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Author Topic: how to record live concerts that produce Sounboard quality audio  (Read 8719 times)

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Offline Chillin2611

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Hello Everyone, I am new to trying to learn how to tape live concerts. I do not know where to begin. I was on Youtube ( Reference on youtube: User is Jontebus and his videos are awesome specifically Ghost @ Lisebergshallen, Gothenburg, Sweden - 2015-11-11) this user and I were chatting and he said he uses SHURE microphones to get that awesome sound but he never told me which model he uses. He referenced me to this dialogue page so here I am. My goal is to make an audience recording of a live concert with excellent audio sound. I don't know what kind of recorder to buy and I don't know what kind of microphones to use. I have read about Sony PCM-10 I see that recorder referenced many times from this site. I am a step by step learner. The bottom line is I want to learn how to record live concerts that will make and excellent audience recording  can anybody recommend quality microphones and audio recorder. Please and Thank You.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 06:02:48 PM by Chillin2611 »

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: how to record live concerts that produce Sounboard quality audio
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2015, 12:02:04 AM »
"I want to learn how to tape a live concert with studio quality audio sound."

If I could answer that, I wouldn't need the talcum powder...

Seriously, it's a question with many possible answers, depending on what kind of music, where you're recording it, whether you'll be recording in the open or not, your budget, etc. There are lots of existing topics already here comparing different kinds of recorders, mics, and recording technique — you might want to start by reading through those, and then ask questions about anything you're still unclear about.

Offline Chillin2611

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Re: how to record live concerts that produce Sounboard quality audio
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2015, 06:39:06 AM »
Hello, thanks for responding back I did read through some responses and I came up with the Sony PCM 10 for a recorder.  I want something small that does not draw attention but can produce excellent audio. (2) What are the names of some soundboard quality audio microphones that you may know of?   budget is no option , I just need to know what is out there price point range from low to expense that will produce studio audio  quality atleast that would be a starting reference. the kind of music I want to record is loud R&B, Rock, Rap. the venue would be club setting as well as large venue type places.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 06:52:09 AM by Chillin2611 »

Offline aaronji

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Re: how to record live concerts that produce Sounboard quality audio
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2015, 07:57:17 AM »
(2) What are the names of some soundboard quality audio microphones that you may know of?   budget is no option , I just need to know what is out there price point range from low to expense that will produce studio audio  quality atleast that would be a starting reference. the kind of music I want to record is loud R&B, Rock, Rap. the venue would be club setting as well as large venue type places.

The first thing you should do is adjust your expectations a bit.  The most expensive mics in the world, placed in the audience at an arena rock concert, won't sound like a studio or soundboard.  Not necessarily worse, even, just completely different.

If money is no object, you'll certainly be able to spend quite a lot of it on microphones...

Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: how to record live concerts that produce Sounboard quality audio
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2015, 07:58:03 AM »
Hello, thanks for responding back I did read through some responses and I came up with the Sony PCM 10 for a recorder.  I want something small that does not draw attention but can produce excellent audio. (2) What are the names of some soundboard quality audio microphones that you may know of?   budget is no option , I just need to know what is out there price point range from low to expense that will produce studio audio  quality atleast that would be a starting reference. the kind of music I want to record is loud R&B, Rock, Rap. the venue would be club setting as well as large venue type places.

You wont be getting "Soundboard Quality" in any of those scenarios...ever.

You get soundboard quality - by recording from the Soundboard.

Otherwise you'll be making "Audience Recordings" - which many of us prefer.

Thinking English might not be your first language...so maybe you mean something else by "Soundboard quality"?


stevetoney

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Re: how to record live concerts that produce Sounboard quality audio
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2015, 11:36:42 PM »
Lots of coy responses to the 'soundboard quality' statement.  Honestly, the reason for these responses is that tapers generally feel that the best audience recording at a live show sounds better than the best SBD recording.  SBD's are usually very stale and the mix is often bad, but mainly the SBD recording loses the 'feel' of a live show.  My personal opinion is the best sounding live recordings are a matrix between a well mixed SBD and a good sounding AUD. 

But yeah there's so much involved with getting the best quality recordings from the audience.  This has to do mostly with technique and microphone placement...as the saying goes, it's all about location, location, location.  But if you want SBD quality, the most important factor...even more important than the quality of your mics, is getting your mics in the right spot in the venue.  That also means minimizing the audience, without eliminating them altogether.  Mics mounted on your body are usually too close to other audience members and their talking or applause will be too distracting.  So the better solution is to get your microphones several feet above the heads of audience members on a mic stand in order to put the audience sounds into the background of the recording.  There's so much more to talk about mic placement, but that the basics.  As far as high end gear, here's a start for you to consider.

Microphones:
Schoeps Capsules > Schoeps active cables or Custom cables (available from schoepnbox on this board)...most start with a pair of MK4 cardioid cables or perhaps MK4V.  You also can't go wrong starting with MK41 hypercardioid capsules.  The cables and capsules will run you around $2000 USD on the used market.

or

DPA small diaphragm series...such as DPA-4022 (there are currently a used pair in the yard sale for $2500 USD).  These microphones come with the cables integrated with the microphones.

Preamps:
Many to choose from, but most portable battery powered preamps that people prefer on taperssection are no longer in production.  A couple of options for preamps at the low and high end that are currently still in production are...

nbox manufactured by schoepsnbox, the same maker of the cables mentioned earlier.  This is a very small preamp that is ideal for pairing with a Sony M10 recorder.  Around $500 to $550 USD.

Schoeps VMS5U, much larger full featured portable preamp.  $2300 USD.

Recorder:
Many many to choose from.  You need to decide whether you want to use small handheld recorder or a full featured recorder.  The quality of sound you get from either is the same...the more expensive recorders are buying additional features...more channels, etc.  Recorder will cost you anywhere from $200 USD to several thousand. 

Misc gear:
When you budget for your rig, you'll also need to include at lest several hundred additional dollars for items like gear bags, cables, clamps, mic stand, mic mounts, wind screens, rechargeable batteries, and so on.

Leave you wallet at the door.  Many people with high end rigs have more than $10K worth of gear. 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 11:47:00 PM by tonedeaf »

Offline aaronji

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Re: how to record live concerts that produce Sounboard quality audio
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2015, 05:16:42 AM »
DPA small diaphragm series...such as DPA-4022 (there are currently a used pair in the yard sale for $2500 USD).  These microphones come with the cables integrated with the microphones.

If you want to go the DPA route, I would recommend skipping the old compacts in favor of the more recent modular system.  A variety of capsule choices are available; these can be used with several different preamplifiers (including a very small compact model), as well as side- and rear-entry active cables.  And, yeah, leave your wallet at the door...

Offline robeti

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Re: how to record live concerts that produce Sounboard quality audio
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2015, 05:49:42 AM »
Hello Everyone, I am new to trying to learn how to tape live concerts. I do not know where to begin. I was on Youtube ( Reference on youtube: User is Jontebus and his videos are awesome specifically Ghost @ Lisebergshallen, Gothenburg, Sweden - 2015-11-11) this user and I were chatting and he said he uses SHURE microphones to get that awesome sound but he never told me which model he uses. He referenced me to this dialogue page so here I am. My goal is to make an audience recording of a live concert with excellent audio sound. I don't know what kind of recorder to buy and I don't know what kind of microphones to use. I have read about Sony PCM-10 I see that recorder referenced many times from this site. I am a step by step learner. The bottom line is I want to learn how to record live concerts that will make and excellent audience recording  can anybody recommend quality microphones and audio recorder. Please and Thank You.

If you are new to taping I would advice you to buy starters gear first.
Try to tape a couple of shows and see if you like it.

A good rig can be:
recorder : sony m10 / roland r-05
battery box : church audio ugly battery box
mics: - ca-11 / ca-14 cardioid mics.
         - audio technica at853 cardioid mics (make sure these have the 4.7k mod)
       
The church audio route is the cheapest and will give you great results if you know how to use the gear.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=171162.0

If you decide you like taping, you can always upgrade to a more expensive rig. You can sell the budget rig or keep it as a backup.

 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 05:54:06 AM by robeti »
mics schoeps mk22/mk4/mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/o) | ca-11 c/o | ca-14 c
power ca-ubb | ca-9200 | nbob actives > baby nbox | schoeps cmbi (pair)
recorder roland r-05 
video panasonic zs100 | panasonic hdc-sd600 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v | samsung s23 ultra
playback fiio m17 > final d8000

Offline thunderbolt

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Re: how to record live concerts that produce Sounboard quality audio
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2015, 11:54:11 PM »
^^^^^^^^
All good advice, particularly Tone deaf and Robeti.  Read their responses several times through.  Seriously.

backwhereubelong

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Re: how to record live concerts that produce Sounboard quality audio
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2015, 02:48:48 PM »
^^^^^^^^
All good advice, particularly Tone deaf and Robeti.  Read their responses several times through.  Seriously.

+1.  Much more to this than meets the eye.  Taping is NOT for everyone.  Also, you should not expect perfection right out of the box as a loud clapper, talker or wanna-be audience singer is just a few of the problems you'll face.
I've know Jontebus for some time through the Dime-A-Dozen website.  He is VERY skilled and one of the best, so not a bad taper to try and copy for sure.  Good luck.

Offline swordfish

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Re: how to record live concerts that produce Sounboard quality audio
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2015, 04:05:00 AM »
PM sent

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: how to record live concerts that produce Sounboard quality audio
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2015, 10:30:33 AM »
"Soundboard quality" comes from close micing the instruments. Taping as we know it is usually distance micing. Usually when micing the stage for a soundboard mix you are trying to isolate each sound source to cut down on bleed from other sound sources and ambient noise so that you can EQ them, compress them, etc. as needed then blend them into a mix. In distance micing you get a mixture of sound from the PA, sound from the stage itself and sound from the surrounding environment. The short of it is, you will not get "Soundboard quality" from distance micing. But you can get a damn nice recording! And in some ways distance micing is better because it includes all the sounds blended as you heard them at the show (minus any psychoacoustics). Try comparing sbd recordings to aud recordings and often the sbd will sound clean but not right. If it is a sbd from a small club you will get vocals and the kick drum but electric guitars will be down too low in the mix.

Since you are in Sweden you might look for Line Audio CM3 microphones. I have been very happy with mine and they are made in Sweden. Very affordable mics too! They will not plug in directly to the Sony M10 though.
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Offline earmonger

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Re: how to record live concerts that produce Sounboard quality audio
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2015, 01:44:28 PM »
I have to agree with Robeti. Don't throw a huge amount of money at this to start with.

I looked at the Ghost video on Youtube. You can see, when he zooms out, that Jontebus is about 10 rows back. He (or the camera) seems to be slightly above the crowd's heads, and the recording seems to be just a pair of stereo mics. Someone more technical than me can probably tell whether they are directional (cardioid) or omni. 

I've been very happy with the PCM-M10, a battery box and CA-14 and CA-11 omni mics.  Mics (6 inches apart, on a shirt collar or, better, a hat)  to battery box to line-in to happy musical memories. A pretty good replica of what you heard with your ears. They sound as good as  that Jontebus recording.

Many of the fancier mics need extra power (Phantom Power) or have different connectors (like XLR) than the simple 3.5mm stereo mic-in or line-in jacks on the PCM-M10, so make sure you know what each mic requires. If you need to be stealthy, then the simple mic-battery box-recorder setup is more low-profile than mic--preamp/power supply--recorder.

Some people here do more sophisticated setups, like getting a stereo recording out of the soundboard (which means some diplomacy with the sound guy) and mixing that in various proportions with a recording made in the audience.  You need a multichannel recorder (4 or more) and time and skill to mix the recording afterward. The results can be wonderful, but they require a lot of post-processing to add the two sources together. 

Other people make prior arrangements to place mics on stands or railings or other fixed positions at a show. Their recordings can sound more professional because the mics are away from audience noise. Jontebus's camera is obviously hand-held, and maybe his mics are too.

Soundboard recordings by themselves are generally sterile--direct from the instruments and voices, without the warmth of the room. In  a smaller place, like a club, a soundboard recording may not include instruments that are loud enough to be heard in the room without the PA system, like drums. So soundboard is really not the gold standard. If you're in a good spot for your ears with a pair of omni mics, you can get something quite lifelike.

But mics aren't magic. They'll pick up people talking, singing along, ordering a beer, etc. If you have $5000 mics next to someone having a drunken argument during the show, you'll get a hi-fi recording of a drunken argument. Where you are--or where the mics are--in the room can be as crucial to eventual listening enjoyment as the quality of the mics.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 01:56:04 PM by earmonger »

Offline thunderbolt

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Re: how to record live concerts that produce Sounboard quality audio
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2015, 12:12:44 AM »
I know there's a danger of too many stickies, but this is a very pithy thread and would be great for new tapers.

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

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Re: how to record live concerts that produce Sounboard quality audio
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2015, 09:50:08 AM »
> The bottom line is I want to learn how to record live concerts that will make and excellent audience recording

The single most important thing you should learn is to be able hear and know where the sound is excellent. The best equipment in the world won't make a good recording if the sound is awful where you're recording.

Spend lots of time at concerts and listen critically. Do you prefer the sound up front, mid-way back or far back. Do you prefer balcony sound or on the floor? Do you prefer recording at sheds (open air) or in halls. Small clubs, mid-sized theaters, large concert halls? Does the room have a huge bass boom? Do the PA's high frequencies fall off a cliff at 8 KHz when you're off axis? Does the stage's own sound make it out into the front of the hall? Can you hear the 60 Hz hum in the PA? Does the air conditioning system rumble? Can you hear the background noise level of the hall?

Once you learn to hear what's good and what's not, decide on your  budget. Then come back and ask about equipment. There are lots of helpful folks here who are willing to help.
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