Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool  (Read 15317 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

RebelRebel

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2007, 11:29:33 AM »
My Mastersound Due Venti (20 w pc, Single Ended)really sings with the right loudspeakers. Unfortunately, I dont have the right ones yet. I have never heard a sound so euphonic and rich as I have heard from this amp.


Not all power is created equal. You can get great volume with lower watts, it depends on the design.

What about super low power SET amps with high-efficiency speakers? I'm not sure how loud they can get but many swear by that combo.

paging Chris Evans

RebelRebel

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2007, 11:32:23 AM »
Thanks much, Moke and Micheal. Bookmarked. Great to have help sorting through all the offerings.


know of any high power, musical solid state amps

http://www.pliniusaudio.com/products/sareference.asp






Offline som

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 852
  • Gender: Male
Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2007, 09:16:00 AM »
That slide doesn't go down to 4.8 watts, what good is it??? ;)


+T on the upcoming speakers and audio room! I remember you posting awhile back about having a listening room at your parent's house, and slipping off each evening for an hour or two. Good luck getting that much quality, uninterrupted listening time without leaving the house!

AT ES943/C's > Church Audio ST-9100 > iRiver H100 (Rockboxed)

cshepherd

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2007, 11:36:39 AM »
That slide doesn't go down to 4.8 watts, what good is it??? ;)

Quoted For Truth

RebelRebel

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2007, 11:52:42 AM »
Thanks much. Not leaving my wife and daughter at home to go listen to a few albums will be very nice. 
That slide doesn't go down to 4.8 watts, what good is it??? ;)


+T on the upcoming speakers and audio room! I remember you posting awhile back about having a listening room at your parent's house, and slipping off each evening for an hour or two. Good luck getting that much quality, uninterrupted listening time without leaving the house!



Offline Tim

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 32913
  • Gender: Male
Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2007, 01:33:04 PM »
It's really basic:

Fletcher Munson curve states that with increase in volume frequency response flattens for human ears, IE better low end and mid.  Look it up if you don't believe me.

Speaker efficiency = the volume in dB of a speaker measured from 1 meter away when 1 watt of power is driving the speaker.  Higher efficiency speakers take less power to reach higher volumes, which means that less amplification gain is taking place to achieve the same volume as a less efficient speaker.  A 3dB increase in volume is equal to a doubling of volume, so for every 3dB increase twice as much amplification is taking place via the amplifier.

So why use an ultra high powered amp?  A high power amp is capable of outputing a very powerful signal with minimal effort which means the amplifier itself is running at near perfect efficiency aka SUPER CLEAN SIGNAL.  The more power you drive a speaker with the better it will sound, even at low volumes.  The speaker itself has to do less work to output a loud volume when driven with a super bad ass amp, plain and simple.

This is science, not voodoo.  There's a reason gear with incredible specs is so damn expensive, the reason is incredible sound quality.

Who said anything about voodoo? I am well aware of all of the science. However sticking strictly to science and specs when it comes to audio gear is pretty silly imo. The key is, how does it sound? That is a highly subjective judgment of sound. Specs and science are great, but if it sounds like crap it sounds like crap.

The need to harp on knowledge of science and specs to prove that gear sounds good amuses me. I think we all understand the underlying theories, I just don't think we need to be trapped by those theories or specs on a sheet of paper.

As Doug Oade used to say, use your ears.
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline Evil Taper

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2771
  • Gender: Male
  • Going pro...no time for taping now
Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2007, 03:54:57 PM »
Very true.  All the things that us rock n roll listeners love about gear, IE tube and transformers, cause distortions and imperfections in the signal in some way that sounds good to us.  I've been reading alot lately about amps and opamps vs transformers vs tubes and all this stuff and the end conclusion is always that the opamp based gear doesn't sound as pleasant as the old school designs.  The opamps have the ability to create near theoretically perfect performance but at the same time something gets lost in the translation.  It's wild how a low power tube amp can outperform a massive mosfet power amp just because of tonality and efficiency.  That's where the math just doesn't seem to add up.  Anyone have pictures of the guts of a super high power discrete power amp?

For the record I'm not attempting to talk down to anyone, I'm just trying to explain things in a way that someone who doesn't have a clue about the subject will be able to understand it.  No sword fighting.
Really not very evil at all now...

Offline guysonic

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1366
  • WISDOM FOR ALL TIMES
    • Sonic Studios DSM Stereo-Surround Microphone Systems
Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2007, 04:04:25 PM »
Fletcher-Munson curve was created many, many years ago and was mostly accepted, and disputed by some.  I once built a preamp that operated the changing characteristics of this curve as the volume was turned up/down.  And this to my ears seemed to more or less work as predicted.

Very power amps are a benefit with uncompressed recordings, especially if used with speakers designed to cleanly handle dynamic musical peaks.  A solo grand piano's need for such power with usual speaker efficiency was once determined to be ~250 watts peak electrical energy from the amplifier if full fidelity of this instrument was to be delivered to the listener.

Even though the System Diagnostic Tool has somewhat limited range, from my Version 5 powered monitor system experience with using a 93 dB sensitivity tweeter directly driven by a 250 watt amp and total SPL output measurement with of all speakers operating seems to more or less correlate with SPL output predicted by the diagnostic tool.

It may be that total power output ability of an amplifier is most important spec to know in real terms.  Amp distortion of these amps measured into pure resistance, and not into complex speaker crossover networks is suspect to not tell much useful information other than ideal circumstance distortion characteristics. 

Different amps do have different complex load characteristic distortions, and the passive crossovers normally found in 2-3-4 way speakers present very complex drive conditions.  So many amps with high power and low distortion specs do not sound as good as others that may handle these varying speaker loads much better.  Maybe amplifier peak current output, phase response over frequency, and damping factor is more important to note under these real-world crossover network load conditions. 

For this reason, directly connecting the power amplifier to the speakers without any type of interfering crossover network, and using many amps in a system driven with electronic crossovers before the amps has great advantage for getting consistently clean very low distortion amp-speaker performance almost regardless of make of amp if having sufficient power/distortion ratings for the loudness desired.

As with all systems, the quality of the speaker drivers, how they are enclosed in a cabinet, and how those speakers are positioned in a room is the major contributor, and is mostly what will be heard in terms of audio quality.
"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

DSM HRTF STEREO-SURROUND RECORDING SYSTEMS WEBSITE: http://www.sonicstudios.com

Offline Chilly Brioschi

  • The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15433
  • Gender: Male
  • Waiting for the next cladogenetic event, or Godot
    • Oceana North America
Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2007, 10:13:11 AM »
I'm always amazed when I do a power calculation on the output side of an amp.
It isn't unusual for me to be listening with less than 5 watts average power per channel, often much less.
And this is at a room-filling level with "rock" program material.

It isn't so much a question of how much headroom that the PA has.
It seems to be more of what happens during transient peaks.
Having an amp that can "service" these peaks is fine, but what effect does having the amp rapidly increase its output current do to the entirety of the sound.
Transient response and shaping is a serious consideration.

And why even beyond that, why do very fast, very powerful amps sound different?
"Peace is for everyone"
        - Norah Jones

"Music is the drug that won't kill you"
         - Fran Lebowitz

Offline Tim

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 32913
  • Gender: Male
Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2007, 12:18:03 PM »
Very true.  All the things that us rock n roll listeners love about gear, IE tube and transformers, cause distortions and imperfections in the signal in some way that sounds good to us.  I've been reading alot lately about amps and opamps vs transformers vs tubes and all this stuff and the end conclusion is always that the opamp based gear doesn't sound as pleasant as the old school designs.  The opamps have the ability to create near theoretically perfect performance but at the same time something gets lost in the translation.  It's wild how a low power tube amp can outperform a massive mosfet power amp just because of tonality and efficiency.  That's where the math just doesn't seem to add up.  Anyone have pictures of the guts of a super high power discrete power amp?

For the record I'm not attempting to talk down to anyone, I'm just trying to explain things in a way that someone who doesn't have a clue about the subject will be able to understand it.  No sword fighting.

+T

just saw this, sorry for getting fired up ;D
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline Eigenklang

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 58
Re: Musical Fidelity System Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2007, 08:19:15 AM »

Until now I was able to play around with a lot of hifi & highend stuff. Most of these high power amps combined with inefficient speakers just sounded like shit to my ears. The big deal is to find a good speaker with high effiency that can be driven by a simple 20...50 W amp.

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.089 seconds with 40 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF