Topic: New Guy, Some Broad Sweeping Questions...

[mtandy89]

Hello! Well, I'm the new guy. Both to the board, and to taping. I'm 24, I'm in Mass, and I want to learn to tape! I'm not looking for something crazy like some of y'all have, just a nice light rig for local shows, and a few big shows per year (Primus, Phish, DSO, Mule...) but I frankly know nothing about taping. I've been trying to read up for a while now, but there's been no good beginner resource that i've found that's up to date.

So, I guess the best way to approach this is to present the rig I had in mind from my scattered research, and have y'all tell me why I totally screwed it up! 

I was hoping to spend under $300 to get rocking....

Core-Sound LCSC>Mini-XLR Cable>Behringer Tube Ultragain MIC200>XLR-Mini Cable>Tascam DR-05

Ok, please teach me!

[bryonsos]

Some good stuff here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=169492.msg2105475#new

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

That is a nice starter rig. With the recorder it will be a bit over $300 though, but WAY better than those Core Sounds.

Toss a $79 recorder behind that an you're in good shape.

As far as learning is concerned, I'd try to bring your new rig to "(Primus, Phish, DSO, Mule...)" ...ie a show where there will be many other tapers and learn from them.

[mtandy89]

Next show I have is Primus at the end of October, but i'm not sure I can scratch up the cash to get this rolling by then. The hardest part, I think, is going to be piecing this together over time.

I'm also trying to stick with stealthy mics, as most shows i've been to around here have been specifically "no taping" environments...

[vanark]

Not sure if the venues are no taping or the artists are... hard to tell from your statement.  I'd say most venues in the New England region are familiar with tapers and if the artist is okay with it, they will be too.  But, if the artists you want to tape require a low profile setup, I understand.  I just wanted you to know that there are plenty of venues that are very much okay with taping in Mass. and the surrounding areas.  And a fair number of tapers.

[mtandy89]

My guess is that it's more the artist than the venue. I was wondering, actually, how hard it is to get gear in

[Phil Zone]

There are a god amount of mics that would put you in that bal park. I started with Samson cl2 and Luke them a lot and u used a art USB dual press as my preamp and a dr05 as a recorder and it sounded pretty great. The preamp had a great battery life and was very versatile I'd just consider all that stuff. We ate all here to help out, ask any questions you have.

[chinariderstl]

Well welcome to the boards, and to the community as a whole.  I'll add my two cents, for what it's worth.

First and foremost; read, read, read.  Read the boards, you will learn a lot that way.  Take what you've read and starting Googling around.  You will pick up a lot of information that way.  Secondly, head to the Live Music Archive at archive.org and listen to a bunch of shows using different rigs.  You will start to quickly find what sound you like, what mics, etc.

When it comes to mics, if you are looking for small plug-in-power mics, like the Core Sounds, I would pass on those and lean towards either a pair of Audio-Technica AT853's or a pair of Naiant X-X's.  darktrain (Robb) does a lot of work with Audio-Technica AT853's and you will find them in the Yard Sale regularly for pretty cheap.  You can also score a new pair of Naiant X-X's for the same price from Jon at Naiant Studios.

If you want phantom-powered mics, like AKG's, Audix, Audio-Technica, Busman, etc., you'll likely find good deals on good equipment in the Yard Sale.  There may even be a pair of Busman BSC1's in the Yard Sale now.  You cannot beat those for a nice pair of first mics.  Something along those lines would require either a mic-preamp (like a Naiant Tinybox, Edirol UA5, Denecke PS-2, etc.) and a deck (like the Tascam you mentioned, the Sony PCM-M10, or a Tascam DR-2D) or a deck with built-in phantom power support (Tascam DR-100mkII).

You can even find single, point-and-shoot microphones out there, for example, the Shure VP88 and the Audio-Technica AT822 and Audio-Technica AT8022.

The options are endless.  I would suggest you monitor the Yard Sale for a while before making any decisions.  You'll find this is a great community and a lot of tapers like to keep the gear in the community.  You will, no doubt, find excellent gear at fair prices in the YS.

Hopefully that helps some.

[nulldogmas]

As a former Core Sound LCSC user, I'd vote against them as well. They're small and clear, but really tinny to my ear compared to other cardioids.

And YMMV, but in my experience getting gear in at the vast majority of venues is way less of an issue than you'd think. I spent my first few taping years stressed out that some beefy security guy would pin me up against a wall and say, "What's this? A PAIR OF MINIATURE CARDIOID MICROPHONES?!?" But the reality is that, with few exceptions, the beefy security guys mostly don't care, and wouldn't recognize recording gear even if you waved it in their face regardless.

(Also, this is another good reason to start working up your nerve early to email artists for permission — not just because it's The Right Thing To Do, but because it significantly reduces the stress level, even if you're still using the same stealthy gear.)

[bombdiggity]

If budget is the driving factor I'd get a low cost (but solid) recorder (one with decent built in mics may be a plus at a real entry level) that supplies plug-in power for mini mics.  Also get a pair of decent mini mics.  Based on your intended use that would get you started, probably well under budget and if you pick the mics carefully might keep you happy a long time. 

I like the Sound Professionals cards for a low cost option.  Their best (CMC-25s) would likely consume your budget but you'd probably never need anything else if you're not planning to spend a ton and go big (full size mics, preamps/phantom power, stand, etc., etc.).  Those are a really good match for loud rock shows but IMO do really well on almost anything.  Their CMC-8's or CMC-2's with their basic battery box are versatile and less.  Other good ones also suggested above.  The Yard Sale here may help you punch well above the weight of your wallet as well. 

Your budget usually goes up (and the lo-profile factor obviously goes down) if you move into full size mics that need phantom power or preamps.  They can be less forgiving while learning as well.  If the lo-profile options with those lead to active cables you can forget that budget. 

Since you seem to have a fair number of big loud shows in the mix I'd lean toward cards (though I do anyway).  Mini mics can help keep the bass and room reverb under control from suboptimal positions in those settings. 

Also as mentioned if you go to open taping shows spend some time at the taping section finding out more about what people are doing and using.  Though it doesn't happen much anymore you can even take the patching route when available. 

[mtandy89]

Man, you guys rock, thanks for all the advice!

[cottle]

Just chiming in to say welcome.  You've come to the right place.  I'm a noob too, doing this on/off for the last few years.  There is a wealth of information in the threads on this board.  Any piece of gear, any technique, any venue/band you can think of, probably all have a thread devoted to them.  Just gotta poke around.

I'm in agreement with those above that some AT853's from the yard sale would suit you right, both in price and in application.  They're tiny enough to stealth with, but they don't compromise in sound.  There have been several pairs in the yard lately for less than $150. 

Again, welcome to the board.

[George]

FWIW, I started off with a pair of AT853 cards, a sound professionals battery box and a recorder.  The AT853's are still used to this day, they are robust and sound really nice for the price.  I highly recommend them as your starter microphones.  They are certainly easy to  with, just make sure you purchase a pair of clips to go with them.  As for your battery box/preamp...go with a preamp for the adjustable gain.  Just find something that sounds good...you may need to stretch your budget a bit, but it'll be worth it for the long haul.  With the options we have at our fingertips, it just makes sense to pick up like the tinybox and call it a day.  As the recorder, that's your call.

[eman]

I have 853 cards and hypers, and have found that the hypers blow away the cards in every way. Not sure why, and it isn't just the pattern- the cards are dull and lifeless in comparison.

[thunderbolt]

Another vote for the AT853. 

Don't be fooled by their low price.  They are capable of making some seriously good recordings and are very flexible in their application with the different available caps.  While a preamp is useful, getting the 4.7k (Church Audio) mod is essential if you'll be recording loud shows.  A 9V battery box in lieu of a preamp will work just fine in the beginning.

[Marshall7]

I love my AT853's, too.  I have the card and omni caps, would love to get the hypers.

[chinariderstl]

...would love to get the hypers.

I second that; not trying to hijack the thread, but I'd love to get my hands on a pair of hypers.  If anyone has a pair laying around, please let me know.

[Marshall7]

...would love to get the hypers.

I second that; not trying to hijack the thread, but I'd love to get my hands on a pair of hypers.  If anyone has a pair laying around, please let me know.

Hey!  Get in line! 

[thunderbolt]

$139 pair at SP.  I paid; worth it IMHO.

[noahbickart]

If you are thinking about taping bands with open sections, have you thought about patching for a while? That's how most people used to get started. You patch, block, hang out. Pretty soon you've made taper friends who are more than happy to lend you gear.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

My only advice:  don't cheap-skate yourself at the beginning.  You are better off saving your money (all the while doing more and more listening and research) and getting what you will really want, rather than to spend a little here and there getting lackluster results in the meantime... 

With that in mind, I would buy a nice deck and build around that.  I would suggest an M10 or a HD-P2...

Terry


ETA, first things first, I would find the Team Mass thread and get to know those people.  They can give you lots of hands-on advice via their own gear and their own experience at local venues around Mass...

[404 Not Found]

mtandy89, welcome to the board!

Lots of good advice already in the prior quotes.

If you are serious about recording, then start with an scalable setup that you can grow with.  You will not get the setup of your dreams in a day as you know.  It takes time in piecing together and accumulating many of the rigs you see in some of the signatures on the forum as well as from threads discussing particular recorders, stands, mic's and so on. 

If you are going to be recording at various taper friendly events, you may want to consider starting with a deck 1st of which would meet your needs and patch from others until you have the $ for mic.'s.  What I mean by scalable is to get a recorder that's capable of being easily expanded or upgraded depending on your future Mic's and Mixers/Pre's based upon digital input optical input, xlr  or 1/4" in's and such that will ultimately follow on your recording accessory upgrade list.  Who doesn't have a monthly bill to paypal, sweetwater or B&H to name a few?  It gets addictive, to the point of daily visits to Trew Audio, Gotham and a few other Location Sound Equipment Sales, Rentals & Service for Film & Video Production sites.

Some great deals out there on recorders....do the homework and check the websites for the spec pages and compare what's out there that will ultimately meet your needs.

BTW, a Zoom H6 and H5 are not bad to start off with, especially if you are looking to spend only $300.

Enjoy the forum, and look for the "Team" section, as you will probably find a local group to your area to discuss local events.  Know your fellow local taper....you never know when you may need a spare AA battery, patch or even a Velcro tie at an event!

[mec111272]

The obligatory Church Audio plug.

At camp Creek I ran CA14 cards, CA14 Omnis,  Cards to a CA9200 Preamp and Omnis with the plug in power on a Tascam DR2d.  So four channels one preamp some clamps and here we have it.

https://archive.org/details/MC2014-08-24._CA14_

Costs;

Mics and Pre amp from super deal this spring $150
Recorder $100
Misc crap to make it all hang on a rail $50
 $300.

[fmaderjr]

I have 853 cards and hypers, and have found that the hypers blow away the cards in every way. Not sure why, and it isn't just the pattern- the cards are dull and lifeless in comparison.

I only used my hypers about 3 times when in a balcony far from the monitors. All three recordings sounded way better than I expected. I also like the cards when appropriate though (but the sub-cards when appropriate are my favorite).

[yltfan]

One more vote for AT853. If you get in the right spot, they can really shine!

[mtandy89]

I'm thinking i'm going to be doing a lot of open taping, but the stuff I most want to get will not be taper friendly, for the most part, so I'm thinking the AT853's are going to be the way to go for me…Forgive my awful questions, but what is patching?

I didn't realize there were local threads, so I guess I'll jump over there next!

Thanks for all the awesome info, guys, way to make a noob feel welcome!

[bombdiggity]

Forgive my awful questions, but what is patching?

Patching meaning running a line out of someone else's rig, so you're "in line" behind their gear.  In the early daze people would chain their decks together (sometimes out of the board, sometimes behind the mics they liked best).  I recall one show where I had the board feed and about 8 guys behind me one after another    (at that point in time analog and I think a few of them minidisc)... 

[mtandy89]

Forgive my awful questions, but what is patching?

Patching meaning running a line out of someone else's rig, so you're "in line" behind their gear.  In the early daze people would chain their decks together (sometimes out of the board, sometimes behind the mics they liked best).  I recall one show where I had the board feed and about 8 guys behind me one after another    (at that point in time analog and I think a few of them minidisc)...

Ahh, I hadn't even considered that a possibility! The more you know...

[chinariderstl]

If you pick up a pair of AT853's, make sure to pick up one of Brian's (it-goes-to-eleven) Delrin mounting bars.  Everything is measured out, true plug-and-play.  Takes out the guesswork and makes setup and tear-down a cinch.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=168213.msg2106529#msg2106529

[mtandy89]

If you pick up a pair of AT853's, make sure to pick up one of Brian's (it-goes-to-eleven) Delrin mounting bars.  Everything is measured out, true plug-and-play.  Takes out the guesswork and makes setup and tear-down a cinch.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=168213.msg2106529#msg2106529

Those are sweet! What does that require to set up besides mics and a stand?

[cottle]

If you pick up a pair of AT853's, make sure to pick up one of Brian's (it-goes-to-eleven) Delrin mounting bars.  Everything is measured out, true plug-and-play.  Takes out the guesswork and makes setup and tear-down a cinch.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=168213.msg2106529#msg2106529

Those are sweet! What does that require to set up besides mics and a stand?

you'd just need one shock mount to hold the bar in place. 

[Ultfris101]

Usually you put them in a microphone shockmount made for standard small condenser microphone bodies with about 19mm or so diameter. Get the proper combination of thread adapters if necessary to mount it to your stand. Sufficient cable to run down from mics to preamp/recorder, a bag to put it all in and you're ready to start.

In reality there's no end to number of accessories and options you could choose from. Need vs Want comes into play of course.

This is a good basic shockmount that will work: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/298919-REG/WindTech_SP_20_SP_20_Microhone_Shockmount.html

There are tons of these at all price points. The Rycote Invisions are some of the best but expensive.

Some odds and ends that most people carry some version of:
 - rapid adapter: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/546490-REG/Manfrotto_014_38_014_38_Rapid_Adapter.html
 - adjustable stereo bar: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/534727-REG/K_M_23550_500_55_23550_Adjustable_Microphone_Bar.html
 - mic clamp: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/894541-REG/K_M_23800_500_55_238_Microphone_Holder.html

The mic clamp and shockmount can get you setup on just about any stand or vertical pole. Usually other people will let you squeeze into open space on their stand if you ask them and take care not to interfere with their setup.

[chinariderstl]

If you pick up a pair of AT853's, make sure to pick up one of Brian's (it-goes-to-eleven) Delrin mounting bars.  Everything is measured out, true plug-and-play.  Takes out the guesswork and makes setup and tear-down a cinch.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=168213.msg2106529#msg2106529

Those are sweet! What does that require to set up besides mics and a stand?

you'd just need one shock mount to hold the bar in place.

This is the shock mount I use.  It fits Brian's bars perfectly.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/68624-REG/Shure_A55M_A55M_Isolation_and_Swivel.html

[George]

I have 853 cards and hypers, and have found that the hypers blow away the cards in every way. Not sure why, and it isn't just the pattern- the cards are dull and lifeless in comparison.

I'll try the hypers again, I recall finding them too bright from prior use.

[Marshall7]

I have 853 cards and hypers, and have found that the hypers blow away the cards in every way. Not sure why, and it isn't just the pattern- the cards are dull and lifeless in comparison.

I'll try the hypers again, I recall finding them too bright from prior use.

If you decide you don't like them, and want to sell, let me know!

[nameloc01]

my primary advise would be this... spend the extra few dollars right from the start.. you do not want to buy any gear that is (relatively) a few bucks less than something else that is widely used/loved and find out that it sucks, you don't like it and then have to pretty much "upgrade" immediately. That is a very commonly made mistake. (myself included,several x's over) I realise its hard to hold off to come up with the extra $$, but it will save you ~a lot~ of money in the long run.

things to look into which will serve stealth and open taping beautifully:

- ATu853s mics with a set of card/omni caps and a set of rotating "clips" for stealth missions (also the appropriate power supply).
- Church Audio mic/preamp combos.
- Sony PCM-M10 or a Tascam recording deck.
- quality cables... ie "Darktrain"
- a set of mounts/windscreens/mounting bar for the mics.
- a Superclamp for when a stand isn't possible.. ( get the "wedge" attachment for mounting to flat surfaces (tables,ledges, ect)
- a quality stand with a small "footprint" (if running a stand, be sure to have any cables you may need to make it down to your recorder/gear/gearbag which will likely be on the floor or at least quite a bit below the mics)
-  some sort of gear bag.

last bit of advise, if you're stealthing, wear comfortable shoes and don't drink any beer, before or during the show ~at all~  (to avoid having to leave to take a piss)

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Next show I have is Primus at the end of October, but i'm not sure I can scratch up the cash to get this rolling by then. The hardest part, I think, is going to be piecing this together over time.

I'm also trying to stick with stealthy mics, as most shows i've been to around here have been specifically "no taping" environments...

A heads up that if you plan to record Primus, you'd be wise to go stealthy.  They haven't allowed open taping in about 4 years and it's been debated whether or not they actually condoned it in the first place or just tolerated it.  Thought I'd point it out since you lumped them together with open taping performers in your first post.  (Primus, Phish, DSO, Mule...)

Welcome to the Section, mtandy, and have fun putting your rig together.

[Ultfris101]

last bit of advise, if you're stealthing, wear comfortable shoes and don't drink any beer, before or during the show ~at all~  (to avoid having to leave to take a piss)

Although I do get a chuckle when I come across a stealth tape where somebody takes the recorder to the can and keeps it running so you don't miss the muffled music coming through the walls and door, but do of course get treated to various sounds created by the process

Lots of good advice here. Have fun!

[Scooter123]

Several of my raw tapes have that feature.  The problem is that the whole event takes way too long, and I have to go through various shakes and then more pissing.  Its like one of the Naked Gun movies. 

[earmonger]

Definitely talk to your fellow Massachusettsans (?) about patching. Recorders are so good now that what matters most is the incoming signal. Hook up to someone with super mics and you will have a great recording.

But of course you'll want your own.

Since budget is important and you are recording amplified bands, you really don't need a preamp at this stage (or possibly ever). A battery box will save you $100 or more, even over a starter preamp, and it's all you need. Preamps, well, amplify the signal from your mic. But a loud concert doesn't need to be amplified--all it needs is for power to be sent to the mic to make it perform at its best.

What you do need are mics that take plug-in power (which is low enough to be supplied by the recorder, but better supplied by a battery box). Phantom power is 48V, needs a separate box, not for a starting setup. 

You also need to decide whether you want cardioid mics (which are directional) or omni mics (omnidirectional). I am in the omni camp--it sounds richer and rounder to me,  because budget cardioids have less bass and because, at times, recording with cardioids and listening through headphones gives an odd "backless" sensation to the stereo, as if there's a void behind you. (Though if there's a chatty audience I'd long for cardioids to shut out the yappers behind me.)   

Again, cardioids are directional.  In a fixed position, on a mic stand, that's fine--the whole concert doesn't swing around as it would if you moved them. But stealth recording can also mean just clipping the mics to a shirt collar, glasses, etc., and if you do that you are going to be less happy with cardioids. Omnis are more forgiving. (Also, if it's a factor, they can handle wind noise better in outdoor situations.)

Really, go to Live Music Archive and listen to mics you are considering--you'll find plenty of material from your chosen bands.

Core Sounds were once many tapers' choice but now there are options that are cheaper with better sound.  Church Audio was mentioned above, and I love the CA-14 omnis.  They are not the stealthiest thing--size of the tip of your thumb--but in the dark at a show, people aren't looking at you.

Since I got those, Chris Church (who makes everything by hand) has said his CA-11 are even better omnis, and they are also smaller (CA-14 is built into a foam windscreen).  You should think about those and get the $29 Ugly battery module with them, which is basically a gizmo that snaps onto a 9V battery.  Church Audio is in Canada, so shipping adds time and price, and is slow to deliver--you'd join a long queue and might not get the mics before October--but they also show up in the Yard Sale here.

I haven't used the Tascam, but I can tell you that the Sony PCM-M10 is one solid and easy to use recorder. Also, with its simple rectangular shape--its mics are recessed--I've had many security people think it's a point-and-shoot camera. I can in good conscience promise not to shoot one photo with it.

Mics (with clips for shirt/glasses mounting), battery box, PCM-M10. Very happy with countless shows recorded that way.

[splumer]

Several of my raw tapes have that feature.  The problem is that the whole event takes way too long, and I have to go through various shakes and then more pissing.  Its like one of the Naked Gun movies.

You need the Stadium Pal!
http://www.stadiumpal.com/

[2manyrocks]

My thought on this is to save up a bit more if necessary and just buy once.  The m10 is about $230 at B & H photo.  The At853s are about $135-$150 or so when they show up in the yard sale.  Add a battery box or build one if you want to go cheap or buy one of the pipsqueaks from Naiant for about $160.  That puts you up around $550, but that's cheaper in the long run than making several buys of stuff that doesn't quite work out. 

[chinariderstl]

My thought on this is to save up a bit more if necessary and just buy once.  The m10 is about $230 at B & H photo.  The At853s are about $135-$150 or so when they show up in the yard sale.  Add a battery box or build one if you want to go cheap or buy one of the pipsqueaks from Naiant for about $160.  That puts you up around $550, but that's cheaper in the long run than making several buys of stuff that doesn't quite work out.

That would be a sweet rig.  I have the same exact setup for my low-profile rig, except I have the earlier incarnation of the PIPsqueak; the Tinyhead.

[spankee02]

It's super cool that this site exists. When I started in 94, there was no info on the craft to be found, just other tapers!

[obaaron]

I also recommend AT853's as you will also have the option to add various capsules..cardioid, hypercard, omni and subcard and they sound really nice for the price

[monkfish]

Without starting a separate thread I just want to add my thanks for all the great advice in this one. I'm a noob too - well, if you don't count Tull at Madison Square Garden in 1979 or Floyd at Nassau Coliseum in 1980 that I recorded on a mono cassette deck w/internal mic ... or the 17 Dead shows I taped in 1991 using a D6 with ECM-909 - Phil who? - and the heaviest/tallest stand in the section ... or a few Radiators shows including one at the Paradise in Boston where I happily learned of the concept of sbd patches. Anyway, this board is an amazing resource as I look to get (back) in the game and sort out options.

My first objective is to record my guitar-playing son in his ensemble at his high school Thursday night. I'm not going to be able to decide on and get external mics in time but am pretty close to pulling the trigger on a DR-40; the internal mics will suffice for this. I may or may not do stealth down the road so size isn't a huge consideration, but I do anticipate having use for the XLR/TRS combo inputs for field and home recording. My one noob question at this point - and from my research I think but am not sure I know the answer: Will I be able to plug an unbalanced output like a guitar into the TRS input, and if so what if any effects might there be? Or would I have to run it through a separate pre-amp?

[ScoobieKW]

My one noob question at this point - and from my research I think but am not sure I know the answer: Will I be able to plug an unbalanced output like a guitar into the TRS input, and if so what if any effects might there be? Or would I have to run it through a separate pre-amp?

To record guitar direct, you need to go from instrument level (high impedence unbalanced) to mic level (low impedence - balanced)
The tool for this is a direct box.

Cheapest direct boxes are around $20, ones with high quality transformers can set you back several hundred
The Whirlwind iMP 2 at $50 is a good, reliable choice.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/IMP2?adpos=1o2&creative=54989263441&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CjwKEAiA2JqkBRDshIOY_9eMghkSJABvNd1QpP94trAyytZ4ibWQHIT_bnJwHWjbEBhVYwPbGQ8H8BoCU0Lw_wcB

[2manyrocks]

It has been reported that the Dr40 does not like unbalanced inputs.  https://mikeriversaudio.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/tascam_dr-40_review_mr_final.pdf


Have you looked at the DR 60D?  Two mic/line inputs plus 1/8 stereo input for $169.99 (no internal mics)?  Or looked at the DR100mkii now for $199 two channel, but card and omni mics built in plus XLRs with phantom power? 

I'd be surprised if any of them could handle a guitar direct in without a DI box which will come in handy anyway. 

[chinariderstl]

I have always coveted the Tascam DR-100mkII.  One of these days, I'll pick one up for no good reason.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/832911-REG/Tascam_DR100MKII_DR_100mkII_Portable_Linear.html

[monkfish]

I think I'm leaning more toward handheld (though the 40 and 100 seem a little big to be crotched?) and thus away from the 60D form factor. Also, I could use internal mics (like this Thurs night), and at this point I don't have a DSLR, for which the 60D seems particularly well suited.

I've been going back and forth between the DR-40 and 100mkII. I note that the latter also has digital S/PDIF in and I see that is a big ask around here - is that used in the field somehow (patching?) or is it mainly for home recording out of a HT rig or something?

I kinda like the ability to do XY or AB on the DR-40 but the fixed mics are not a deal-breaker for the 100 as I'd be getting external mics before too long anyway. And I realize the DR-40 isn't truly 4-track so I'm not getting hung up on that, though I suppose there could be situations where it would be nice to be able to record room ambience along with a SBD feed. And dual recording functionality on the DR-40 seems like potentially helpful redundancy while the 100 doesn't have that, but I think I can live with the tradeoffs.

Decisions, decisions.

I see it's a matter of both learning the capabilities of different pieces of equipment and refining what my requirements  likely will be, at least for starters. I appreciate everyone's thoughts (including the DI info).

[2manyrocks]

The digital s/pdif in allows you to record from a nice external preamp that sends that kind of signal. 

Tascam has managed to piece meal features among these recorders to the point that I get what you mean by decisions, decisions. 

I just brought up the 60d because it would allow you to record off the soundboard and also have two external mics for true 4 channel recording. 

The new Dr70d is more compact than the 60d, but with true 4 channel XLR recording capability for $299.

There are a couple of nice sets of mics in the yard sale right now (AT853's and Countryman B3s) at pretty good prices. 

[monkfish]

All things considered I wanted to stick to budget of ~$200 for the recorder - I also needed to buy a DI*, batteries and bigger SDHC - so the 70D was out.

After looking up direct comps and individual reviews, reviewing specs, etc I decided I definitely wanted ... a hybrid of the DR-40 and DR-100mkII

I wound up pulling the trigger on the 40. In case this helps anyone else going through the same decision-making process, these were the main pros and cons I weighed for each, given my purposes:

- Biggest negative I came across with the 40 is that with a button instead of the 100's thumbwheel, input gain control changes apparently are audible on the recording when using the internal mics - though not if using externals, which I plan to go to before I pull anything serious, so I think I can live with that.

- lesser pres in the 40, but I'll mostly be recording loud music so I suspect that won't be much of an issue.

- 4-channel/ability to in effect record a matrix on the fly (the 40) was pretty appealing. Also, for any situations where I would be relying on the internal mics (like the night after tomorrow) I prefer being able to adjust their position (the 40).

- dual recording mode (40) sounds like nice redundancy.

- I'd prefer the rechargeable lithium-ion battery in the 100 & how it's hot-swappable with AAs, and 3 (not 2, not 4) AAs in the 40 seems, well, odd ... but I bought a 4-pack of 2550 mAh Eneloops with a charger so I'm pretty confident I'll always have exactly one more long-lived battery than I need ... I'll try those out with phantom power and then decide whether to spring for a battery pack too.

- I decided s/pdif was lower priority, as I'd likely only use it if I were recording from my HT. And not sure I'd ever use the 100's 1/8" TRS input.

- would the XLR/TRS combo connector on the 40 give me more flexibility for a board feed than the 100 with straight XLR? (A couple cables/adapters I wouldn't need to buy/carry?)

- things that didn't matter either way: Greater reliance on menus in the 40 vs buttons in the 100; the omnis as well as cards in the 100; and ability to independently control gain of the XLR inputs in the 40 - initially I was alarmed that that might not be possible, per numerous early reviews, but Tascam fixed that in a firmware upgrade a couple years ago.

If I screwed anything up here, go gentle on me ... and thanks again!


* btw B&H has the Whirlwind iMP2 for $40 vs $50 at Sweetwater

[acidjack]

All things considered I wanted to stick to budget of ~$200 for the recorder - I also needed to buy a DI*, batteries and bigger SDHC - so the 70D was out.

After looking up direct comps and individual reviews, reviewing specs, etc I decided I definitely wanted ... a hybrid of the DR-40 and DR-100mkII

I wound up pulling the trigger on the 40. In case this helps anyone else going through the same decision-making process, these were the main pros and cons I weighed for each, given my purposes:

- Biggest negative I came across with the 40 is that with a button instead of the 100's thumbwheel, input gain control changes apparently are audible on the recording when using the internal mics - though not if using externals, which I plan to go to before I pull anything serious, so I think I can live with that.

- lesser pres in the 40, but I'll mostly be recording loud music so I suspect that won't be much of an issue.

- 4-channel/ability to in effect record a matrix on the fly (the 40) was pretty appealing. Also, for any situations where I would be relying on the internal mics (like the night after tomorrow) I prefer being able to adjust their position (the 40).

- dual recording mode (40) sounds like nice redundancy.

- I'd prefer the rechargeable lithium-ion battery in the 100 & how it's hot-swappable with AAs, and 3 (not 2, not 4) AAs in the 40 seems, well, odd ... but I bought a 4-pack of 2550 mAh Eneloops with a charger so I'm pretty confident I'll always have exactly one more long-lived battery than I need ... I'll try those out with phantom power and then decide whether to spring for a battery pack too.

- I decided s/pdif was lower priority, as I'd likely only use it if I were recording from my HT. And not sure I'd ever use the 100's 1/8" TRS input.

- would the XLR/TRS combo connector on the 40 give me more flexibility for a board feed than the 100 with straight XLR? (A couple cables/adapters I wouldn't need to buy/carry?)

- things that didn't matter either way: Greater reliance on menus in the 40 vs buttons in the 100; the omnis as well as cards in the 100; and ability to independently control gain of the XLR inputs in the 40 - initially I was alarmed that that might not be possible, per numerous early reviews, but Tascam fixed that in a firmware upgrade a couple years ago.

If I screwed anything up here, go gentle on me ... and thanks again!


* btw B&H has the Whirlwind iMP2 for $40 vs $50 at Sweetwater

I used the DR-40 for a while and I think it should be fine for your needs. I would NOT rather have the confusing and likely-to-fail battery system of the DR-100-- with Tascam, simpler is always better, despite that the company cannot ever really seem to do anything that way.

The only issue I ran into with the DR-40, besides Tascam's usual confusing menus and "features" that don't do anything, was that it seems to have a pretty high gain on the preamps-- you may well need that dual recording feature, or better yet, just get some inline attenuators to lower the signal going into the deck. music@naiant.com can set you up with a simple attenuator set of cables. 

The XLR/TRS combo inputs on the -40 are irrelevant to its flexibility for a board feed -- the issue is what goes INTO the board, not what comes out. For board feeds, get one pair of XLR cables, then get the following adapters:

RCA M>XLR M
1/4" M>XLR M

That will do you. Then you just carry one set of cables and those two short adapter cables. You can maybe get away with just buying cheap adapters, but I find there isn't much real estate on boards and those adapters can be too large to be inserted side-by-side.

I don't recall the DR-40 being "four channel" but maybe you can run internals + the analog inputs? 

Anyway, especially if you are using phantom-powered mics, the DR-40 is a low cost solution that should work.

[monkfish]

Very helpful but now of course I have more questions, some of which I'm not even going to ask now as I really should be getting to bed ...

The only issue I ran into with the DR-40, besides Tascam's usual confusing menus and "features" that don't do anything, was that it seems to have a pretty high gain on the preamps-- you may well need that dual recording feature, or better yet, just get some inline attenuators to lower the signal going into the deck. music@naiant.com can set you up with a simple attenuator set of cables. 

I see those on his website. I'd think there'd be no way to attenuate the signal from the internal mics, right? (aside from falling back to dual record)

For board feeds, get one pair of XLR cables, then get the following adapters:

(snip)

Belatedly I've found and am wrapping my brain around this old thread with detail on sbd patches: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=14253.0 ... Seems attenuators would be prudent for a board feed, no? And Chris Church's point about polarity has me thinking about potential further implications for my matrix idea.

I don't recall the DR-40 being "four channel" but maybe you can run internals + the analog inputs?

Yep, that's my understanding.
 
Two other quick questions to which I'm not quickly finding answers in searching these forums:

As I've started assessing mic options I see setups like at http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=170879.0 that use phantom adapters. Since the DR-40 has phantom power built in, are those adapters necessary, or maybe at worst redundant; or would a mic system wired with phantom adapters not work with the DR-40's internal phantom power?

And now I'm finding a bunch of mini-mic setups that are 1/8" terminated (so much for my determination yesterday that I'd probably never have use for a 1/8" input ...). I see adapters like http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-XLRM-MINI-2, 1/8 F > 2 XLR M. Any reason this would not work with the DR-40? In looking at darktrain's photo in the link in the previous paragraph am I correct that that 1/8" termination is TRS and thus a balanced output?

I appreciate everyone's patience with my noob questions ...

[acidjack]

^ nope, can't attenuate internal mics. And they may well overload -- internals aren't that useful for a lot of situations, hence the many recordings with internals on DIME that are badly overloaded. But I have recorded with them onstage once, and they did a fine job.

Are the mics you're buying plug-in power (9V) or phantom power?  If you need 9V then either:

1. Turn off the 48V phantom power from the deck and go mics>battery box>deck with a mini plug (F)>dual XLR (M) adapter.
2. Get a PFA that is mini plug (F)>dual XLR (M) and turn on the deck's 48V phantom power. I'd probably do this as it's one less box. PFAs can be obtained from music@naiant.com or others on here.

If your mics are 48V phantom power, then just plug them into the DR-40...

SBD attenuators - yeah, can't hurt. Generally if you're running SBD into line-level inputs (i.e., the inputs on your DR-40) it shouldn't be an issue.

[monkfish]

All right, got it now - thanks again.

The DR-40 arrived yesterday and I used it last night to record performances by my son and classmates at their h.s. Good practice using the menus, setting levels etc. and recording a pretty wide dynamic range (though nothing remotely approaching arena rock SPLs). I'll get external mics but the internals did great for this, particularly when I was sitting at the edge of an ensemble of 17 or 18 doing "Linus and Lucy" in a small new room designed for great acoustics ... Really looking forward to getting into this.

[acidjack]

Those internal mics are not totally horrible when aimed properly. The bigger issue is with them overloading.

For example, here are two recordings of the same dude. One with Schoeps + Soundboard, one with Tascam DR-40 internals in front of him.  The DR-40 does OK.

http://www.nyctaper.com/2012/09/william-tyler-september-6-and-7-2012-hopscotch-festival-2-performances-flac-mp3-streaming/

[bombdiggity]

^ Nice it worked out.  It's all about what you record, where it's played and where you are recording from.  Starting out something very versatile is the best approach unless you know you're always going to be in a specific situation that requires a more exotic approach.  Internal mics have a lot of limitations but some will do well in the circumstances they are best for.