Topic: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10

[Eliezer]

I am expecting a good technical description of mic overload on the Sony PCM-M10 portable from Church-Audio.  What where when and why.  Under what circumstances have you gotten it? What was the approximate dB of the sound source?  Etc.

[achalsey]

Why are you here?   

edit: post timed wrong with above post.

But seriously, why are you here defending internal mics on a hand held recorder demanding specs from people?  While many are guilty of this, I suggest Google.  It holds all the knowledge known to mankind and will tell you why and when the M10 will overload.

[Church-Audio]

I am expecting a good technical description of mic overload on the Sony PCM-M10 portable from Church-Audio.  What where when and why.  Under what circumstances have you gotten it? What was the approximate dB of the sound source?  Etc.

The max spl of the mics on the Sony are rated at 123db.. We dont know if that was A weighted or if it was at 1k or if it was at 100hz.. It could be they will handle high spl at high frequencies or not.. I simply cant answer the question with out testing the mics for my self. But I can say that most recorders internal mics will overload at high spl because of the plain and simple fact they are trying to get sensitive mics and make them do things that a sensitive mic cant do that is handle high SPL. something has to give

You want High spl mics you have to reduce sensitivity reducing sensitivity means more noise

You want less noise you have to increase sensitivity but you then risk overload.

I know more then a few mic companies that spec's a mic out at 138 db max spl only when I measured it there was more then 10% at 114db at 1k. So specs dont tell the whole story.. Do I know for a fact that the sony will overload.. No and especially considering he wants to record bluegrass it should not be an issue.. DO I think your going to get good stereo separation from two mics placed like that on a recorder HELL NO. But again why am I wasting my time explaining things to you? You already seem to know more then all of us right?

[Todd R]

OK Now you are starting to get nasty, rastasean.  And I don't need it.

From my standpoint, it was you who came in here first copping the attitude.  You come into a discussion board dedicated to the taping of live music, and proceed to tell people what is acceptable in terms of price/performance of gear, strongly imply that anyone who hears things differently than you and makes different gear choices than you is wrong, pretty much state flat out that with our hobby we can't possibly be enjoying the music we are recording, and then all but accuse us of taking money out of the pockets of musicians.

And then you wonder why your reception here isn't so good?

[Eliezer]

@ bluelawn

i could use your reasoning to ask why a artist would want to buy a expensive Martin guitar that costs thousands when a $60 chinese guitar will get the job done?

Depends on what job, n'est-ce pas?  To play outdoors for a Christmas "Welcome Santa" event, I would go with the Chinese guitar.  The same reason I played crappy toy plastic recorders at such events.

Maybe the proper comparison would be do I want a Rosewood D-28 or a Mahogany D-18.  And it would depend on what I was going to do with it.  Record or perform.  Or sit at home alone strumming.

Are you seriously comparing a stock Sony PCM-M10 to a $60 Chinese guitar, and are you claiming that an outboard mic and pre will transform a $60 Chinese guitar into a kilobuck Martin?  Why would you compare the PCM-M10 to a $30 Aiwa cassette?

You can do better than that.

You get the tool that does the job.  If the OP's M-10 can't do the job he wants done as he described it, than he will never be happy.

[12milluz]

@ bluelawn

i could use your reasoning to ask why a artist would want to buy a expensive Martin guitar that costs thousands when a $60 chinese guitar will get the job done?

Depends on what job, n'est-ce pas?  To play outdoors for a Christmas "Welcome Santa" event, I would go with the Chinese guitar.  The same reason I played crappy toy plastic recorders at such events.

Maybe the proper comparison would be do I want a Rosewood D-28 or a Mahogany D-18.  And it would depend on what I was going to do with it.  Record or perform.  Or sit at home alone strumming.

Are you seriously comparing a stock Sony PCM-M10 to a $60 Chinese guitar, and are you claiming that an outboard mic and pre will transform a $60 Chinese guitar into a kilobuck Martin?  Why would you compare the PCM-M10 to a $30 Aiwa cassette?

You can do better than that.

You get the tool that does the job.  If the OP's M-10 can't do the job he wants done as he described it, than he will never be happy.

How is that true? You get what you pay for. The internals may be ok, but you can definitely improve on the quality of the recording with external gear. You make it seem like an all-in-one device is either perfect for everything or terrible. It's good for sometimes, and not so good for others. That is why there is other equipment to make it useful in those other situations...

[Eliezer]

Honestly, achalsey, I'm not "defending" anything. 

I said that, in my opinion, the stock machine will do the job the OP wants to do.  Nothing more and nothing less.  If you don't agree, than calmly and simply explain why.  Maybe give some examples or some tech report.

And I am not "demanding" anything.  I expect that people who have already used this particular recorder might have something useful and important to say about its overload characteristics.  What with this being a site devoted to sharing information about recorders and such.

If you prefer to keep that information secret, then so be it.

When I need to be pointlessly insulted, I'm sure there are sites for that as well.

[12milluz]

Dude, no offense intended at all, but I don't think anyone is trying to pointlessly insult you. From your posts, you give off the idea that you rather care about the concert while you're there than recording it. That's cool, its great. But not everyone else is like that. You can't expect to come into a forum like this and express your opinion and expect everyone else to agree or be wrong.

[bluelawn]

i tried the internal mics on my M10, i would never use them if i had acess to a pre-amp & mics.
if the internal mics work for you, thats great. however i do see the M10 internals as the $60 guitar - will get the job done at a low price point.
do you really think you won't see a huge improvement using a high quality pre-amp & high quality microphones?
if can you not justify that price increase vs preformance increase so be it.
You don't even own this gear & your coming to a forum of people that do & have actual experiences with it.
but apparently you know better that the OP what he needs

please try having a little humillity or just go away

[Eliezer]

Honestly, I can't keep up with all the personal attacks. 

I replied to the OP based on my experience as a performer, folk festival sound director, and long-time user of portable equipment (78, Edison cylinder, cassette, Dolby cassette, DAT, R-R, MD, and digital flash) as well as expensive mics and mic pres recording classical chamber concerts.  And have even done a published cable comparison test in my day, too.  And have several field recordings in the Library of Congress (who commended me for certain technical innovations I created for field recording Southern Shape-Note choirs).

I offered my opinion that hundreds of dollars of outboard stuff would offer little improvement to the OP for the OP's stated purpose.

If you disagree, try to disagree with the opinion - not my "attitude", my alleged "demands" or all the rest of that rot.

Do try to help the poor OP.  I seem to be the only one addressing his question.

****************

You know something, Church-Audio?  I was so pleased that you had answered my question (in language we could all understand) that I copied it and saved it, in order to give it a good ponder.

I was about to post a "thank you" when I got to the last part: DO I think your going to get good stereo separation from two mics placed like that on a recorder HELL NO. But again why am I wasting my time explaining things to you? You already seem to know more then all of us right?

The first is a topic I never once brought up ... and neither has anyone else.  Stereo separation?  Really?

The second is just too sad for words.

So thank you for everything before that.  It was lucid, and helpful, and answered exactly what I asked.  As I know the decibel level of the things I will be recording (thanks to my trusty Radio Snack decibel meter), I know that the Sony will do just what I need it to do and not overload.  I will be ordering one tomorrow.

Hey, y'all - be sure to buy your fave's CDs, tip your waitress, and share your water at them there bluegrass festivals!

[achalsey]

This thread seems to have gotten hijacked.

The Google suggestion was the link to info, I'm not really trying to keep anything secret, just putting it out there that there is a way to do some homework on your own.

The OP is asking about a starter rig (and an M10 alone does is not a "rig") so to continue....

If you're still looking, I was in the same boat and this info really helped me:  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132722.msg1740241#msg1740241

I went with the CA 14 package for mics and pre (cards, omnis and 9100 preamp).  The M10 is a great recorder so you've already got a piece to the puzzle.  As a beginner myself I don't have a lot of answers, but Google and searching through here will give great answers to stands, mounts, cables and whatnot.  I suggest definitely digesting info from here, look around and don't be afraid to ask questions (even if they happen end up like this did) people here are great.  Happy taping!

[setboy]

It's just one folk musician's opinion, but if you are more concerned with squeezing out the last bit of frequency response instead of enjoying the music at a concert or festival, then you will have super recordings when you get home ... and less than super memories.

Just because you might not be able to make good/great recordings and have fun at the same time doesn't mean we are all like that. I enjoy music. I enjoy taping. I enjoy taping music. I can't figure out how putting up a set of mics, hitting record and checking levels every once in a while takes so much away from your enjoyment of the show.......i guess it could if you are one of those people that like to get completely trashed at shows, but people like that shouldn't be coming to shows anyways..................

[Church-Audio]

Honestly, I can't keep up with all the personal attacks. 

I replied to the OP based on my experience as a performer, folk festival sound director, and long-time user of portable equipment (78, Edison cylinder, cassette, Dolby cassette, DAT, R-R, MD, and digital flash) as well as expensive mics and mic pres recording classical chamber concerts.  And have even done a published cable comparison test in my day, too.  And have several field recordings in the Library of Congress (who commended me for certain technical innovations I created for field recording Southern Shape-Note choirs).

I offered my opinion that hundreds of dollars of outboard stuff would offer little improvement to the OP for the OP's stated purpose.

If you disagree, try to disagree with the opinion - not my "attitude", my alleged "demands" or all the rest of that rot.

Do try to help the poor OP.  I seem to be the only one addressing his question.

****************

You know something, Church-Audio?  I was so pleased that you had answered my question (in language we could all understand) that I copied it and saved it, in order to give it a good ponder.

I was about to post a "thank you" when I got to the last part: DO I think your going to get good stereo separation from two mics placed like that on a recorder HELL NO. But again why am I wasting my time explaining things to you? You already seem to know more then all of us right?

The first is a topic I never once brought up ... and neither has anyone else.  Stereo separation?  Really?

The second is just too sad for words.

So thank you for everything before that.  It was lucid, and helpful, and answered exactly what I asked.  As I know the decibel level of the things I will be recording (thanks to my trusty Radio Snack decibel meter), I know that the Sony will do just what I need it to do and not overload.  I will be ordering one tomorrow.

Hey, y'all - be sure to buy your fave's CDs, tip your waitress, and share your water at them there bluegrass festivals!

 I deleted some of my posts because who cares.... what I think I said what I said.. No need to get personal here.. I was having a bad day and posted some stupid pointless shit.. Man I dont know you from Adam.. I dont know what you know or dont know.. And I dont really care.. I stand behind what I said about the inputs of most recordings having issues with overload. Placement of mics in a sound field is everything to do with getting a great recording. That's just common sense why am I arguing? with it.

[Eliezer]

@ 12millluz  message 35

You get what you pay for. The internals may be ok, but you can definitely improve on the quality of the recording with external gear.

Sure you can.  But my point was that in my opinion the extra cost and extra lugging and extra worry wasn't worth the improvement at an outdoor folk or bluegrass festival where you are using a mic to record the PA speakers. 

And that all that extra stuff and worry tends to take away from the experience of being there.

If you disagree, just say so.  That's what chat rooms and forums are for.



You make it seem like an all-in-one device is either perfect for everything or terrible. 

I said no such thing or implied any such thing.  And you know it.

I offered a value judgment balancing spending hundreds of dollars more, versus the extra hassle, versus the improvement in quality when recording PA speakers at folk and bluegrass festivals.

If you think that in your experience the value tips in a different direction, then say so, by all means. 

That's what chat rooms and forums are for.

[Church-Audio]

Hmmm, deleted post.  Well, my Rat Shack meter is actually pretty good, within 1dB at 1kHz.  But I would expect they could vary as much as their capsules tend to, which like most small electrets is probably +/-2dB.  But the meter has a handy calibration screw to compensate for that.  I never had to bother with that though, it came from the factory that close.

Also, coincident stereo mic techniques do exist, and some people are even fans of them.  Of course I prefer split omnis myself . . .

 The problem with the rat shack meter is 1 the housing for the capsule 2 the capsule it self is NOT flat so any real measurements made with it are guesses.. The last one I had here to calibrate was off by 10db That was an unmolested meter from a theater that was using it to "police" DB limits... If you have a peek in your meters frequency response of 5 db at 2.5k due to the cheap plastic housing they put around the capsule. Then your meter is going to be off by 5 db at 2.5k.. Meters need to be FLAT to be inaccurate. Unless there is some DSP inside the meter I am not aware of to correct the frequency response the meter is hardly flat from 20hz to 20khz... More like + - 10 db from 200hz to 20khz. So if we were just measuring 1k it would be very useful for measuring db levels. FYI

these are some typical correction curves being posted on the internet not sure if they are 100% dead acurate but they seem to jive with some of my tests.

20k = 11.2
16k = 8.5
12.5k =6.2
10k = 4.4
8k = 3
6.3k =2
5k = 1.3
4k=0.8
3150 = 0.5
2500 = 0.3
2000 = 0.2
1600 = 0.1
1250-200 = flat
160 = 0.1
125 = 0.2
100 = 0.3
80 = 0.5
63 = 0.8
50 = 1.3
40 = 2
31.5 = 3
25 = 5
20 = 7.1