Topic: Which high-end cardioids?

[ianmacd]

Currently, I record everything I go to with DPA 4060 > MMA6000 > R-09HR. The omnis are fine for most of my purposes, because almost everything is a standing gig and I record with my head in the stack. Crowd noise and boominess aren't really issues.

This year, however, I've got a number of arena shows coming up. Some of those are assigned seating and I can't pick and choose my recording location. Omnis won't excel there, so this is the perfect time to purchase some high-end cardioids.

The obvious choice, given my experience with DPA and my dearth of experience with anything else high-end, is the 4021/2/3 range. I know the cabling differences between the three, but I'm still not sure which to pick. When might it be useful to have LEMO connectors, for example? And if I'm pinning these mics to my jacket, do I want a rear connector, or would a side connector make it easier to aim the mics?

To avoid the need for a new battery box to interface between the mics and the R-09HR, I'm also looking to invest in a new recorder. The Roland R-44 is an obvious choice, but rather large and stealth is of paramount importance here. Given that requirement, the pick of the bunch seems to be the Marantz PMD-661. If anyone has any strong feelings about that choice, pro or con, I'd be interested in hearing them, but maybe I should start a second thread for that. I mention it here, because the purchase is directly related to the mic purchase. If I do get the PMD-661, I'll probably order through Oade and get their concert mod. They don't ship to Europe, though, so I'd have to use a freight forwarder and risk being slapped with massive import duties when the package gets here. It's probably still worth doing, though, to get that mod. I sometimes record acoustic music, so maybe the Super mod would be applicable, too. Opinions?

None of these decisions is set in stone at the moment. I'd consider Schoeps instead of DPA if I thought there was a good reason, but I've heard that Schoeps mics tend to colour the sound, producing warmth, which I'm not sure I want, as I'm someone who favours transparency. I have no experience with Schoeps, though. I suppose the equivalent of the 4021/2/3 is the CCM 4. Is that right? I believe those contain amps and could thus be plugged straight into the PMD-661.

Lots of new ground for me to break here and some potentially very expensive mistakes to avoid. 

Any help navigating the minefield would be very much appreciated.

[H₂O]

There's also the CCM5 (cardiod/omni switchable) - on the Schoeps side you would want to look at the L version (Lemo connectors) - This provides a slight HF boost though so I don't know you want that.

Also there is the new DPA Compact series (i.e. ST4011C)

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=267&item=24428

Some other options as well is the Schoeps MK4/KCY and a PFA - which may be had inexpensively versus the CCM or possibly DPA 402x series.

[yousef]

I run both 4060s and 4022s and am over the moon with both. Not gone under the radar with the 4022s yet but it will come.

I think you might need to think about your mounting plan with the 402x - "pinning" is not something I would want to do to them. They wouldn't particularly lend themselves to this anyway.

One thing to consider is that if you're only going to be running these mics in non-open situations, the difference between them and AT-853s or CA14s might not be worth the huge extra outlay. There is a thread (started by Adrianf, I think) that covered much of this ground a couple of weeks ago that might be worth a read.

DOI: I think arena shows are of the devil. I wouldn't even go to one, let alone spend £2000+ on new gear to tape them...

[ianmacd]

Also there is the new DPA Compact series (i.e. ST4011C)

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=267&item=24428

Can those be plugged straight in or do they need a separate pre-amp? It's not clear from the page. If no amp is needed, then it's unclear to me what the major differences are between the 4011c and the 4021/2/3. I don't even know what the price difference is, because I'm having trouble locating an on-line European retailer.

Some other options as well is the Schoeps MK4/KCY and a PFA - which may be had inexpensively versus the CCM or possibly DPA 402x series.

More options... and I was trying to narrow it down.

[aaronji]

Also there is the new DPA Compact series (i.e. ST4011C)

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=267&item=24428

Can those be plugged straight in or do they need a separate pre-amp? It's not clear from the page. If no amp is needed, then it's unclear to me what the major differences are between the 4011c and the 4021/2/3. I don't even know what the price difference is, because I'm having trouble locating an on-line European retailer.

Both need a phantom power source, whether that's a recorder which does P48, a pre, or a phantom power supply (like the PS-2).  And it is on the page, under the specifications tab.

Some other options as well is the Schoeps MK4/KCY and a PFA - which may be had inexpensively versus the CCM or possibly DPA 402x series.

More options... and I was trying to narrow it down.

There are other options to consider as well, such as the various active set-ups and things like the P48 tinybox.

Personally, I would suggest poking around here a bit more and also listen to some samples to get an idea of which flavor you prefer.

DOI: I think arena shows are of the devil. I wouldn't even go to one, let alone spend £2000+ on new gear to tape them...

Especially with crappy seats...No matter how expensive your mics are, they aren't going to compensate for bad seats in an acoustically poor arena.  Better to trade up for some better tickets...

[page]

Arrggg... I need to type faster. 3 replies while I was sitting here diddling away...

F. me, a 4th. I'm hitting post to hell with it. 

To avoid the need for a new battery box to interface between the mics and the R-09HR, I'm also looking to invest in a new recorder. The Roland R-44 is an obvious choice, but rather large and stealth is of paramount importance here. Given that requirement, the pick of the bunch seems to be the Marantz PMD-661. If anyone has any strong feelings about that choice, pro or con, I'd be interested in hearing them, but maybe I should start a second thread for that. I mention it here, because the purchase is directly related to the mic purchase. If I do get the PMD-661, I'll probably order through Oade and get their concert mod. They don't ship to Europe, though, so I'd have to use a freight forwarder and risk being slapped with massive import duties when the package gets here. It's probably still worth doing, though, to get that mod. I sometimes record acoustic music, so maybe the Super mod would be applicable, too. Opinions?

An alternative to the 661 would be to look at a tinybox preamp, but you're in the same boat in that getting it to Europe will take some work. The reason I toss out the tinybox is depending on your arrangement and stealthing setup, you may find 2 small boxes (the tinybox and the edirol) to work better than 1 bigger box.

Also there is the new DPA Compact series (i.e. ST4011C)

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=267&item=24428

Can those be plugged straight in or do they need a separate pre-amp? It's not clear from the page. If no amp is needed, then it's unclear to me what the major differences are between the 4011c and the 4021/2/3. I don't even know what the price difference is, because I'm having trouble locating an on-line European retailer.

All of the referenced mics/setups so far (except for the kcy/mk4 one) need P48. The kcy/mk4 setup needs a specific set of adaptors to require P48 or a special preamp to power the caps without phantom power.

If you decide to go with the DPA 402x series, then you will likely be hunting around for "new" stock or buying used. DPA recently discontinued that line when they debuted the mmp-c bodies and changable capsule system which had a few improvements on the older design except if you're stealth taping as the bodies grew an inch. We can point you in the direction of finding a used pair of 402x, but thats something to keep in mind. Sonically, they are the same capsules. I've seen one vendor in the US who still lists the 402x series, and the cap/body combo of the new system is comparable, but slightly cheaper. Whether or not they have any is a different question.

Some other options as well is the Schoeps MK4/KCY and a PFA - which may be had inexpensively versus the CCM or possibly DPA 402x series.

More options... and I was trying to narrow it down.

and I have some more as well:

None of these decisions is set in stone at the moment. I'd consider Schoeps instead of DPA if I thought there was a good reason, but I've heard that Schoeps mics tend to colour the sound, producing warmth, which I'm not sure I want, as I'm someone who favours transparency. I have no experience with Schoeps, though. I suppose the equivalent of the 4021/2/3 is the CCM 4. Is that right? I believe those contain amps and could thus be plugged straight into the PMD-661.

Well, they do, but whether or not thats a good thing or a bad thing is largely dependant upon user preferences. Some here really like the color/signature sound, others don't.

But yes, the CCM4 and CCM4V are the schoeps small cardioids. If you do go that route and choose a tinybox, you may consider doing the mk capsule>kcy>tinybox which may be cheaper than the ccm line. Also, the Sennheiser 8040 cardioids can work if you remove the rear housing and build a cable that connects the capsule to a P48 provider. The rear housing on the 8040 is just to convert up to a full sized XLR.

would a side connector make it easier to aim the mics?

Speaking from experience and as yousef sort of notes, consider devising a new mounting method. It's not impossible to do what you're suggesting, but you're moving up to mics that are generally larger and more picky about how they are aimed. I found that when I was stealthing with cardioids, the restrictions your setup placed on me were not optimal. ymmv.

[ianmacd]

I think you might need to think about your mounting plan with the 402x - "pinning" is not something I would want to do to them. They wouldn't particularly lend themselves to this anyway.

When I said "pinning", I meant "clamping", but I'll assume your point still stands. What would you do to fix them in place, then, assuming a stealth situation?

One thing to consider is that if you're only going to be running these mics in non-open situations, the difference between them and AT-853s or CA14s might not be worth the huge extra outlay.

That will be the case some of the time. If I could't gain the benefit from them in a stealth situation, it wouldn't be worth it to me, since that's the majority of my work.

There is a thread (started by Adrianf, I think) that covered much of this ground a couple of weeks ago that might be worth a read.

Thank you. I will look for it.

DOI: I think arena shows are of the devil. I wouldn't even go to one, let alone spend £2000+ on new gear to tape them...

When I say "arena", I'm making a broad sweep. For example, I'd never go to a football stadium to see a gig, let alone record it. I'd rather miss whoever it is. I feel the same way about outdoor festivals, for the most part.

However, I'll very occasionally visit a large indoor arena, such as Amsterdam's Ziggo Dome. A little more frequently, I'll find myself in a large indoor theatre, such as an opera house or classical concert hall. I also have one gig later this year in an outdoor Roman amphitheatre. These are all events that I would imagine I'd use the new cardioids to record.

Most of my work is in small clubs, though, which is why the omnis have done me proud for so long.

[page]

I think you might need to think about your mounting plan with the 402x - "pinning" is not something I would want to do to them. They wouldn't particularly lend themselves to this anyway.

When I said "pinning", I meant "clamping", but I'll assume your point still stands. What would you do to fix them in place, then, assuming a stealth situation?

PM Sent.

[ianmacd]

Can those be plugged straight in or do they need a separate pre-amp? It's not clear from the page. If no amp is needed, then it's unclear to me what the major differences are between the 4011c and the 4021/2/3.

Both need a phantom power source, whether that's a recorder which does P48, a pre, or a phantom power supply (like the PS-2).  And it is on the page, under the specifications tab.

I actually saw that, but given my level of ignorance, it still didn't answer my question.

I wasn't sure whether having a P48 power source on its own was enough. From reading some manufacturers' documentation, I have been getting the impression that some mics need a separate amp and can't just be plugged into the P48 jacks of the recorder. From what you say, that appears to be a false assumption on my part.

However, that does now mean that I don't really understand the difference between the 4011c and the 402x range. I can read the descriptions and specs of both and see that they're not identical, but I don't know enough to translate the differences into thoughts that I can use to arrive at a purchasing decision.

There are other options to consider as well, such as the various active set-ups and things like the P48 tinybox.

Yes, although I want to avoid buying equipment from US-based boutique manufacturers if I can. In fact, I'd rather do all of my buying in Europe, except for the PMD-661 with Oade mod, obviously. The customs duties here are merciless and if I had to send anything back to the US for repairs and/or modification, I'd risk getting hit with fees multiple times. European warranties are often better, too.

[page]

Can those be plugged straight in or do they need a separate pre-amp? It's not clear from the page. If no amp is needed, then it's unclear to me what the major differences are between the 4011c and the 4021/2/3.

Both need a phantom power source, whether that's a recorder which does P48, a pre, or a phantom power supply (like the PS-2).  And it is on the page, under the specifications tab.

I actually saw that, but given my level of ignorance, it still didn't answer my question.

I wasn't sure whether having a P48 power source on its own was enough. From reading some manufacturers' documentation, I have been getting the impression that some mics need a separate amp and can't just be plugged into the P48 jacks of the recorder. From what you say, that appears to be a false assumption on my part.

However, that does now mean that I don't really understand the difference between the 4011c and the 402x range. I can read the descriptions and specs of both and see that they're not identical, but I don't know enough to translate the differences into thoughts that I can use to arrive at a purchasing decision.

The quick and dirty that I can think of is the new system has a longer unit than the older 402x units. This was done in an attempt to create a ballanced connection, improve the noise specs, and offer a removable capsule setup. In general; if your stealthing and worried about bigger mics, get the older ones, if you're not stealthing, then I personally don't see any reason to pick up the older units unless you are only getting one polar pattern and you get a great deal by buying used. My disclaimer being that I just baught the newer ones. 

[acidjack]

I run both 4060s and 4022s and am over the moon with both. Not gone under the radar with the 4022s yet but it will come.

I think you might need to think about your mounting plan with the 402x - "pinning" is not something I would want to do to them. They wouldn't particularly lend themselves to this anyway.

One thing to consider is that if you're only going to be running these mics in non-open situations, the difference between them and AT-853s or CA14s might not be worth the huge extra outlay. There is a thread (started by Adrianf, I think) that covered much of this ground a couple of weeks ago that might be worth a read.

DOI: I think arena shows are of the devil. I wouldn't even go to one, let alone spend £2000+ on new gear to tape them...

Not something you should or probably even can.

The 4021 is the absolute smallest because of the fixed RA cabling. That is what I used to have.  That cable entry can supposedly become fragile and break, though I never had an issue. The lemo version is more expensive, and also longer, but a more stable connector.

4021>v2 tinybox is a nice small rig.

With Schoeps you have tons of options.  The CCM series are beautiful little mics, but you pay a premium. The "cheaper" Schoeps solutions involve using either their CMR or KCY cables and running into something like a Naiant tinybox.

In your position, I'd consider some used 402x at the right price and a v2 tinybox.  That will set you back about $2300 depending what type of used prices you get.

With the Schoeps, depending how you go, the caps will be at least $1000 (used; MK4s matched are ~$1700 new), then depending on the cabling, another $600-900 (the KCY is $900, it's probably the best cable for stealth).  Then the tinybox for another $220.  Thus, whereas they weren't before, Schoeps and DPA can be pretty similar in price.

[yousef]

That will be the case some of the time. If I could't gain the benefit from them in a stealth situation, it wouldn't be worth it to me, since that's the majority of my work.

I'm sure page's PM will have filled you in re stealth mounting... As I type, I'm listening back to a rough mix of 4022s + board feed of a gig Stephen and me taped on Wednesday night and it is just lovely - if you do go for these mics and end up openly taping with them, I'm sure you're going to be happy.

When I say "arena", I'm making a broad sweep. For example, I'd never go to a football stadium to see a gig, let alone record it. I'd rather miss whoever it is. I feel the same way about outdoor festivals, for the most part.

I'm practically allergic to anything with over about 800 capacity but a nice theatre holding about 2000 and a decent set of cards - nice...

[Teen Age Riot]

MBHO caps would be another, less expensive possibility:

KA 200N (cardioid) or KA 500HN (hyper-cardioid) caps: ~500 euros
capsule attachments: ~300 euros
Naiant Tinybox (incl. cable, shipping and customs): ~280 euros

[aaronji]

The quick and dirty that I can think of is the new system has a longer unit than the older 402x units. This was done in an attempt to create a ballanced connection, improve the noise specs, and offer a removable capsule setup. In general; if your stealthing and worried about bigger mics, get the older ones, if you're not stealthing, then I personally don't see any reason to pick up the older units unless you are only getting one polar pattern and you get a great deal by buying used. My disclaimer being that I just baught the newer ones. 

I think the new ones are pretty stealth-able.  Not as small as the 402x, true, but manageable without too much additional trouble.  And with the added pluses of the switchable caps and more flexibility in terms of cables.  Like you said, if you want to have multiple polar patterns, it's much cheaper to buy a new pair of caps than a second pair of the old-style compacts (~ $1000 difference, if I recall correctly).

[aaronji]

Yes, although I want to avoid buying equipment from US-based boutique manufacturers if I can. In fact, I'd rather do all of my buying in Europe, except for the PMD-661 with Oade mod, obviously. The customs duties here are merciless and if I had to send anything back to the US for repairs and/or modification, I'd risk getting hit with fees multiple times. European warranties are often better, too.

Since the tinybox is so much cheaper than the Oade 661, you'll save money on the duties too. 

What always irritates me most about all those fees is the 19% BTW (value-added tax) on the shipping costs...