Topic: SBD recording brickwalled?

[ashevillain]

I had this happen last night...weird. First time getting a SBD feed at this particular venue. Left the levels peaking about -6dB and it's just straight chopped off waveform. I'm assuming this had something to do with the SBD and not the recorder (R-44) since I've pulled SBD feeds successfully on those same 2 channels before. Listening to the AUD the PA doesn't sound brickwalled or distorted at all. Anyhow, I know it wasn't the same feed that was going to the PA. He assigned a specific stereo mix to those 2 specific channels just for my recording.

I don't think the FOH had ever given a SBD patch from that console before so maybe he did something wrong? Any insight?

[kirk97132]

I agree that your feed was probably pretty hot.   The other thing you may want to look at is making sure that the outer ring is turned all the way down on the R-44's level adjustments.  The R-44 can take a hot feed IF you set it up like that.  You may have just used the inner knob for adjustments like you have done with your mics.   

[ashevillain]

What you are saying sort of makes sense but I know in the past I've had hot SBD feeds (using different recorders) and it usually just turns out distorted not brickwalled. If what you are saying about the R-44 levels is true I don't think I would have got decent levels. I had both level knobs about 10 o'clock. I have no way of knowing but it just seems like if the outer one was all the way down the inner one would have to be cranked all the way up and it would still not be enough. Is that common to run that way?

[kirk97132]

Been a while since I owned my R-44 but IIRC I started out with outer knob all the way Counterclockwise and inner knob at 12 oclock.  If I had no level at all or very very low, barely reading turn outer ring up 1 click at a time till I got something half decent.  Then adjust inner as needed.  I think set up like that outer all the way down inner at mid point is unity on that deck.

[ashevillain]

Been a while since I owned my R-44 but IIRC I started out with outer knob all the way Counterclockwise and inner knob at 12 oclock.  If I had no level at all or very very low, barely reading turn outer ring up 1 click at a time till I got something half decent.  Then adjust inner as needed.  I think set up like that outer all the way down inner at mid point is unity on that deck.

That's what I did! I don't think you are understanding the issue here.

[kirk97132]

No I get it, all I was doing was speculating  possible R-44 setting since you didn't specify them.  As I said originally, I agreed that you had a hot feed.  without know what you had your deck set at I was looking to help you possibly eliminate one cause.  Another  thing...did your channel numbers on the left side of the screen ever reverse colors?  IE instead of white numbers on black did they go to Black numbers on white...indication of clipping the input stage of the R-44....if not then the issue was the fact you got a feed that was overloading the at the SBD before you ever got the signal. 

[ashevillain]

No I get it, all I was doing was speculating  possible R-44 setting since you didn't specify them.

I had both level knobs about 10 o'clock.

I did specify. I guess I could have had the outer at 9 o'clock and the inner cranked up but that would have the same net effect on the gain.

did your channel numbers on the left side of the screen ever reverse colors?  IE instead of white numbers on black did they go to Black numbers on white...indication of clipping the input stage of the R-44....if not then the issue was the fact you got a feed that was overloading the at the SBD before you ever got the signal. 

Yes. But I also noticed that last time I pulled a SBD feed at a different venue and there is no brickwalling on recording.

I guess (if I get a chance to do this again) I will have to ask to have the SBD signal turned down.

Thanks for the help!

[kirk97132]

IF the colors reversed them it is absolutely too hot of a signal.  That is why the meters were designed that way.   It is an indication that you are overloading the input stage of your deck.  If it is a monetary thing, then it is possible you might not have noticed it when listening especially if it happens on a drum hit.  I'd think if you were to find that exact spot and look at the wave form you would see it squared off at the top of the peak.  In the future if you see that happening and your recorder levels are all the way down then yes ask for the feed to be turned down if possible. 

[StuStu]

Sorry it happened, Cliff. Was this at Orgone?

[bhadella]

It's pretty unlikely that you got too hot of a signal coming into an R44.   I've pulled tons of soundboard signals from all kinds of boards and smokin' hot preamp signals and have never gotten the R44 to clip if the digital gain was set at 12:00 and the analog gain set to +4 dBu.  The clipping either occurred from receiving an already clipped signal due to SBD issues or the R44 operator creating the clipping.  A common mistake with a R44 is to have the inner ring (the one that is fully variable, digital gain) turned down (below 12:00) which will attenuate the signal but mislead the operator because the meters will show headroom but the actual analog signal (controlled by the outer ring which clicks) may be clipping.  The way to see the analog clipping is the channel colors flipping as kirkd pointed out.   

[ashevillain]

Sorry it happened, Cliff. Was this at Orgone?

Jeff Coffin & The Mu'tet last night.

It's pretty unlikely that you got too hot of a signal coming into an R44.   I've pulled tons of soundboard signals from all kinds of boards and smokin' hot preamp signals and have never gotten the R44 to clip if the digital gain was set at 12:00 and the analog gain set to +4 dBu.  The clipping either occurred from receiving an already clipped signal due to SBD issues or the R44 operator creating the clipping.  A common mistake with a R44 is to have the inner ring (the one that is fully variable, digital gain) turned down (below 12:00) which will attenuate the signal but mislead the operator because the meters will show headroom but the actual analog signal (controlled by the outer ring which clicks) may be clipping.  The way to see the analog clipping is the channel colors flipping as kirkd pointed out.   

Thanks for the info. I don't have the manual (borrowed R-44 from Gordon)...I'll have to find it online and read up on it. I doubt I'll have another chance to redeem myself anytime soon, unless George Porter is ok with me pulling a SBD feed next week.

[StuStu]

Here's the manual: http://www.roland.com/products/en/_support/om.cfm?ln=en&dsp=0&iCncd=4584


(I'm thinking about the Porter show too; let's discuss when you get a chance)

[ashevillain]

Everything is clearer after looking at the manual...Guess that should've done that to begin with!

Nice learning experience though...and at least I still have the AUD which sounds ok on it's own.

[SmokinJoe]

I don't know if this is possible with an R44, but when I first got my R4, I switched on the "Limiter" or whatever it's called.  I cranked the hell out of the gain, and the levels wouldn't get past -6.  When I listened afterward it sounded like crap, insanely compressed, could easily look like brickwalling.  Then I put gaf tape over the switch to make sure I never did that again.

[acidjack]

^^  That has generally been my (limited) experience with the limiter as well. It can work if you're not going over TOO hard, but it's not a cure-all.  I'm also not entirely sure it corrects for a too-hot signal, as much as just for overpeaking your levels.

[pseucky]

^^  That has generally been my (limited) experience with the limiter as well. It can work if you're not going over TOO hard, but it's not a cure-all.  I'm also not entirely sure it corrects for a too-hot signal, as much as just for overpeaking your levels.

[bonghitwillie]

i have not read any of the reponses but i will reply with my experience.  i currently use an r9 and an h2.  i have gotten alot of really hot feeds from rca and xlr outs.  i recommend get some variable pads.  -10 to -25.  someone makes one with dip switches so you can pad in increments of 1 or 2 db.  there are many kinds.  sometimes i ask the soundman to turn it down, but i hate to keep bothering them.  before the show, they give you recorded music and you set your levels and then once the show starts, it gets real loud and you turn down the volume until you are at 1.