camera for tapping live music

[liamskelter]

hello this is my first post here, your forum is nice. I´m looking to purchase a new camcorder to record live music , i have problems with my last sony HDD camcorder because the loud audio crashed down the recording session with the famous "buffer overflow" error. I´m looking for a camera (HDD if is possible) to record live music without any problem. Can you help me? sorry by my english ! LOL

[guitard]

You need to find a camera that allows you to control the audio recording level.  Unfortunately, there are not many out there.  And even those few that do, they were not made with the thought of recording loud music - so they don't work out that well, even with the levels dialed down.

You're best bet is to find a videocam that you like - that has an mic in jack - and get some decent mics and a battery box or preamp so you can control the audio that's going into the camera.

[stober]

I had a sony HDD camcorder that did the same thing. I use a Panasonic PV-GS 500 now. Great picture quality.

[KurtMichaels]

If audio is really important to you, do not use the cam to record the audio, but an external recording device. What does my HV 20 record? 12 Bit or 16 Bit, MPEG 2 Audio @ 384 kBit/s or something like that. You can use a standard line in mic with an external power source - don't bother with that shoe that some cams have. And don't let people tell you to buy a directional microphone, just get binaurals.
Internal mics of cams tend to behave in two alternative ways: they can deal with loud volumes and produce low detail sound or they can't deal with loudness but produce detailed low volume sound.
I'd even say concentrate on video and let a second guy do the audio - he will be more experienced anyway. Benefit of that is that you have one less thing to worry about. On the downside you have nothing if he fails.

Any why exactly a HDD cam? There hasn't been a HDD cam yet where the video compression didn't look worse then those of good old Mini DV tapes. It might make more sense to use a AVCHD cam, put a lot of money in memory cards - the HD scaled down for a SD DVD will eliminate some compression issues.

If you have the money, buy a HV 30 or a second-hand HV 20 - some people sell the latter right now to buy the former. Yes, they are expensive, but they will last you.

And one last sentence - If I had to chose between a expensive cam and no equipment or a cheap cam + tripod + good mics then I'd go for the latter.

[Chaosu]

I see miniDV is recommended, but then, it doesn't last for too long, so You have to switch tape during the show, isn't that irritating? I would like to avoid it, and practice shows that ...?

[rastasean]

I wouldn't get HDD as far I I could throw them...wait, bad analogy.

I would record audio separately for certain or at least have better mics going into the camera with a battery box of some kind.

I agree with this:
If I had to chose between a expensive cam and no equipment or a cheap cam + tripod + good mics then I'd go for the latter.

[stantheman1976]

I'm a hardcore proponent of MiniDV.  I'll use the format until the day I die.  Some people get hung up on the fact that SP is only 1 hour and you might have to change tapes and lose a short amount.  It takes 30 seconds to change a tape.  The amount you lose (if you lose any) will be offset by the ease of editing your footage.  Those HDD cameras record in compressed MPEG video that is not meant to be easily altered.  You have to transfer DV in real time but it is meant to be easily edited.  Plus you get the advantage of a physical tape to store your footage on that will last for a long time.

As for audio, you should definitely upgrade from the in camera mic.  You can find a cam that has a mic port and get a good external mic and/or use a separate audio source altogether.  Getting a new audio source synced to your video is not that difficult once you get the basics down.

I use Panasonic PV-GS series.  I have a GS300 and 320 and I have regular access to a GS400.  They are all good cameras.  The 320 is the affordable model that is still in production but it lacks a mic input.  I've looked into the Canon HV20/30 models and I like them a lot.  You can record SD and it has a mic jack and some otehr good features.  I'm not too keen on the idea that the HD is MPEG compression though.  The idea of starting with anything more than DV compression just doesn't sit right with me yet.  Maybe I'll be proven wrong in the future but for now that's my gut reaction.

[stevetoney]

^^ I have also video recorded many shows and second what the others are suggesting.  Use mini-DV gear and use external audio recording gear.  Then synch the two together on the computer.  What you want to know and remember is that getting good/satisfying concert vids is probably equal parts technique, gear/hardware, and software. 

Technique - Ask questions and read the forum

Gear/Hardware - Follow the advice given above

Software - For video processing, get Vegas or a similar product
For audio processing, get Audition or a similar product
For DVD mastering, get DVD Lab Pro or a similar product

[Chaosu]

liamskelter, sorry for hijacking your thread but it looks perfect for my needs

i am going to attend a show in sitting venue and i know there will be two tapers, so i may go for video! great idea as band dont have any so far, yet its quite known (at least some of its members)

at first i thought about HP camera (photo) with video recording support, cheapest, easiest to use, with flash memory, but even i guess that MPEG-1 320x240 is no good...

i don't have any video-camera and i dont have money for one but if im already trying, why not try to do it best? i saw some gnr fan, who recorded some shows and is trading only for miniDV masters (uncompressed), i usually don't have enought time to listen music, so im sure that after taping that show it will take few months (or few years) to get it done, so i wish my show would be interesting in a few years (opposed to outdated, if im not too clear), so here are my questions:
1. does it really (really really) looks better to tape in SP mode and get somthing missing than taping LP?
2. and i heard LP mode is dangerous, not worth trying if i really want to tape the show?
3. what about HD quality, do i need it or not?
4. is tripod needed so much? laying camera on my knees isn't enough?
5. do every videotaper look at screen whole time? isn't light from it too shiny (to get caught?)
6. static shot on stage, no zooms etc, boring or may be interesting?
7. should i take seat in the back and corner or i may get a nice view for myself (my guess is no, camera will have too narrow 'look'
8. audio taping may be 100% stealth, looks to me like i need kind persons on my left and right?
9. how to know when to start recording
10. if you managed to this question, any other tips?

[stantheman1976]

liamskelter, sorry for hijacking your thread but it looks perfect for my needs

i am going to attend a show in sitting venue and i know there will be two tapers, so i may go for video! great idea as band dont have any so far, yet its quite known (at least some of its members)

at first i thought about HP camera (photo) with video recording support, cheapest, easiest to use, with flash memory, but even i guess that MPEG-1 320x240 is no good...

i don't have any video-camera and i dont have money for one but if im already trying, why not try to do it best? i saw some gnr fan, who recorded some shows and is trading only for miniDV masters (uncompressed), i usually don't have enought time to listen music, so im sure that after taping that show it will take few months (or few years) to get it done, so i wish my show would be interesting in a few years (opposed to outdated, if im not too clear), so here are my questions:
1. does it really (really really) looks better to tape in SP mode and get somthing missing than taping LP?
2. and i heard LP mode is dangerous, not worth trying if i really want to tape the show?
3. what about HD quality, do i need it or not?
4. is tripod needed so much? laying camera on my knees isn't enough?
5. do every videotaper look at screen whole time? isn't light from it too shiny (to get caught?)
6. static shot on stage, no zooms etc, boring or may be interesting?
7. should i take seat in the back and corner or i may get a nice view for myself (my guess is no, camera will have too narrow 'look'
8. audio taping may be 100% stealth, looks to me like i need kind persons on my left and right?
9. how to know when to start recording
10. if you managed to this question, any other tips?

1. LP is the same as SP quality-wise.  LP simply spaces the information closer together on the tape to fit more into the same space.  Some caeras drop audio to 12 bit for LP.  The higher bitrate you can start with the better.
2. Tapes recorded in LP can be difficult to transfer with other cameras besides the one they were recorded in.  If you use the same camera for recording and playback you won't have issues.  If you use a different camera or send the tape to someone else they might have problems.  Also because the information is spaced closer together in LP if you have any type of dropout or problem with the tape you'll lose more at one time.
3. HD is higher quality but requires some decent PC power to edit.  To stay in HD you'll need a Blu-Ray burner and only people with BR players can watch it.  For normal distro you'll have to down-res to SD, but since you started with a high quality source you should get good results.
4. Tripod depends on the enviornment.  You need some type of stabilization.  In stleath situations you deal with your enviornment as best as you can but in open situations a tripod improves results dramatically.  A shaky hand held shot is harder to watch and high motion footage, like that from a hand held, needs to be encoded at a higher bitrate when it goes onto DVD or you can get more noticeable compression artifacts in your final product.  Steady shots from a tripod can help you fit more onto your final DVD.
5. Stealth techniques vary and may not be kosher to discuss.  If you're running open it's really your choice.  Stealth is just as it sounds, trying not to be seen so you can really answer your own question there. 
6. Static shots are an opinion.  Generally, having a one angle static recording is better than no recording at all but not that exciting.  If you run multiple angles and nice static shot helps fill in gaps where the other cameras might miss something.
7. The closer you can get to the action the better.  If you sit way back and zoom in you will have more focus issues.  Better to get close and not have to zoom as much.  Of course this all depends on the place you're filming and the conditions you're in.  Get what you can.
8. Blockers help in any situation to protect you and your gear.  It's always better to have friends watching your back but if you're alone just do the best you can.
9. No way to know for sure unless you know the act/event from previous occasions.  For concerts when the house lights go down it is a fair assumption the music will start soon.
10. Get there early and scope out your surroundings.  Always have extra tapes and batteries.  If you use a tripod get a decent one with a fluid head.  This will make a HUGE difference when panning.  If you're running open and have a camera with manual controls it is best to set your white balance yourself instead of auto.  White balance is how the cmaera judges all other colors.  It needs to know what true white looks like and it can filter other colors correctly.  In auto mode the camera finds what it believes is white and makes judgements off that.  Most cheap cameras probably won't have manual controls though, or they'll only have a few.   

[Chaosu]

thanks, that was really helpful
i understand that miniDV recordings are downsized to dvd format anyway, right? couldn't find any info on recordings size...
i can provide pics of venue (from its official site) via pm if anyone wants, its going to be 100% stealth

not sure if i should ask artist (via myspace) if they allow, i may get a no answer, on the other hand i am afriad of getting caught (audio is much easier!) so maybe i should ask... i got center seat in front, may ask someone to change (what idiot would change for worse seats?)

thnks again, that was really helpful

ps. You americans are so lucky with open taping policies!

[stevetoney]

liamskelter, sorry for hijacking your thread but it looks perfect for my needs

i am going to attend a show in sitting venue and i know there will be two tapers, so i may go for video! great idea as band dont have any so far, yet its quite known (at least some of its members)

at first i thought about HP camera (photo) with video recording support, cheapest, easiest to use, with flash memory, but even i guess that MPEG-1 320x240 is no good...

I've seen some video's from cameras and they can be OK, but you aren't gonna get anything that's really worth much doing it this way.  Obviously, the resolution is not the greatest, but the biggest problem is that the video is balky and irregular.  Also, seems like you'd need a very large card to fit an entire show.

i don't have any video-camera and i dont have money for one but if im already trying, why not try to do it best? i saw some gnr fan, who recorded some shows and is trading only for miniDV masters (uncompressed), i usually don't have enought time to listen music, so im sure that after taping that show it will take few months (or few years) to get it done, so i wish my show would be interesting in a few years (opposed to outdated, if im not too clear), so here are my questions:

You could borrow a camera until you buy one for yourself.  If you don't have time to master a video, there are LOTS of people that would be interested in doing it for you...usually fans of the band that are mainly interested in getting a copy of the video.  By sending them a copy, your only requirement would be that they return you the original video tape and a DVD of the final product.

1. does it really (really really) looks better to tape in SP mode and get somthing missing than taping LP?

Whoever told you not to tape in LP mode is WRONG, in my opinion!  When recording in mini-DV format I always record in LP mode because you can record for 90 minutes instead of 60 minutes.  There isn't much difference in video quality between SP and LP on my video cameras (Sony DCR PC100)

2. and i heard LP mode is dangerous, not worth trying if i really want to tape the show?

Again, wrong.  Most concert recordists that talk to record in LP because then there is only one tape cut during the typical show instead of two.

3. what about HD quality, do i need it or not?

For concert recording, mini-DV format remains more popular than HD.  I can't tell you from personal experience because I've still not tried recording a concert in HD, but mini-DV provides plenty nice resolution for the purpose.

4. is tripod needed so much? laying camera on my knees isn't enough?

TRIPOD is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL!  If you want to make a video that will hold you interest, use a tripod.  If you want a souvenir that you FOR SURE WON'T EVER EVER EVER watch again, then hand hold or use your knee.  

Trust me, tripod is the more important than a quality camera, more important than ANYTHING.  I would't bother video taping without a tripod becuase the result won't be worth watching more than once...nor will you feel any sense of accomplishment or value in the recording that you'd want to trade it with anyone...and in that case what's the point???

5. do every videotaper look at screen whole time? isn't light from it too shiny (to get caught?)

I thought you said that the band you were taping were cool with video taping?  

Yes, video is nearly impossible to do secretly, so you should probably only video tape when you know that the band is OK with you taping them.  It is possible to video tape secretly, but it's NOT easy.  

If you MUST tape secretly, the only way to do it is in a large venue where you are in the middle of a row.  The best you can do is be creative in covering up the screen.  THE LAST thing you want to do is hold a video camera up to your eye.  You need the screen to be able to keep the camera out of the way.  I've folded the screen so that it's almost closed against the camera and the light can be shielded that way, but you can still see the screen well enough to ensure that your subject is centered.

6. static shot on stage, no zooms etc, boring or may be interesting?

BOOOORING!  Yawn.  

Again to me anyway, not worth bothering if you can't pan and zoom.  If you aren't able to get a good video with good dynamics, then the same logic applies, why bother.  In that case you're better off leaving the camera home and enjoying the performance because you'll never watch the video again.  What have you accomplished?

The exception to  this answer is if you know that someone else is also recording.  If there are maybe three cameras capturing a show from totally different angles and with different magnifications, then you can mix the three static sources afterwards and make a decent video.  It's still rather boring to my taste though if all three camera's never change position for 2 1/2 hours.

7. should i take seat in the back and corner or i may get a nice view for myself (my guess is no, camera will have too narrow 'look'

The closer you are, the more likely you are to get caught.  If that's no concern, my preference is that the closer the better.  To me, it's always more interesting to be closer, but maybe you don't share that same perspective.  

Question:  When you're watching a band without a camera in your hand, do you prefer being back and seeing the whole stage or do you prefer being close up and watching...that's your answer to your question.  Personally, I enjoy seeing video where I see he guitar players fingers on the fretboard.

8. audio taping may be 100% stealth, looks to me like i need kind persons on my left and right?

No, you just need someone with one stereo rig...that's all.  

However, if you're saying that audio is undercover, I'd be realy skeptical about whether or not you'll be getting a video tape that has much viewing interest.  My opinion.

9. how to know when to start recording

Not sure I understand your question.  I make sure that I have plenty of battery power and tapes.  I start video recording plenty of time before I know that the band is gonna come on stage.  That way I know I won't miss the first few notes.  There's no other way to make sure, unless you KNOW for 100% sure that someone will come out and do an introduction, but that rarely happens anymore.

10. if you managed to this question, any other tips?

TRIPOD!  

Also get a decent quality tripod...one with a decent fluid head.  Anything less than $100 isn't gonna be worthwhile because one with a decent fluid head is gonna cost at least that much.  The fluid head is the key because it eliminates herky jerky changes whenever you touch your camera.  

You can invest $10,000 in the best camera in the world, but if your technique and your tripod suck, you're gonna still have a crappy video.  Sooo, what I'm telling you is this...save your money and don't get an HD camera.  Get a good mini-DV camera and get a good tripod.  You'll enjoy the results.  Get a $10,000 camera without the other stuff, your results will stink.

As usual, my opinions.

[rastasean]

not sure if i should ask artist (via myspace) if they allow, i may get a no answer, on the other hand i am afriad of getting caught (audio is much easier!) so maybe i should ask... i got center seat in front, may ask someone to change (what idiot would change for worse seats?)

That's right: JUST ASK.

[rastasean]

[quote author=tonedeaf link=topic=110100.msg1507125#msg1507125 date=1225997409
You can invest $10,000 in the best camera in the world, but if your technique and your tripod suck, you're gonna still have a crappy video.  Sooo, what I'm telling you is this...save your money and don't get an HD camera.  Get a good mini-DV camera and get a good tripod.  You'll enjoy the results.  Get a $10,000 camera without the other stuff, your results will stink.
As usual, my opinions.
[/quote]

That's solid advice! Don't go to best buy or CVS to get a tripod from their, either. I wouldn't trust a one pound camera on any of those tripods. If you get a good tripod and take care of it, it will outlast you!

[Chaosu]

4. is tripod needed so much? laying camera on my knees isn't enough?

TRIPOD is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL!  If you want to make a video that will hold you interest, use a tripod.  If you want a souvenir that you FOR SURE WON'T EVER EVER EVER watch again, then hand hold or use your knee.  

Trust me, tripod is the more important than a quality camera, more important than ANYTHING.  I would't bother video taping without a tripod becuase the result won't be worth watching more than once...nor will you feel any sense of accomplishment or value in the recording that you'd want to trade it with anyone...and in that case what's the point???

This is going to be stealth... I saw a few dvds recorded from crowd, with heads taking 20% of screen and picture getting blurred everytime chorus starts... usually those big rock bands don't allow taping at all and yet there are many recordings which people trade for.

6. static shot on stage, no zooms etc, boring or may be interesting?

BOOOORING!  Yawn.  

Again to me anyway, not worth bothering if you can't pan and zoom.  If you aren't able to get a good video with good dynamics, then the same logic applies, why bother.  In that case you're better off leaving the camera home and enjoying the performance because you'll never watch the video again.  What have you accomplished?

The exception to  this answer is if you know that someone else is also recording.  If there are maybe three cameras capturing a show from totally different angles and with different magnifications, then you can mix the three static sources afterwards and make a decent video.  It's still rather boring to my taste though if all three camera's never change position for 2 1/2 hours.

I usually don't change my seat during a seated show... and when I get a dvd I always thing 'better than nothing, thanks'.

7. should i take seat in the back and corner or i may get a nice view for myself (my guess is no, camera will have too narrow 'look'

The closer you are, the more likely you are to get caught.  If that's no concern, my preference is that the closer the better.  To me, it's always more interesting to be closer, but maybe you don't share that same perspective.  

Question:  When you're watching a band without a camera in your hand, do you prefer being back and seeing the whole stage or do you prefer being close up and watching...that's your answer to your question.  Personally, I enjoy seeing video where I see he guitar players fingers on the fretboard.

Silly question, when I got no camera I got no zoom too.

8. audio taping may be 100% stealth, looks to me like i need kind persons on my left and right?

No, you just need someone with one stereo rig...that's all.  

However, if you're saying that audio is undercover, I'd be realy skeptical about whether or not you'll be getting a video tape that has much viewing interest.  My opinion.

I hope to someone would be interested. Before they announced a show in my country I wanted to see them so much! And there were like two vids on Youtube... sure their music is beautiful, but still...

10. if you managed to this question, any other tips?

TRIPOD!  

Also get a decent quality tripod...one with a decent fluid head.  Anything less than $100 isn't gonna be worthwhile because one with a decent fluid head is gonna cost at least that much.  The fluid head is the key because it eliminates herky jerky changes whenever you touch your camera.  

You can invest $10,000 in the best camera in the world, but if your technique and your tripod suck, you're gonna still have a crappy video.  Sooo, what I'm telling you is this...save your money and don't get an HD camera.  Get a good mini-DV camera and get a good tripod.  You'll enjoy the results.  Get a $10,000 camera without the other stuff, your results will stink.

As usual, my opinions.

[/quote]
So expensive! I wanted to buy-and-return the camera, noone to borrow from : /

not sure if i should ask artist (via myspace) if they allow, i may get a no answer, on the other hand i am afriad of getting caught (audio is much easier!) so maybe i should ask... i got center seat in front, may ask someone to change (what idiot would change for worse seats?)

That's right: JUST ASK.

And if I get no answer? I should respect... should I tell other tapers too? Probably yes, but then we won't have a recording! I know what should I do, but it's not so easy to face it. And it's notcool to ask, get a yes reply and then fail to record.

Before someone answers again (thanks for all answers, You guys are really helpful as always), it's going to be a stealth attempt in poor east european country!

I undearstand that I should feel what should I do or don't try to tape, don't worry, I am mentally there for a month already!