Topic: I need a camcorder, help me pick (PURCHASED), need more help!!!

[leehookem]

Got a baby on the way and my girl said we NEED a camcorder. I am in total agreement since I will get full use of this with the baby AND recording concert footage to go along with my audio. Here is the one I have my eye on:

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665291500

HD is a must as is a hard drive. Any other suggestions?

[pjdavep]

Got a baby on the way and my girl said we NEED a camcorder. I am in total agreement since I will get full use of this with the baby AND recording concert footage to go along with my audio. Here is the one I have my eye on:

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665291500

HD is a must as is a hard drive. Any other suggestions?

Congrats on the new little one!  My wife and I are in the same boat and we recently upgraded our standard def camcorder to the Canon HF10 -
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=16186#ModelDetailAct

We're very happy with it and I love the flash memory recording.   Although the capacity is nowhere near the 60GB in the Sony you linked, the two hour built in record time is more than sufficient and I figured that memory is getting cheaper and cheaper.  I have a couple 8GB cards from taping with my Edirol R-09, so if we go on vacation, I can bring those along for extra storage.  16GB cards can be had for around $25.  The best thing about flash vs hard drive is no moving parts in the flash and better power consumption.  Just something to think about...

Later,
  pjdavep

[stantheman1976]

Some will disagree with me on this but my advice is if you are filming important memories like your child growing up stick with tape.  Hard drives and recordable optical discs can and will go bad and you will be more prone to lose important footage.  The idea of redundant backups can be argued all day long but the fact that tapes have been around for a long time and proven themselves for long term storage makes the case for me.  I will stake any good reputation I have on my statement that if you shoot with a hard drive or DVD based camcorder today you will probably not have that footage in 10 years.  If you must have high def go with a Canon HV20/30.  They're good, small cameras that shoot HD footage to tape and are affordable on most budgets.

That's my $.02

[stevetoney]

^ It's all a function of how well you work with and back-up data.  Like it or not, I think the age of the magnetic tape is pretty close to becoming all but over.  You're probably right, the tape will still be around in ten years, but the problem is that there won't be anything to play it with.  As an example, if you haven't converted your DAT masters by now (many of which were made far less than 10 years ago) you're in trouble of missing the boat.  As time goes on, I would venture to say that we all will have more and more important data that we need to make sure that we secure...wehther it's our master audio or video, photos, medical records, financial records, etc.  I just think that home systems are gonna move more and more to weekly and daily backup systems just like currently exist on our work systems.  I'm in the process of putting together a rudimentary system where I manually backup right now, in fact.

[coloartist]

I would get the Canon HV30 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/539289-REG/Canon_2680B001_VIXIA_HV30_HDV_Camcorder.html

I have a xha1 which is basically the prosumer version of the HV30. I have seen great images from these cameras.

True that DV won't be around forever, but you end up putting it on a hard drive anyway. Then you have a tape and a data copy. My Panasonic hvx200 wrote everything to a harddrive or P2 card, so I had to always write everything to two hard drives fearing one would crash. I love having a tape backup.

[phanophish]

I just went through the same thing.  I wound up with a Canon HF-100.  For me the hard part of the decision wasn't the media format, as I pretty much believe it is not the most important decision.  I need to back up and archive the data regardless and the initial capture media is not really relevant to that discussion.  I like the idea of simply swapping out the SDHC card for more storage capacity, not being reliant on the capture device for playback or download and I really like the solid state nature of the media.  I can download and play back images without my Camcorder and I can capture video without having to clear off the only media (internal Hard drive)  I can capture to.  SDHC media is very cheap these days and a spinning hard drive is something mechanical that can & does fail.

For me the bigger decision was in the capture codec.  There are some real decisions with regard to workflow, quality and long term support when deciding between the AVCHD and MiniDV formats.  Ultimately I went with AVCHD since I had to upgrade my editing solution to support HD so making the jump to AVCHD seemed logical.

[sparkey]

but the fact that tapes have been around for a long time and proven themselves for long term storage makes the case for me.

I just moved and have been playing DAT tapes that are 10+ years old.  I repack them before I play them and they're just fine.  I wouldn't keep them in places where the environment gets extreme (hot attics, wet basements, etc), but I'd say they're ok for a bit.  Anything really important should also be backed up on DVD-R, IMO.

Josh

[rastasean]

I would never record video directly to hard drives. People here get worried with the JB3s, irivers, etc.
I don't see how a hard drive camcorder is a step FORWARD.

[sparkey]

Ipods seem to do okay...are those solid state?

I would never record video directly to hard drives. People here get worried with the JB3s, irivers, etc.
I don't see how a hard drive camcorder is a step FORWARD.

[leehookem]

thanks for getting the conversation going fellas.  I am a complete noob when it comes to video.  It makes since not to have a hard drive on a camera since I don't care to have one for my audio recorder.  For the most part, I think I have all but rules out Sony.  I don't really care to have to buy another form of media.  I already have 24 gigs of CF and 16 gigs of SDHC.

[rsimms3]

I have a Sanyo HD1000 and now there is the Sanyo HD1010 which is the 1080p version, both record to h.264 that can be dealt with in Yamb to a point.  It is a slightly oddball format outside of the MPEG2 format HD cameras.  It uses SDHC cards and is pretty easy to use I think.  Great thing is the pistol grip which sets is apart from other video cameras which might not be allowed in a show.  I once heard someone had issues with a hard drive based video camera shutting down to protect the hard drive due to vibrations from a very loud show.  I personally would go HD on DV film as it seems to be the easiest format to work with in terms of cutting, etc. for creating DVDs.   

[stantheman1976]

but the fact that tapes have been around for a long time and proven themselves for long term storage makes the case for me.

I just moved and have been playing DAT tapes that are 10+ years old.  I repack them before I play them and they're just fine.  I wouldn't keep them in places where the environment gets extreme (hot attics, wet basements, etc), but I'd say they're ok for a bit.  Anything really important should also be backed up on DVD-R, IMO.

Josh

I have a son who will be 3 in April and another boy due in late February.  I want to be able to watch my kids' first birthdays when they are 10.  I will never use a non tape camera.  I don't mind using iRivers and my Sony D50 for audio because I do back that up and nothing I record besides my home movies is critical to me.  Other stuff can get lost and I won't cry but if I were to lose footage of my son just after birth because a hard drive failed I'd be devastated.  Concerts are great to record and remember but nothing is ever as precious as those memories.

[pjdavep]

I think that within the next year, 8GB flash cards (1 hr of HD video) will be down to around 4 bucks.  That's almost the same price as a high quality miniDV tape.  With prices like that you could archive either the raw footage or edited footage on the flash card and just throw it in your safe (or safety deposit box) for archiving.  They are smaller and the data is safer than it is with magnetic tape, right?   It may be slightly cost prohibitive for a couple months, but that'll change.

One thing I love about the new flash camera I have is that the startup time, from powering up the camera to being able to record, is about 3 seconds.  The miniDV cam we used to have took about 15 seconds to be ready and we've missed countless cute things that our daughter was doing.

Later,
   pjdavep

[Liquid Drum]

I think that within the next year, 8GB flash cards (1 hr of HD video) will be down to around 4 bucks.  That's almost the same price as a high quality miniDV tape.  With prices like that you could archive either the raw footage or edited footage on the flash card and just throw it in your safe (or safety deposit box) for archiving.  They are smaller and the data is safer than it is with magnetic tape, right?   It may be slightly cost prohibitive for a couple months, but that'll change.

One thing I love about the new flash camera I have is that the startup time, from powering up the camera to being able to record, is about 3 seconds.  The miniDV cam we used to have took about 15 seconds to be ready and we've missed countless cute things that our daughter was doing.

Later,
   pjdavep

A possibility yes, but I always thought those SD/HDD cams record to compressed mpeg...?? Am I wrong?

[maidencolorado]

...I once heard someone had issues with a hard drive based video camera shutting down to protect the hard drive due to vibrations from a very loud show....   

I can personally relate to that, sucked in a BIG way too as I was filming a show on a tour of the US that was 5 shows long and was the first time the band had ever been to the states.  I switched to SDHC with the same cammie in a similar situation (as far as volume of the show) without a problem.

I like the lack of having to deal with a tape switch om the HDD cammies, but have now gone back to MiniDV.

[guitard]

A possibility yes, but I always thought those SD/HDD cams record to compressed mpeg...?? Am I wrong?

I used to be a major opponent of cams that record in compressed formats.  Actually, I still am.  But for stealth filming purposes, I recently bought a Sony HDR-TG1.  I figured a compressed video is better than no video.  I've shot several shows with it now and I am astounded at the video quality. Typically I shoot in SD at the highest quality level (9.1K) and that comes with 256 .ac3 audio.

If I shoot in HD mode, the audio is 5.1 448 .ac3.

[sparkey]

I saw a Best Buy ad once that had a camera with a little outboard weatherproof lens on the end of a cable several feet long.  I also knew  a pro videographer who had a DV cam like that...anyone seen things like that lately?

Josh

[guitard]

I saw a Best Buy ad once that had a camera with a little outboard weatherproof lens on the end of a cable several feet long.  I also knew  a pro videographer who had a DV cam like that...anyone seen things like that lately?

Josh

I've checked into these extensively and even bought a couple of them.  Problem is...you end up with a spider's nest of wires and it's really hard getting a good shot because typically you can't zoom in/out, you can't aim it very well, and you can't control the exposure.  The exposure is really a deal breaker because lighting at concerts is such that you have to be able to control the exposure with these spy cams to get a decent shot.

I've seen some really high-end models that don't require as many wires and probably can do a much better job, but they run into the thousands.

[beatkilla]

Forget about the hardrive cams do yourself a favor and buy the Sony HDR FX1000.Tape based,HDV,full manual control,superior low light....

[beatkilla]

Well as guitard says for stealth yes i can see using it.And guitard i would love to check out some of that footage.But for family events,weddings or permission granted concert shoots i say the sony fx1000 is the best choice for HDV the sony vx2100 for SD.

[rdfager]

I was just in the exact same boat.  My son was born a little over two weeks ago.  We had an old camera but wanted an HD camera that records to a HDD.  I did a bunch of research and ended up buying a Canon HG-20.  I've used it a hand full of times now and really like it so far.  The picture looks great on my 58" TV, the sound is pretty good and it's really easy to use.  I paid $550 for it from B&H with free 2nd day air shipping though it looks like they've marked it up to $599 now.

BTW, www.camcorderinfo.com has in-depth reivews on tons of models

[Low Spark]

I would get the Canon HV30 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/539289-REG/Canon_2680B001_VIXIA_HV30_HDV_Camcorder.html

I have a xha1 which is basically the prosumer version of the HV30. I have seen great images from these cameras.

True that DV won't be around forever, but you end up putting it on a hard drive anyway. Then you have a tape and a data copy. My Panasonic hvx200 wrote everything to a harddrive or P2 card, so I had to always write everything to two hard drives fearing one would crash. I love having a tape backup.

I agree with Bennett the HV30 will be my next cam. Its great for concert footage.

[rdfager]

I agree with Bennett the HV30 will be my next cam. Its great for concert footage.

For strictly shooting concert footage, I'd agree.  The HV30 does better in low light situations.  I'm not a big fan of linear media, and it doesn't sound like the OP is either.  That was the big reason I went with the HG20.  I don't need to spend money on tapes, don't have to deal with linear media and can quickly and easily back up my files to hard drive and DVD.

[BJ]

I would get the Canon HV30 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/539289-REG/Canon_2680B001_VIXIA_HV30_HDV_Camcorder.html

I have a xha1 which is basically the prosumer version of the HV30. I have seen great images from these cameras.

True that DV won't be around forever, but you end up putting it on a hard drive anyway. Then you have a tape and a data copy. My Panasonic hvx200 wrote everything to a harddrive or P2 card, so I had to always write everything to two hard drives fearing one would crash. I love having a tape backup.

is there a camera with the same quality/features but records to sdhc/sd/CF instead of mini-dv?

[edit]
after looking around, it looks like the vixia HF-10 is the camera, with the new HF-20 and HF-S10 coming out soon are the ones that would fit my question above. 
does anyone have experience with teh HF-10?  looking at the specs, can any of the video people say yay or nay on comparable features?  they look very close to me, but I admit i know nothing of video.

thanx

[BJ]

I would get the Canon HV30 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/539289-REG/Canon_2680B001_VIXIA_HV30_HDV_Camcorder.html

I have a xha1 which is basically the prosumer version of the HV30. I have seen great images from these cameras.

True that DV won't be around forever, but you end up putting it on a hard drive anyway. Then you have a tape and a data copy. My Panasonic hvx200 wrote everything to a harddrive or P2 card, so I had to always write everything to two hard drives fearing one would crash. I love having a tape backup.

is there a camera with the same quality/features but records to sdhc/sd/CF instead of mini-dv?

[edit]
after looking around, it looks like the vixia HF-10 is the camera, with the new HF-20 and HF-S10 coming out soon are the ones that would fit my question above. 
does anyone have experience with teh HF-10?  looking at the specs, can any of the video people say yay or nay on comparable features?  they look very close to me, but I admit i know nothing of video.

thanx

in a rather lengthy review on camcorderinfo.com, with TONS of test...  here is a snippit from the conclusion

We shot with the Canon HV20 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $903) in one hand and the HF10 in the other. In most instances, it was hard to tell the difference. The compression artifacting has gotten to the point where it looks no worse than HDV. In certain panning shots, the HV20 still keeps the upper hand in regards to sharpness, but on the whole the camcorders are matched. The HF10 has all the same great color performance as the other Canon HD camcorders, and now offers the highest resolution we’ve yet to see in a consumer camcorder. The low light performance tests higher for noise, but to the eye it looks as good, sometimes better than the HV20.

full review can be found here for anyone interested.  It also appears that a HF-S10 as well as HF-20 are both due out soon, which could drop the prices on teh hf-10.  also, ther is a HV40 due out soon, which should reduce prices on the HV30.

[Arni99]

A possibility yes, but I always thought those SD/HDD cams record to compressed mpeg...?? Am I wrong?

I used to be a major opponent of cams that record in compressed formats.  Actually, I still am.  But for stealth filming purposes, I recently bought a Sony HDR-TG1.  I figured a compressed video is better than no video.  I've shot several shows with it now and I am astounded at the video quality. Typically I shoot in SD at the highest quality level (9.1K) and that comes with 256 .ac3 audio.

If I shoot in HD mode, the audio is 5.1 448 .ac3.

Pressing "Display" lowers it´s brightness to almost zero which should be perfect for stealth video taping.
In addition battery-life(NP-FH50 Sony) increases to 106min with Display "off".

Without lots of zooming a complete show shouldn´t be a problem. Anyway I got another NP-FH50 as backup.
Will use it for my trip to L.A./San Diego and San Francisco in 1 week.
First concert-shooting with Mic-Sens set to LOW on the HDR-TG3(1) + iriver + DPA 4061 audio source will follow mid of February .
8GB memory stick holds 2h20min in 1440x1080i at 7MBit/s.

[guitard]

Pressing "Display" lowers its brightness to almost zero which should be perfect for stealth video taping.  In addition battery-life(NP-FH50 Sony) increases to 106min with Display "off."

If you lower the brightness of the screen to where you can't see it, how do you make accurate exposure adjustments?

[Arni99]

Pressing "Display" lowers its brightness to almost zero which should be perfect for stealth video taping.  In addition battery-life(NP-FH50 Sony) increases to 106min with Display "off."

If you lower the brightness of the screen to where you can't see it, how do you make accurate exposure adjustments?

I HOPE my pre-settings are ok  .

[guitard]

Pressing "Display" lowers its brightness to almost zero which should be perfect for stealth video taping.  In addition battery-life(NP-FH50 Sony) increases to 106min with Display "off."

If you lower the brightness of the screen to where you can't see it, how do you make accurate exposure adjustments?

I HOPE my pre-settings are ok  .

I film a lot of shows - and I always use manual exposure.  In order to get a nice shot you have to frequently adjust the exposure at most shows because of all the variables:  the lighting is different depending on what part of the stage you're filming; if one performer has light colored clothes and another has dark colored clothes - the exposure will be different for each of them (this is especially true when they are in the spotlight); the big screen will almost always require different exposure levels vs the stage; a zoomed in shot requires different exposure levels than a zoomed out shot - even if the lighting is the same, etc., etc.

Of course, auto-exposure can handle some of these situations - but auto-exposure settings are set to handle typical lighting situations - not the unique lighting you see at a concert.

There are ways to reduce the light signature of the LCD screen that still allow you to see it well enough to make adjustments to the exposure.  Stop by a window tinting shop and get a few scraps of window tint.  Cut one down to size so that it fits over your LCD screen and tape the edges of the tint to the outside edge of your LCD screen ~ works like a charm for me.

[Arni99]

Pressing "Display" lowers its brightness to almost zero which should be perfect for stealth video taping.  In addition battery-life(NP-FH50 Sony) increases to 106min with Display "off."

If you lower the brightness of the screen to where you can't see it, how do you make accurate exposure adjustments?

I HOPE my pre-settings are ok  .

I film a lot of shows - and I always use manual exposure.  In order to get a nice shot you have to frequently adjust the exposure at most shows because of all the variables:  the lighting is different depending on what part of the stage you're filming; if one performer has light colored clothes and another has dark colored clothes - the exposure will be different for each of them (this is especially true when they are in the spotlight); the big screen will almost always require different exposure levels vs the stage; a zoomed in shot requires different exposure levels than a zoomed out shot - even if the lighting is the same, etc., etc.

Of course, auto-exposure can handle some of these situations - but auto-exposure settings are set to handle typical lighting situations - not the unique lighting you see at a concert.

There are ways to reduce the light signature of the LCD screen that still allow you to see it well enough to make adjustments to the exposure.  Stop by a window tinting shop and get a few scraps of window tint.  Cut one down to size so that it fits over your LCD screen and tape the edges of the tint to the outside edge of your LCD screen ~ works like a charm for me.

Here in Europe you need to be 100% stealth or you run into troubles .
I rather use auto-exposure with a tripod than adjusting exposure every 5 minutes.
Of course for non-stealth-concerts manual adjustments make sense.

[leehookem]

Alright, well I received my camera yesterday from B&H.  I wound up with the Sony HDR-SR11.  I love this thing so far.  I got Sony Vegas Pro 8 and DVD Architect 5 for editing an authoring.  Is there a newbie site out there that has workflow or how-to information?

[skotdee]

I learned everything I know from searching the technobabble board on tradersden.org. Search "synch, render, vegas, architect, etc" Lotsa helpful folks over there. I've been doing concert dvd's for about 4 years now with Vegas & Architect, would be glad to offer any help... feel free to pm me with questions.

[leehookem]

I have a couple of sonogram DVDs that I would like to import into Vegas, but they are VOB files.  Anybody know of a program to convert to something that Vegas can read?

[guitard]

I have a couple of sonogram DVDs that I would like to import into Vegas, but they are VOB files.  Anybody know of a program to convert to something that Vegas can read?

You can probably pull the VOB files into Vegas and drop them on the timeline.  But they are already encoded.  You'd be encoding compressed files - which is not a good idea.

It depends on what you're trying to do - but if you just need to do some editing, you'd be much better off using an MPEG editor like Womble.

But first, you need to demux the mpeg from the DVD - I'd use DVD Decrypter for that.

[skotdee]

I don't think Vegas will import VOB files. As mentioned you will need to demux the files, ie: reverting back to the single audio and video files that were used to create the VOB files. I've only done this once, to re-author a disc with new audio, but when I did, vegas wouldn't import the demuxed mpeg-2 video file either. I've heard there's a plug in that will solve that problem but Im not sure...

[leehookem]

I figured it out with handbrake.  sooo easy.