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Author Topic: Best shotgun configurations?  (Read 8264 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2012, 04:57:51 PM »
Beats a dry SBD  :P
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Offline spyder9

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2012, 08:18:28 PM »
I have AKG C568EB guns.  Just ran them two weeks ago at Alpine Valley for Phish.  PAS and straight out.  I have the vents pointed out, so I get better soundstage.

Offline DSatz

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2012, 11:52:24 PM »
"Shotgun" is a type of microphone construction, not a pickup pattern. In the midrange and the lower end, shotguns are just ordinary directional microphones, often supercardioid-ish (manufacturers often fail to distinguish accurately between super- and hypercardioid). Only in the high-frequency range does the pickup pattern of a shotgun mike get narrower, starting typically at 2 - 4 kHz depending on the interference tube's length.

But the interference tube principle is primitive and brute-force, so this narrowing occurs in a jagged, irregular way. Published polar diagrams generally have spot frequencies an octave apart, which barely begin to show the true extent of this irregularity. At any given off-axis angle of sound arrival, the high-frequency response of the microphone can be wildly different from, say, its response just 10° to 15° from that same angle. I'm talking response peaks and dips of 8 - 10 - 12 dB--and that distorted sound mixes in with your main pickup, and can never be separated back out again. The degree of this jaggedness is one of the big things that separates $3000 shotguns from $300 shotguns, but they all have some; it's inescapable, given how they work.

For this reason, when using a shotgun mike it is imperative that the desired program material be kept strictly on axis. It has to be close enough to the sound source, and pointed accurately enough, to keep any direct OR reflected program material within the "sweet spot" in front of the interference tube. Otherwise you get varying amounts and kinds of sound cancellation at high frequencies. Boom operators on film and video sets go to enormous effort and trouble to get this right. The interference tube damps the high frequencies of diffuse, environmental sound, but it can't increase the proportion of direct sound to reflected sound in a linear way. A shotgun mike is NOT suitable for use in a reverberant environment where reflections of the intended material will reach the sides, top, bottom and rear of the microphone to any appreciable extent.

All the formulas for figuring out a good geometry for a two-mike stereo pickup assume that the microphone's directional pattern is the same at all frequencies. And you can't set up a pair of microphones with one distance and angle for the low and mid frequencies, but a different distance and angle for the highs. For a pair of shotgun microphones, no one angle can possibly exist that would be right for the whole audio frequency range; whatever you choose will be wrong in an appreciable part of the range.

As a result, using a pair of shotgun microphones for stereo pickup in an enclosed space, where you're not pretty much right on top of the sound sources, is a fundamentally flawed approach. Your odds of getting a good-sounding recording would be much better if you used microphones with a more consistent directional pattern across the frequency range--even though the diffuse sound pickup at high frequencies would be greater that way.

Professional engineers can't always put mikes where we want, but even when we have to mike from farther away than we prefer, we don't generally make stereo recordings with a pair of shotgun microphones. We might put up some number of them, say, to cover specific parts of a theater stage--but that's spot miking; it's not the main/master stereo pair. The signals from those spot mikes are mixed in to some appropriate overall stereo pair on an "as needed" basis. As an alternative, please consider what DigiGal posted a few messages up from here--she knows whereof she speaks. If you have a shotgun mike whose sound quality you like, pair it up with a good figure-8 for a mid-side stereo recording.

--best regards

P.S.: To answer a question that was asked earlier in the thread: There are many shotgun microphones, including expensive models from famous manufacturers, that sound different (especially at high frequencies) depending on how they're rotated along their long axis. For such microphones the manufacturer's logo or trade mark should be treated as a "this side up" indicator. John Willett is right in an abstract, Platonic sense that this "shouldn't" make a difference, but do check--listen to your own voice from off to the side as you roll the mike around, and you may well find that the rotational angle makes a considerable difference to the pickup quality.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 01:33:19 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline acidjack

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2012, 11:13:58 AM »

NO professional engineer would ever make a stereo recording with a pair of coincident or closely-spaced shotgun microphones. They might put up some number of them to cover specific parts of a stage--but that's for spot miking, not the main/master stereo pair. (The signals from those spot mikes would be mixed in on an "as needed" basis to some appropriate overall stereo pair.) As an alternative, please consider what DigiGal posted a few messages up from here--I get the sense that she generally knows whereof she speaks. If you have a shotgun mike whose sound quality you like, pair it up with a good figure-8 for a mid-side stereo recording.

--best regards

P.S.: To answer a question that was asked earlier in the thread: There are many shotgun microphones, including expensive models from famous manufacturers, that sound different (especially at high frequencies) depending on how they're rotated along their long axis. For such microphones the manufacturer's logo or trade mark should be treated as a "this side up" indicator. John Willett is right in an abstract, Platonic sense that this "shouldn't" make a difference, but do check your own shotguns--just listen to your own voice from off to the side as you roll the mike around--and you may well find that it makes a considerable difference to the pickup quality.
Just for fun, I went and looked up the Schoeps CMIT 5U after reading your as-usual informative post.  I also realize that in the taping world, shotguns peaked in popularity with other manufacturers, in particular Nakamichi, who didn't make a hyper/supercardiod

The Schoeps MK41 is a supercardiod, of course, and it has a generally full and even frequency response across most of the range.  I note that Schoeps' own literature says its response in the midrange is similar to a short shotgun.

Would it be a fair statement that for the type of distance miking, usually in stereo pairs or in M/S configurations, that we are talking about here, that the MK41 is what Schoeps would consider a comparable (or superior) choice to some of the shotguns that people use for the same purpose? 
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
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Offline alpine85

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2012, 01:29:03 PM »
Thanks for all the input, guys.  Lots of good info here.

I have AKG C568EB guns.  Just ran them two weeks ago at Alpine Valley for Phish.  PAS and straight out.  I have the vents pointed out, so I get better soundstage.

Not sure what you mean by "straight out" exactly... you mean like parallel to the ground? What spacing did you use between caps?   

All the formulas for figuring out a useful geometry for a two-mike setup are based on the premise that the microphone's directionality is more or less constant across the frequency range--but violating that assumption is exactly what shotguns are all about.

NO professional engineer would ever make a stereo recording with a pair of coincident or closely-spaced shotgun microphones. They might put up some number of them to cover specific parts of a stage--but that's for spot miking, not the main/master stereo pair. (The signals from those spot mikes would be mixed in on an "as needed" basis to some appropriate overall stereo pair.) As an alternative, please consider what DigiGal posted a few messages up from here--I get the sense that she generally knows whereof she speaks. If you have a shotgun mike whose sound quality you like, pair it up with a good figure-8 for a mid-side stereo recording.

Wouldn't the center shotgun be almost the opposite of the PAS rationale for PA recording (the highly directional shotgun would be pointed to neither of the sound sources, and would pick up mostly indirect sound)?

I guess my reasoning for X/Y is that it seems like a "lowest common denominator" config... no spacing issues to complicate things, and since it has such a narrow polar pattern it makes sense to have the stereo information be directional rather than time-based. 

Especially since it will be mixed with the spaced omnis.  I listened to a few of the old GD shows made with the guns and the single omni - many of them were labeled "XY".  I thought most of them sounded really nice, but I'm thinking the split omnis might add some spaciousness that those were lacking. 

P.S.: To answer a question that was asked earlier in the thread: There are many shotgun microphones, including expensive models from famous manufacturers, that sound different (especially at high frequencies) depending on how they're rotated along their long axis. For such microphones the manufacturer's logo or trade mark should be treated as a "this side up" indicator. John Willett is right in an abstract, Platonic sense that this "shouldn't" make a difference, but do check your own shotguns--just listen to your own voice from off to the side as you roll the mike around--and you may well find that it makes a considerable difference to the pickup quality.


Thanks!  That's funny...  When I hooked up the gun caps for the first time, I noticed the logo on top and it just looked right.  (I can't remember which way the vent was facing though!).  But then I decided I wanted symmetry and pointed them outward like spyder9  ;D
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Offline alpine85

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2012, 11:58:10 PM »
Some samples from my first outing with the 'guns:

MP3 (256kbps 48/16):
https://rapidshare.com/files/116423155/sample1omni.mp3
https://rapidshare.com/files/608194378/sample2guns.mp3

WAV (48kHz, 16-bit) :
https://rapidshare.com/files/3707753242/sample1omni.wav
https://rapidshare.com/files/2950276050/sample2guns.wav

It's a 5-minute section of the Blues Traveler set, from the former Ford Amphitheater in  Tampa  (I refuse to call it "1-800-ASK-GARY", but I suppose I'll have to when I post to LMA... sigh).  As you can tell from the samples - especially the omnis - it's a big concrete and metal shed.  The omni source will need some bass rolloff, but I'm thinking a mix of maybe 2/3 shotguns and 1/3 omnis might sound decent. 

Would love to hear what you all think. 

Oh - sources are  CK-22>JW452>GAKcables>Oade R-44 and CK-8>JW460>Mogami cables>Oade R-44









MICS: AKG CK-1/CK-63/CK-8/CK-22 --> AKG 460/JW460/JW452
CABLES: GAKcables and Mogami
PRES: Apogee Mini-Me, SD USBPre-2, Busman UA-5
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Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2012, 10:47:02 AM »
I just had a situation over the weekend where a shotgun mic might have saved me. I was FOB but it was 100ft away albeit 20ft up on a platform. The 'din of the crowd' is almost equal to the band on my recording using Core Sound Cardioids. This festival is only once a year, all other times I tape this band I usually walk away with a really good FOB recording. So given the infrequency of use, I don't want to spend alot of money. But wouldn't mind something in the sub-$300 range.

What do people recommend for that distance and (hopefully) in that price range?

Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2012, 09:56:51 AM »
Wanted to give this a quick bump.

runonce

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2012, 12:04:10 PM »
Wanted to give this a quick bump.

when you're that far back - it becomes a very diffused sound field...I dont think a shotgun is going to be much better...possibly worse.

Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2012, 02:36:44 PM »

when you're that far back - it becomes a very diffused sound field...I dont think a shotgun is going to be much better...possibly worse.


Thanks. Why would this be worse? Is there a better alternative?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2012, 03:38:33 PM »
Diffuse basically means the sound level arriving from all directions is more or less the same, with no significant bias for any of the sound arriving directly from the source you are interested in before interacting with the rest of the environment.   Shotguns are designed to emphasize the sound arriving on-axis and usually have a much less well behaved response to sounds arriving off-axis than other directional mics.  If you are so far back that almost all of the arriving sound is diffuse, then the direct sound is minimal to start with and the problematic off-axis behaviour of the shotgun probably outweighs the benefits of it's higher directivity.

If you are up on a 20' high platform and the crowd noise is still too much compared to the level of the music, no particular microphone directivity is going to help improve that much.  The only good answer is to increase the ratio of music to crowd noise, usually by moving closer to the source, or by matrixing your recording made at that location with a sound board feed which would provide direct sound without crowd noise.   
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 03:42:07 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2012, 03:55:04 PM »
Ok, got it.

I had access to a SBD feed but didn't have the right connector.
So instead of trying to work a shotgun config, next year I will need to bring more connectors and maybe get a second machine closer with my standard mics.
Just be a little more work matrixing them in post

Anyone willing to give me some advise (offline, so as not to clog the thread) on trying to clean up my current file?



Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2012, 04:19:50 PM »
If you can get a SBD feed, that will make the effort of getting closer far less necessary, while allowing you to keep a couple benefits of recoring from the platform: the assumed ease and safety of recording from that location and a more diffuse crowd sound from 20' up, without the contribution of individual loud local yahoos close to the mics.  Of course I don't know all the details, and moving farther forward may still be a good idea.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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