Topic: ALD Receiver

[Scooter123]

The last time I searched this topic, there was some awful blow back on pretending to be deaf and using one of these devices and taking away the possibility of a deaf guy using it.  Before you guys jump all over this, have any of you considered using a bought and paid for receiver, as opposed to a venue provided headset, like this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CJ8MGM/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER

to receive the ALD signals?  Portable and has 17 bands.  Cost is about $230. 

Ideas and comments? 

[willndmb]

2 thoughts - no knowledge
first would it get the same freq used by your venue
second does the venue broadcast the signal if no users are using their receiver - it seems like they wouldn't broadcast a signal if no one was on it

[nameloc01]

dont waste your money..they sound like shit..very flat, high treble..total junk. think about it..how good could the quality be...?? its geared towards the deaf.
good idea in theory, just not worth it at all.

[slightlys]

dont waste your money..they sound like shit..very flat, high treble..total junk. think about it..how good could the quality be...?? its geared towards the deaf.
good idea in theory, just not worth it at all.

Isn't that what post production is for. 
ALDs really do sound like crap.

[Belexes]

The deaf deserve better.

[datbrad]

My understanding is that the assisted listening devices are designed for those who have hearing loss, not total deafness.

People with the type of loss these devices are designed for have difficulty with hearing detail through ambient noise. They may wear hearing aids to help with this problem, for instance hearing table converstation in a noisy restaurant. The SPLs of concerts probably overload most hearing aids, so the ALDs are likely the best solution for these folks for live shows.

ALD devices, based on recordings from them I have heard over the years, seem to deliberately target the midrange and upper frequencies. I expect that with the heavy bass present in a concert, the ALD only needs to fill in the mid-range and higher end detail for the user. Probably works just fine in a concert, but take the feed alone and it's thin, nothing like a IEM feed, that is full range.

[kingdong]

I asked my wife about this as she is an audiologist.  She thought that you are going to typically get somewhere in the 250-6k Hz range with the typical ALD, but none of the higher harmonics.  This was an off-the-cuff answer from her, so there may be some ALD's out there that would have better frequency response.

[hi and lo]

I consider recording ALD and IEM broadcasts to be highly unethical and am never interested in recordings from these sources. I believe recording these broadcasts may also be criminal and covered under law in the US. Please consider the ethics of this practice when discussing on these forums.

[Tim]

ALD devices, based on recordings from them I have heard over the years, seem to deliberately target the midrange and upper frequencies. I expect that with the heavy bass present in a concert, the ALD only needs to fill in the mid-range and higher end detail for the user.

this has been my experience.

I asked my wife about this as she is an audiologist.  She thought that you are going to typically get somewhere in the 250-6k Hz range with the typical ALD, but none of the higher harmonics.  This was an off-the-cuff answer from her, so there may be some ALD's out there that would have better frequency response.

that seems reasonable, thanks for asking.

[nameloc01]

I consider recording ALD and IEM broadcasts to be highly unethical and am never interested in recordings from these sources. I believe recording these broadcasts may also be criminal and covered under law in the US. Please consider the ethics of this practice when discussing on these forums.

remind me never to tell you my glorious tales of bogus air-casts and ankle-wraps then...

[Scooter123]

I consider recording ALD and IEM broadcasts to be highly unethical and am never interested in recordings from these sources. I believe recording these broadcasts may also be criminal and covered under law in the US. Please consider the ethics of this practice when discussing on these forums.

Is there a civil law or criminal law that you know of, or have in mind, or is this statement a guess?  I'm not trying to be cute here, but honestly want to know. 

My thought is one puts these out over the public airwaves, and like police scanners, there is no legal prohibition from recording them.  But I haven't researched the matter. 

As for ethics, nothing is being stolen; and it may ethically wrong, just like any stealth recording (most forums make an announcement) so I consider it the moral equivalent of a stealth recording.  Ideas? 

[willndmb]

i heard iems are more of a legal issue vs ald because the iem is ment for personal (band/cordless phone) use where the ald is actually broadcast for others (like a radio)
but thats just what i was told, again i have no actual facts

[Depechemode1993]

Here's a thought:
If you're bootlegging a band's in ear monitor mix you are a CUNT. Recording a show from inside the venue is one thing - you're at least stealing something that is COMPLETE or meant to be PRESENTABLE, but tapping into an in-ear mix - something that is NOT to be presented to the world is the same as stealing a demo.
It sucks as an artist to have your work STOLEN by those such as yourselves that feel it's their right to do so, but this just plain fucking sucks and I assure you I will go to whatever lengths I can to shut you down.

obviously he is against IEM taping, but he is cool with audio and video taping.

[hi and lo]

Definitely not trying to be cute. I'm just a firm believer that recording these sources is not in the best interest of our hobby. I know everything is technically a grey area, but this topic seems to get quite a few artists quite infuriated and could even jeopardize open taping privileges. I beleve dmb once was known for hunting down audience members with IEM receivers and threatening legal action.

Is there a distinction between iems and ALDs ethically? I dunno.

[datbrad]

Definitely not trying to be cute. I'm just a firm believer that recording these sources is not in the best interest of our hobby. I know everything is technically a grey area, but this topic seems to get quite a few artists quite infuriated and could even jeopardize open taping privileges. I beleve dmb once was known for hunting down audience members with IEM receivers and threatening legal action.

Is there a distinction between iems and ALDs ethically? I dunno.

I agree that IEM sources are not ethical, but I am not as sure about the ALD feeds. There has never been a case I know of where someone getting and/or distributing such sources has met with a problem, unlike the well publicized IEM recording bans.

One thing I do know is that we are free to discuss the merits of ALD recording here, even if we don't practice it. I for one think that ALD sources are usually crappy and the audience recordings sound better. The best example I know of is when Phish played the Patriot Center in Fairfax, VA for the first time in the spring of '94. The ALD feed source from that show is typical of what you can get from that type of source, and my audience master from the OTS sounds much better to my ears. There is almost zero dynamic range in the ALD source, which is typical in my experience.

[acidjack]

ALD/IEM taping is crap.  Unethical, shitty sound... pretty much it's everything that makes bands not allow taping.  Legality aside, taping an ALD is not like recording an FM b'cast, because as Reznor points out, an FM, like the house mix, is meant to be heard (as is an ALD, but it is "reinforcement" not a final product). 

That $250 could go toward decent gear that could pull good AUDs.

I will admit that I've heard a few ALD/IEM + AUD mixes that were not bad, but I just don't like the practice.

To each his/her own though.

[Tim]

you know the FOH mix is also reinforcement, right?

[acidjack]

Yes, and in fact, that is also why I think recording the FOH mix in many cases is a poor move unless you can run multi-channel with AUD mics.

But that said, clearly an FOH mix is not the same as an ALD.  The ALD isn't even geared toward the full range of human hearing.  The FOH mix at least ostensibly is what is supposed to be heard in the audience by those of average hearing (plus whatever sound comes from onstage).

The obsession with ALDs, IEMs and SBDs is generally misplaced.  People who don't know anything about recording music love to say stuff like that a good recording sounds like a "soundboard," when in fact what they usually mean is that the recording sounds good.  An ideal live recording is almost always going to be a custom multitrack mix - NOT the FOH mix - plus AUD mics.  IMHO, nine times out of ten, simply plugging a deck into the SBD and hitting "record" is going to result in something that is mediocre to unusable.  Just like an ALD.

[Galen]

Having a little bit of interest about this issue my opinion is that people who tape shows via these methods engage in the same 'unethical(ness)' per se as unwarranted audio/video recording. Pretty simple. Unauthorized taping is unauthorized taping; probably 99% of all shows I attend/record do not allow audio recording.

The comparison someone made with saying how ALD/IEMs are why bands do not allow recording is not an argument; same thing bands say about audio/video recording and how it promotes selling of bootlegs which, really, does not happen all that much. Overwhelming of tapers would never sell their recordings. And, really, for the most part, anyone who torrents an ALD or IEM just makes it worse for everyone else.

Now would be a good time to make a note; ALD's tend to work within the very low MHZ range, for example a NADY 800 unit (ALD) is 72-76MHZ. The frequency is prone to distortion, tends to be tinny and has a very short range. An IEM unit is capable of ascertaining full stereo capability when done correctly and tends to work between 500ish to mid 600 MHZ. So there is a substantial quality difference, just to be clear.

And, no, they are not in fact illegal. Same as recording a concert with microphones; one would have to prove intent to profit in order to prosecute. The circumstances when tapers get busted is when they sell their recordings.

Also do not waste your money on an ALD receiver, there are so many better options I believe.

[kirk97132]

But that said, clearly an FOH mix is not the same as an ALD.     

Wrong.

A blanket statement like that is not even close to accurate.  As someone who has to use ALD systems at the venue I work at.  We do not give any "special" mix for them.  They get a straight up mix sent to the transmitter.  All the FOH guys I know do not do anything special at all for the ALD feeds.  This includes venues up to the size of the Rose Garden in Portland, OR.  It's just not worth trying to set up a seperate mix because you don't know who is using it and what there hearing problem is.  And, adding in ambient "noise" is not going to help the purpose of an ALD unit.  Great for recordings, not so great when you are trying to make things clearer for someone who is having trouble hearing.  They do not need to hear the rooms reflections of some asshat screaming in the front row.  The choke point on an ALD system is the transceiver set up. 

The reality is these are not for deaf people.  Deaf people cannot hear so what would the point be?  I have actually done a deaf concert once.  Everyone was issued balloons so that they could feel the music better, and in that instance we did run the low end a little hotter.   

ALD is for hearing impaired and the provide a louder sound so that they can understand speech easier(or hear the music better if you like).  The transmitter frequency and the actual receiver headphone set up is more likely to only provide a limited frequency response.   

[acidjack]

I think we are talking about two different things.

You are suggesting, I think, that an ALD is simply the FOH mix broadcast over a transmitter.  OK, fine. 

I am only pointing out that recording that mix, at least to make full-range, high-quality recordings, is a lame and pointless practice - JUST as recording the FOH mix, independently and without a custom feed from the engineer, usually is too.  That's not a knock on engineers or what they do - as everyone knows, they aren't mixing to make something that sounds nice listening at home on headphones.  They are making a mix that sounds good in that room at that time. Recording that mix may produce a 'soundboard' (which I guess bootleg CD companies instilled years ago as being a desirable thing in and of itself) but it doesn't make a very good recording.  I'm sure an ALD is very good at doing what it is supposed to do... it's just not something I would record and serve up later as some "great recording" in most instances...

[Sunday Driver]

An IEM unit is capable of ascertaining full stereo capability when done correctly and tends to work between 500ish to mid 600 MHZ. So there is a substantial quality difference, just to be clear.

IEM signals are not really "full stereo". They're multiplexed FM transmissions with a pilot tone. The receiver receives a mix of both L/R channels together and adds or subtracts (decodes) a separate L/R signal. Not really full stereo, where you have completely different separate left and right channels.

Also, the bandwidth for these transmissions can be anywhere from about 500-850 Mhz, minus the 700 Mhz range as of June due to rebanding. (Sennheiser released the G3 IEM series to be FCC compliant.)

[taperanonymous]

I know this is an old topic but I wanted to respond to "depechemode1993" and being called a "cunt". I have been taping from IEM's for 20 years and have about 300 uncirculated feeds - some matrixes with multiple preformer feeds, tech feeds, ALD's, and even some suction cup transducer feeds from being stuck on the PA.

In my opinion an ALD has the best sound if you are at a good venue and the band actually plugs in. For reference, Pearl Jam's Hartford 1996 "soundboard" is actually an ALD and it so good even the biggest tapers in the word refer to this as a perfect soundboard. This leaked from my collection along with the two perfect Depeche Mode 1998 LA shows.

Now Mr. depechemode1993 - can I guess what band you collect? I bet you would like my Delta Center Depeche Mode 1993 or my Depeche Mode Las Vegas Aladin 1994. What about all the nights at the LA Forum 1993? What about my Nine Inch Nails New Orleans lake Front Arena 1995?? ALL OF THE PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED SHOWS ARE PERFECT ALD'S WITH NO INTERFERENCE AND ARE EXCELENT BOARD FEEDS Hey depechemode1993 (dick) guess what shows will never see the light of day and you will never have/hear?   

Here's a thought:
If you're bootlegging a band's in ear monitor mix you are a CUNT. Recording a show from inside the venue is one thing - you're at least stealing something that is COMPLETE or meant to be PRESENTABLE, but tapping into an in-ear mix - something that is NOT to be presented to the world is the same as stealing a demo.
It sucks as an artist to have your work STOLEN by those such as yourselves that feel it's their right to do so, but this just plain fucking sucks and I assure you I will go to whatever lengths I can to shut you down.

obviously he is against IEM taping, but he is cool with audio and video taping.

[Brian Skalinder]

Taperanonymous -- FWIW, the name-calling was from another user (now gone) whom depechemode1993 quoted.  And depechemode1993, too, is also no longer on TS.

[acidjack]

I know this is an old topic but I wanted to respond to "depechemode1993" and being called a "cunt". I have been taping from IEM's for 20 years and have about 300 uncirculated feeds - some matrixes with multiple preformer feeds, tech feeds, ALD's, and even some suction cup transducer feeds from being stuck on the PA.

In my opinion an ALD has the best sound if you are at a good venue and the band actually plugs in. For reference, Pearl Jam's Hartford 1996 "soundboard" is actually an ALD and it so good even the biggest tapers in the word refer to this as a perfect soundboard. This leaked from my collection along with the two perfect Depeche Mode 1998 LA shows.

Now Mr. depechemode1993 - can I guess what band you collect? I bet you would like my Delta Center Depeche Mode 1993 or my Depeche Mode Las Vegas Aladin 1994. What about all the nights at the LA Forum 1993? What about my Nine Inch Nails New Orleans lake Front Arena 1995?? ALL OF THE PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED SHOWS ARE PERFECT ALD'S WITH NO INTERFERENCE AND ARE EXCELENT BOARD FEEDS Hey depechemode1993 (dick) guess what shows will never see the light of day and you will never have/hear?   

Here's a thought:
If you're bootlegging a band's in ear monitor mix you are a CUNT. Recording a show from inside the venue is one thing - you're at least stealing something that is COMPLETE or meant to be PRESENTABLE, but tapping into an in-ear mix - something that is NOT to be presented to the world is the same as stealing a demo.
It sucks as an artist to have your work STOLEN by those such as yourselves that feel it's their right to do so, but this just plain fucking sucks and I assure you I will go to whatever lengths I can to shut you down.

obviously he is against IEM taping, but he is cool with audio and video taping.

Wow, threatening to "withhold" recordings (of somebody else's music, which you weren't permitted to make in the first place) from fans because of a little name-calling.  Nice. 

I'm sure your recordings are excellent.  I can't say I feel the same about that attitude.  Good luck to you.

[Scooter123]

Hey Acid Jack.

If a guy makes a recording, its up to him/her to decide to circulate it or not.  I have several uncirculated recordings for my own use.  I'm not judgmental.

As for ALDs, I've pulled a few this summer.  The feed was quite thin, and really need a bass boost, and even with that, sounded better with an Aud. Matrix at varying ratios, usually 60-40 ALD-Aud where there was a lot of crowd noise, or 60-40 Aud-ALD where the Aud was really clean.

I also ran into fm intereference. 

The real challenge for me was finding the right frequency at the venue.  You really needed an opening act and a set of headphones.

[taperroy]

the alds that ive used to record from, have used the headphone wire, as the antenna. so if you are able to monitor your recording as the show is progressing, it sometimes helps to move the headphone cable somewhat.  also is helpful to sit as close as possible to the mix area, from which the signal (in my experience)  is dispersed.    ive had some tinny sounding shows, but also some good ones.

[George]

the alds that ive used to record from, have used the headphone wire, as the antenna. so if you are able to monitor your recording as the show is progressing, it sometimes helps to move the headphone cable somewhat.  also is helpful to sit as close as possible to the mix area, from which the signal (in my experience)  is dispersed.    ive had some tinny sounding shows, but also some good ones.

Figures you would be one of those "tapers" that uses a ald to record shows.  Grats buddy