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Author Topic: Good pictures without Flash  (Read 10050 times)

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Offline Frank in JC

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Re: Good pictures without Flash
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2008, 08:39:34 AM »
Glass for concerts/dark shooting, should be at f2.8 or lower if you want to get the best quality from the most available light.

Can someone describe what happens if you'd use something like a f4.0 in these situations?  I.E. no shadow detail, too much grain, whatever?

Thinking about beginning the DSLR trek when these stimulus checks come through and wondering just how cheaply I can jump in.

An aperture of f/4 allows exactly half as much light to reach the film/sensor as does f/2.8.  That means for a given exposure at f/2.8, the equivalent exposure at f/4 will require you to either double the shutter speed or double the ISO setting. 

For reference, the standard stops you'll see on 35mm lenses are f/1.4  f/2  f/2.8  f/4  f/5.6  f/8  f/11  f/16  f/22.  Each one lets in either half or twice as much light as its neighbor.  The number is actually a mathematical ratio between the focal length and the "entrance pupil."

I agree with all of Sunjan's points... except that I have found that 21st century consumer-grade lenses can be surprisingly good!  The manufacturers skimp on the body and mechanics, but the optics are designed by companies with many decades of experience and very good lens modeling software.  The optics of my Nikkor 17-55 f/2.8 produce amazing results (my favorite lens right now, it pretty much lives on the camera), but to say that their 18-70 f/3.5-4.5 is technically inferior is not exactly an insult! 

In my experience, the biggest drawback to consumer lenses with small maximum apertures is that they don't allow you to generate much background blur (bokeh), and the blur they do create isn't nearly as "pretty" as with fancy pro lenses.  The other drawback is that consumer lenses are outperformed in terms of contrast and saturation by pro lenses that use special high-quality glass elements in their construction.  But that's general photography.  You want to shoot concerts, too. 

Bottom line is that you can shoot a concert with a f/4 lens, but the faster your lens, the better your chances.  If you're just starting out, I'd recommend getting one of the kit zoom lens with the camera body and a dirt-cheap 50mm f/1.8 prime for low light concert shooting. 

[Edit, in response to stirinthesauce...
It's my philosophy that a kit lens allows an inexperienced photographer to start taking a variety of photographs on day one.  Concert photography is a tiny niche in the photographic world, and do you REALLY want to spend most of your time behind the lens taking photographs of men??  If you don't know what you're doing, it doesn't matter how fancy your lens is.  Only after you get some skills is better glass is a must-have.  Also, I would not recommend buying a used DSLR body.  I'd buy a used film camera in a heartbeat, but digital--no way.  Those sensors really DO get dusty and there's no telling how the previous owner dealt with the issue (the guy could have cleaned it with his shirt for all I know).  ]

« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 08:50:35 AM by Frank in JC »
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Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: Good pictures without Flash
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2008, 10:56:59 AM »
+T's y'all, thanks for the responses.

I'm looking at getting a used Rebel body, which I've been seeing between $2-300 at KEH.  My need is almost entirely for shows; I have a point/shoot that I'm fine with for other stuff right now.  I primarily tape in clubs, and in particular the 40 Watt which is a 450 capacity square box.  I do locals that don't draw anyone, in which case I can get close to the stage, but for bigger bands that do draw, I'll need to stay at my mic stand, usually in the middle of the room.  So I need to be able to zoom so I can get something usable from there.

Basically trying to decide the least expensive way to go on a first lens that'll meet those requirements.

stirinthesauce

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Re: Good pictures without Flash
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2008, 11:26:26 AM »
Frank, the above comment from sloan was why I suggested what I did, since he primarily wants a camera and lens for clubs.

Also, why not have a dual purpose lens instead of one that only works for daytime shooting?  Instead of a kit 18-55 f3.5-5.6, go for the equivalent or similar focal range in a f2.8 zoom and have one lens for both instead of still needing a 2nd lens for the low light situation.


Offline Frank in JC

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Re: Good pictures without Flash
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2008, 11:53:59 AM »
Frank, the above comment from sloan was why I suggested what I did, since he primarily wants a camera and lens for clubs.

Also, why not have a dual purpose lens instead of one that only works for daytime shooting?  Instead of a kit 18-55 f3.5-5.6, go for the equivalent or similar focal range in a f2.8 zoom and have one lens for both instead of still needing a 2nd lens for the low light situation.



The problem I see with cropped-sensor bodies is that you really need to be under 20mm to for wide-angle.  I agree with you, but an f/2.8 that goes that wide is bound to be expensive.
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stirinthesauce

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Re: Good pictures without Flash
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2008, 12:21:55 PM »
Frank, the above comment from sloan was why I suggested what I did, since he primarily wants a camera and lens for clubs.

Also, why not have a dual purpose lens instead of one that only works for daytime shooting?  Instead of a kit 18-55 f3.5-5.6, go for the equivalent or similar focal range in a f2.8 zoom and have one lens for both instead of still needing a 2nd lens for the low light situation.



The problem I see with cropped-sensor bodies is that you really need to be under 20mm to for wide-angle.  I agree with you, but an f/2.8 that goes that wide is bound to be expensive.

your absolutely right about not being a super wide.  However, the only time I use my super wide (12-24 ATX f4 Tokina) is for landscapes and then not always.  For everthing else I use my 24-70 f2.8 or my 70-200Lf2.8.  80% of the time, I only use my 24-70 as that focal range suits alot of my needs as well as landscapes.  Though I need it, and it is super sharp, my super wide doesn't get used nearly as much as it should.

Good discussion  :) 

Offline Frank in JC

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Re: Good pictures without Flash
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2008, 01:25:58 PM »
Frank, the above comment from sloan was why I suggested what I did, since he primarily wants a camera and lens for clubs.

Also, why not have a dual purpose lens instead of one that only works for daytime shooting?  Instead of a kit 18-55 f3.5-5.6, go for the equivalent or similar focal range in a f2.8 zoom and have one lens for both instead of still needing a 2nd lens for the low light situation.



The problem I see with cropped-sensor bodies is that you really need to be under 20mm to for wide-angle.  I agree with you, but an f/2.8 that goes that wide is bound to be expensive.

your absolutely right about not being a super wide.  However, the only time I use my super wide (12-24 ATX f4 Tokina) is for landscapes and then not always.  For everthing else I use my 24-70 f2.8 or my 70-200Lf2.8.  80% of the time, I only use my 24-70 as that focal range suits alot of my needs as well as landscapes.  Though I need it, and it is super sharp, my super wide doesn't get used nearly as much as it should.

Good discussion  :) 

Yeah, it all depends on your style(s) of shooting.  Personally, I'm crazy for the perspective of wide angle photography, and the ability to get really close to a subject while still including the background.  Plus, most of my shooting takes place in an urban environment where it's usually not possible to get further away. 
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stirinthesauce

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Re: Good pictures without Flash
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2008, 01:28:50 PM »
Plus, most of my shooting takes place in an urban environment where it's usually not possible to get further away. 

ahhhh haaaaaa!  Yeah, if I was living in an urban area (I'm rural), I would use my super wide as my walk around. 

Offline sunjan

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Re: Good pictures without Flash
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2008, 11:48:11 AM »
Glass for concerts/dark shooting, should be at f2.8 or lower if you want to get the best quality from the most available light.

Can someone describe what happens if you'd use something like a f4.0 in these situations?  I.E. no shadow detail, too much grain, whatever?


An aperture of f/4 allows exactly half as much light to reach the film/sensor as does f/2.8.  That means for a given exposure at f/2.8, the equivalent exposure at f/4 will require you to either double the shutter speed or double the ISO setting.

...or use your feet and get closer to the illuminated motive!
Each time I see folks at concerts standing 20 meters away from the stage using their zooms, I keep thinking "if they only bothered to walk a few meters, they would end up with much better results". OK, you don't want to get into the mosh pit, but for more relaxed gigs this is rarely a problem.

...but to say that their 18-70 f/3.5-4.5 is technically inferior is not exactly an insult! 

QFT, my avatar was taken with exactly that lense, at full aperture and standing on first row in front of the stage.
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Offline Frank in JC

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Re: Good pictures without Flash
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2008, 08:46:45 AM »
Plus, most of my shooting takes place in an urban environment where it's usually not possible to get further away. 

ahhhh haaaaaa!  Yeah, if I was living in an urban area (I'm rural), I would use my super wide as my walk around. 

Taken on my usual Saturday morning photo walk, this exactly where the wide angle lens in indispensable!  Urban for sure.  I had to hold the camera upside down and stick the lens under the fence. 






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stirinthesauce

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Re: Good pictures without Flash
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2008, 03:48:59 PM »
Very nice!  I can see the need for the superwide walk around. 

+t

Offline Frank in JC

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Re: Good pictures without Flash
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2008, 11:23:09 AM »
Here's another one I liked.  Wild Kingdom, Jersey style!

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Offline sunjan

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Re: Good pictures without Flash
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2008, 12:03:58 PM »

Taken on my usual Saturday morning photo walk, this exactly where the wide angle lens in indispensable!  Urban for sure.  I had to hold the camera upside down and stick the lens under the fence. 

Brilliant stuff, T+!
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Offline Frank in JC

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Re: Good pictures without Flash
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2008, 01:37:10 PM »

Taken on my usual Saturday morning photo walk, this exactly where the wide angle lens in indispensable!  Urban for sure.  I had to hold the camera upside down and stick the lens under the fence. 

Brilliant stuff, T+!
Did you bait these suckers? ;-9

/J

It was interesting... I was walking by an old high-rise housing project when I noticed about 10 empty food cans on the other side of a closed gate in an empty lot.  I didn't think much of it when suddenly a car pulled up on the sidewalk just in front of me.  The guy got out with a bunch of stuff and within seconds, little cats started coming out of the woodwork.  Normally they hide underneath a few abandoned cars in the lot, nowhere to be seen. 

He said there were a dozen in the litter a year ago when he started feeding them, but a few have met their demise in the road.  They get wet food, dry food, and milk every day.  Not too shabby!
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Re: Good pictures without Flash
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2008, 01:45:13 PM »
One trick - take LOTS of pictures...

If you take 250 shots - the ten good ones can make it seem like you know what you're doing....(even if you do!)

Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: Good pictures without Flash
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2008, 12:27:45 PM »
Here's another one I liked.  Wild Kingdom, Jersey style!


Those are amazing!  About how far were you from the cats in this one?

 

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