Topic: Newbie Getting Started ? and Thanks

[JusTapin]

Sure the D50 would be worth having down the road, but at this starting point I'd stick with a smaller, simpler and cheaper recording able to handle similar situations than the monster D50 I mean, I started taping with a minidisc (remember those small gizmos? yeah) and didn't notice any improvement in my recordings when I upgraded to a portable recording. I only noticed the improvement when I upgraded my mics! Mic type, quality and placement are the main keys of this hobby in my humble opinion - and the recorder doesn't have anything to do with any of these factors!

And this is exactly why I appreciate everyones input and your willingness to help out a newbie, thanks!  I realize now with what you've said and what I've been reading today about the mics being one of the most important components of the entire rig.   

Pardon my ignorance, but why so excited about the D50? I'd think if you were going to spend that much on a recorder, wouldn't you want one with phantom power and xlr inputs, like the pmd661, or the tascam dr100 mkII?

Someone else mentioned the R-05. I use that for lo-pro, and it's great, very reliable. If you can find a good deal on one...

But--as everyone is saying--the mics are more important. Focus on that.

Sorry, it was just the newbie ignorance in me shinning through.   It just seemed like a great price for what is normally a $500 recorder I guess...but then as you've pointed out I didn't even realize the the other capabilities such as XLR inputs and the 48V phantom power that I suppose should probably be expected when moving up into the higher price range of recorders.  I've realized now thanks to you, the others and what I've been reading today that the mics are critical and at this point for me the most important thing now knowing I don't necessarily have to have a high end recorder. 

I'm going to review my options with the recorders further before decided and I've narrowed my list down to the M10, R-05, DR-2D and DR-40.  Of those 4, all are very affordable and will accomplish everything I need at this point.  There are just so many with each seemingly offering something the other doesn't.

Thanks to each of you, your input and patience is greatly appreciated.

[LikeASong]

We all have been newbies at some point (some of us still are in fact ), so don't worry about asking and being advised. You have a great predisposition and lots of apettite for learning - which is great. Best of lucks and keep us posted as to what you decide eventually, etc

[fmaderjr]

In my opinion and experience, most efforts & budget should be spent on a good mics + [preamp/battery box] combo, with the recorder being the less "improvable" step. I don't think your starting tapes will be much better getting a D50 than getting any of the portable recorders that have been suggested before, like the DR2D or the M10 (I suggest the Roland R05, unexpensive and reliable, as an alteranative to those 2 as well), but you would/will have quite a lot less budget left to invest on a good pair of mics and power supply. Just my 2 cents of course   And welcome to the wonderful world of taping!

I agree 100%, although I don't recommend getting one of the really cheap recorders that is little discussed here (which may be inclined to overload too easily and spoil your recordings). As long as you use a recorder that has gotten positive reviews here you should be fine. I don't see an advantage to getting an M50 over and M10 (I have used both) unless you have to use the internal mics. An R05 or M10 with a properly configured tinybox and good plug in power mics like Ca14's or AT853's would be a great way to start out. You'll probably want to add and extension cable and a stand too if you are doing open recordings in venues where you can set up the stand. Then you 'd be all set to add phantom powered mics like the Busman BCS1's or active BCS2's when you are ready.

[JusTapin]

After much reading and deliberation with the voices in my head (haha) and some help from acidjack (thanks!) I made a decision today to increase my budget a little.   Y'all said spend all my money on mics, so I DID! LOL  The first part of my rig is a pair of used AGK C460 B mics with CK61 caps.  They've been tested and come with a guarantee.  They also come with Audio Technica AT8410a shock mounts and a Neumann BS48i-2 power supply.   

We all have been newbies at some point (some of us still are in fact ), so don't worry about asking and being advised. You have a great predisposition and lots of apettite for learning - which is great. Best of lucks and keep us posted as to what you decide eventually, etc

LikeASong, thanks!  I've got to say of the many forums I've been a part of or more accurately a newbie of over the years, I've got to say everyone I've encountered here so far has been nothing but patient, helpful and friendly.  To me that says a lot for this hobby and the caliber of folks here at TS.  I'm definitely grateful and so appreciative because on many forums newbies are either flamed or worse, ignored all together.

In my opinion and experience, most efforts & budget should be spent on a good mics + [preamp/battery box] combo, with the recorder being the less "improvable" step. I don't think your starting tapes will be much better getting a D50 than getting any of the portable recorders that have been suggested before, like the DR2D or the M10 (I suggest the Roland R05, unexpensive and reliable, as an alteranative to those 2 as well), but you would/will have quite a lot less budget left to invest on a good pair of mics and power supply. Just my 2 cents of course   And welcome to the wonderful world of taping!

I agree 100%, although I don't recommend getting one of the really cheap recorders that is little discussed here (which may be inclined to overload too easily and spoil your recordings). As long as you use a recorder that has gotten positive reviews here you should be fine. I don't see an advantage to getting an M50 over and M10 (I have used both) unless you have to use the internal mics. An R05 or M10 with a properly configured tinybox and good plug in power mics like Ca14's or AT853's would be a great way to start out. You'll probably want to add and extension cable and a stand too if you are doing open recordings in venues where you can set up the stand. Then you 'd be all set to add phantom powered mics like the Busman BCS1's or active BCS2's when you are ready.

fmaderjr - Thanks for your input.  That's one of my biggest fears getting into this hobby with no experience or knowledge to this point, well, other than a boat load of reading I've been trying to do.  But there are things you just can't know by reading and you've got to learn by either just doing it and/or obviously being around others who are willing to share their experiences and knowledge.  That why I have found TS so invaluable!  And is why I value your's and the other's input because this is an expensive hobby and those oh crap impulse buys can turn into very costly mistakes as I've learned that lesson the hard way in other hobbies I've gotten involved with over the years. 

Having said all that I haven't yet made my final decision on which deck to get yet.  Every time I think I have my list down to two, I read or see something and spend an hour or what seems like days now researching it....like the 20 page review thread I read started by tonedeaf on the DR-100MKII. lol   What a great review he and other members put together on that deck!  But for now I'm still stuck on the M10, DR-40 and R-05, kind of in that order.  I think tonight I'm going to lay out the pros and cons of each on paper and see if I can't make a decision.  I think either of 3 would serve my purpose for now and I can upgrade if need be down the road.

[LikeASong]

Well, dude, that's some KILLER starting rig, although I've only seen that mics in studio setups, never in field/concert recordings. Nevertheless, if you've been advised by acidjack I thoroughly believe you've made a great decission

[JusTapin]

Well, dude, that's some KILLER starting rig, although I've only seen that mics in studio setups, never in field/concert recordings. Nevertheless, if you've been advised by acidjack I thoroughly believe you've made a great decission

He's been a great help, although, I've also used several sources here and online in researching the AGK C460Bs which also helped in making my final decision.  Seems resale on them is descent and I'm having thoughts of possibly selling the Neumann and going with maybe one of the boxes from Naiant or I guess it depends too if I try one of the decks which provides phantom power etc.  I listened to a lot of taped material at Archive.org that was recorded at different venues so they seemed pretty versatile, I thought.  Also what really sealed the deal was when I found some flac files of my favorite band (Dave Matthews Band) that were taped using these. 

Now if I can decide on a deck!  I need to hurry up because I'm hoping to get some practice in before Tim Reynolds TR3 plays up in Raleigh Feb 8, which I am hoping is my first taping.   

[Todd R]

I wrote this as part of a pm already, but I'd recommend a Marantz PMD661, Tascam DR100 mkii, Roland R26, or the older Fostex FR2LE -- one of the all-in-one recorders that provides P48.  Then decide down the road whether to get an external preamp.

Personally, I'd go with the Roland R26 based on the strength of the R44 which I owned, the strength of Acidjack's review, and it's ability to run 4ch if you ever want to go that route.  Clearly, lots and lots of choices though, and lots of perfectly good paths to start on.

[bryonsos]

Now if I can decide on a deck!  I need to hurry up because I'm hoping to get some practice in before Tim Reynolds TR3 plays up in Raleigh Feb 8, which I am hoping is my first taping.

Where/when is that? I'm in Raleigh, and I might be able to come out.

[fmaderjr]

I'm having thoughts of possibly selling the Neumann and going with maybe one of the boxes from Naiant or I guess it depends too if I try one of the decks which provides phantom power etc. 

That's what I would do. I know I'll get ripped for this, but I was shocked to find out that the Neumanns cost something like $1150 new and only provide phantom power. If you are trying to build a great sounding rig while balancing that with frugality, I wouldn't think that would be one of your first choices, no matter how good it is.

People here have had great success recording with the Naiant Tinybox (around $250-$300 I think) to power their mics and it provides gain and other optional features as well as phantom power. I have a Naiant Littlebox (the Tinybox's larger predecessor, and love it). I doubt if your recordings would be audibly better with the Neumann (and at times the Tinybox could actually be better for quieter sources due the its available gain), but that's only my own opinion without having heard comparisons, of course.

If you go for a Tinybox, an M10 or R-05 is probably a better choice for your recorder than a DR-40. You don't need a recorder with phantom power since the Tinybox provides that, and the M10 and R-05 are smaller than the DR-40 with better battery life.

[JusTapin]

I wrote this as part of a pm already, but I'd recommend a Marantz PMD661, Tascam DR100 mkii, Roland R26, or the older Fostex FR2LE -- one of the all-in-one recorders that provides P48.  Then decide down the road whether to get an external preamp.

Personally, I'd go with the Roland R26 based on the strength of the R44 which I owned, the strength of Acidjack's review, and it's ability to run 4ch if you ever want to go that route.  Clearly, lots and lots of choices though, and lots of perfectly good paths to start on.

Todd - thanks for the pm's and information.  I know in the beginning I was trying to keep a low budget, but I'm just not sure now considering I've blown my keep a low budget concept right out of the water with one purchase. LOL  And now that I've done that, I've been thinking of the bigger recorders primarily because of the P48 and xlr jacks and the fact that I won't be (hopefully) itching to upgrade in the near term. Decisions!
 

Now if I can decide on a deck!  I need to hurry up because I'm hoping to get some practice in before Tim Reynolds TR3 plays up in Raleigh Feb 8, which I am hoping is my first taping.

Where/when is that? I'm in Raleigh, and I might be able to come out.

Bryon - That'd be great!  TR3 is playing at the Southland Ballroom, 614 N West St, February 8th.  I'm not at all familiar with the location.  I'm definitely going it's just a matter of whether I'll be taping or not. 

I'm having thoughts of possibly selling the Neumann and going with maybe one of the boxes from Naiant or I guess it depends too if I try one of the decks which provides phantom power etc. 

That's what I would do. I know I'll get ripped for this, but I was shocked to find out that the Neumanns cost something like $1150 new and only provide phantom power. If you are trying to build a great sounding rig while balancing that with frugality, I wouldn't think that would be one of your first choices, no matter how good it is.

People here have had great success recording with the Naiant Tinybox (around $250-$300 I think) to power their mics and it provides gain and other optional features as well as phantom power. I have a Naiant Littlebox (the Tinybox's larger predecessor, and love it). I doubt if your recordings would be audibly better with the Neumann (and at times the Tinybox could actually be better for quieter sources due the its available gain), but that's only my own opinion without having heard comparisons, of course.

If you go for a Tinybox, an M10 or R-05 is probably a better choice for your recorder than a DR-40. You don't need a recorder with phantom power since the Tinybox provides that, and the M10 and R-05 are smaller than the DR-40 with better battery life.

fmaderjr - yeah, I'm obviously not really at all familiar with the Neumann other than knowing it's more than I'd have paid for it new when there are the other options which are less expensive that would probably perform as good or better.  My dilemma right now is I'm not 100% sure which connectors (thinking xlrs from the pictures) are on the mics I just bought and not knowing enough about using connector adapters and whether I'll have time to order new cables/connectors or a Littlebox etc, I've been leaning towards a deck that has onboard phantom power and the xlr jacks.  Also, because I'm thinking I wouldn't need to upgrade the deck in the near term.  So that obviously limits the field greatly and then brings the deck battery life into the equation and decision process as well.  Not at all saying anything negative about the decks that don't have those two options, and I suppose just not knowing is why I haven't made my mind up on the deck yet or just exactly which direction I'm going to proceed.  Thanks for the idea's though, I'm definitely trying to understand, learn and weigh all the million options.

[Todd R]

Of course, now I've got Jon also saying to get an all-in-one recorder, and I'm thinking of recanting.

I didn't realize the Neumann supply you got with that ebay auction was a battery supply, I thought it was AC.  If you already have a battery operated phantom supply, getting a used Sony M10 might make some sense.  They have good built-in gain (preamp) and are low noise.  Pick up a used one for $200 or under, and use it with your Neumann supply and AKG mics.

If you want to upgrade later, given how easy it is to resell used M10's, you can then sell the M10 and the Neumann supply.  Then you can get going with taping for only another $200, and the M10 is quite acceptable.  Decide afterwards what you want from sound, amount of money into the hobby, tradeoffs of size vs flexibility vs sound vs cost, etc.

I'm sure you could resell the M10 for $175 or so, so you'd only be out $25 for the first round rig should you decide to upgrade.

[fatstratcat]

...I've been visualizing sitting in my floor seat Row L center for Willie Nelson, with a recorder on my lap and something similar to the extension pole being held between my legs and extended upward when the lights dim as the music starts. LOL

I'll be behind you to your right running  CA-11 > CA 9200 > M10.

[F.O.Bean]

I would say go with a cheaper all in one as well. That's all you need for now and can add a preamp later on if so desired

[JusTapin]

C460s are phantom-powered XLR out mics.  I would also go for an all-in-one.  You don't have time to get a tinybox before Feb. 8, so that will probably further influence your decision.

The tinybox/M10 crowd is usually interested in flexibility, so they aren't necessarily always running the tinybox--they might run mini-mics direct or with a battery box on other occasions.  And almost half of tinyboxes are sold to support "active" capsule configurations, where the mic body isn't used and phantom power is thus not required.  The advantage there is smaller footprint up on the stand and much lower power consumption which yields very long runtime.  An active tinybox-M10 setup could run all day.

The C460s are very efficient mics though, so your runtime will be as good as it gets for a recorder with phantom.

Jon - thanks for your input and more technical information.  Learning the C460s were phontom-powered is what I think was pushing my thoughts more towards an all-in-one and it just kind of seemed just kind of seemed if I could get one with xlr jacks it would avoid the need for additional adapters or trying to figure that all out.  With an all-in-one I thought I could eliminate some of the initial learning curve by plugging mics directly into the deck and worry more with learning deck settings while picking up more knowledge as time goes on.  There's just SO much to learn! haha

I mulled over the bigger all-in-one decks until 4 this morning and then spent most of today trying to decide.  I really liked the Roland R-26 from the reviews I've read etc, but then the more I thought about the sticker price dipping into some of the expense of the other items I'm going to initial need, ie, clamps, stand, bag etc, I settled for now on the DR-40.  It was nearly $15 cheaper yet this afternoon went I checked online so I ordered it through Amazon for a mere $124 shipped.  Figure if nothing else, I'll buy a little of time to learn more and to learn more about some of the bigger decks before spending $400 or $500.  From what I've read the DR-40 will probably serve my purpose for now and if it doesn't, I'm not out a lot of money and I can learn a little bit about settings in the mean time.

Of course, now I've got Jon also saying to get an all-in-one recorder, and I'm thinking of recanting.

I didn't realize the Neumann supply you got with that ebay auction was a battery supply, I thought it was AC.  If you already have a battery operated phantom supply, getting a used Sony M10 might make some sense.  They have good built-in gain (preamp) and are low noise.  Pick up a used one for $200 or under, and use it with your Neumann supply and AKG mics.

If you want to upgrade later, given how easy it is to resell used M10's, you can then sell the M10 and the Neumann supply.  Then you can get going with taping for only another $200, and the M10 is quite acceptable.  Decide afterwards what you want from sound, amount of money into the hobby, tradeoffs of size vs flexibility vs sound vs cost, etc.

I'm sure you could resell the M10 for $175 or so, so you'd only be out $25 for the first round rig should you decide to upgrade.

Todd - I almost went this route.  With the excellent reviews and popularity of the M10 it was very difficult not to do so especially when B&H has them marked down to $199 right now for red or black.  I was just worried about rushing to figure out adapters or what have you to connect the mic xlr's etc and sort of got frustrated and went with what I "think" I know should hook right up with the DR-40.  I may still in the very near term go with an M10, in fact I still haven't completely given up on the notion of just ordering one now and seeing which I can learn easier etc.  As you say, given the M10 resale potential it wouldn't be much of a loss if any at all.

I'll be behind you to your right running  CA-11 > CA 9200 > M10.

Great to know someone else will be there taping, maybe we could meet up prior to the show.  I pm'd you.

I would say go with a cheaper all in one as well. That's all you need for now and can add a preamp later on if so desired

Thanks, your advice has definitely helped ease my mind a little since this it what I ended up doing after second guessing my decision all weekend.   I too am thinking with the DR-40 if nothing I can get in the game and learn.  Aside from the mic setup, it's minimal cost and if it doesn't work out or once I get comfortable understanding operating a deck, then I can figure out which to grow into. 

[F.O.Bean]

I think youll b happy w that. If you can afford to, get a tinybox and youll b set