Topic: Omnis vs cards outdoors

[Church-Audio]

That's a very good summary, Gutbucket.

I will add two things. First, according to Shure customer support (here), the A81WS is only 2-3dB down at 20kHz and roll-off starts above 10kHz, which isn't very much. I wish they had better published specs, but my ears tend to agree with this information. They are excellent windscreens.

Second, making proper windscreens is very much a science and, although I know many users on this forum might disagree, I tend to avoid homemade 'rats' and fuzzy things. While they might be cost-effective and provide some amount of utility, their effect on frequency response is a complete mystery and there is most certainly no science or controlled testing behind their design. A windscreen like the Shure A81WS has two layers of differing density foams and was designed through testing and careful engineering. I also don't think they're very expensive, considering just how effective they really are, but ymmv.

Actually I frequency response tested my rats. Before and after was about a 2 db difference. In HF frequency response. We do not use any seams in our rats.

[cashandkerouac]

Good points by hi and lo.  I actually use the A81WS for minor EQ compensation on a pair cardioids in situations which don't require wind protection but where the normal response of those mics would be a touch bright without them.  I could EQ it, but the relatively minor high frequency cut provided by the screens is just about right, and they also provide good physical protection for the mics at the same time. 

When I finally picked up a pair of the Shures I stopped thinking about better windscreens for the mics I have which fit in them.

And Chuck makes a good point about wind-blown sound problems, what some call 'wind-phasing'.  It’s caused by the wind physically modulating the compression/rarefaction waves of the air that make up the moving sound waves. The only way to combat that is to move closer, so there is less opportunity for wind to blow the air around between the source and the mics.

great point Gutbucket.  good windscreens in a bad location won't make a hill of beans difference if the sound is blowing all over the place.  proximity to the sound source becomes more critical as the intensity of wind increases.

[Church-Audio]

If it's windy, windscreens and dead rats will do nothing to help you while running  cards.

Sorry you haven't had a better experience with running in the wind, but this generalization is dead wrong. With the right windscreens and/or rats, you will absolutely be protected from all but the most severe of wind gusts and there are thousands of tapes out there to prove it.

I beg to differ.  In the case of the CA-14's I was running (with built-in windscreens) and the dead rats from TBrown, I as at an extremely flat fairground and a thunderstorm was approaching; the wind was pretty severe (gusting to 30km/h) and trashed the recording.  When my buddy has run AKG CK61's with stock windscreens, he's been hit very minorly so I agree with what you're saying but the little mics just can't handle the wind as well as bigger ones (and this is from repeated experience).

Those are indoor windscreens and OP did not specify mics he was using. Making inaccurate generalizations about the effectiveness of windscreens/rats based on your experience with CA miniature mics and stock AKG windscreens presents a picture that simply isn't true. Furthermore, diaphragm size of the microphone has very little to do with their resistance/tolerance of wind noise and has everything to due with he fact that there are (probably) no good heavy duty windscreens properly sized and available for 6-10 mm microphones. When you are using 20-21mm microphones, the options include Shure A81-WS and the DPA screens (among others), both of which provide excellent protection in even strong winds.

I agree 100% size does not matter when we are talking wind protection / rejection. What does matter is location and direction of the wind. Also frequency response of lack of it plays a role in how much wind will get picked up. I don't know about other dead rats out there but my dead rats work very well. Again I feel its because I did take the time to test various fabrics before I decided on one. And testing using my DPA 4007 on various situations with a wind gauge helped. But the biggest help was the fact that my wife is a professional costume designer

[Gutbucket]

Nice, thanks for the test data Chris!

How does your wife make them witout seams?  Gathered at the back?

[Chuck]

Chris, why don't you promote your products more?

I had no idea you sold dead rats.

[Church-Audio]

Chris, why don't you promote your products more?

I had no idea you sold dead rats.

Only for my mics.. I am still trying to get my website up! never mind promote my gear. I have to turn down sales to slow down business so I can build stuff faster. I guess its a nice problem to have

[Church-Audio]

Nice, thanks for the test data Chris!

How does your wife make them witout seams?  Gathered at the back?

Don't ask me how she does it I just asked her if she could and she figured it out lol. But it does make a difference with the seams the frequency response was effected and not in a good way also the polar pattern. Dont have test data anymore to show that as I deleted it because I felt I did not need it for advertising. But that big seam is not acoustically transparent.

[AndyLGR]

Some great responses thanks. Basically I will be taping stealth this weekend outdoors, using sp-CMC-4u mics that only have their standard small windscreens. So other than praying for no windy conditions, is there anything I can do?

[F.O.Bean]

If it's windy, windscreens and dead rats will do nothing to help you while running  cards.

Sorry you haven't had a better experience with running in the wind, but this generalization is dead wrong. With the right windscreens and/or rats, you will absolutely be protected from all but the most severe of wind gusts and there are thousands of tapes out there to prove it.

100% agreed? Bigass shures do a great job of wind isolation and that's at the cheap end of screens.

[taperjeff]

good discussion here.  A fellow taper from the Grateful Dead days gave me a tip that worked well and thought to pass along.  With the Shure A81WS,  if you leave a one inch head room between the mic capsule and screen, you'll prevent more windnoise.  Used this tip faithfully for years and never had problems with the high winds at Red Rocks or other experiences.  During a quick set up, forgot this tip and got a bunch of windnoise still with the A81WS.   

[Church-Audio]

Some great responses thanks. Basically I will be taping stealth this weekend outdoors, using sp-CMC-4u mics that only have their standard small windscreens. So other than praying for no windy conditions, is there anything I can do?

Yeah you can use a sock made with cotton and or nylons. Again thicker is better for wind by not generally speaking for sound. You can make cubes out of hangers and stretch nylons over it, very sexy lol. Put the mics inside. Do two layers an inside and outside if you want to block lots of wind.

[Gutbucket]

Nice, thanks for the test data Chris!

How does your wife make them witout seams?  Gathered at the back?

Don't ask me how she does it I just asked her if she could and she figured it out lol. But it does make a difference with the seams the frequency response was effected and not in a good way also the polar pattern. Dont have test data anymore to show that as I deleted it because I felt I did not need it for advertising. But that big seam is not acoustically transparent.

Yeah, I think with the rats it's all the implementation details that effect things as much as the basic idea- the density of the fabric backing, the properties of the fur, how it's shaped and secured.

Hold onto that plot you posted above, which may be most valuable on your website by simply establishing your thorough professional approach even more than clearly showing the minimal effect on response. It clearly differentiates Church Audio.  What othe company offering wind protection gear shows response graphs for them?

I feel for you on the website thing, we've been working on and off for years on revamping my company's site which has been unchanged for the most part for the past decade.. still almost there.

[hi and lo]

Actually I frequency response tested my rats. Before and after was about a 2 db difference. In HF frequency response. We do not use any seams in our rats.

I didn't even know you sold rats. As others have pointed out, you get an A+ for providing this data.

[F.O.Bean]

Actually I frequency response tested my rats. Before and after was about a 2 db difference. In HF frequency response. We do not use any seams in our rats.

I didn't even know you sold rats. As others have pointed out, you get an A+ for providing this data.

Actually I frequency response tested my rats. Before and after was about a 2 db difference. In HF frequency response. We do not use any seams in our rats.

I didn't even know you sold rats. As others have pointed out, you get an A+ for providing this data.

When I run ca14s outdoors, I use bigass shures. They work great. I don't hear any wind noise or phasing on ANY of my Summer Camp recordings

[Gutbucket]

Some great responses thanks. Basically I will be taping stealth this weekend outdoors, using sp-CMC-4u mics that only have their standard small windscreens. So other than praying for no windy conditions, is there anything I can do?

Grow a big 'fro!    Or pop on the appropriate stealther wig in a style appropriate to the music.-







Possibly the best for our purposes-


Abnormally excessive ear-hair could work well as binaural fuzzies. 

Seriously, wind slows down close to a boundary so if you are wearing the mics and have them mounted in close proximity to a surface (part of your body in this case) they're likely to be somewhat more protected than mics up on a pole in free-space.   If you mount them under any sort of fabric or something as your nomal stealth setup that will trap air and form a natural windscreen as well.  Even if you are taping with a short stand, the wind and it's buffeting is likely to be less severe with the mics at or below head height as opposed to 8-12' up in the air.