Topic: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW

[su6oxone]

It would be interesting to see how the M10 and R-09HR compare in terms of noise floor. 

[dogmusic]

Thanks Dogmusic,
It is now confirmed.  Your machine exhibits the same noise floor as mine.  White noise hanging out around -76db.  Not a problem for tapers recording PA's I imagine but for anybody gathering quiet sounds it will be an issue unless they record with no headroom, any normalization will pull the noise floor right up.... My original microtrack is much quieter and I guess I will have to keep using it for when I want absolute fidelity.  Too bad...  Thanks again for running the test Dogmusic!

Would you clue me in as to how you measured the noise floor? I magnified the wave form down as close as possible and I couldn't see anything.

[darktrain]

I just got my unit and its official, this is a winner, perfect size and feels like its built like a brick, easy controls and with sonys reputation of producing small quality recording devices i am sure this will be no different if not better, looks like the Marantz PMD620 will be headed for backup unit duties now or sold and it is the only piece of gear i have continuosly owned for almost 2 years and if you  know me then you know thats no small feat(holding onto to gear for any length of time that is)

[chrise]

I magnified the wave form down as close as possible and I couldn't see anything.

That sounds odd.  Surely you'd expect to see some noise.  If there's really nothing there, it sounds like you've somehow got an empty file of zeros.

[illconditioned]

It would be interesting to see how the M10 and R-09HR compare in terms of noise floor.

OK, I just measured the noise floor, both the Edirol R09 and the Sony M10.  I put a 1.2k resistor to short the mic inputs, turned off plug in power, set mic gain to minimum (and low sens).  I got a reading of approx -76dB (peak).  It seems like the bottom three or four bits are noise.

This confirms my earlier suspicions that there is really no point in recording 24bit on these.  If you record 24bits, you're just getting an extra 8 bits of noise!

I've tried this on my other recorders too.  Has anyone actually got a lower noise floor?  How about so-called professional gear, like Apogee MiniME or Grace V3?

  Richard

[patchen]

Thanks Dogmusic,
It is now confirmed.  Your machine exhibits the same noise floor as mine.  White noise hanging out around -76db.  Not a problem for tapers recording PA's I imagine but for anybody gathering quiet sounds it will be an issue unless they record with no headroom, any normalization will pull the noise floor right up.... My original microtrack is much quieter and I guess I will have to keep using it for when I want absolute fidelity.  Too bad...  Thanks again for running the test Dogmusic!

Would you clue me in as to how you measured the noise floor? I magnified the wave form down as close as possible and I couldn't see anything.

With wavelab you can zoom in and see it, also the peak meters show it as well. If I boost the gain 12db I can hear it.

[patchen]

It would be interesting to see how the M10 and R-09HR compare in terms of noise floor.

OK, I just measured the noise floor, both the Edirol R09 and the Sony M10.  I put a 1.2k resistor to short the mic inputs, turned off plug in power, set mic gain to minimum (and low sens).  I got a reading of approx -76dB (peak).  It seems like the bottom three or four bits are noise.

This confirms my earlier suspicions that there is really no point in recording 24bit on these.  If you record 24bits, you're just getting an extra 8 bits of noise!

I've tried this on my other recorders too.  Has anyone actually got a lower noise floor?  How about so-called professional gear, like Apogee MiniME or Grace V3?

  Richard

Quite telling, it must be true that it is  resolving less than 24bits as this would explain the persistence of the noise floor even with the gain turned all the way down.  My original Microtrack1 fairs much better in this regard with a reading of about -86db peak.  10dbs is Pretty huge and I'm surprised at the difference here.  Looks like I'll still have to rely on that that buggy, annoying POS for critical recordings.  Damn...  Do you know if this is the same with the D-50 or any of the other mid price units?

[flintstone]

Some preamps exhibit the least noise with the volume turned up.
Can you try the same experiment with the resistor shorting the cable,
and the volume turned all the way up?

[NineEyes]

I'm surprised guysonic hasn't asked somebody to send him an M10 to bench test.  I'd pay $20 to see him compare the noise specs of the M10 to the D50.  Guy???  Are you out there?

[dogmusic]

This table shows relative noise specs for the mic inputs of a number of recorders.

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

I believe it has been mentioned elsewhere in this Forum but I forget where.

[bucsab12]

I am sorry about the noob question but I am not sure that I undersood the table in the link that Dogmusic specified.

Please correct me if I am wrong but from what I understood, the Olumpus LS-10 and LS-11 have the quietest mic inputs with the lowest floor noise (even better then the PCM-D50)?

Which of these recorders in the table has the best Line input? Is it specified in the table?

I will really appreciate it if someone could explain briefly what each column in the table means because I am lost...

Thank you very much in advance

[flintstone]

The Avisoft table talks about mic input only. The recorder that posted the best (that is, the least audible) results for mic preamp noise when volume is at maximum is the Sound Devices 722.  The Sony PCM-D50 has better results than the Olympus LS-10 or Edirol R-09HR.

These tests are mostly relevant to people who are recording very quiet subjects. (That's why the test volume is set to maximum).  In the environment where concert tapers record, the background noise level is high enough to mask the differences between most recorders.

[bucsab12]

Thank you flintstone for correcting me. I was looking at the "Dynamic Range at max gain" column instead of at the "Equivalent Input Noise (EIN) impedance: 150 ohms" column. Can you please tell me what does the "Dynamic Range at max gain" mean?

Thanks again

[Jamos]

The Sony PCM-D50 has better results than the Olympus LS-10 or Edirol R-09HR.

I was sort of counting on the new M10 to follow in the footsteps of the D50 in this regard.
Hopefully someone can do some definitive testing on it soon so we will all know.

[bucsab12]

I understand now that the chart only states the noise floor of each recorder when using the microphone input. So it really compares between the internal preamp of each recorder. Is that correct?

What about the line input? Is there any difference in noise between different recorders when using that socket or is it always the same because the signal it is not going through a preamp?