Topic: AKG 460 shootout - stock vs JW mods

[spyder9]

after hearing the 15 second back to back samples i've lost interest in knowing which is the stock mic and which is the modded mic.  the mics sound so similar, it doesn't really matter which one is modded.  the mod seems like a lot of money for for not a lot of benefit (if any).  i think you should just spill the beans.  it's been 2 weeks.   

I can't agree with you Trent.  ck1's cannibalize the bodies when it comes to sound.  You probably won't hear the difference.  ck1's are amazingly underrated caps.
 

That said, check out this shootout done by Matt (thegreatgumbino) from 6 years ago.   He used ck61 & ck63 caps.   There is definitely a difference between a modded and unmodded 460 bodies.  And 480's for that matter.

http://archive.org/details/akg_480-460-JW460_comparison

original TS threads on the comp

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=52183.msg679735#msg679735

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=48167.0



Tim, please upload your comp to LMA like Matt did.  It would be great for future reference, since your's are with the ck1's.  Greatly appreciate your time for doing this comp. 

[alpine85]

I emailed Doug Oade and got this reply:

Hi Tim, some of that is possibly a hold over from the original Edirol 4 channel box, the R4*. In the R44, there is a tiny bit of digital display noise that is a bit stronger in channels 1&2 than in 3&4 but it's not significant or even audible with high output mics recording a PA system. There is no doubt in my  mind the test is a valid one and the results will be the same were you to switch the channels used for the mic comparison.
BTW, thanks for the positive feedback !
I hope this helps....Doug

.

* here is that info on the R4:
Due to the circuit board layout the R4 Concert upgrade is optimized for microphones on channels 3 and 4 while 1 and 2 are tweaked for a line level (recording console or soundboard) source or a secondary mic pair (4 mic mix). A 4 microphone recording works best with the primary coincident directional mic pair( i.e. 90° X-Y hypercardioids) on channels 3 and 4 with a secondary or flanking pair of omnidirectional mics on channels 1 and 2. 4 directional mic mixes are not recommended. 3 microphone mixes should use channels 3 and 4 as a primary pair and channel 1 or 2 as the center mic. The use of an omni center channel, aligned with the coincident primary pair typically produces the best results for 3 mic mixes.

So there ya go!  Sounds like there was an issue with the inputs being different on the R-4, but on the R-44 it's negligible. 

I'm thinking if there was any unfairness to this comp, it may have been one of these factors:

1) The 16" distance between the mic pairs.   I'm starting to think the "rear" mics picked up slightly more of the PA and room sound and may have actually benefited from that

2) The "within ~0.5 dB" difference in levels.  I thought that would be a close enough tolerance, but now I'm wondering if that's just enough level difference to give a perceptible boost to one over the other, and we all know that louder is better when it comes to comps, right?

[alpine85]

after hearing the 15 second back to back samples i've lost interest in knowing which is the stock mic and which is the modded mic.  the mics sound so similar, it doesn't really matter which one is modded.  the mod seems like a lot of money for for not a lot of benefit (if any).  i think you should just spill the beans.  it's been 2 weeks.   

I can't agree with you Trent.  ck1's cannibalize the bodies when it comes to sound.  You probably won't hear the difference.  ck1's are amazingly underrated caps.
 

That said, check out this shootout done by Matt (thegreatgumbino) from 6 years ago.   He used ck61 & ck63 caps.   There is definitely a difference between a modded and unmodded 460 bodies.  And 480's for that matter.

http://archive.org/details/akg_480-460-JW460_comparison

original TS threads on the comp

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=52183.msg679735#msg679735

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=48167.0



Tim, please upload your comp to LMA like Matt did.  It would be great for future reference, since your's are with the ck1's.  Greatly appreciate your time for doing this comp.

Thanks Dan.  Interesting thoughts on the CK1 caps!

I checked out that comp by thegreatgumbino with great interest back when I was starting out in "Team AKG".   It's useful to a point, but I was never really able to draw any conclusions from it... maybe because it's recording a studio track on a home stereo.  I dunno...  all I know is that personally I learned more by just listening to shows on LMA. 

Good idea about uploading to LMA!

[alpine85]

Speaking of comps and hypers...

Does anyone remember the AKG/Gefell hypercard comp that was done a few years back?  It was from a YMSB show. 

I listened to those on a few different systems, took some notes, etc, but I don't remember the results ever being posted.

Anyone know if they were?

[Gutbucket]

I emailed Doug Oade and got this reply:

[snip] A 4 microphone recording works best with the primary coincident directional mic pair( i.e. 90° X-Y hypercardioids) on channels 3 and 4 with a secondary or flanking pair of omnidirectional mics on channels 1 and 2. 4 directional mic mixes are not recommended. 3 microphone mixes should use channels 3 and 4 as a primary pair and channel 1 or 2 as the center mic. The use of an omni center channel, aligned with the coincident primary pair typically produces the best results for 3 mic mixes.

OT, but I totally agree with Doug there!  Should've been included in the recent 4 channels? thread discussing 3 & 4 channel setups.  Maybe I should re-post that quote over there.

[cashandkerouac]

after hearing the 15 second back to back samples i've lost interest in knowing which is the stock mic and which is the modded mic.  the mics sound so similar, it doesn't really matter which one is modded.  the mod seems like a lot of money for for not a lot of benefit (if any).  i think you should just spill the beans.  it's been 2 weeks.   

I can't agree with you Trent.  ck1's cannibalize the bodies when it comes to sound.  You probably won't hear the difference.  ck1's are amazingly underrated caps.
 

That said, check out this shootout done by Matt (thegreatgumbino) from 6 years ago.   He used ck61 & ck63 caps.   There is definitely a difference between a modded and unmodded 460 bodies.  And 480's for that matter.

http://archive.org/details/akg_480-460-JW460_comparison

original TS threads on the comp

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=52183.msg679735#msg679735

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=48167.0



Tim, please upload your comp to LMA like Matt did.  It would be great for future reference, since your's are with the ck1's.  Greatly appreciate your time for doing this comp.

many thanks for the info.  i'd be curious to check out that comparison with the ck61 & ck63 caps. 

and i actually am interested to know the results of this current 460 shootout.  i'm just not on the edge of my seat after hearing the 15-second back-to-back clips.  when alpine decides to let us know the results i'll be back to read about it.  thanks.   

[Todd R]

Speaking of comps and hypers...

Does anyone remember the AKG/Gefell hypercard comp that was done a few years back?  It was from a YMSB show. 

I listened to those on a few different systems, took some notes, etc, but I don't remember the results ever being posted.

Anyone know if they were?

I think that was my comp you're talking about.  I'm pretty sure I at least replied privately to folks that posted their impressions or pm'd me (I usually do), but don't know that I publicly revealed the results.  I'd have to check on my home computer whether I have any info left on that comp.

[alpine85]

Speaking of comps and hypers...

Does anyone remember the AKG/Gefell hypercard comp that was done a few years back?  It was from a YMSB show. 

I listened to those on a few different systems, took some notes, etc, but I don't remember the results ever being posted.

Anyone know if they were?

I think that was my comp you're talking about.  I'm pretty sure I at least replied privately to folks that posted their impressions or pm'd me (I usually do), but don't know that I publicly revealed the results.  I'd have to check on my home computer whether I have any info left on that comp.

Cool... thanks Todd!  If you can find those results I'd love to see 'em.  I'll search for my notes too.

[cashandkerouac]

it's been more than a month since this shootout was posted.  sure would be nice to see some discussion about the results.

[newplanet7]

ck1's are amazingly underrated caps.

Paired with the a60m/460's  these are one of my favorite card mics.

That said, check out this shootout done by Matt (thegreatgumbino) from 6 years ago.   He used ck61 & ck63 caps.   There is definitely a difference between a modded and unmodded 460 bodies.  And 480's for that matter.
http://archive.org/details/akg_480-460-JW460_comparison

There IS/WAS also  comp done on tapers.org that was just like this.
Anyone know if it's the same one? I haven't visited that site in forever though.

it's been more than a month since this shootout was posted.  sure would be nice to see some discussion about the results.

I agree. SPILL IT HOMESLICE!!! 

[Gutbucket]

good thing I posted, I've forgotten which i prefered and needed reminding!

[alpine85]

OK fellas...

Spoiler alert:  if you haven't listened or voted yet, stop reading now...

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Mic 1 is the JW Mod 460

Mic 2 is the Stock 460


discuss...

[newplanet7]

OK fellas...
Mic 1 is the JW Mod 460

Mic 2 is the Stock 460
discuss...

++++++++++

Thanks for the clips. I will offer my guess.
Mic 1 is brighter and more harsh on the highs. I like mic 2 and think it is the stock 460's.
I used to run 460/a60m/ck1 also. Loved them!!!!!!

Word to the mutha effin' herd!!!!!!!!!!
Kinda proud of myself. Ran the 460/a60m/ck1's for 3+yrs.

[cashandkerouac]

this was a tough one to figure out.  i was totally stumped and like the sound of the stock and modded 460.  both recordings sound very similar to my ears.  as stated by someone else (spyder i believe), there may have been a more noticable contrast between mod and stock 460 using different caps, but with the CK1 caps i didn't hear much of a difference.   

[alpine85]

Word to the mutha effin' herd!!!!!!!!!!
Kinda proud of myself. Ran the 460/a60m/ck1's for 3+yrs.

Ha!  Good ears!  I guess that sound from that combo made quite an impression  : )

Thanks for the clips. I will offer my guess.
Mic 1 is brighter and more harsh on the highs.  I like mic 2 and think it is the stock 460's.

I was really impressed by the sound of the Stock 460s in this comp.   Like I said before, it was really surprising how similar they sounded.  I really expected there to be more of a dramatic difference.   Interesting that the majority preferred #2 AND the majority also thought #2 was the mod!

I still prefer the mods, not necessarily based on this test, but based on a LOT of listening to shows on the Archive before I decided to do the mod, and based on my experience with both versions since.

Overall, I would describe the 2 this way: 

MODS: 
PROS: Slightly more detail and transparency (if you listen closely you can hear this in the decay in cymbals & toms,  punchier bass, pluck of strings, and just in the overall "air")
CONS:  Can sound overly bright sometimes, slight harshness in mids & highs, especially on certain playback systems


STOCK:
PROS:  Nice overall tone, silky smoothness and nice fat, round bass, while still providing a nice amount of detail.  A slightly colored sound, but in a good way
CONS:  Not quite as much detail  (example: cymbals can sound kind of "squishy", bass can sound a little loose and boomy)

Overall, to oversimplify I would say the stock 460s have more of a "classic" sound (probably due to the transformer mostly?), while the mods have more of a "modern" transparent sound.  YMMV, of course (and obviously it does!)

Here are a few things I took away from this comp:

- The playback system made a big difference when comparing these mics.  When I listened on my near field monitors (Alesis Monitor One Mk2 - very detailed & bright sounding), I actually preferred the Stock, mostly just based on the overall tone (some unpleasant harshness in the modded ones, while the stock sounded real smooth).  When I listened with the diffuse-field headphones (AKG 240DF) or on my main playback system (Yamaha integrated amp w/ PSB Speakers) which are a bit mellower and have MUCH better imaging, I preferred the Mods.  (side note:  Aside from just subjective personal preferences, I'm thinking maybe that's why some people describe the highs in the Mods as "harsh" or "brittle", while others describe them as "detailed" or "lively")

- The Oade R-44 might be a better match for less bright sounding mics.   I had never heard until now that the Oade mod might add some brightness - I've always thought it was just designed to add transparency and detail, and lower the noise, but some of you have suggested that there is a brightness factor as well.   I had never really considered this, because I've always been pretty happy with my OCM R-44 recordings,  but it might be a factor and may be why the Mods had some extra brightness and why so many preferred the Stock.  Something to think about.   It would be interesting to see this comp repeated with a stock R-44 or 744 or something.

I used to run 460/a60m/ck1 also. Loved them!!!!!!

I remember listening to a LOT of your 460/ck1 recordings... they definitely helped sway me when I made the decision to go the AKG route.