Topic: Headphones for monitoring while taping

[rastasean]

my school of though is that we cannot effect the MIX of the PA speakers. Remember all we are doing is placing mics in an ideal place at the good height and recording. Our quality recordings greatly depend on the mix done by the engineer. This is an over simplification because mic placement and positioning (not to mention the actual mics) can make a huge difference but I can't imagine packing my headphones with me when recording though my 09hr and ca14 cards.

For those who always take headphones, what would you do if there was too much guitar or bass in the PA mix? What if the high EQ levels sucked or the lows? What if the vocals were low in comparison to the instruments? How would you fix this pre-post with your headphones while recoding? 

[danlynch]

I realize your last paragraph is largely rhetorical, but I think you'd understand a lot of what the headphone-carriers do with their phones if you'd, you know, actually read other people's posts.   Here's a hint.  We know we can't effect the room mix.

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So mic position and general "am I getting something of reasonable signal" aside, what else would you use it for?

Also, maybe I have an inflated sense of time committed to monitoring, but I'm just seeing a 2in check at the beginning (preferably soundcheck if possible) and then back to the performance as normal. Right?

[notlance]

I use the Sennheiser HD 280 headphones: very good isolation, fairly efficient, less than $100.  Good octave to octave balance, with perhaps a little too much bass, which helps me hear LF noise during the recording.  Then I can decide whether or not to use a HPF.

[danlynch]

Here's an example.  I'm running 4-tracks at the Bell House for Steve Wynn last June.  I'm recording the opening act to monitor the sound.  About halfway through the opener, the drums all of a sudden become overwhelming in the soundboard feed.  The levels look fine, but I can hear a very distinct brickwalling sound in the drums.  In between sets, I talk to the sound guy who tells me that he changed the drum input.  He changes it back and as a result, the Wynn recording is one of the best I made all year.  There's no way I would haver heard that without good headphones and it would have ruined the recording.

Here's another example.  I'm recording 4-tracks of the After The Jump Festival at Littlefield last August.  During the first song of The Suckers set, I hear this weird intermittant rattling sound in the board feed.  After a little investigation, it seems to be a problem with the mic'ing of the snare drum.  I talk to the sound guy who isolates it on his phones and sure enough its a loose cable on the snare drum microphone.  He fixes it on stage and all is fine.  No way I hear that without monitoring.

These are not isolated examples.  I can think of at least another half-dozen times (in Maxwell's and Glasslands in particular) where monitoring saved the day.

Obviously, headphones are not practical or even necessary for many tapers.  If you're a CA Card > R-09 press-record-and-pray kind of taper, headphones make little sense at all.   But given the variety of taping situations I find myself in every week, I find them absolutely indispensible.

[Gutbucket]

Lots of good points made here.  Different styles and different uses.  I don't typically monitor, but I do sometimes when I'm figuring out a new mic configuration or tweaking my setup for a specific venue.  You can never get enough isolation to really monitor critically, but you can get enough to check for problems or to make general setup decisions. When I do I use Etymoctic ER4 in-ears modified with the strongest isolating foam earplugs I can find to try and improve the isolation as much as possible.  I find their isolation is better than any 'circumaural' closed cans I've used, plus they are small and easily to carry, but a PITA to put in and out.  The closed Senn or Sony cans others mentioned are much easier to throw on for a quick check and so are much more likely to get used.  They can also be passed to a friend to share a listen.  It's fun to monitor another tapers rig at the show or to share yours with other tapers and interested bystanders.  Wordless smiles happen.  I always dig throwing on Gratefulphish's cans for a minute whenever I see him out at a gig.

The occasions in which the Ety's have been most useful for me is in making the effort and taking the time to dial in the mic position, A-B spacing and height of omnis at a couple outdoor amphitheaters by changing those things while listening.  The changes made by adjusting all three of those variables was significant and easy enough to hear even with the still significant bass bleed.  The variable that suprised me most was how significant varrying mic height can be- at one venue in particular the I found the 'sweet height' restricted to a pretty narrow region around a foot or two over head height- any higher was audibly inferior.  I certainly don't usually do all that very often though, usually falling back on what I've learned works in that venue or in a similar situation in the past.  Depends if I have the time, inclination, a throw-away source and the motivation.  Just wanted to point out that in addition to checking for problems it can be a suprising leaning tool, even if you know what your doing.. and a cool thing to share.

[gratefulphish]

my school of though is that we cannot effect the MIX of the PA speakers.

Well, technically both correct and incorrect.  The engineer is setting the levels, but they are, in fact, human beings, subject to error, and in many cases, can have certain sound issues brought to their attention, which they can then effect.  Roughly 99% of my recording is in small venues, either near or far. In the local venues, every sound guy knows me, knows what I do, and generally knows that I have a fairly good idea of what I am talking about, so they tend to listen and make adjustments.  I also tend to personally know many of the bands that I record, and frequently their traveling sound guys, and have no issue letting them know if something really sounds amiss.

Remember all we are doing is placing mics in an ideal place at the good height and recording. Our quality recordings greatly depend on the mix done by the engineer.

See above.  Even if you cannot or fear approaching the sound guy, you can effect your recording substantially by relocating or reorienting your mics, to deal with the sonic issues that you are encountering.

This is an over simplification because mic placement and positioning (not to mention the actual mics) can make a huge difference but I can't imagine packing my headphones with me when recording though my 09hr and ca14 cards.

Yes, and having the admitted luxury of a 722, with a headphone preamp that allows me to hear everything, along with excellent headphones in terms of both isolation and reproduction, as well as TLM-170s, with switchable polar patterns and bass roll-off, I can make significant changes to my recording, even without the cooperation of a sound guy.

For those who always take headphones, what would you do if there was too much guitar or bass in the PA mix?

See above, but in most small locations bass is rarely in the mix at all.  Too much guitar might lead me to a wider pattern, so that the PA sound was coming furhter off axis.
 

What if the high EQ levels sucked or the lows?

Again, see above, but EQ can usually be adequately addressed in post.
 

What if the vocals were low in comparison to the instruments?

Once again, see above, but otherwise, I might relocate or reorient my mics so that they are getting as much as possible from one or both PA stacks.
 

How would you fix this pre-post with your headphones while recoding?

I can't fix the lack of vocals in post, which is another classic demonstration of why I want to hear what's going into the deck, so that I don't go home, and find a bassy show, with weak vocals, and a really loud booming kick drum coming from the subs.  You can't recreate a lack of vocals after the fact, so you either need to say something, or do something, otherwise, you might as well turn off your gear, and just listen to the show.

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Here's an example.  I'm running 4-tracks at the Bell House for Steve Wynn last June.  I'm recording the opening act to monitor the sound.  About halfway through the opener, the drums all of a sudden become overwhelming in the soundboard feed.  The levels look fine, but I can hear a very distinct brickwalling sound in the drums.  In between sets, I talk to the sound guy who tells me that he changed the drum input.  He changes it back and as a result, the Wynn recording is one of the best I made all year.  There's no way I would haver heard that without good headphones and it would have ruined the recording.

Here's another example.  I'm recording 4-tracks of the After The Jump Festival at Littlefield last August.  During the first song of The Suckers set, I hear this weird intermittant rattling sound in the board feed.  After a little investigation, it seems to be a problem with the mic'ing of the snare drum.  I talk to the sound guy who isolates it on his phones and sure enough its a loose cable on the snare drum microphone.  He fixes it on stage and all is fine.  No way I hear that without monitoring.

These are not isolated examples.  I can think of at least another half-dozen times (in Maxwell's and Glasslands in particular) where monitoring saved the day.

Obviously, headphones are not practical or even necessary for many tapers.  If you're a CA Card > R-09 press-record-and-pray kind of taper, headphones make little sense at all.   But given the variety of taping situations I find myself in every week, I find them absolutely indispensible.

Ok, that makes more sense. Cool that you have responsive sound people and venues. Thanks.

[rastasean]

Thank you gratefulphish & danlynch for your personal, first hand experience.

You two make excellent points why and where headphone usage would be ideal. You have acquired excellent listening skills because of your attention to detail and ability to isolate certain parts of loud music. The ability to get a sbd patch and discuss important matters with the engineer are two great qualities. perhaps if I frequented smaller bars/clubs on slower nights to tape just whoever, I would have better luck doing this as well.

If you do not do a sbd patch and have headphones, I think it is equally important to listen with your headphones AND your ears to hear the sonic acoustics of the room. Obviously we know not to set up in the bad part of the room--with or without headphones from listening to how the music sounds throughout the club/bar.

it would be interesting to see if the average non-taper music goer could tell the difference of a live (live...not recorded live) set with a different eq mix and various incorrect microphone placements.

Excellent points for top notch tapers who show that they would rather get a great recording rather than attempt to fix it in post.

with all of this said, i wouldn't personally use my Sony MDR 7506 to monitor in a loud club because I don't feel like they would provide enough isolation.

how do the senn hd 280s fit? I like my entire ear to feel covered and it to be rather tight and not loose like the sonys. 

[DigitalIndigo]

I'll throw my hand into the "always monitor" camp as well.  I keep a pair of Etymotic ER-4's in my gear bag, and use them every time.  Several reasons:

1) As others have noted, it's great being able to hear what's being recorded and make adjustments on the fly.  Many times I have adjusted the position of my mics based on what I hear.  Sometimes it's subtle, but the difference is noticeable.  Also, it pays to have a feel for what noises you are picking up, whether it be air movement, hums or rattles, or crowd noise.  I've actually had to move my mics before to get a particularly chatty person off-axis to save a recording ( or at least make it better).

2) I record a lot of house concerts, which are off-mic, un-amplified affairs.  The dynamic range can be massive in these circumstances.  Being accustomed to my equipment, I can hear when it's getting too close to clipping and adjust accordingly.  It allows me to enjoy the show without having to obsess about levels, particularly when the problem might be just one song long.

3)  I find it's great to compare the recorded sound to the ambient sound.  If I hear a significant difference, I start figuring out the problem and looking for a solution.

4)  The Etymotics are basically earplugs, which allows you to adjust the sound to your preference and keep it lower than damaging levels.  When the house is really loud, I just turn the volume down on the Ety's and use them as plugs.

5)  Finally, having the headphones there allows for instant playback.  It's particularly helpful if you record an opener and think you have a problem.  You can listen right there and make any necessary adjustments.