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Author Topic: 4 mic mixes from the AUD  (Read 16985 times)

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Offline Chuck

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2007, 10:24:13 PM »
I've always thought two microphones is enough to record a PA system in the audience.

Now that four channel recording is becoming the norm, people are starting to experiment more. If you already have the 4 channel recorder bringing along an extra set of microphones just makes sense. I'm still not really sold on mixing the four channels together, but it does give you a bunch more options. So, the fact that we are seeing more 4 microphone recordings is not surprising.
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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2007, 10:50:14 PM »
Any sources out there where the sets of mics are really far apart...

Say - a stage pair...and a pair way back in the room?

So you have one really discrete, tight source - mixed with a diffused "color" source

Obviously these have to be brought into sync in post...


Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2007, 12:16:25 AM »
having 2 pairs of HQ mics and only one recorder does make me want to do 4-mic mixes in the future. BUT all of the work of setting up 4-mics/recordersa isnt too luring. id like to ahve another 722 just to have 2 killer sources of a particular show, just to see the differences of each source :) but I doubt I would matrix them together.....

too much work for me for sure, especially since my back has been f'd up :) thats another reason I got the mbho active setup. the weight/size of actives/722 is very nice! and saves my back at the same time. and sounds great!
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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2007, 12:51:50 PM »
Any sources out there where the sets of mics are really far apart...

Say - a stage pair...and a pair way back in the room?

So you have one really discrete, tight source - mixed with a diffused "color" source

Obviously these have to be brought into sync in post...

This is my favorite to do now when I have the chance. 

For example: http://www.archive.org/details/kd3-2007-07-11.akg452ck22-414.flac16

Offline live2496

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2007, 05:30:17 PM »
now you're talking.
:)

I've often thought of going B format and putting together an ambesonic playback room.  Tetrahydral speaker array...B format decoder..the works.
I hear it is quite surreal from those who have done it.  Jeff Silberman comes to mind.  I believe he either used to, or did have an ambesonic playback system for listening to his soundfiled masters.
I'll post that question to the ambesonic yahoo group.  see what comes of it.

thanks for all your input fellas.
I'll stick w/2 chan.  i'm cheap.
:)

I'm going to be modding the Live2496 software for the new 4MIC very soon. I've been studying up on ambisonics a bit over the last 8 months or so. At least trying to follow the sometime academic discussions on sursound.

Ambisonics seems the way to go because the capsules are placed close together. That way you don't have phase cancellation except at very high frequencies (ie. short wavelength). And this is why filtering is done to adjust for that.

Some samples are up on www.ambisonia.com which you can download with bitTorrent. Mostly classical and sound samples right now. For playback there is a free windows app called VVmic. You can listen to B-format files in stereo with that. Also, I have played with the java based player. And there are VST plugins.

It's all quite interesting. I hope to have some multi-speaker setup sometime to be able to do the playback. Apparently you can listen over 5.1 systems too.

<edit>
Here is the link for VVmic
http://mcgriffy.com/audio/ambisonic/vvmic/

Some info on playing back B-format files using 5.1 system.
http://www.ambisonia.com/wiki/index.php/Playing_DTS_files_on_5.1_Home_Theatre_systems
</edit>
 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 09:46:15 PM by live2496 »
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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2007, 07:12:28 PM »
there are several software packages for doing surround mixes from B format.  Soundfield sells one w/their stuff.

How much fun would that be...
do have a really nice DAW/moniter setup ...record in B format and then mix everything down in post to whatever width / polar pattern / # of channels (up to 7.1 i believe) after the fact.

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2007, 12:02:03 AM »
there are several software packages for doing surround mixes from B format.  Soundfield sells one w/their stuff.

How much fun would that be...
do have a really nice DAW/moniter setup ...record in B format and then mix everything down in post to whatever width / polar pattern / # of channels (up to 7.1 i believe) after the fact.


WAY too much work for a hobby IMO :) And im with you Nick, if you cant pull a sick tape with two mics, then 4 may be a waste of time/money ;D I do like the idea of having 2 diff sources, but the 744 doesnt have 4 mic pre's so............ :'( That would be killer. 483>744 and mbho>744, all with 7xx preamps. I also like the diea of running like 483>722 and mbho>acm/busman 671, for the backup purpose alone, but whats the point of running a backup when one has professional gear, ya dig?

I always liked the idea, but im too lazy andf my back is in too much pain, for a 4-mic mix. now SBD/DAUD is another story tho ;)
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Offline wbrisette

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2007, 05:31:12 AM »
I was doing 4 mic mixes long before most people here. Here is a show from 4.5 years ago that really is still one of my favorites:
http://www.archive.org/details/BHTM2003-02-14.shnf

The thing is people think more mics better sound, but that's not always the case. In fact I've never understood people using 2 cards and 2 hypers, or 4 cards. I've always used my "helicopter" as some people use to call it where I had the QTC-1 omnis spread 1 metre and had the SR-77's in the center of that. There was no work required in post, because I used the Wendt X4 field mixer to do everything right there and at the time only had the Tascam DA-P1 DAT recorder. Today with all my 8 channel recordings, I sometimes wish it was as easy as tossing up some mics and pressing record on the Tascam.  :)

It is one of those things where there are reasons to do it and I think they (4 mic mixes) can sound better, but you have to use the right combination of mics and the right configuration with the mics.

Wayne
Mics: Earthworks SR-77 (MP), QTC-1 (MP)

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Offline cfox

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2007, 12:24:31 PM »

why in the world do you folks use 4 mic mixes from the audience?  not impressed, at all. 


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Offline grider

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2007, 12:34:32 PM »
Any sources out there where the sets of mics are really far apart...

Say - a stage pair...and a pair way back in the room?

So you have one really discrete, tight source - mixed with a diffused "color" source

Obviously these have to be brought into sync in post...



STS9 show I referred to earlier in the thread has the pair on the outside spread about thirty feet

Offline db

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2007, 12:37:01 PM »
I also record a lot with SonicSound since he's in my area and what I've heard has been great - sometimes better than what I do with my 2-ch setup.  I think what the 4 mic mixes can give you is flexibility to shape the overall pickup pattern. 

and don't forget the other *plus*: the gear-bag is nice and heavy.
db

Offline Josephine

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2007, 01:00:06 PM »
It is not on LMA, and I did not circulate the individual sources, but I think a 4 mic mix I circulated from Los Lobos 2/8/07 fits this category.

I was at the SBD, and ran 414s (mid-side)/SD MP2 + 451s (DIN)/MOTU Ultralite.  The 414s source sounded better on its own than the 451s, but did not have the crispness/clarity in the high end.  The 451s alone, however, lacked the punch, full low end, and warmth of the 414s.  Together, the mix was a lot better than either individual pair.

Where I believe a lot of 4 mic AUD sources are lacking is a poor combination of sources/gear.  If on the same stand, I believe the center pair should be coincident - either M/S or XY - and the flanking pair should have sufficiently different and complimentary sonic characteristics that it is worthwhile to put in the extra effort. 

I have not liked the sound of many 4 mic near-coincident x2 sources (ORTF/DIN/NOS), which seemed 'muddy' or 'soupy' sounding to me and often seemed out of phase.  The jury is still out for me on split omni + near coincident, though I like split omni + coincident.



As soon as I read Nick's initial post, James' Los Lobos recording came to mind.  Incredible recording. 
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Offline kgreener

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2007, 01:17:25 PM »
fwiw I was picking Doug's brain about the R4 and 4-mic mixes a couple months ago and below is his response, which is very much along the same line of thinking as items previously mentioned by Wayne, Shawn, easyjim, 'sauce, etc:


Yes, it can be done with a few techniques and a lot of effort in setup and mixing.  90° hypers X-Y with 8 foot spread omnis, about 20dB down is one of a very few good techniques, but only if you can get good alignment. That is the trouble. Almost all 4 mic mixes destroy transient response, sounding somehow dull or lifeless at their very best. It also causes massive image smear in most cases. Selecting the right set of polar patterns, spacing and angles can make it possible to mix an omni or pair of omnis without severe degradation. I have never heard 4 directional mics mixed that was anything other than bad. It must be a main pair with omni flanking mics to open up the sound and flesh out the low end. I can do a TMOD Concert that will max out the R4 for use as a 4 mic unit (i.e no int mics and no pad but it will take a +14dB signal via the XLRs) if the demand is there or even by special request. These folks probably have low end to mid range systems that cannot recreate the recorded space accurately and hence listen only for flavors which does change with more mics but accurate 3D space reproduction suffers dramatically....peace...Doug

Offline momule

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2007, 01:30:38 PM »
This was recorded with Studio Projects B3's (LD) & Studio Projects C4's (both were Mic's > phatcables > R4)

Here is the LD source
Here is the SD source

Here is the 4 mic mixed in post via wavelab.   

To be fair the 4 mic mix has been mastered but I think you can still get an Idea. 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 01:35:31 PM by momule »
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Offline nic

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2007, 02:25:42 PM »
http://www.archive.org/details/lt2003-01-22shnf

this is my favorite 4 mic mix that I have created.
there was no PA, so everything, including the limited vocals, were going through guitar amps onstage. (no drums obviously)

10' DFC from stage: AKG 391(ortf) + [MG m200(x/y)> PS2> AD20]> MOTU828> DP3
stage layout
keyboards----------------drums
guitar-----guitar/vox------bass

the recording has a very nice wide soundstage and you can place all instruments clearly!   ;D


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