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Author Topic: Is it Possible to run Neumann Caps with Schoeps Bodies  (Read 3144 times)

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Offline H₂O

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Is it Possible to run Neumann Caps with Schoeps Bodies
« on: October 08, 2008, 01:36:18 PM »
Been thinking about this for a while.   

Since it is possible to run Neumann and Schoeps caps with a Lemosax, in the same manner would it be possible to run Neumann Caps with Schoeps bodies (via a custom active cable)?

Anybody ever try this?

I know the capsule voltage would be inversed (+ vs -) so the signal may be phase inversed.

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Offline TNJazz

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Re: Is it Possible to run Neumann Caps with Schoeps Bodies
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2008, 02:11:35 PM »
Any particular reason you'd want to?

Anything is possible, but what would you gain by doing this?
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Offline muj

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Re: Is it Possible to run Neumann Caps with Schoeps Bodies
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2008, 02:21:30 PM »


Anything is possible, but what would you gain by doing this?

less mud >:D

Offline TNJazz

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Re: Is it Possible to run Neumann Caps with Schoeps Bodies
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2008, 03:26:43 PM »


Anything is possible, but what would you gain by doing this?

less mud >:D


You want less mud?  That's why God invented other microphones.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Is it Possible to run Neumann Caps with Schoeps Bodies
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2008, 08:59:44 PM »
H2O, you're dealing with two systems that are mutually exclusive in a fundamental way. Schoeps' system is based on active accessories (the FET circuitry is in the cable, gooseneck or extension tube) while Neumann's system is based on active capsules (the FET circuitry is built into the short, barrel-shaped adapter that's attached to the back of every capsule). Either way you run it, you've either got one FET stage too few or one too many--in addition to pins, threads and shells that are all incompatible.

Jörg Wuttke invented active accessories for condenser microphones while he was chief engineer at Schoeps, and he patented them along with Dr. Schoeps in November, 1973. The "Colette" system became quite successful throughout the world, and soon Neumann and other manufacturers wanted to introduce their own quasi-equivalents. But being honorable people, and (I would infer) having enough self-esteem as engineers that they didn't want to just imitate someone else's solution, Neumann went a different way in their KM 100 system, which was introduced in 1988.

The amplifier circuitry of both manufacturers is sonically transparent, however. There's no frequency contouring or "euphonic distortion" or other sound shaping in the circuitry; it's just an impedance converter (a current amplifier, basically). Thus there would be little to no chance of hearing any difference between them except under contrived circumstances--there might be a dB or two of difference at 20 or 25 Hz, for example. For normal recording applications I wouldn't expect there to be any humanly perceivable sonic difference at all.

But I do sympathize with the urge to do it anyway, just to hear it for yourself. I'll admit that I wanted for some time to graft the original KM 84 capsule head and reflector onto KM 100-series (or KM 180-series) amplifier bodies. It's all the more frustrating because Neumann actually made a batch of microphones that way at one point for a customer in Japan (the so-called "KM 184 A")--but they don't make or sell that version of the microphone any more.

--best regards
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 09:09:13 PM by DSatz »
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: Is it Possible to run Neumann Caps with Schoeps Bodies
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2008, 09:16:23 PM »
H2O, you're dealing with two systems that are mutually exclusive in a fundamental way. Schoeps' system is based on active accessories (the FET circuitry is in the cable, gooseneck or extension tube) while Neumann's system is based on active capsules (the FET circuitry is built into the short, barrel-shaped adapter that's attached to the back of every capsule). Either way you run it, you've either got one FET stage too few or one too many--in addition to pins, threads and shells that are all incompatible.

Jörg Wuttke invented active accessories for condenser microphones while he was chief engineer at Schoeps, and he patented them along with Dr. Schoeps in November, 1973. The "Colette" system became quite successful throughout the world, and soon Neumann and other manufacturers wanted to introduce their own quasi-equivalents. But being honorable people, and (I would infer) having enough self-esteem as engineers that they didn't want to just imitate someone else's solution, Neumann went a different way in their KM 100 system, which was introduced in 1988.

The amplifier circuitry of both manufacturers is sonically transparent, however. There's no frequency contouring or "euphonic distortion" or other sound shaping in the circuitry; it's just an impedance converter (a current amplifier, basically). Thus there would be little to no chance of hearing any difference between them except under contrived circumstances--there might be a dB or two of difference at 20 or 25 Hz, for example. For normal recording applications I wouldn't expect there to be any humanly perceivable sonic difference at all.

But I do sympathize with the urge to do it anyway, just to hear it for yourself. I'll admit that I wanted for some time to graft the original KM 84 capsule head and reflector onto KM 100-series (or KM 180-series) amplifier bodies. It's all the more frustrating because Neumann actually made a batch of microphones that way at one point for a customer in Japan (the so-called "KM 184 A")--but they don't make or sell that version of the microphone any more.

--best regards
It is interesting that Beyerdynamic produced the Scheops-like version in the 1970's.  I've got some of these: a ck7xx capsule, an av750 "collette", cable, then a cv750 phantom adapter.  I wonder if they paid royalities for this, or somehow claimed it was different.  Or maybe they got "shut down".  This setup if fairly rare, so that is possible.  Interesting bit of history anyways.

Oh yeah, can anyone say if the Rode NT6 work the same way?  My specific question is what is the external bias voltage on the capsule.  Do they boot it up to 50V or do they use the older design and just take off 30V or so, like the Studio Projects C4 and other 797 type mics.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline DSatz

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Re: Is it Possible to run Neumann Caps with Schoeps Bodies
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2008, 09:45:01 PM »
Richard, I believe your Beyers were introduced in 1985, not during the 1970s. From what I can see in the 1985 catalog there's an add-on impedance converter unit (AV 750) which attaches to the capsule, and then a cable (MVK 750) which runs from that to the CV 750N powering unit. So it's kind of like the Neumann system, except that the capsule doesn't come with the impedance converter bolted on.

None of the rights to Schoeps' patent for the Colette series were ever licensed to any other manufacturer to the best of my knowledge.

--best regards

(P.S.: On a threaded discussion board like this one, there's no need to repeat someone's post when you reply to them; everyone can see all the messages in the thread.)
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: Is it Possible to run Neumann Caps with Schoeps Bodies
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2008, 09:53:54 PM »
Richard, I believe your Beyers were introduced in 1985, not during the 1970s. From what I can see in the 1985 catalog there's an add-on impedance converter unit (AV 750) which attaches to the capsule, and then a cable (MVK 750) which runs from that to the CV 750N powering unit. So it's kind of like the Neumann system, except that the capsule doesn't come with the impedance converter bolted on.

I say this is "Scheops-like" because they share the same body, cable, and impedance converter.  Just like the Collette system, you can change capsules, eg., ck703=cardioid, ck706=mini shotgun.  Got them both :).

As for quoting, I like to quote the message so you can know which part of who's post I'm refering to.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline H₂O

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Re: Is it Possible to run Neumann Caps with Schoeps Bodies
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2008, 01:12:41 PM »
H2O, you're dealing with two systems that are mutually exclusive in a fundamental way. Schoeps' system is based on active accessories (the FET circuitry is in the cable, gooseneck or extension tube) while Neumann's system is based on active capsules (the FET circuitry is built into the short, barrel-shaped adapter that's attached to the back of every capsule). Either way you run it, you've either got one FET stage too few or one too many--in addition to pins, threads and shells that are all incompatible.

My thoughts where to add a Lemo connector to a Schoeps active cable and the opposite Lemo to a Neuman Active cable, matching up the pins.

I have heard of people running Neumann caps with a Lemosax (which is designed for Schoeps caps) so this is why I ask the question.
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Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Is it Possible to run Neumann Caps with Schoeps Bodies
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2008, 01:34:30 PM »
I too am interested in the differences between the Rode NT6 and the Studio Projects C4.  I have been using the C4 capsules on the rode nt6 with no problems.  I wonder if the design for both microphones is electronically similar.  If they are not I guess I am lucky that I have not damaged anything thus far....
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