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Author Topic: Finished Project: Building My Monaural Playback System  (Read 17979 times)

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mfrench

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Re: Building My Monaural Playback System
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2010, 09:17:54 PM »
Lee,

I did some researching today trying to figure this tonearm pickup out.  Its an electronic coil pickup for steel needles phonographs and early amplifiers, from Britain - we know that for sure. Its "headshell" rotates upward for needle changing.
I knew nothing about it, except that it was a really early electronic pickup, and what i've gleaned from a website that I tracked down. I searched the web - not much out there, but I did find this site:
http://www.normanfield.com/pickups.htm
Mine is discussed in topic #5 & #6 on this page^


Its said to be early 30's, and is of bakelite and in good shape. It put out a signal to my DMM, but I have not tried it for a real run yet. And I will!!... But I have to figure out an adaptor as I don't want to cut off the OE 1/4" plug. I have an old TRS connect around here somewhere that I can sacrifice for the effort.
It seems like a bit of a rare find, and is certainly early playback electronics. There is very little information out there on it.  I think its pretty cool bit of audio-deco from the art deco period.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 09:20:12 PM by m0k3 »

Offline mike1061

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Re: Building My Monaural Playback System
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2010, 10:21:39 PM »
Which arm, Mike, the original arm?

Not the original one. I think I remember you building a TT with 3 tone arms, and I thought one was for mono.
Thanks Mike

mfrench

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Re: Building My Monaural Playback System
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2010, 10:30:57 PM »
That table was a two arm table. Then I got creative and assembled some garage junk, and made a tonearm that I ran from the side of it, as an outboard add-on, third arm.
That deck is still in rotation, and regular use in the main stereo. I took that third arm away, as I'd run out of room for it.
this table:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/MokePics2/Lenco%20L-75%20Project/IMG_5492JPG-1-1.jpg

This antique console project is dedicated to mono playback across the spectrum of era's of pressed music. If there is enough room, I might just add this antique arm back into this console build, just for old times sake, and a unique conversation piece, and for playing the really trashed shellac on. Time will tell; early ciphering stages still in play.
I've moved towards a thought of using glass tile, trimmed in dark soapstone, as my amplifier infill area. Then putting a lamp inside the cabinet for the warm radio tube glow effect to pass through the glass tile.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 10:33:41 PM by m0k3 »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Building My Monaural Playback System
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2010, 04:54:20 PM »
Thanks for the link. I love the old tech. Beautiful things from bygone eras. Pretty amazing to think that this is basically the same as a 'modern' moving coil cartridge that has been highly optimized, miniaturized and has double the mechanical and electrical circuitry for stereo.  This one is conceptually the same but built on a more massive scale with a big horseshoe magnet, coils and half the works.  Technically far more crude, but built to a much higher visual esthetic than most of the pickups (and everything else) to follow in future decades. Cool how the head rotates for steel needle replacement.  Many of those old tables had built-in needle cups near the arm to hold spares.

Side story- There is an uninhabited island South of here in the FL Keys which is now a State Park and is accessible only by boat.  Back in my high-school days we used to sneak out there by canoe, hobie-cat, or simply by wading across the sea-grass flats at low tide to stealth camp overnight.  The reason it was preserved as a park was that 150 years ago or so an eclectic botanist established an outpost and moved his family there, in a venture to grow all manor of super spiky Land of the Lost seeming exotic plants.  Some of them are simply huge thorn bushes, others look like giant oversize aloe and agave succulents that stand several stories tall. His primary goal was to develop 'living fence' impenetrable defenses, but apparently the most interested customer was Tomas Edison, exploring use of some of the huge, super hard and sharp spikes as phonograph needles.  Unfortunately, the entire settlement was wiped out by a Seminole massacre and the idea was abandoned, though many of the plants still grow there to this day.  An exotic tropical needle farm!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

mfrench

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Re: Building My Monaural Playback System
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2010, 05:05:35 PM »
I've heard of agave needles before. Maybe a connection?

I've been thinking about the tt and motor.  I like tinkering, and might look towards at least a lube job for it, if not a slow careful disassembly (spring mechanisms worry me. They can take you out if they come blasting out under pressure).
At any rate,... I might try to clean it up a bit, and get it running. Then mount it in a clear acrylic display case with an output jack, so that it can be plugged into the system to play beat to crap charity shop 78's
To me, watching the mechanisms is far more intriguing than the record destruction. I think it would just be cool in a mechanical display box that can be plugged in if desired.

Early country sounds really cool through this thing, natural. Chet Atkins was to die for coming through it.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Building My Monaural Playback System
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2010, 05:21:04 PM »
..To me, watching the mechanisms is far more intriguing than the record destruction. I think it would just be cool in a mechanical display box that can be plugged in if desired.

Early country sounds really cool through this thing, natural. Chet Atkins was to die for coming through it.

I hear you on watching the mechanism, maybe a potential cleaner spinner?

I will never forget hearing really old 78's- early country, old blues, Jelly Roll Morton stuff, classical operatic material- played on a friends working fully mechanical machine with integrated horn in the cabinet over 20 years ago.  It blew me away with the quality of the vocal timbre range.

I like the glass tile idea, the escaping glow.. plus glass tile is so Deco it's right in place even when the thing is off.

I'd guess the wood glue stiffens the paper somewhat everywhere except the surround.  It would also increase the mass of the cone somewhat, which lowers the resonant frequency, though I’m not sure the exact effect that has.  I’ve heard of tuning bass  woofers with small bits of clay in the dust cap in older designs.  The wood glue coating would certainly fix the rip effectively.



On the transformer-
Hooked to the speaker output of a modern amplifier that transformer acts as an attenuator, but it isn't meant to be, and didn’t serve that function in it’s original implementation.  Instead, it 'transforms' the native high-voltage / low-current output of the tube amplifier to a lower-voltage, higher-current signal that is appropriate for driving the speaker coil. Most audio tube amplifiers have their output transformer built-in to the amplifier chassis, and it has to be there if the amp and speaker aren’t designed together as an inseparable unit (some exotic transformer-less designs excepted).  It is unusual that your cabinet has the transformer built onto the speaker instead, but since this was designed and sold only as an integrated console, it doesn’t really matter where the transformer was mounted.. except that someone working on it could more easily get a nasty shock if they didn’t know what they were doing and electrical standards were a bit more laissez-faire back then.

The reason it acts as an attenuator is that it is transforming the already lower voltage output of your modern amp to a still lower voltage, so the effect is like turning down the volume knob.

The only time similar transformers are attached to dynamic speakers these days is for distributed audio systems where there are many, many speakers connected together but far apart.  Think Musak piped through a department store.  Because the cable runs are so long, installers would need to use expensive low gauge wire which would still have unacceptably high signal losses, or lots of individual amps, so instead they run thin speaker wire and send far lower current but 70V peaks, and transform that down at each speaker (each point of use) to what you would see at a normal audio amplifier speaker terminal.  Westinghouse’s AC power distribution system ultimately won out over Edison’s DC based power system for the same reason: Efficient power distribution over long distances without as much loss, made possible by transformers that change the voltage/current relationship and step down the high transmission voltage as it get to the point of use.

Electrostatic speakers often have input transformers on them for the opposite reason.  Electrostatic operation requires very high voltage potentials but minimal current, so they use transformers at their inputs wired ‘the other way’ so as to transform the low-voltage but high-current output of the audio amplifier to the several hundred volts that the electrostatic needs to operate.  Years ago, Stax electrostatic headphones shipped with a transformer box so you could use them with any amplifier, not just the dedicated Stax amps.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 05:24:45 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

mfrench

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Re: Building My Monaural Playback System
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2010, 05:39:22 PM »
WOW!
Thanks, Lee. Electronics are not my specialty. It was striking me as so odd that it had the xformer there. Your explanation went a long way towards answering that!
I should post a pic of the bottom of the amp. Its full of really cool 'stuff" (refers back to lack of electronics knowledge).
You might enjoy that view.  I've gotta reduce it first.

#498 is under-view; #499 is a potentiometer (I'm assuming); 501, external above view
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 05:46:05 PM by m0k3 »

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Re: Building My Monaural Playback System
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2010, 05:58:47 PM »
Neato.

I only know the big picture stuff about the electronics, not the real specifics like some here.  Although it looks like a mess, that thing appears pretty simple, as most old tube gear is.  I see wire wound resistors, transformers, capacitors, old wire, potentiometers.  All standard electronic components, though some of them are 1000x larger than the tiny surface mount device (SMD) equivalents used in suff like our flash recorders today.

Don't plug it in and go poking around!
..or let someone's baby lick it (lead).
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

mfrench

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Re: Building My Monaural Playback System
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2010, 06:10:09 PM »
could i fix it with my dremel?

I know to leave that thing far from being plugged in. It sort of scares me; really scares me.
I left it within view of the front window, and Sarge suggested that it might be mistaken for a bomb.

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Re: Building My Monaural Playback System
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2010, 07:22:31 PM »
I think you can fix anything with a dremel.. as long as you keep an open ended concept of 'fixed'.

You got me thinking about all this stuff, thanks, I like thinking about this stuff..

On resonant cabinet speaker designs-
Resonance is simply stored energy. Resonant energy can be stored in a vibrating cabinet, driver parts, other components, or in air moving in and out of the cabinet itself.  Most of those resonances are bad in reproduction terms, and much engineering has gone into finding and eliminating or hiding them.  Of course some will point out that cool sounding euphonic resonances in old machines are a specific exception because they impart an attractive ‘personality’ which is a large part of the whole attraction of this kind of old gear.  Certainly nothing wrong with that; it's sometimes the entire draw to begin with.

However, resonance can also purposefully introduced for legitimate engineering reasons in an effort to extend the perceived bass response. Any speaker with a port is a resonant design.  Such a speaker extends it’s perceived low frequency range by using the stored energy of the port’s resonance to reinforce it’s output in the region where the speaker would be rolling-off it’s output if mounted in a ‘rigid’, sealed box.  Using a port is a design choice to trade a slightly deeper usable response for a steeper roll-off slope and less time accuracy (since it takes time for the energy to be stored and released).  It’s mostly popular as a way of either getting a bit deeper bass output from a smaller enclosure, or simply more low frequency output than a speaker could normally make in a smaller enclosure.  In that sense, almost all speakers today are resonant designs.  It’s not money for nothing, the speaker must be making usable output down there already, and as noted there are design tradeoffs in reduced time accuracy and potential problems with crossover integration to other speakers. I sort of have a soft spot for sealed speakers which aren’t outdated tech as much as they are currently out of style.  My current speakers have have holes in them (ports) though and they like to drink a decent amount of juice.

Some of those very efficient speakers are fantastic and highly dynamic, but they usually need to be pretty large, and often use horns, to achieve that high efficiency along with a wide frequency range. 

Anyway just talking shop. Play around with the bracing, the baffle inside, get it sounding good, but don't worrry about resonant designs because they may be a 'new trend' with speaker designers, not that you were anyway.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Building My Monaural Playback System
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2010, 07:42:22 PM »
I know what you mean about mono sometimes sounding odd, sort of stereoized, over two speakers.  I'm reading Geoff Emerick's book on recording the Beatles (their primary engineer at EMI's Abbey Road facility) and I keep refering to the stereo and mono re-releases that came out a few years back to listen for the stuff he mentions.  He puts far more emphasis on all the mono releases, which they all worked long and hard at, than the quick slapdash stereo versions which no one spent much time on.  Comparing the re-releases isn't really fair, since the stereo ones have been re-mastered quite well and are vastly improved by it in my opinion, but I finally started listening to the mono versions on one speaker and that made a big difference (as do headphones).

In a similar vein, I always chuckle when people say that spaced mono stereo recordings aren't very mono compatible because of phase combing.  Well sure, that's what happens if you mix the two channels together, but unless that is being done automatically like in an old TV or something, why mix them when you already have two omnidirectional mono recordings, made simultaneously, a few feet apart from each other?

[edit- appologies for the misspelled surname Mr Emerick]
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 11:39:28 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

mfrench

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Re: Building My Monaural Playback System
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2010, 09:50:44 PM »
Lee,

I'm going to post about resonant cabinets in the More Watts Isn't Better thread - convoluted thread criss-crossing here!
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=139154.msg1801642#new
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 10:01:45 PM by m0k3 »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Building My Monaural Playback System
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2010, 11:50:13 AM »
Good, my mind was getting cross-posted!

I'll just add here (because it's more about outdated old-tech speakers than anything anyone is doing today) that I found an early 60's Hammond Organ an Leslie speaker a few years ago at a junk shop and brought it home.  The leslie amp looks almost exactly like your old tube thing.  In researching it, I found that the really old speakers in these organs used an electro-magnet instead of a permanent magnet for the speaker driver.  I guess that the magnetic matrials were so poor in the early days that it made more sense to use an electric current through a coil on an iron core to create the speaker magnet, than using a permanet one.  Imagine having to power up the speaker itself, regardless of amp, to get any sound.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

mfrench

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Re: Building My Monaural Playback System
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2010, 01:45:02 PM »
hmmmm,... I have had some thoughts about organs and this amp and speaker pairing. That makes two of us.
My late father-in-law was a master degree'd electrical engn'r from the time of tubes, and was a master at tube design. I wish to god I'd learned from him, but, I didn't.
At any rate,... he had an organ with a Leslie, both mechanical and electronic versions. His organ amp looked very similar to this amp, exception to the radio electronics. I've been struck by this since I first saw it, and agree with you on that (but really know nothing about it technically).

Offline cheshirecat

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Re: Building My Monaural Playback System
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2010, 01:10:53 PM »
It looks like a fairly standard amp that you have there.  What is the tube lineup?  You'll know more once you have that information.

Typically you'll have a power transformer that supplies the audio circuit and bias ciruit through pre-amp tubes then power tubes and finally through an output transformer.

SB2 / Rega P1 > Modified Dynaco PAS2 > Modified Dynaco MK-IV monoblocks> Axiom M22 v2

 

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