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Author Topic: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool  (Read 15314 times)

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RebelRebel

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Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« on: November 01, 2007, 11:25:00 PM »
http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/supercharger/diagnostics.html

it is also available as a download-able ZIP Archive


The gentleman that is building my new speakers sent it to me perhaps to quiet down my barrage of questions, at any rate..I found it interesting. Perhaps I am alone in my asessment. :P


Offline Evil Taper

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Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2007, 01:10:53 AM »
What are you having built and why?
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RebelRebel

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Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2007, 02:57:15 AM »
What are you having built and why?

A Line-Array System comprised of 1 Bohlender Graebener Ribbon Driver(75") per channel to Cover High Frequencies, 6 {10") Peerless Drivers Per Channel for the Mid-Bass Frequencies, and 2 (15") SEAS woofers per channel to handle the low-bass . Each section will be driven by a seperate amp(or set of amps) / all will be routed through a crossover network (many options there as far as crossover units go)to get integrated/optimized into my  room.

Why?? Well, wife, daughter and I just built a new house, and my wife has given me a good amount of room to work with. :) It is my first "dedicated" audio-only(and Teddy only!) room, so I wanted something unique and really HQ. My friend Mike Morgan made me aware of the Mr. Perazella's  work, and suggested that I give him a call. I did, and well, thats that.I Look forward to getting them. I am going up to MD to talk shop with him again and take some more material to play(to determine if more subs / mid-bass or less of anything would work out better), so if anyone from the board is from MD and wants to go with me, id love to have the company.








« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 02:58:56 AM by Teddy »

Offline Evil Taper

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Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2007, 03:06:36 AM »
Those are some impressive bass traps there buddy. ;D  Sounds like a pretty sweet setup.  What is your amplification setup going to be for this crazy speaker array?
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RebelRebel

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Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2007, 03:19:00 AM »
YEah, those ribbons are huge..Mine will be a touch shorter than those, but still large. I am not really sure on the amp side of things, other than to say that unless tube technology gets a lot cheaper before now and the time that I get them...SS it is. I am keeping my mastersound Due Venti(tube integrated) but just cannot afford to spend a disproportionate amount of money to get the amount of juiice that I am going to need. (around 150-200w minimum per section) Right now, it is anyone's guess. know of any high power, musical solid state amps, I am all ears!(and those two words arent mutually exlusive, damnit!  :P )




Those are some impressive bass traps there buddy. ;D  Sounds like a pretty sweet setup.  What is your amplification setup going to be for this crazy speaker array?

Offline Evil Taper

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Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2007, 03:36:48 AM »
Bryston makes some sick ass solid state amps, high power too.  How flat are the frequency response graphs looking?  (I'm assuming the builder is using speaker design software like I used to make my sub box)
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Offline MattD

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Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2007, 06:34:07 AM »
Interesting? More like bullshit. Maximum level at listening position has absolutely nothing to do with quality.
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Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2007, 07:27:08 AM »
Odyssey Stratos.
:)

Offline Frank in JC

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Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2007, 07:53:57 AM »
Interesting? More like bullshit. Maximum level at listening position has absolutely nothing to do with quality.

They're just talking about dynamic range, which indeed is an aspect of a system's "quality."  Of course dynamic range isn't everything, just look at vinyl.


As far as amplification suggestions: class-D.  Why fart around with push-pull, class-AB?



« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 08:00:29 AM by Frank in JC »
Favorite generic quote from Archive.org:
"This recording is SICK--it's almost as good as a soundboard!"

Offline Evil Taper

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Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2007, 04:44:47 PM »
Plus music sounds better louder, DUH.
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Offline BC

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Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2007, 06:59:18 PM »
Interesting? More like bullshit. Maximum level at listening position has absolutely nothing to do with quality.


I think the idea behind this extremely simplified graph is to show that reproducing realistic concert volumes at home with low distortion levels (i.e. high quality) using speakers of conventional sensitivity (not sure what sensitivity speaker they are assuming in this calculation) can require significant amounts of power.

(edited to mention speaker sensitivity)

(hence the reason for their new "supercharger" amp.)
http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/supercharger

review and measurements here, looks like a very solid piece of gear:
http://stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/907mf/


« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 07:16:30 PM by BC »
In: DPA4022>V3>Microtracker/D8

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Offline Tim

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Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2007, 07:09:47 PM »
Not all power is created equal. You can get great volume with lower watts, it depends on the design.

What about super low power SET amps with high-efficiency speakers? I'm not sure how loud they can get but many swear by that combo.

paging Chris Evans
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Offline Evil Taper

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Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2007, 01:37:40 AM »
It's really basic:

Fletcher Munson curve states that with increase in volume frequency response flattens for human ears, IE better low end and mid.  Look it up if you don't believe me.

Speaker efficiency = the volume in dB of a speaker measured from 1 meter away when 1 watt of power is driving the speaker.  Higher efficiency speakers take less power to reach higher volumes, which means that less amplification gain is taking place to achieve the same volume as a less efficient speaker.  A 3dB increase in volume is equal to a doubling of volume, so for every 3dB increase twice as much amplification is taking place via the amplifier.

So why use an ultra high powered amp?  A high power amp is capable of outputing a very powerful signal with minimal effort which means the amplifier itself is running at near perfect efficiency aka SUPER CLEAN SIGNAL.  The more power you drive a speaker with the better it will sound, even at low volumes.  The speaker itself has to do less work to output a loud volume when driven with a super bad ass amp, plain and simple.

This is science, not voodoo.  There's a reason gear with incredible specs is so damn expensive, the reason is incredible sound quality.
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Offline guysonic

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Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2007, 08:38:05 AM »
The System Diagnostic tool seems quite accurate from my experience with using dynaudio speakers with 93-94 dB sensitivity.  I wish I had something like this 28 years ago when I built my V5 monitor system.  AND, it really can pay in pure pleasure to invest in very high clean power if you want 'most live realistic' sound, if your speakers can handle the peaks.

Here's my experience with power and speaker sensitivity.  Personally couldn't afford the high end stuff, so I designed and built my own bi-amped two way systems and later added subs in version 5 after 25 years of building different custom systems.

Description of version 5 system:

Stereo bi-amped speakers with dynaudio 8" and soft dome tweeters each capable of handling 1000 watt musical peaks.  These driven directly connected by amplifiers (bolted to back of 8" sealed type enclosures) of 450 watt RMS for each 8" and 250 watt RMS for each tweeter.  Amps were connected directly to electronic 18dB/octave 3 pole butterworth crossover frequency of 2500 Hz.  8" speakers mounted in ceramic sealed enclosures, and tweeter mounted in 15 pound cement block on top of 8" enclosure and time-aligned.

Sub woofers were 12" dynaudio types, used 4 of these each inside sealed ceramic enclosure weighing -125 pounds each; NOTE: ceramic is absolutely rigid as NOT to flex with intense internal pressure.  Subs were driven by stereo 2250 watt per channel custom amp (as were all the speaker amps were custom)

Sub amps were driven by special 100 Hz crossover, with variable bass equalizer so power increased EXACTLY as 12 dB/octave low frequency output of subs decreased resulting in 'flat to 15 cycle' system response. This really made the largest pipe organ recordings come alive; like you could feel the peddle pressure changes in some recordings. It also made these speaker's voice coils vulnerable to burning out, but that's another story

TOTAL SYSTEM POWER: 4500+2x450+2x250 = ~6000 RMS electrical watts = >125 dB SPL ACOUSTIC OUTPUT(measured at 6 feet).  System proved it could play all day at near this maximum level without failures, or causing deafness (read below)!

Output was so clean at 120+ dB SPL output that some listeners asked if it could be played any louder!  Only when they asked, they could NOT hear themselves speaking, or any reply because the music was VERY, VERY, VERY LOUD, but so very clean they couldn't hear ANY of the usual distortion indicating that a system was 'REALLY CRANKED UP TO BE VERY LOUD.'

Many have commented that after going to practically all the high-end audiophile shows and CES events for decades, they have NEVER experienced anything nearly so clean and powerful like this home built system

The point is, the System Diagnostic is a useful tool to better know that investing in power, and the speakers that can cleanly handle the musical energy peaks CAN BE WELL WORTH THE INVESTMENT for the return in pure listening audio fun in your own home-space that equals or exceeds the live music experience.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 09:13:48 AM by guysonic »
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Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

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Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2007, 10:12:16 AM »
know of any high power, musical solid state amps

conrad johnson MF2300A.



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