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Author Topic: Lense Question for Canon Digital Rebel  (Read 6154 times)

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Offline hogan20a

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Lense Question for Canon Digital Rebel
« on: December 08, 2004, 11:07:25 AM »
I bought a Digital Rebel and I am looking for a good zoom/telephoto lense that will work well for shooting concerts.  I'm new to photography and there are so many to choose from, so any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Adam

jpschust

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Re: Lense Question for Canon Digital Rebel
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2004, 11:10:48 AM »
what is your budget on this?

btw, you may end up doing better for yourself on a prime rather than a zoom.

Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Lense Question for Canon Digital Rebel
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2004, 11:15:24 AM »
how far away do you plan to shoot?  the 50mm/f1.4 ($300), 50mm/f1.8 ($70), 85/f1.8 (~$300), 100/f2 ($300) would be good bets.  i think the 50mm/1.8 and 85mm/1.8 would be a great combo for under $400. 

zooms will be much more expensive.

Offline MattD

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Re: Lense Question for Canon Digital Rebel
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2004, 11:21:05 AM »
I'll assume you're in super-low budget mode unless you post otherwise and recommend the 50mm f/1.8 II. $75 or less. More money gets you faster glass (f/1.4), or more versatility (zoom).

Edit: Do the three of us answer every Canon question here?
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Offline hogan20a

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Re: Lense Question for Canon Digital Rebel
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2004, 11:25:38 AM »
Well I don't have an exact budget, probably $500 or less (I'd like to do $300 or less, but I'm open to suggestions).  I have a 35mm camera with a 75-300mm lense which I really like, so I'd love something similar to that if possible for my budget.

Thanks,
Adam

Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Lense Question for Canon Digital Rebel
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2004, 11:29:34 AM »
adam, at that range, it will be extremely difficult to come in under $500 for a zoom.  bear in mind that your rebel has a 1.6x crop factor, so the 85 will be the rough equivalent of a 135 on a 35mm camera.  the 100mm will be 160mm.

if you have to go zoom, your best bet is likely the sigma 70-200/f2.8 at around $700, I believe.  that will give you 110mm-320mm equivalent on a 1.6x crop camera like the rebel.  however, i believe that at f2.8, it is a bit soft.  I still think primes are your best bet.

the 200/f2.8 at around $550 may work, but that is awfully long for your only option.  also, at that focal length, you will have to shoot at around 1/200 second to avoid camera shake, which will require shooting exclusively at 1600 ISO in most concert environments which will bring in a lot of noise.

jpschust

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Re: Lense Question for Canon Digital Rebel
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2004, 11:43:23 AM »


Edit: Do the three of us answer every Canon question here?

yes.  and it always starts the same way- i ask budget, damon throws out some answers as do you, and then we discuss :)

Offline phanophish

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Re: Lense Question for Canon Digital Rebel
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2004, 07:46:37 PM »
I've got an older version of the Sigma 70-200 2.8 and it is OK for shooting from far away, but camera shake is a real problem when shooting without a tripod in low light conditions like concerts and I'd echo the sharpness issue regardless.  I'm looking hard at one of the shorter and faster primes like the 85/f1.8.  I think that is right in the sweet spot from shooting concerts provided you can get up close.  If not I'd make the jump to the 100/f2 for a bit of extra range.   
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Offline sickrick43

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Re: Lense Question for Canon Digital Rebel
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2004, 07:59:08 PM »


Edit: Do the three of us answer every Canon question here?

yes.  and it always starts the same way- i ask budget, damon throws out some answers as do you, and then we discuss :)

I stay out of these myself.  I guess I'm on the semi-unlimited budget plan...

Rick
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Offline hogan20a

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Re: Lense Question for Canon Digital Rebel
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2004, 10:30:18 PM »

Offline MattD

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Re: Lense Question for Canon Digital Rebel
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2004, 11:19:10 PM »
Too slow. Even wide open at ISO 1600 might not produce a single decent photo at a concert. I know in one of Damon's previous camera posts he talked about his settings and I've see some of what Rick's posted shots that he did with a f/2.8 lens. It leads me to believe that unless you wait for those moments of very bright stage light, f/2.8 is probably about as slow as you'd want to get. The suggestions Damon made were good ones.

If you're uncertain about it, get the 50 f/1.8 and try it out. See what you do and don't like about it. It's under $75 and a pretty damn good first lens, especially for that money.

Rick, I want your L glass budget plan!  8)
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Offline phanophish

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Re: Lense Question for Canon Digital Rebel
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2004, 11:59:20 PM »
That is the IS version of the lens which means it has electronic image stabilization which can make up quite a bit for the camera shake, but I've never used one for concert shots, but playing around with it at the camera store sure was cool.  Even with stab. you will get blur due to movement of the subjects playing.  This is probably a better choice for Concert stuff because of the lens speed.  Or like others have mentioned, pick up a 50 f1.8 for $75 for a start and see how it works with sneaker zoom.  Have a look at these photos of Particle from the Wakarusa Fest. http://www.liverecording.org/gallery/2004-Wakarusa-Fest Most were taken with a 70-300 f/4-5.6 non stabilized lens.  The blur and lack of sharpness in the low light photos is all because of camera shake, not poor focus, and I was resting the camera on a fence to steady it....

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Elwood: I traded it.
Jake: You traded the Blues Mobile for this?
Elwood: No. For a microphone.
Jake: A microphone? Okay I can see that.

Offline sickrick43

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Re: Lense Question for Canon Digital Rebel
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2004, 08:41:13 AM »


One of the things that DRebel (and 10/20D) shooter need to realize/decide is - are you ever going to move up to higher MP/Pro camera bodies?

If so, the cheeper consumer glass is going to leave you "wanting".  Just as there are differences between the $300 mic and the $2,000 one, so it goes with glass also.  My glass is well cared for (no dings, scratches, dirt, chipped paint, etc.) and I can recover close to 90% of my purchase price if I wanted to sell them.  Consumer glass are essentially throw-aways.

Damon and I debate this, but for me - zoom lenses make more sense.  They are slightly less sharp at both extremes than a fixed focal (prime) lens, but for a $1,700 piece of glass are way more versatile than fixed glass.  The downside of superfast glass is that if you DO shoot at 1.4/1.8, up close, your DOF is gonna be really small.  The DRebel/10D 7 point AF is, err, way less than accurate (I always shot my 10D center point only), the 20D's 9 point is somewhat better - but even at 2.8 with my lenses working in available light, the DOF falloff is noticable, and if you have to shoot wide-open all the time, it gets even more so (plus most lenses are sharpest 2 stops down from thier wide-open).

Canon (and everyone else) is going to have to pull some "rabbits out of the hat" with glass in the future, as the 8MP & higher sensors are already "out-resolving" the current glass (especially the non-L stuff), and magnifying thier shortcomings well past the point of "noticability".  There's alot of shit I never noticed with film, that I noticed with the 10D and more so with the MarkII, and I'm looking to get into the 16MP 1Ds MarkII sometime mid-next-year (after I get the wife "past" the White Lightning studio setup I "need" to get).

Point(s) being - (a) most of us are going to upgrade our camera bodies to higher resolution.  (b) for $$ to versatility, zooms are a sounder investment (though an 80mm prime is quite useful also) (c) for "investment purposes" (because equipment purchases really are an investment unless you're independantly wealthy) L glass is going to give you better results and a better return.  (d) if f:2.8 is too shallow to shoot close-up, 1.8 is going to be 2X as shallow.

I'm not calling anyone else's opinion "wrong", just putting my $.02 in...

Rick
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Canon 1Ds MarkII - 16-35/2.8L - 24-70/2.8L - 70-200/2.8L IS - 180/f:3.5 Macro - 550EX Flash


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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Lense Question for Canon Digital Rebel
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2004, 08:56:31 AM »
Adam-

as a rule of thumb on non-IS lenses, to avoid camera shake you need to set a shutter spped roughly the inverse of the focal length because camera shake gets exaggerated by longer focal lengths.  so if you are shooting with a 50mm lens, you need a shutter speed of either 1/45 or 1/60.  on a 200mm lens, you need a shutter speed of 1/200 to avoid blur from camera shake.  the canon IS system will get you 1-2 stops of correction.  so at 200mm, you may be able to shoot at 1/90 or 1/125 with the IS engaged.  however, your aperture at 200mm is likely to be f5.6 on that lens.  at f5.6, 1/90, the sensor is not getting anywhere near enough light to properly expose the shot.  I believe Rick shoots his IS 70-200 with a custom function that keeps the shutter speed at at least 1/90 or 1/60 (not sure which).  and i believe he still shoots between ISO400 and 800 depending.  the lens he is using is constant f2.8 which means it allows 4 times as much light to reach the sensor as the f5.6 will.  at f5.6,there is simply not enough light entering the camera to properly expose the shot.  shooting at ISO1600 will get you close, but i think the noise will be unbearable, considering you'd probably have to do some exposure compensation in post.  all this is before you even evaluate how sharp that specific lens is wide open. 

I still believe that primes are the way to go if you are on a budget.  the only zoom option is the 70-200 IS (which Rick and jonny have).  with a price tag rivalling that of a used car, it's not likely to be feasible.  keep in mind that at 6mpix on the dreb, you have a good bit of cropping room.  so even if you can't get all that close, with an 85/1.8 or the 100/f2, you can crop out a good bit and with some sharpening practice still have very very nice 8x10s. 

Rick's points are well made.  He has much more experience in this stuff than I do.  He is no doubt right that the zooms are more versatile than primes.  but as a cost/benefit analysis, i personally think you can get more for your $$ by going prime.  for the price of the 70-200 IS, you can get the 50/1.8, the 85/1.8, the 100/f2 and the 135/f2.  the consumer glass certainly doesn't hold its value as well as the L glass, but you can still resell it for a good price if its well cared for.  each of those 4 primes I listed are constantly being bought and sold used at fredmiranda.com.  the consumer glass typically gets about 65% of its new value or so, while the L glass will get 80-90% of its new value.  that being said, if you buy used from a trusted seller, you are likely to be able to get close to all of your money back.  it's pretty easy to experiment with a lens for a while and see what you think.  there is no perfect lens (i think Rick would agree with that).  so it's about finding what you think will be the best compromise for your $$.  for me, I'm going with primes for concert shooting.  overall, i have 2 primes (50, 1.4, 135/f2) and 2 zooms (24-70/f2.8 and 70-200/f4).  of these, only the 70-200 is not usable for concerts. 

and i totally agree with rick about the AF of the 10d/dreb, especially in low-light.  I only use AF with the center pont and recompose or MF in low-light.

sorry for the long response, i hope it helps.

jpschust

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Re: Lense Question for Canon Digital Rebel
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2004, 10:56:49 AM »
damon's right on this one.  there are some tamron zooms out there that are decent for the money, but if it were up to me in your position id probably go primes.  a nice 50 would serve you quite well i think you will find.  I have a thing for shorter primes (35, 50 etc) as they force you to interact with your subject.  there is a noticable difference in portraiture and even concert shots when you have the photographer way far away versus really close. 

this is beyond sharpness that i am talking about, this is about capturing the essence of the moment.

 

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