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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2  (Read 81584 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #195 on: October 25, 2018, 12:43:28 PM »
If you mean the forward-facing center mic, I point that towards wherever the cleanest direct sound is coming from, and if that's a hanging PA at an elevated angle, I point the front-center mic more upwards to focus on that to the exclusion of everything else.  That scenario can actually help reduce the pickup of the audience directly in front of the recording position in that channel.  And I basically want any rear-facing channel(s) pointed as far away from that as possible.  Again, the exception being that if that rear-facing microphone is going to pickup a strong reflection of the direct-sound of the back wall or whatever.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #196 on: October 25, 2018, 01:08:23 PM »
More and more I find it important to differentiate as much as possible the direct-front-arriving-sound from the diffuse sound which arrives from all directions essentially equally.  I increasingly see this as one of the more fundamental aspects which OMT exploits.  Even though the diffuse sound arrives from all directions equally, if we are to try to pick it up to the exclusion of the front-arriving direct-sound, we need to point the microphones further away from the front in order to skew the balance as far as possible toward the diffuse stuff.   Not because the diffuse sound is any stronger from that direction, but because the front-arriving direct sound is sufficiently less strong there. And that strong front-arriving direct-sound is not just coming from directly forward at 0-degrees, it is actually arriving from a pretty wide angle across the entire front quadrant.

The fundamental problem I see with upward facing microphones is that regardless of the microphone pattern used, they will simply pick up too much front direct-sound.  The sideways-facing supercards I use as my primary Left/Right channels have a loads of front-direct-sound in them.. much more than most folks realize.  They need to, because with surround playback they are directly feeding the Left and Right front speakers.  Similarly, just like my sideways facing L/R pair, an upward facing supercard would also be 90-degrees off-axis and pickup about the same amount of frontal-direct-sound.

Sure, direct-sound arriving from straight ahead is about 9dB down in a 90-degree off-axis supercard (which isn't really that much), yet the direct-sound from in front isn't arriving from just dead-ahead.  It is actually spread out across the front quadrant.  So what we should really consider is something more like the the average sensitivity across the front quadrant for any microphone facing 90-degrees off-axis.  Sound arriving 45 degrees off-axis to a supercard is only 2 dB down.  Even with an figure 8 the sound arriving from 45 degrees off-axis is only -3dB down.  A figure-8 has a nice deep null at 90-degrees off-axis, but it's simply not wide enough to be effective at this.

If you ever use a center Mid-Side pair in combination with a rear-facing cardioid or supercard channel, you can hear this for yourself by soloing just the Side channel, then the rear-facing cardioid channel, and comparing the two.  Listen to how much front-direct-sound is in the Side channel in comparison to the rear facing channel.

Because of that, I think any microphone intended to exclude the front direct sound as much as possible needs to be a supercardioid pointing at least 130 degrees away from the front, or a cardioid pointing even further away from the front.   And I feel this is just as important when the intent is mixing to 2-channel stereo as it is for surround.


Although I see getting sufficient direct/diffuse differentiation as most important, there are other less important things the rear-facing microphones can provide.
Picking up the direct-sound components of audience reaction and room reflections arriving from behind is very nice for both 2-channel and surround (more so for surround where it anchors things with discrete sounds from directions other than the front), but is a far second to getting good diffuse sound with minimal frontal-direct sound in it.  And many times there may not be much if any good direct audience reaction stuff or good room reflections back there anyway, depending on the venue and recording position.

So somewhat upward-facing when backwards-facing isn't practical.  Otherwise I see it as an unnecessary extravagance, even if one was actually recording for surround playback that includes overhead speaker channels, where I suspect it would be more fruitful to use ambience-extraction/decorrelation techniques to generate those extra channels from the existing surround channels.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #197 on: October 27, 2018, 03:27:49 PM »
Thanks for your posts about the microphones in vertical direction in OMT.  Thanks too for the photo analysis to determine spacings and angles of your rig at the Ween show. It will be useful and it is good to see it in real photo with all dimensions. I can imagine it better now.

Jose Gola is from Cuba (plays frequency with Gonzalo Rubalcaba).  He's an amazing player with monster tone.  The wide omnis really helped to capture his sound with an uncommon immensity, depth and envelopment.  Big shoes to fill as Jaco Pastorius was a South Florida native and he and Randy Bernsen grew up together here in Ft Lauderdale.

I didn't know that Jaco was a Florida native. I listened to a few music with Jose Gola on the internet. You are right, he is playing great. You have a good substitute for Jaco. I hope Jose is travelling often to Europe.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 03:40:28 PM by kuba e »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #198 on: October 28, 2018, 06:06:50 PM »
All those guys have immense talent.  Its a real privilege to be able to record them.

The Ween recording setup will sort of serve as a baseline for me as I begin to play around with the rear facing pair configuration.  I plan to do some testing of variations on the setup in our warehouse after hours, which is a large reverberant space.  I test by walking around the array at various distances, calling out the number of the clock and clicking a dog-clicker (a test I sometimes do while still setup after some events as other tapers at the Spirit of the Suwannee Music Park may recall).  In this more-casual controlled situation I'll probably also use other signals like carrying around a little speaker producing pink-noise, or dragging a piece of chain or scrap metal on the concrete floor, etc.  It's informative to listen to how that translates in terms of source-location imaging, the distribution of reverberation, and the general feel of the ambience.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 10:07:23 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #199 on: October 29, 2018, 05:44:32 PM »
All those guys have immense talent.  Its a real privilege to be able to record them.

I understand that very well. And the cherry on the cake is that you used the omt setup.

Offline noahbickart

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #200 on: October 29, 2018, 05:52:54 PM »
Is a recording with a m/s pair and a spaced omni pair OMT?

If so, check this out:

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?torrentId=602481

Phish
October 28, 2018
Allstate Arena; Rosemont, IL

Show Time: 7:30 pm
Doors Open: 6:00 pm

Location: FOB, DFC
Source 1: Schoeps mk3 [aka mk2xs] (A-B @ 50cm )> Nbob actives> Naiant PFA> Sound Devides Mixpre6 (Mic in Channels 1/2 @ 24bit, 48kHz)
+
Source 2: Schoeps mk21/mk8 (MS)> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA> Sound Devides Mixpre6 (Mic in Channels 3/4, onboard M/S Encode @ 24bit, 48kHz)

Transfer: Sound Devides Mixpre6> USB-C> Macbook Pro> Reaper (Mixing, DSP if applicable)> Sound Studio (Tracking & Fades)> izotope SRC & Dither (if applicable)> xAct (Flacing and Tags)

16bit file sets have DSP (dynamics and eq processing)
24bit file sets are normalized raw files only

Recorded and Transferred by Phishrabbi (noahbickart@gmail.com)

Set One:

Everything's Right
Destiny Unbound
Heavy Things
Miss You
Tube
Petrichor
I Always Wanted It This Way
Grind

Set Two:
Carini>
No Quarter>
Cities
Gotta Jibboo
Twist>
What's The Use?>
Twist
Shade
Plasma
Character Zero

E: Fluffhead
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline ycoop

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #201 on: October 29, 2018, 06:32:36 PM »
^yep. it has a diagram in Gutbucket’s OMT PDF.
Mics: Avantone CK-1s, AT853 c+o
Pres: CA9100
Recorders: DR-60d mkII, DR-2d

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #202 on: October 29, 2018, 10:23:33 PM »
Thanks Nick!  On the torrent now and I'll check it out when I get back from a trade show which is about to start. 

Yes, I think M/S between omnis makes for a quite attractively simple yet well-reasoned 4-channel OMT setup, combining directional coincident and spaced omni stereo techniques. with sharp imaging level-based stereo across the center plus lush, ambient time-of-arrival based stereo from the omis.  I'll be interested to hear this.  How do you like it compared to the near-spaced pairs you typically run? 

I also still need to give a serious listen the previous set of 3 pairs you made available which I grabbed but haven't had time to review yet.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #203 on: October 29, 2018, 10:29:52 PM »
Did you play around with the Mid/Side ratio of the center pair when dialing in the mix with the omnis?  If so what ratio did you end up gravitating towards?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #204 on: October 29, 2018, 10:42:38 PM »
Working late getting ready, and decided to listen to the Fluffhead encore before heading out the door.

Sounds really good to me Nick!  It has the OMT essence I like and aim for- clear center image with wide enveloping audience and ambient big-ness!  Sounds like I'm there, and has me smiling after a long, grueling day.  Thanks for that.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #205 on: October 30, 2018, 05:40:29 AM »
Noah, it sounds superb. Thanks for the recording and sharing it here. I'm also curious about what do you think about changing M/S ratio when mixing it with spaced omni.

Source 1: Schoeps mk3 [aka mk2xs] (A-B @ 50cm )> Nbob actives> Naiant PFA> Sound Devides Mixpre6 (Mic in Channels 1/2 @ 24bit, 48kHz)

I thought you had only inches and feets in States. That's good, next time I do not have to recalculate spacing, I will leave it in centimeters.

Edit: I just noticed that you recorded multiple sources and put all on bt.etree.org. So we all can play with the mix of M/S and omni. Many thanks for your big effort! Great opportunity for comparing individual configurations and microphones patterns of top quality mics as well as omt mix. That is very helpful. Maybe it would be worthwhile to keep it all together somewhere for others tapers. Please, what config did you setup for MK21 and MK22 source?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 08:39:09 AM by kuba e »

Offline noahbickart

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #206 on: October 30, 2018, 10:23:50 AM »
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline ycoop

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #207 on: October 30, 2018, 02:10:18 PM »
Working late getting ready, and decided to listen to the Fluffhead encore before heading out the door.

Sounds really good to me Nick!  It has the OMT essence I like and aim for- clear center image with wide enveloping audience and ambient big-ness!  Sounds like I'm there, and has me smiling after a long, grueling day.  Thanks for that.

I concur with Gutbucket. It sounds like I’m there. Solid listen on both my over-ears and earbuds.
Mics: Avantone CK-1s, AT853 c+o
Pres: CA9100
Recorders: DR-60d mkII, DR-2d

Offline heathen

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #208 on: October 30, 2018, 11:20:41 PM »
Nothing too wild here.  AT4031s at approximately 110* and 13" apart.  In the center are forward and backward facing AT853 subcards.  The forward-facing AT853 is either lined up with the AT4031s horizontally or slightly in front of them.  I used this for a show last weekend (Spafford and Cycles) but couldn't get a good photo at the venue so I set it up again at home.

I know what you're thinking.  "My god, the beauty of that old world craftsmanship on display in the AT853 mount."  That is a cardboard and gaffer tape concoction passed down through the generations.  Rycote, eat your heart out.

So far I've only processed the Cycles set.  For that one I left out the backward-facing AT853.  I may use it for the Spafford set...whenever I get around to processing that.  The Cycles set can be heard here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=188428.0
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 Pre: CA9200 Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline kingdong

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #209 on: November 07, 2018, 10:47:50 AM »
Maybe a little off topic, but I noticed a photo of "Professor Fellgett with his ambisonic equipment" on Ebay today and thought others might want to see it...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Professor-Fellgett-with-his-ambisonic-equipment-Vintage-photo/143001097985?hash=item214b879701:g:D7gAAOSwiJhbq-LR:rk:14:pf:0

 

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