Topic: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)

[Unitmonster]

For the first time I'm sorta contemplating the idea of moving to 2 separate rigs.  Basically where I've been living for the last several years, you don't need to be stealthy to run stealth.  Security is non-existant at 99% of shows and bringing a bigger deck like the FR-2LE in to a non-taping show isn't an issue at all.

With my upcoming move to somewhere that probably has a different security ethic, I'm a bit worried, so I'm thinking of possibly moving into a 2-rig setup (say AT943 with 1/8" mod>R09HR + my current rig, maybe eventually upgrading my "open" mics). 

However, I feel the same way I do about photography in this situation. i've got a DSLR camera, and often think I'd like a little point and shoot for spontaneous or low profile photo situations.  Then I think "what if this makes me lazy and I just start relying on my little camera and settling for lower-quality photos?", or "what if I get somewhere with my little camera and wish I'd brought the SLR?". So then I never end up buying a small camera.

For those who run 2 rigs, what are your thoughts?  Do you sometimes regret running the small rig? Do you find that you have one collecting dust in the closet? Are you satisfied with the different qualities of recording you get depending on the situation?

Sorry for being vague, but I'm just trying to weigh out the pros and cons.

thanks!

oh, and one more related question:  do you feel like I'd notice a big sound difference between my current setup and the 943>plug-in power setup I mentioned above?

[nameloc01]

I'm kind of curious as to what makes you believe that just because a certain setup is geared more towards stealthing that it automatically is sub-quality when compared to something that is considered an "open rig" ? Many,many people run the same mics open and stealth, same with preamps, same with recorders. To make such vague assumptions is quite a shortcut to thinking.
I would also say that attaining a quality stealth recording takes a GREAT deal of effort,energy and concentration...and is far from being "lazy". If anything, running a stand, not having to hold one piece of gear and being free to sit down in a chair,talk  and drink a beer is more along the "lazy" line ( not that I,myself, think it is lazy)
Its all about location.

[nameloc01]

Lastly, if you're that worried about quality, then you should run those 943s the correct way, and that's not with "plug in" power.

[Will_S]

Obviously, to assume a uniform correlation between size and quality, or cost and quality for that matter, is not appropriate.  There will always be some exceptions.

That said, overall it will cost more to make something sound better.  It will cost more to make something smaller.  Ergo, for the same price, one can ON AVERAGE buy something that sounds better, if compromises did not also have to be made to make it smaller.

As to the 943s on plug in power, depending on the music you will be recording, and the voltage of plug in power provided, distortion from too-high SPLs may be a concern.

Personally I can hear a distinct jump in quality between AT853s*  and a Studio Projects LSD2.  Obviously, the At853s are handy due to their small size, and sometimes the LSD2 is just too big.  Sometimes I will run the AT853s openly right next to the LSD2.  Differences are always clearly audible, though not night and day, and I always prefer the LSD2.

So my suggestion to you...if you want the best quality, invest in better mics to run with the FR2LE instead.  If you discover you must run stealth with a smaller recorder, for about $10 you can get a 4.7K style mod (maybe talk to Chris Church for the best value resistor to use for your particular setup) done to your AT853s.  In theory you might get 1-2 dB extra noise.  You will not be able to hear that over the ambient/crowd room noise on a stealth recording.

*(regardless of how they are powered, I ran mine off a 3 wire battery box [which is identical, from the mics' perspective, to the phantom adapters you use] for a while and switched to 4.7K mod for convenience with no audible drop in quality)

edits for formatting

Edit 2:  As to laziness/point-and-shoot, I don't think I've ever suffered from that.  Certainly for a show I really care about, my best equipment always comes along.  But there are shows where I only bring the mini-rig.  Honestly, I think those are shows I wouldn't have bothered to tape otherwise, or I wasn't confident that I could bring open gear in, didn't want to do all the legwork to clear things in advance, etc.  But maybe I'm just in denial.

[nameloc01]

I'm not trying to turn this into an issue...but there are reasons the AT mics are manufactured with XLRs on them. SP takes them off and terminates them together in a mini plug, basically, because for moderate level shows (as they are told) they will "work" with one of the litle **inexpensive** battery boxes. When people hear this, it is the path they take. Simple as that.
You get the absolute max SPL handling ability with 3 wire/ phantom.
Not saying "modding" them isn't close, because it is. But it is- as everyone likes to play here- **technically** not exactly the same performance, its not ** technically** the best way. Even if "best" is a marginal amount.
The "convenience" arguement is relative. The entire issue is based on $...or rather saving it. Getting the same **exact** performance as "X" that may cost a few hundred bucks" for only...like you said $10.00.
Only problem is, its not *exactly* the same.
Lowering the mics sensitivity so they won't clip...maintaining the same level of noise (thus increasing it on the tape)..
Or running 3 wire/phantom..not lowering the sensitivity,maintaining the same noise level and not having to worry at all about clipping.

- not having $$ in the equation...
Which one would you choose??

[Will_S]

I'm not trying to turn this into an issue...but there are reasons the AT mics are manufactured with XLRs on them.

Yes, there are.  The main one being, so they can be run into the phantom powered XLR inputs typically used on the mixers in the churches where AT853s are typically installed for their intended use as choir mics.  We've been over this before.  AT853s are in no way designed from the ground up as a phantom powered condenser.

Edit:  But the point is, the OP will get the most improvement in his tapes by getting new open mics to run with the FR2LE.  I think we are in agreement here (although we may disagree on which mics offer an improvement, or how significant it is.  Different ears, different playback systems, ... only the OP's tastes really matter here.)  That's why I recommend new mics first (and new BETTER mics, not a downgrade to stealthier 943s), and then suggest that once the OP has better mics, he may be happy to modify his mics (at trivial sonic penalty) for ultrastealthy use with just an R09-sized recorder, or sure, run them into a 3 wire BB and then a stealthy recorder.  That's (using a 3 wire BB) just more expensive and less stealthy is all.

[nameloc01]

Actually,the main reason being they will clip at moderate to high SPLs when not powered correctly. You are correct about them being "choir" mics, that's why they are made with 25' cables initailly.
 If the 2 wire wasn't incorrect/inadequate to begin with....the "mod" would have never came to be. There would have been no reason for it to exist.
As far as the poster..he needs to get (mics) whatever sounds good to his ears, regardless of what "kind" of mic they are considered to be or how much they cost.

[Will_S]

Actually,the main reason being they will clip at moderate to high SPLs when not powered correctly.

Disagree.  The mics will handle exactly equal SPLs using a 3 wire BB or phantom adapters, as you say.  So why do they ship with phantom adapters rather than a 3 wire BB?  Because AT designed them, and came up with the default bundle, to suit church installations and not tapers.

[Church-Audio]

I'm not trying to turn this into an issue...but there are reasons the AT mics are manufactured with XLRs on them. SP takes them off and terminates them together in a mini plug, basically, because for moderate level shows (as they are told) they will "work" with one of the litle **inexpensive** battery boxes. When people hear this, it is the path they take. Simple as that.
You get the absolute max SPL handling ability with 3 wire/ phantom.
Not saying "modding" them isn't close, because it is. But it is- as everyone likes to play here- **technically** not exactly the same performance, its not ** technically** the best way. Even if "best" is a marginal amount.
The "convenience" arguement is relative. The entire issue is based on $...or rather saving it. Getting the same **exact** performance as "X" that may cost a few hundred bucks" for only...like you said $10.00.
Only problem is, its not *exactly* the same.
Lowering the mics sensitivity so they won't clip...maintaining the same level of noise (thus increasing it on the tape)..
Or running 3 wire/phantom..not lowering the sensitivity,maintaining the same noise level and not having to worry at all about clipping.

- not having $$ in the equation...
Which one would you choose??

LOL Yeah it is the same and actually the performance of my 4.7k mod is actually better then three wire for any of the AT mics that operate on three wire. And if you can prove me wrong please do so. Here is just another example of how "google knowledge" is dangerous and misleading. I have sold 1000's of microphones with my mod in it and never had a complaint about overload. Not to mention the 100's of AT customers that have my mod that also can say now that the mics they have dont overload as easy as they once did. And Um yeah running the mics three wire does drop the sensitivity by 12 db my mod only drops it by 10db But go ahead and tell me I am wrong. Any of these methods three wire or my mod will drop the output of the mic over plain old 2 wire. That is a fact not fiction. Man you really should try and learn a few things about what your talking about before you go misleading people with your "google knowledge"


Chris

[nameloc01]

Who ships what?

the adaptors transition the XLRs and step down the voltage.
They also can be used with the 3wire boxes, custom or ATs modules.

I've found the max SPLs are with the modules, but the better sound is with the phantom box...as do a lot of other people.

Both of these methods are superior over 2 wire...they just aren't as inexpensive.
That's all it comes down to.

If all three of these methods were the same price....which one do you think the majority of people would use?

[Church-Audio]

Actually,the main reason being they will clip at moderate to high SPLs when not powered correctly. You are correct about them being "choir" mics, that's why they are made with 25' cables initailly.
 If the 2 wire wasn't incorrect/inadequate to begin with....the "mod" would have never came to be. There would have been no reason for it to exist.
As far as the poster..he needs to get (mics) whatever sounds good to his ears, regardless of what "kind" of mic they are considered to be or how much they cost.

The main problem is that you listen to people that actually dont really know what they are talking about and never did. I am not going to name names lol..

[nameloc01]

I wouldn't expect any other response from you than *your* way is best. *Your* method is superior to ATs on their own mics and when someone asks advice on a BB you ,right off the bat start "pitching" your mod instead of addressing the original question of a power box. The constant plugs and fluffing are getting old.
There are many people who disagree with you, although most of them dont/wont post here because of the bullshit. I,myself, really don't care.

And again, I'd say the same thing to SP, the "mod" is a less costly * inferior* (even only by a little) alternative.
If it wasn't about the $, you wouldn't even be selling them. Same with SP.

$$$$$$$$$

[nameloc01]

Funny,...actually if I was to "listen" to other "people"...
I'd send my mics to you, have them termintated together (incorrect) and have them "modified" to work off of a power source they weren't meant to run off of to begin with. lol
That makes sense.
But its not about the sense, its about the $.
Remind me to call AT monday and tell them that they are doing things all wrong.
 

[Will_S]

OK, let's explore your line of thinking a bit more nameloc01.

Let's assume, just for the sake of argument, that there is actually some tiny sonic improvement to using 3 wire power, either directly or via the phantom adapter.  As I mentioned earlier, it's obvious that since these are choir mics marketed to churches using mixers with phantom power and XLR inputs, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to sell choir mics with phantom adapters than with 3 wire battery boxes.  We can all agree here, no?

Now, why doesn't AT offer their mics with a stereo miniplug wiring configuration, either with or without a 4.7k style mod.  You seem to think that AT designs and markets their mic with the sole goal of maximum sound quality (again let's just assume they sound better 3 wire).  Obviously this is not the case, the design of the AT853s reflects all kinds of compromises between sound quality, size, convenience, and cost - otherwise they'd be AT4041s!  

And why should AT even consider offering a miniplug terminated version?  Tapers are an insignificant niche market for them, not worth the effort and expense of developing a second product line.  Further, even if AT did start selling directly to tapers, that means they can no longer count on big orders from SoundProfessionals, who buy AT's mics to make their own.  So selling directly to tapers wouldn't just be a trivial increase in AT's total sales, it would gain them close to zero sales (of course a few people who shy away from rebranded stuff like SP sells might be willing to buy from AT for name recognition alone - still pretty trivial and not worth the costs of developing a new line).

[Will_S]

If all three of these methods were the same price....which one do you think the majority of people would use?

Errrr...can't speak for everyone, but I gave away my 3 wire BB for free so I could run the 4.7K mod and have one less box and one less connection.  No regrets whatsoever.